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Trouble after game

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[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="batesout MOT"]

As it happens, I''m a decent fan.

Despite going to 40 games a season I hardly ever see any bother. Bit of laddishness/few blokes who''ve had a few too many-Yes occasionally. The (over)-reaction of some teams/towns we visit is nothing short of ridiculous. This thread is a prime example of such.

[/quote]

Well are you really batesout? If so good for you! But you are a misguided one that''s for sure. Because I can''t see the funny side of your fans being locked in after games and for the umpteenth time on this thread I will explain why.

The vast majority of people in this country have no interest in football and certainly not enough interest to bother differentiating between different clubs let alone supporters of the same club. If your fans cannot be trusted to behave themselves, so have to be locked in a football stadium until decent people have had time to leave, then the vast majority of people in this country will tar all your fans with the same brush. In fact they will tar ALL FOOTBALL FANS of any club with the same brush. It becomes a football problem and when governments make decisions they will make them for football fans not just Leeds fans.

So decent fans, like you and I, cannot afford to let this happen. Those who can''t behave themselves should be punished and kept away from football grounds. Allowing them to hide amongst the law abiding decent fans for 20 minutes after the game will eventually mean all law abiding decent fans will be punished. If you don''t believe this can happen just look back 25 years.

 

[/quote]

 

And what I posted back then seems even more relevant now. It''s in everybody''s interests that thugs are shown up to be thugs and not allowed to hide in amongst decent fans. Because back in the 70''s and 80''s folk couldn''t distinguish between football fans and thugs for the simple reason they were all herded around together and because of that were all associated with football violence. Today that small mindedness still exists, you only have to look on the "Leeds Hooligans" thread to see that folk find it impossible to differentiate between decent football fans and thugs.

 

Sorry to keep harping back to the 80''s but older fans will understand what I am going to say. Norwich v Sunderland League Cup Final in 1985 was dubbed by the press as the "friendly final". During an age when football violence stories filled the newspapers and news programmes this game caught the whole country''s imagination because of the spirit between the fans. There was never a suggestion that thugs had taken part in football violence and both Norwich and Sunderland fans were quite rightly proud of the final which had shone like a beacon in those dark days. Norwich had qualified for Europe for the first time in their history, even the cruel way we were relegated failed to dampen the fans enthusiasm for this adventure. But  before the end of May the dream was destroyed. Liverpool fans rioted in Heysell and once again football was in the news for all the wrong reasons. The fact that thugs had been allowed to blend in as football fans meant something had to be done and all English clubs and all their fans were banned from Europe by the government who saw it as football violence by football fans. The fact that the vast majority of football fans weren''t thugs mattered not. The fact that Norwich''s football fans got the same punishment as Liverpool''s mattered not. We were all thugs and probably because we''d allowed people to treat us like thugs for so long nothing was done at any level to dispute that myth.

 

So now we musn''t allow thugs to hide amongst decent fans. If 2,000 Leeds fans are kept behind for 20 minutes they will be viewed as 2,000 thugs. We should learn the lessons from the past. Because the vast majority of people in this country will never see the difference between thugs and football fans. It will be football violence by football fans once again.

 

 

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Football is a working class sport, always has been always will be, NO

plastic green seats, BSkyB cameras or advertisement board will ever hide

this fact. Yes the modern day football fan has changed, and is

completely different to the football fans of the 70''s and 80''s but this

is like anything else, your town''s high streets, your local pub, the

clothes you wear its called evolution?!

Fundamentally people have not changed and there will always be violence

associated with football, people may not like it but its called ''The

English diseases'' for a reason. Yes there are more families and women

that attend football these days, but every club has that core group of

fans that drink beer, and wear casual cloths, the football ''lad''. The

lower down the football league you go the more of these ''lads'' you will

find. Violence at these games is due to a lack of policing, leagues

like the Championship and League One have clubs like Leeds, Millwall,

Forest and the list goes on, teams which are not new to violence at

football its almost a  rebirth of the problem, whether the ''normal'' fan

is caught up in this I really don''t think the footballing bodies care too

much. As long as it doesn''t creep back into the top tier of the English

game they will be happy. Clubs in the lower leagues need more money off the F.A. if the situation is ever going to improve.

