LABOUR PLEDGE ON CLUB OWNERSHIP

[BlyBlyBabes 0]

[quote user="paul moy"]

Andy,

Fact. UK manufacturing industry has declined by a higher percentage since 1997 than it ever did in the Thatcher years. Perhaps people should start looking at the current incumbents'' record, especially on pensions, immigration, sleaze, taxes, debt etc. Why does Blair have multiple offshore companies in island tax havens if he pays fair UK tax ? What does he have to hide ?  Surely as a socialist he should be willing to share his money fairly with the underprivileged of his home country, or is he just a hypocrite rather than a ''pretty straight kind of guy''.

[/quote]

Another fact from the BBC today:

 

UK manufacturing grows at 15-year high, says survey

UK manufacturing activity grew at its fastest for 15 years in March, according to a closely-watched survey. The purchasing managers'' index (PMI) rose to 57.2 last month, from 56.5 in February, and was ahead of analysts'' forecasts. It was the best monthly growth figure since October 1994. [;)] OTBC

 

 

 

 

 

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="BlyBlyBabes"][quote user="paul moy"]

Andy,

Fact. UK manufacturing industry has declined by a higher percentage since 1997 than it ever did in the Thatcher years. Perhaps people should start looking at the current incumbents'' record, especially on pensions, immigration, sleaze, taxes, debt etc. Why does Blair have multiple offshore companies in island tax havens if he pays fair UK tax ? What does he have to hide ?  Surely as a socialist he should be willing to share his money fairly with the underprivileged of his home country, or is he just a hypocrite rather than a ''pretty straight kind of guy''.

[/quote]

Another fact from the BBC today:

 

UK manufacturing grows at 15-year high, says survey

UK manufacturing activity grew at its fastest for 15 years in March, according to a closely-watched survey. The purchasing managers'' index (PMI) rose to 57.2 last month, from 56.5 in February, and was ahead of analysts'' forecasts. It was the best monthly growth figure since October 1994. [;)] OTBC

 

 

 

 

 

[/quote]

 

If a football team''s squad had been shrunk from 40 to 20, and we then had a 50% increase we would have 30 players, whereas if we never shrunk it and had just a 10% increase, we would have 44 players. I know what I would rather have.  Lies, damn lies and statistics as they say. [:D]

[BlyBlyBabes 0]

[quote user="paul moy"][quote user="BlyBlyBabes"][quote user="paul moy"]

Andy,

Fact. UK manufacturing industry has declined by a higher percentage since 1997 than it ever did in the Thatcher years. Perhaps people should start looking at the current incumbents'' record, especially on pensions, immigration, sleaze, taxes, debt etc. Why does Blair have multiple offshore companies in island tax havens if he pays fair UK tax ? What does he have to hide ?  Surely as a socialist he should be willing to share his money fairly with the underprivileged of his home country, or is he just a hypocrite rather than a ''pretty straight kind of guy''.

[/quote]

Another fact from the BBC today:

 

UK manufacturing grows at 15-year high, says survey

UK manufacturing activity grew at its fastest for 15 years in March, according to a closely-watched survey. The purchasing managers'' index (PMI) rose to 57.2 last month, from 56.5 in February, and was ahead of analysts'' forecasts. It was the best monthly growth figure since October 1994. [;)] OTBC

[/quote]

If a football team''s squad had been shrunk from 40 to 20, and we then had a 50% increase we would have 30 players, whereas if we never shrunk it and had just a 10% increase, we would have 44 players. I know what I would rather have.  Lies, damn lies and statistics as they say. [:D]

[/quote]

I bet you Delia wouldn''t rather have 44 than 30!!!

That''s an awful lot more Waitrose ads.

So its also in the eye of the behoder, I suppose.

[;)]

OTBC

 

[Badger 0]

I think you need to check some facts...

[quote user="crafty canary"]

Greatest post-war prime minister this country has had. Put the country back on its feet after the disaster of yet another "We know how to spend your money better than you do" Labour government,

[/quote]

... doubled VAT, wasted most of the "one off" bonus of North Sea oil to pay for the millions of unemployed that she created

[quote user="crafty canary"]

defended the freedom of British protected Falklanders against a Fascist bully,

[/quote]

... invited the Fascist wimp (many of whom were her friends btw) to invade by withdrawing the naval protection for the island

[quote user="crafty canary"]

stood up to and whipped the looney left''s pin up boy Scargill

[/quote]

.... destroyed the coal industry for short term political gain leaving us facing an energy crisis in a few years time

[quote user="crafty canary"]

and didn''t sell us out to Brussels.

