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[quote user="norfolkbroadslim"]http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmhaff/676/676.pdf[/quote]

 

The Current Arrangements

4. Football clubs are currently only legally obliged to pay for the policing on their

“footprint”, usually inside the stadium and surrounding car parks; the provision of

“consequential policing” outside a football match, for example at a railway station or in the

city centre, is currently the responsibility of the police and is provided at their discretion and

at a cost to them. Clubs do not have to pay for this “extra” service.

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Very interesting, it appears the clubs do have quite a bit of input  regarding policing at matches -

 

16 June 2009 ACC Stephen Thomas and Mr Derek Smith

ACC Thomas: There is an awful lot of work with the

clubs, in fact only yesterday the Football League

held this year’s fixture list meeting. The Football

League have a computer which works out the

fixtures every year and then there is a meeting in the

middle of June where the police from different big

forces, British Transport Police, the Football

League, Premier League meet to try to look at what

the computer has generated to make sure that we do

not have things like Manchester United and

Manchester City playing at home on the same day or

teams crossing the country and crossing across each

other. What then happens, when that fixture list is

published, is a meeting between the local police and

their football club using a five stage category to

grade the risk of disorder for the games for the

following season. If I just run through the categories:

43% of games are police free, games that clubs

steward only; and then there is a category A, which

is low risk; B medium risk; C high risk of disorder;

and a new grade which we brought in two years ago

which is a category C, increased risk. That is where

there are some peculiar or special circumstances

about the risk at that game which mean it is the very

highest risk we police. That is agreed before the

season starts, as soon as the fixtures are published,

between the club and the police. The club have some

idea then what each game will cost and whether

games will need to be policed during the course of

the season. Thereafter about two weeks before that

particular game there should be, sometimes seven

days, sometimes 10 days, sometimes 14 days,

another meeting between the police and the clubs

and it is normally when they are debriefing one game

and then planning ahead games which are coming

that they look again at the intelligence grading to see

what has happened during the course of the season.

The vast majority of games are in fact downgraded

but there are some which get upgraded in the

amount of risk. That is based upon the way those

travelling supporters have behaved during the

course of the season when they perhaps visit other

clubs in that particular region or the way home

supporters have behaved in recent matches. There

are lots of different things which make that

intelligence grading. That is all agreed with the club

and it has to be transparent because the club has to

have some faith in the system.

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[quote user="TIL 1010"]

[quote user="Arthur Whittle"]Tilson, your links with the police are blinding your opinion. Now if you truly do keep in touch with your old muckers at Norwich football intelligence { LOL intelligence} you would know that a large group of Mllwall fans from Norwich and surrounding areas, were out saturdday with Norwich. Now Im no officer, but even I know there are hardcore Millwall living in Norfolk and around...how come you dont know this??? Dont know if you are trying to defend crap policing or you are just out of touch???[/quote]

I was in Roccos as i am every home game Whittle(i will be rude as well) and saw just the usual Norwich "fans" so where were these Millwall lads?

[/quote]

Well if they weren''t in Roccos there obviously couldn''t have been any. Conclusive evidence I presume[;)]

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Some very good posts here Norfolkbroadslim... [Y]The chief officer of police of a police force may provide, at the request of any person,special police services at any premises or in any locality in the police area for whichthe force is maintained, subject to the payment to the police authority of charges onsuch scales as may be determined by that authority.http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmhaff/676/676.pdfThis is one of the first paragraphs in this report and it quite clearly states that the club could be held accountable for policing costs in adjacent areas to the ground and for controlling people in those areas after an event.  How far do these adjacent areas stretch then?  Just across the road to Morrisons, as far as the train station, or as far as other car parks and pubs which are frequently used for by football fans for an hour or two either side of the match?Something that really needs questioning about the above statement is "at the request of any person," surely me or you are unable to request or pay for this additional police presence - but somebody who is representing which ever organisation is arranging an event or a football match can?We have had horses here previously for games against Ipswich and even demonstrations against old chairmen.  It should be obvious to anybody that these were paid for by the club - yet 80 standard police officers were seen fit to manage the job on Saturday with maybe 1 or 2 dog handlers.  I thought this was categorised as a C+ (very high chance of disorder game)?  If so then do the club as well as the police feel (we already know that Supt Jim Smerdon believes that his boys done a fantastic job) that 80 standard officers plus a couple of dogs were enough to contain the potential for serious disorder on Saturday?  I would of said that there could quite easily of been a major incident on Saturday as the police were outnumbered just by the known trouble makers on both sides.It is quite clear that clubs work alongside the police with regards to policing of matches and with regards to controlling surrounding areas to their stadia before and after games.  If this is the case then how was somebody who was witnessed by several officers swinging punches at several Norwich fans at 2:20pm allowed to get in to the away end less than 40 mins later?  Surely all this would of taken was a picture to be taken of the fella and it to be sent to club stewards and police on the gate at the away end to stop this happening?It amazes me that the police and authorities wonder why so many individulas who attend football matches are up for a bit of fisticuffs when they offer very limited protection to those who are there just to enjoy the day, have a few drinks, a bit of friendly banter and watch the football.Oh and I have been to games in the era where we were all treated like cattle and that isn''t the way to go about things either (Nutty), I do agree with you on that... [;)]