Mate, do you you really think the general public tarnish every football

fan with the same brush these days, the amount of column inches that

football violence gets is close to nonexistent. I also think the tag

that was placed around the English football fan''s head in the 70''s and

80''s was rightly so. The English game was in disarray and something

needed to be done, now it was unfortunate that we (Norwich and other

clubs) were punished but what can you do. Attendances were down, the

English game was boring and the governing bodies needed to change it and

they used our nation as an example.

This weekend we play Leeds and if your kids or wife are subjected to

some form of football violence don''t be surprised, Leeds have a

reputation both on and off the pitch and therefore always will carry the

possibility of trouble. The funny thing is there is nothing you or

anyone can do about it. Not even the police, like we saw last year. No

doubt there will be a bigger police presence because of last years show

but its hard to control their fans before and after the game. So we will

see.

Good luck and may the force be with you.OTBC 2-1 Norwich!!!

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[quote user="NCFC4LIFE"]Football is a working class sport, always has been always will be, NO plastic green seats, BSkyB cameras or advertisement board will ever hide this fact. Yes the modern day football fan has changed, and is completely different to the football fans of the 70''s and 80''s but this is like anything else, your town''s high streets, your local pub, the clothes you wear its called evolution?!

Fundamentally people have not changed and there will always be violence associated with football, people may not like it but its called ''The English diseases'' for a reason. Yes there are more families and women that attend football these days, but every club has that core group of fans that drink beer, and wear casual cloths, the football ''lad''. The lower down the football league you go the more of these ''lads'' you will find. Violence at these games is due to a lack of policing, leagues like the Championship and League One have clubs like Leeds, Millwall, Forest and the list goes on, teams which are not new to violence at football its almost a  rebirth of the problem, whether the ''normal'' fan is caught up in this I really don''t think the footballing bodies care too much. As long as it doesn''t creep back into the top tier of the English game they will be happy. Clubs in the lower leagues need more money off the F.A. if the situation is ever going to improve.

Mate, do you you really think the general public tarnish every football fan with the same brush these days, the amount of column inches that football violence gets is close to nonexistent. I also think the tag that was placed around the English football fan''s head in the 70''s and 80''s was rightly so. The English game was in disarray and something needed to be done, now it was unfortunate that we (Norwich and other clubs) were punished but what can you do. Attendances were down, the English game was boring and the governing bodies needed to change it and they used our nation as an example.

This weekend we play Leeds and if your kids or wife are subjected to some form of football violence don''t be surprised, Leeds have a reputation both on and off the pitch and therefore always will carry the possibility of trouble. The funny thing is there is nothing you or anyone can do about it. Not even the police, like we saw last year. No doubt there will be a bigger police presence because of last years show but its hard to control their fans before and after the game. So we will see.

Good luck and may the force be with you.

OTBC 2-1 Norwich!!!

Although there''s lots here that I could take issue with, the one point I would argue is your contention that the ''lower you get down the league the more ''lads'' you find''.  If that''s the case, why doesn''t that hold true for the Conference and the BSS and BSN where, in many cases attendances outstrip League Two.  All Conference games I''ve been to have been, generally, unsegregated, have noisy standing areas and are trouble free.

Sorry, one more thing - the definition of ''football'' being a ''working class'' sport.  Surely any sport is ''working class'' unless you can afford not to work, which I''m sure most fans can''t do. Having lived in Manchester in the mid-1970s, I can tell you that the average Manure fan now is very different to the ones that used to frequent the Stretford End in 1975.  Also you seem to be saying that football violence is something that has always been there so live with it.  Having started watching football prior to the bad old days I can certainly say that it only emerged as a problem in the late 1960''s so your perspective seems very narrow.




[/quote]

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Narrow?The first recoreded incident was in 1885 it involved PNE and Villa......Your claim of violence in football emerging in the 60''s is utter pish, the reason you have said this is people started to research and come up with theories behind football in this era. Violence at football became more documented due to popular culture and the media!!! In fact violence and football have gone hand in hand since the beginning of the 13th Century. So Narrow i believe not.Football has been refered to by many academics as the working mans sport!!! "I can tell you that the average Manure fan now is very different to the ones that used to frequent the Stretford End in 1975" What you have said her is equally as wrong, you see Man Utd travel away and it is filled with men in no color''s drinking beer and enjoying the same ethos as the men that did the same in the 70''sConfrence football is slightly different than League football teams have less history and less fans cant compare!!