[/quote]

.... signed the single European Act which saw the greatest transfer of power to Europe of any preceding or subsequent change

[quote user="crafty canary"]

Compare her to Bliar and ''Boom or Bust'' Brown and weep for how we are heading South once again.

[/quote]

...bust, boom, bust Maggie didn’t even have the excuse of a world economic crisis – hers were mainly self-generated

Worst PM since post war Churchill, blinded by loathing and dogma. John Major, who is much derided, did far better and with Ken Clarke’s help managed to put right much of the damage that she created in the country.

Unfortunately for the Tory Party it has taken over 20 years to put right what she did to the party... and it’s still not done. Cameron has to pretend he’s like Blair to win over the voters, whilst also pretending to be like Thatcher to win over the Ultras in the Tory party!

[paul moy 235]

Badger,

In fairness to Thatcher, she inherited massive debts from Labour after they went to the IMF in 1976, and thus she had to raise taxes to fill the black hole that had been their legacy. She turned the country round and the next time Labour came to power in 1997 they inherited a vibrant economy after many quarters of consecutive growth. History is now repeating itself and they have wasted that legacy, whereby the level of debt as a percentage of GDP is almost the same as it was in 1976. Failure to act by whichever government gets power will inevitably mean another visit to the IMF, but regardless it''s pretty certain that VAT will have to rise to at least 20% thanks to Labour. The rate of VAT under Thatcher was incidentally ''only'' 15%. I know which rate I would rather have.

 

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

macdougall''s perm

, just a load of toffs scrambling for the middle ground in the arrempt to get their noses in the trough.   

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Tangy:

what the public school educated members of the current cabinet?  For example, Darling, Harperson and not forgetting Blair.

BTW dont forget the millionaires in the current and former cabinet either, e.g. Dewar RIP., Blair, Darling

 

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

Woman in the Stands 

The last thing we need is for the government to intervene in football. Look at how they''ve cocked up other things.

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The government can''t stop meddling......

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="Mike Reynolds Trust Secretary"]No comment on the politics of the situation but a couple of years ago Andy Burnham, the then Culture Secretary, wrote to the Premier League, Football League and the FA with seven questions the Government wanted answers to which included the role of football clubs in the community so it has been part of this Governments thinking. [/quote]

And football clubs play an active part throught their Football in the community programms.  There is no need for a government to meddle.

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="crafty canary"]

UEFA banned ALL English clubs fro European competition that they had jurisdinction over for a period of 4 years if I remember rightly. This meant that clubs who had yet to qualify for Europe in futre seasons were banned when they did qualify. maggie was magnificent but even she didn''t pretend to see into the future to pick on clubs. You really shouldn''t invent history just because byou don''t like someone. It''s a trick beloved of Binners.
[/quote]

The Binners certainly do like to invent fantasy stories

 

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]

I''m far from any permanent political leaning, but I do remember the state of the country that Thatcher was bequeathed by the thoroughly inept James Callaghan. Do you?

[/quote]

Ah the winter of discontent......unburied bodies, rubbish not collected......

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

Badger

the millions of unemployed that she created

---> its businesses that creates or ceases employment (in response to demand) unless you are talking about the public sector

-------------------------------------------

... destroyed the coal industry for short term political gain leaving us facing an energy crisis in a few years time

---> UK (mainly deep mine) coal production was uneconomic requiring a big state subsidy whereas it was cheaper to buy and ship Australian (mainly from open surface mines) coal.

---> BTW. what energy crisis are you referring to?

----------------------------------------------

...bust, boom, bust Maggie didn’t even have the excuse of a world economic crisis

---> I think you will find that the UK was not the only country to go through recession during that period.

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–  blinded by loathing and dogma.

--> So what was the class war campaign in the Crewe by election about then?

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[Shack Attack 0]

[quote user="paul moy"] Why does Blair have multiple offshore companies in island tax havens if he pays fair UK tax ? What does he have to hide ?  Surely as a socialist he should be willing to share his money fairly with the underprivileged of his home country, or is he just a hypocrite rather than a ''pretty straight kind of guy''. [/quote]You don''t really think Tony Blair is ''a socialist'' do you? Blair and Cameron (and even Brown to a certain extent) are just two sides of the same coin. Which brings us back to Mrs T [;)]

[Badger 0]

Paul, an attempt to look at the public debt issue objectively.

In 1974 - Wilson elected it was 47.9% of GDP

1979 - Thatcher elected it was 43.6% of GDP - it fell slightly under Wilson/ Callaghan

1984 - a similar 5 year period ("Mid Thatcher") - it was still 43.6% - almost unchanged

1989 - 5 year period - 29.3%. A huge fall that supporters will no doubt attribute to her economic policies. Detractors will point to the huge influx of North Sea oil revenues and a whole series of one-off asset sales (BT etc).

1994 - Mid Major - 36% - rising again. MT supporters would suggest a leftward swing even under Major, detractors might say you cannot sell assets indefinitely. A more sensible view is that the level of debt is affected by economic conditions and that there a significant time lag effects from previous years.

1997 - end of the Tory government - 41.9% of GDP. The net effect of the successive Tory governments was a fall of 1.7%, approximately 0.1% per annum. This compares to a net fall of 4.3% in the Callaghan Wilson era - a fall of c 0.9% pa. In other words, public debt fell 9 times more quickly under the Wilson/ Callaghan Governments than it did under the Thatcher/ Major ones. This is despite the huge north sea revenues and the biggest period of public asset sales ever recorded. Hence my criticism of MT above

Public debt fell quite sharply under the Blair - it fell to 29.3% in 2002. A significant proportion of the credit for the must go to the much derided Major and to Ken Clarke, rather than MT who seems to gain all the credit for being tough but was really relatively profligate. This was not due to generosity with the public services but imo to the economic incompetence displayed by the government.

Public debt has risen steadily since 2002, to 36.4% by 2008. In 2009 and 2010 it has "exploded" - 44% in 2009 and 53.5% is projected for 2010. I would argue that this is a very sensible response to the challenges faced by potentially the greatest economic crisis for at least 80 years and possibly more. A failure to have increased debt at such a time would have been incomprehensible as would be demonstrated by international comparisons. Nevertheless, it would be fair to say that prior to this the trajectory was upward in any case.

What is striking is the lack of objectivity in the scare stories that we see in the press:

Debt as a proportion of GDP was

1970 Heath elected - 64% of GDP

1964 - Wilson elected 1st time - 91%

1956 Macmillan "anointed" - 129% of GDP

1951 - Churhill elected - 175% of GDP

1945 - Atlee elected - 216% of GDP

1940 - 110%

1935 - 165% - an interesting comparison!

1930 - 161.6%

1920 - 130.7%

You have to go back to before the first world war to see levels of debt comparable with late 20th century/ early 21st century. The stories about current level of indebtedness are the product of economic naivety at best or more likely, the simple desire to publish scare stories and "bad news."

[Andy Larkin 15]

Paul Moy,I''m a simple left-wing sabre rattler. I would put all of you Thatcher lovers up against a wall and shoot you. It''s far easier than having economic debates with you.I make my stand on Thatcher from a position of feeling what was going on in the country on her watch was wrong, it felt wrong and hey ho it was wrong. I don''t believe in Blair or Brown - they are different cheeks of the

same arse in my book - but anyone that continues their love in with

Thatcher appears to be lacking soul in my opinion. When you put profits over people you are morally bankrupt.

But back to the thrust of your main argument… I do believe Badger just handed you your arse on a plate when it comes to GDP.

[Crafty Canary 495]

[quote user="Andy Larkin"]Paul Moy,I''m a simple left-wing sabre rattler. I would put all of you Thatcher lovers up against a wall and shoot you. It''s far easier than having economic debates with you.I make my stand on Thatcher from a position of feeling what was going on in the country on her watch was wrong, it felt wrong and hey ho it was wrong. I don''t believe in Blair or Brown - they are different cheeks of the

same arse in my book - but anyone that continues their love in with

Thatcher appears to be lacking soul in my opinion. When you put profits over people you are morally bankrupt.