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[quote user="NCFC4LIFE"]Narrow?

The first recoreded incident was in 1885 it involved PNE and Villa......Your claim of violence in football emerging in the 60''s is utter pish, the reason you have said this is people started to research and come up with theories behind football in this era. Violence at football became more documented due to popular culture and the media!!! In fact violence and football have gone hand in hand since the beginning of the 13th Century. So Narrow i believe not.

Football has been refered to by many academics as the working mans sport!!!

"I can tell you that the average Manure fan now is very different to the ones that used to frequent the Stretford End in 1975" What you have said her is equally as wrong, you see Man Utd travel away and it is filled with men in no color''s drinking beer and enjoying the same ethos as the men that did the same in the 70''s

Confrence football is slightly different than League football teams have less history and less fans cant compare!!








[/quote]

Were you around in the 1960''s? - no, I thought not.  I don''t dispute that violence has been part of the game historically - my uncle used to tell me tales of Millwall fans in the 1950s.  The point I was making is the level of violence escalated during the late 1960s through to the late 1980s on an unprecedented scale to anything that had happened previously.  From 1990 onwards it has decreased significantly and the social demographic of football crowds has shifted dramatically because of this - and the all-seater requirements.  What you appear to regard as ''the norm'' I would view as an unfortunate blip within the historical context of watching football.

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[quote user="NCFC4LIFE"]Narrow?

The first recoreded incident was in 1885 it involved PNE and Villa......Your claim of violence in football emerging in the 60''s is utter pish, the reason you have said this is people started to research and come up with theories behind football in this era. Violence at football became more documented due to popular culture and the media!!! In fact violence and football have gone hand in hand since the beginning of the 13th Century. So Narrow i believe not.

Football has been refered to by many academics as the working mans sport!!!

"I can tell you that the average Manure fan now is very different to the ones that used to frequent the Stretford End in 1975" What you have said her is equally as wrong, you see Man Utd travel away and it is filled with men in no color''s drinking beer and enjoying the same ethos as the men that did the same in the 70''s

Confrence football is slightly different than League football teams have less history and less fans cant compare!!


[/quote]

Were you around in the 1960s? - No, I thought not.  I am not arguing that there, historically, has not been violence associated with football - my uncle can tell tales of Millwall fans in the 1950s.  What I am saying is that football violence escalated to an unprecedented scale between the late 1960s and the late 1980s.  Since 1990 it has decreased significantly and this, combined with the all seater requirements, has dramatically changed the social demographic at football matches.  Whether you like it or not, football is no longer the sole possession of the ''working man'', whoever he is?  What I dispute is that what you appear to regard as ''the norm'' was in fact an unfortunate (often deadly) blip in the history of watching football.

Also, you obviously know little about Conference attendances and the number of ex-league clubs in the Conference to make the comments you do about that level of football.

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No i wasn''t around in the 60''s and neither do i need to of been to

understand that violence and football was rife between the 60-90''s, i

have never questioned that. You were demonstrating that violence in

football had just magically appeared in the 60''s and i pointed out that

this is not true.

Violence is embedded in football and although it may not be as prevalent

as in the 80''s it is still there and will always be there, and people

that think otherwise are extremely narrow minded!!

I did my dissertation on the topic so could go toe to toe with you all

day but would rather not embarrass and old man, so i tip my hat to you and good

day sir.

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I think this weekends match will have a slightly different atmosphere to the one last season. Last season both teams were top 2, this season there''s not as much at stake. Plus given its being played on a cold November day, rather than a fine warm Spings day will probably affect the atmosphere too.

All I hope for is a safe passage from and to The Nelson, before and after the game like I had last year.  

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[quote user="NCFC4LIFE"]No i wasn''t around in the 60''s and neither do i need to of been to understand that violence and football was rife between the 60-90''s, i have never questioned that. You were demonstrating that violence in football had just magically appeared in the 60''s and i pointed out that this is not true.

Violence is embedded in football and although it may not be as prevalent as in the 80''s it is still there and will always be there, and people that think otherwise are extremely narrow minded!!