But back to the thrust of your main argument… I do believe Badger just handed you your arse on a plate when it comes to GDP.

[/quote]Ah, that good old Socialist love of democracy - You re entitled to your opinion so long as it agrees with mine,otherwise you should be put against a wall and shot. I bet you think Stalin was a nice old gent and Beria a greatly misunderstood upholder of law and order.

[Andy Larkin 15]

[quote user="crafty canary"][quote user="Andy Larkin"]Paul Moy,I''m a simple left-wing sabre rattler. I would put all of you Thatcher lovers up against a wall and shoot you. It''s far easier than having economic debates with you.I make my stand on Thatcher from a position of feeling what was going on in the country on her watch was wrong, it felt wrong and hey ho it was wrong. I don''t believe in Blair or Brown - they are different cheeks of the

same arse in my book - but anyone that continues their love in with

Thatcher appears to be lacking soul in my opinion. When you put profits over people you are morally bankrupt.

But back to the thrust of your main argument… I do believe Badger just handed you your arse on a plate when it comes to GDP.

[/quote]Ah, that good old Socialist love of democracy - You re entitled to your opinion so long as it agrees with mine,otherwise you should be put against a wall and shot. I bet you think Stalin was a nice old gent and Beria a greatly misunderstood upholder of law and order.[/quote]Oh, I''m sorry… did I miss the sarcastic emoticon for you?

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="Andy Larkin"]Paul Moy,

I''m a simple left-wing sabre rattler.

I would put all of you Thatcher lovers up against a wall and shoot you. It''s far easier than having economic debates with you.

[/quote]

So you were happy to subsidise loss making nationalised industries.

Interesting to see that when BT was privatised there was a massive reduction in manpower and an improvement in service.

No longer do people have to wait ages for a new line.

 

Furthermore the private sector had to get its act together too.

 

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="Andy Larkin"]

When you put profits over people you are morally bankrupt.

[/quote]

Ok, you can pay for my lifestyle as you like people.

[paul moy 235]

It looks like I won the argument then. [:D]

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

BTW. when you dont have a profit driven society you get the supply (or rather the lack of supply) and the (non)

customer service usually found in Communist societies. So whats your alternative?

 

[Crafty Canary 495]

[quote user="Andy Larkin"][quote user="crafty canary"][quote user="Andy Larkin"]Paul Moy,I''m a simple left-wing sabre rattler. I would put all of you Thatcher lovers up against a wall and shoot you. It''s far easier than having economic debates with you.I make my stand on Thatcher from a position of feeling what was going on in the country on her watch was wrong, it felt wrong and hey ho it was wrong. I don''t believe in Blair or Brown - they are different cheeks of the

same arse in my book - but anyone that continues their love in with

Thatcher appears to be lacking soul in my opinion. When you put profits over people you are morally bankrupt.

But back to the thrust of your main argument… I do believe Badger just handed you your arse on a plate when it comes to GDP.

[/quote]

Ah, that good old Socialist love of democracy - You re entitled to your opinion so long as it agrees with mine,otherwise you should be put against a wall and shot. I bet you think Stalin was a nice old gent and Beria a greatly misunderstood upholder of law and order.[/quote]Oh, I''m sorry… did I miss the sarcastic emoticon for you?

[/quote] Sarcasm? Don''t hide behind that get out you wimp. Stand by your beliefs or what''s the point? Remember Maggie the Magnificent would have defended your right to hold your dinosaur socialist beliefs. Have you thought of taking a lovely break in the Socialist paradise of North Korea? l''m sure it would re-charge your batteries for the next onslaught against all us horrid capitalist running dogs!!

[Andy Larkin 15]

[quote user="crafty canary"]Sarcasm? Don''t hide behind that get out you wimp. Stand by your beliefs or what''s the point? Remember Maggie the Magnificent would have defended your right to hold your dinosaur socialist beliefs. Have you thought of taking a lovely break in the Socialist paradise of North Korea? l''m sure it would re-charge your batteries for the next onslaught against all us horrid capitalist running dogs!![/quote]Sorry for the slow response but I’ve been away from the ‘pooter for a bit. And I can see that the second Blitzkrieg has already got underway. Blimey, we are a right little lot of bait-taking Tories aren’t we?So, North Korea has declared itself as Socialist has it? Best you inform them, as the last time I looked they were banging on about Communism or something of that ilk.I’m happy to stand by my convictions, as I am sure you are yours, but you should not take everything that is written as fact of someone sitting behind a keyboard with steam coming out of their ears… sometimes they are having a bit of a rise.I don’t agree with people being shot for the political beliefs anymore than you do I would imagine. I think that The Democratic People’s Republic of Korea has been a total and utter failure, but then it was hardly going to be anything but. Communism is great as a concept but falls down with the fact that humans have to implement it and thus it fails.But I am proud and happy to stand up for being a Socialist. I have never understood what people have to be ashamed of being a Socialist for? You tell me what is wrong with the following doctrine? (It’s pasted from Wikipedia as I couldn’t be arsed to type it all, but it sums up how I feel about things?)“Socialists generally share the view that capitalism unfairly concentrates power and wealth among a small segment of society that controls capital and derives its wealth through a system of exploitation. This in turn creates an unequal society, that fails to provide equal opportunities for everyone to maximise their potential, and does not utilise technology and resources to their maximum potential nor in the interests of the public.”Seriously, why is that such a bad thing to believe in?Tangible Fag Packet Accountant - I don’t know enough about BT to comment on your point, but I do know that the general perception of the energy companies is that they are ripping us off and there is little we can do about it? Do you still think they are shining examples of Thatcher’s enlightened privatisation reforms? Or could you possibly bring yourself to acknowledge that the fear expressed at the time, that once you hand over such prized assets to the clamouring hordes of privateers and profiteers that you end up paying through the nose for it, was right?Train travel is wonderful now as well isn’t it? I got into Norwich at 2.45 this morning having left Liverpool St at 11.30pm. Yup, they have certainly got that one working smoothly.Now before you all start throwing Brown and Blair at me… I don’t care one jot for them either. My Labour Party died with John Smith (in fact politics as I remember it died with John Smith and has instead been replaced with sneering poster campaigns where one lot of pigs try to outscore the others - the only problem is the Tories have never done humour well, nor sarcasm, and never will and thus their stuff looks lame and is easy to lampoon - see www.mydavidcameron.com for a perfect example).Sadly this country has too much of a right wing leaning for my socilaist utopoia to ever take off here. We care far more for animals than we do humans. We care far more about how our shares are performing than wether the old lady next door can afford to have her heating turned on or not. We care far more about our savings accounts than if kids living below the poverty line have had a decent meal today. You see, the Right do tend to go for the me, me, me… the Left for us, us, us (generalising in both instances obviously)! And I know where I am happier.You can keep Margaret Thatcher as close to your heart as you want. I despise her for what i saw her do to large swathes of the working class communities at the behest of her backers. I despised the ‘Gordon Gecko’ decade we lived through (and are again right now) where “I’m all right Jack” became a national mantra. I despised what her legacy has done to British politics. I despised the jingoistic wave of Nationalism that her crusade to The Falkland Islands/Las Malvinas caused and hasn''t ever left. I despised her crooked, sneering gaze that bore down on us for so, so long.I shall enjoy micturating on her memory… and I promise to wring out every last little drop for all you Maggie Lovers… including an especially spectacular arc for dear old CC.Flying high up in the sky, we’ll keep the red flag flying high!

[BlyBlyBabes 0]

[quote user="Andy Larkin"]Paul Moy,

I''m a simple left-wing sabre rattler.

I would put all of you Thatcher lovers up against a wall and shoot you. It''s far easier than having economic debates with you.

I make my stand on Thatcher from a position of feeling what was going on in the country on her watch was wrong, it felt wrong and hey ho it was wrong. I don''t believe in Blair or Brown - they are different cheeks of the same arse in my book - but anyone that continues their love in with Thatcher appears to be lacking soul in my opinion. When you put profits over people you are morally bankrupt.

But back to the thrust of your main argument… I do believe Badger just handed you your arse on a plate when it comes to GDP.

[/quote]

Hmmm...fine words.

But it takes cash to care.

And therein lies one of the great conundrums of life.