I did my dissertation on the topic so could go toe to toe with you all day but would rather not embarrass and old man, so i tip my hat to you and good day sir.[/quote]

Errr...no, just that it escalated during that period.  You are obviously Rogan Taylor and I claim my £5. Pip Pip [B]

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[quote user="NCFC4LIFE"]Football is a working class sport, always has been always will be, NO plastic green seats, BSkyB cameras or advertisement board will ever hide this fact. Yes the modern day football fan has changed, and is completely different to the football fans of the 70''s and 80''s but this is like anything else, your town''s high streets, your local pub, the clothes you wear its called evolution?!

Fundamentally people have not changed and there will always be violence associated with football, people may not like it but its called ''The English diseases'' for a reason. Yes there are more families and women that attend football these days, but every club has that core group of fans that drink beer, and wear casual cloths, the football ''lad''. The lower down the football league you go the more of these ''lads'' you will find. Violence at these games is due to a lack of policing, leagues like the Championship and League One have clubs like Leeds, Millwall, Forest and the list goes on, teams which are not new to violence at football its almost a  rebirth of the problem, whether the ''normal'' fan is caught up in this I really don''t think the footballing bodies care too much. As long as it doesn''t creep back into the top tier of the English game they will be happy. Clubs in the lower leagues need more money off the F.A. if the situation is ever going to improve.

Mate, do you you really think the general public tarnish every football fan with the same brush these days, the amount of column inches that football violence gets is close to nonexistent. I also think the tag that was placed around the English football fan''s head in the 70''s and 80''s was rightly so. The English game was in disarray and something needed to be done, now it was unfortunate that we (Norwich and other clubs) were punished but what can you do. Attendances were down, the English game was boring and the governing bodies needed to change it and they used our nation as an example.

This weekend we play Leeds and if your kids or wife are subjected to some form of football violence don''t be surprised, Leeds have a reputation both on and off the pitch and therefore always will carry the possibility of trouble. The funny thing is there is nothing you or anyone can do about it. Not even the police, like we saw last year. No doubt there will be a bigger police presence because of last years show but its hard to control their fans before and after the game. So we will see.

Good luck and may the force be with you.

OTBC 2-1 Norwich!!!





[/quote]

 

Good post and you''ve obviously given these things some thought.

 

I''m not sure what working class is. I know what it was but how do you equate that with todays society? But of course football has always united folk from so many different backgrounds and professions. Back in the 60''s and 70''s you could find yourself standing on the terraces with your teacher, your councillor, your vicar, your dustman, your coalman even your MP. Just because there was a time when miners left the pit on a saturday afternoon and went to the footy that doesn''t mean all other kinds of people weren''t there too. At Carrow Road, like most grounds there was just the Main Stand that wasn''t terracing and season ticket holders there were I guess people with money. Landowners, Businessmen and Farmers etc. There weren''t many of what you probably meant by working class in that stand.

 

I don''t believe violence has to be associated with football, I really don''t. We allowed that to happen and it cost us dear. It should never be an accepted fact that violence be associated with football. Yes there are more families at football now. But this has been brought about by making the stadiums better places for families to go. Back in the 60''s I doubt there were many went to the football as a family. The closest you would get was when dad took his son. And that''s where most of us caught the bug. My circumstances meant I didn''t have a dad to take me to the football so apart from a couple of games with my friend and his dad I had to wait until I could go without an adult. Back in the 60''s this was when I was 11. In those days it was never deemed unsafe for 11 year olds to go on their own so it must have been at least as safe as it has become now, wouldn''t you say?

 

Yes I do think the public tar all fans with the same brush. Not neccessarily the ones who understand football but the vast majority of people in this country have no interest in football whatsoever. If they hear on the news that 2,000 Leeds fans were locked in the ground for half an hour they will equate that to 2,000 thugs. Not 1,950 decent fans and 50 thugs which is probably a truer picture. Try going abroad, not just to the resorts but to the little towns and villages. Walk around in an England football shirt and see how people react and look at you. We let that happen through allowing thugs to hide amongst the genuine England fans.

 

You are doing us all a great disservice by saying don''t be surprised if your wife and kids are subjected to some form of football violence. The words you were looking for was thuggish violence or ignorant violence. But not football violence because there is no such thing. By accepting that there is football violence you are once again allowing the thugs to hide amongst the football fans.

 

OTBC my friend and good luck to you too. Leave a selection on the Rays Funds For FONCY thread when you are next around.