OTBC

 

[paul moy 235]

[quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]

[quote user="Andy Larkin"]Paul Moy,

I''m a simple left-wing sabre rattler.

I would put all of you Thatcher lovers up against a wall and shoot you. It''s far easier than having economic debates with you.

I make my stand on Thatcher from a position of feeling what was going on in the country on her watch was wrong, it felt wrong and hey ho it was wrong. I don''t believe in Blair or Brown - they are different cheeks of the same arse in my book - but anyone that continues their love in with Thatcher appears to be lacking soul in my opinion. When you put profits over people you are morally bankrupt.

But back to the thrust of your main argument… I do believe Badger just handed you your arse on a plate when it comes to GDP.

[/quote]

Hmmm...fine words.

But it takes cash to care.

And therein lies one of the great conundrums of life.

OTBC

 

[/quote]

It''s those ''dreaded'' profits that pay the taxes and allow businesses to expand and create employment for people, so that they can also pay taxes which can be spent on public services to make everybody better off, at the top and bottom of the scale.  

[Andy Larkin 15]

[quote user="paul moy"][quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]

[quote user="Andy Larkin"]Paul Moy,I''m a simple left-wing sabre rattler. I would put all of you Thatcher lovers up against a wall and shoot you. It''s far easier than having economic debates with you.I make my stand on Thatcher from a position of feeling what was going on in the country on her watch was wrong, it felt wrong and hey ho it was wrong. I don''t believe in Blair or Brown - they are different cheeks of the same arse in my book - but anyone that continues their love in with Thatcher appears to be lacking soul in my opinion. When you put profits over people you are morally bankrupt.But back to the thrust of your main argument… I do believe Badger just handed you your arse on a plate when it comes to GDP.[/quote]

Hmmm...fine words.

But it takes cash to care.

And therein lies one of the great conundrums of life.

OTBC

 

[/quote]

It''s those ''dreaded'' profits that pay the taxes and allow businesses to expand and create employment for people, so that they can also pay taxes which can be spent on public services to make everybody better off, at the top and bottom of the scale.  

[/quote]Where did I say no profits at all?I am not so thick that i can''t understand the need for profit, but it is the scale of the profit and the cost of the profit that has left behind all bounds of decency.Why should a CEO get a huge pay rise and earn a six or seven figure salary when his company cannot pay his staff a decent wage or employ sufficient levels of employees so that the other staff don''t have to do ''compulsory'' overtime? (and please don''t cite brain drain as that is as big a load of bow locks as you can care to dream up).Even Richard Lambert has waded in by calling them "aliens" - see below http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/mar/31/myners-urges-fsa-to-investigate-shareholders-roleDo you mean to tell me that you back these pigs with their snouts in the trough? Do they really plough their profits in to expansion or is it a case of paying out to the shareholders? And do they make their profits by exploiting those they employ? I presume that you are not on the minimum wage Paul? If you are, then your stance defies belief. If you''re not then maybe you ought to have a stint on it and see how those caring, sharing lions of industry look out for you.Like I said before, keep your selfish right wing ways. I care not for people that have no sense of community or compassion and are not are prepared to make a sacrifice for those that are less comfortable than themselves.If you truly believe that a man that is a multi-millionaire twenty times over can''t afford to pay considerably more tax then you need to get your head tested.

[Mister Chops 7]

[quote user="Andy Larkin"]You can keep Margaret Thatcher as close to your heart as you want. I despise her for what i saw her do to large swathes of the working class communities at the behest of her backers. I despised the ‘Gordon Gecko’ decade we lived through (and are again right now) where “I’m all right Jack” became a national mantra. I despised what her legacy has done to British politics. I despised the jingoistic wave of Nationalism that her crusade to The Falkland Islands/Las Malvinas caused and hasn''t ever left. I despised her crooked, sneering gaze that bore down on us for so, so long.[/quote]The Malvinas saved Thatcher in the 1983 election, and had it been otherwise you might have got your utopia under Michael Foot who ran the most left wing Labour campaign ever, arguably.  Unilateral nuclear disarmament being the key point.  Foot was too far for me, but I echo your views on John Smith.  Pragmatic but principled, unlike Blair''s pure pragmatism.