 

 

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[quote user="NCFC4LIFE"]Football is a working class sport, always has been always will be[/quote]I''d take issue with a lot of this also.  But your post basically says "well, there''s nothing that can be done about football violence," and I disagree about that most of all.

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Football and violence will go hand in hand untill the end of time whether people want to believe it or not?!

Beer + Youth x football = violence!!

Yes the Taylor report in the 90''s changed the dynamics of football participation by making it safer for women and children to attend games. This does not mean that violence was eradicated for the game completly.

This season Millwall played QPR which resulted in 11 arrests two people were arrested for assault with a deadly weapon. This was around the Loftus Road area, straight after kick off and both clubs are being investigated by the Met. last year 64 West Ham fans found themselves in the same situation.

It will always be a part of the game. fact.

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[quote user="thefutureisyellow"]No excuses this time Mr Mcnally, we should not be taken by surprise cos we all know what happened last time![/quote]

From what I saw today it was well done to the club and the police.

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You werent walking (or trying to walk) past the south stand after the game then?

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[quote user="Bitesyerlegs"]You werent walking (or trying to walk) past the south stand after the game then?

Yawn......[/quote]

p`ss off back to the cretin board

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[quote user="NCFC4LIFE"]Football and violence will go hand in hand untill the end of time whether people want to believe it or not?! Beer + Youth x football = violence!! Yes the Taylor report in the 90''s changed the dynamics of football participation by making it safer for women and children to attend games. This does not mean that violence was eradicated for the game completly. This season Millwall played QPR which resulted in 11 arrests two people were arrested for assault with a deadly weapon. This was around the Loftus Road area, straight after kick off and both clubs are being investigated by the Met. last year 64 West Ham fans found themselves in the same situation. It will always be a part of the game. fact.[/quote]

 

That''s that then. Can''t argue against facts.

 

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

That''s that then. Can''t argue against facts.

 

 

[/quote]It''s not a fact if it''s not written in capital letters. FACT!

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="NCFC4LIFE"]Football and violence will go hand in hand untill the end of time whether people want to believe it or not?! Beer + Youth x football = violence!! Yes the Taylor report in the 90''s changed the dynamics of football participation by making it safer for women and children to attend games. This does not mean that violence was eradicated for the game completly. This season Millwall played QPR which resulted in 11 arrests two people were arrested for assault with a deadly weapon. This was around the Loftus Road area, straight after kick off and both clubs are being investigated by the Met. last year 64 West Ham fans found themselves in the same situation. It will always be a part of the game. fact.[/quote]

That''s that then. Can''t argue against facts.

[/quote]

Mr Worthington looks like he''s giving a rather violent karate chop in your avatar.

And ain''t that a fact.[;)]

Whatever next?

OTBC

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="NCFC4LIFE"]Football and violence will go hand in hand untill the end of time whether people want to believe it or not?! Beer + Youth x football = violence!! Yes the Taylor report in the 90''s changed the dynamics of football participation by making it safer for women and children to attend games. This does not mean that violence was eradicated for the game completly. This season Millwall played QPR which resulted in 11 arrests two people were arrested for assault with a deadly weapon. This was around the Loftus Road area, straight after kick off and both clubs are being investigated by the Met. last year 64 West Ham fans found themselves in the same situation. It will always be a part of the game. fact.[/quote]

 

That''s that then. Can''t argue against facts.

 

 

[/quote]

NN - Don''t try arguing this one - after all, he did do his dissertation on football violence so he is the world authority!  I like the FACT that he can predict the future as well - after all, violence linked to football will always be a fact - seemingly like we always go to war against the French!

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PIPE DOWN, if you have done any further reading about this topic then you should know that you are wrong.... The police know as well as the footballing authorities that violence at football is something that they cant eradicate from the game completly, controlling something is a little different to eradicating it?!Yes the Police give banning orders which extinguishes the violence from the stadia but after the final whistle goes is were they lose control, hooligans including our very own have been known to then leave the grounds and cause trouble in the oppositions city/town (Leicester). I saw this first hand last year whilst drinking outside Victoria Train Station, a group of City fans were attacked by Millwall fans.I never said i am the World authority at this subject but i do know a fair bit about it, i had meetings with the Liaison Officer at Elland Road and spoke to a number of Landlords during my research and they both divulged that trouble on a Saturday afternoon is a common occurrence.

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