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5. The debate over “full-cost” policing rests on the issue of “additionality”, extra services thatthe police provide because of the football match. The police argue that:Policing full commercial events—and that includes football—is based on the premisethat we buy in additional resource, in other words police on overtime, so that wemaintain our core resources to police communities.4Any police presence is “on top of the standard of normal policing”5 at that time. The servicethey provide is over and above what the community would normally be paying for. Thefootball match is the source of this extra expense, regardless of whether the police presenceis on the club’s “footprint” or not.6. The clubs argue that the distinction is not as clear cut as that. They neither require norrequest police presence away from their “footprint” and should not be liable for the cost ofproviding police elsewhere:Is it not about time that the clubs started working more closely with the police on these matters?There have been a number of events over the past year or two that suggest that the current system is somewhat flawed.  I am not blaming NCFC officials for this - we were very lucky that we were not caught up in trouble at Colchester.  Clubs across the country need to be working closer with police authorities in my opinion unless they would like a return to the dark old days.  This kind of thing will always be part and parcel of football, but I just feel that after all the good work that was done the clubs and authorities have slipped back at least 10 to 15 years over the last couple of years.

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[quote user="Lambert is King"]

[quote user="Smudger"][quote user="Fuglestad"]On returning to work today, I discovered a disabled child was attacked on Saturday. He was with his family and Leeds fans got out of a car to attack them. This is all rather grim, but I think anyone who has bothered to post on this thread should be writing/emailing/phoning the police. I made a complaint yesterday to Norfolk Constabulary, and forwarded this to NCFC, LUFC and Archant. So far Leeds have replied informing me they have passed my message onto the Safety Officer and Chief Executive. My handwritten, grovelling apology from Ken Bates himself may be some way off. But, I genuinely feel better having acted. I urge anyone who got into even the slightest bother on Saturday to do the same.

We Only Hate Leeds and Ipswich, Hate Leeds and Ipswich, We Only Hate Leeds and Ipswich....[/quote]I will be popping in to Bethel Street nick tomorrow to follow up about pressing charges on the muppet who twonked me one.If you want to give me the email addresses of those you contacted then feel free and I shall do my best to put a few lines together.[/quote]

 

Yes Fugle I would like you to print those email addresses to. This was different to anything I had seen before. I know how to avoid trouble, however with my young son with me I never usually have any problems home or away. There were so many instances of kids, ladies, disabled and vunlerable being targeted that you can only assume this was a planned target to try and provoke a major incident. The last thing our club or football in general needs is the kids to stop coming to games put off by scum like this 

[/quote]Ok, well I went to www.norfolk.police.uk and filled in one of their complaints forms on the "Contact us" bit. They emailed me back today asking for my phone number so they could call me to discuss it. I also sent the same words to lorna@leedsunited.com who had forwarded my email to their Chief Executive and Safety Officer.I sent one to the club, just to the general email from the official site, and Richard Gough replied. Archant are yet to respond...but I just sent it to reception, so you''re probably better off just picking somebody random, as I did with Leeds, and sending it to them to pass onto whoever it concerns. I am looking forward to my call from Norfolk Constabulary. I am waiting to hear what they have to say before contacting either club. The main issues for me are:Surely unprovoked attacks on families should be an arrestable offence, even if nobody is seriously hurt. Who decided to let the Leeds fans out at full time?There were plenty of Police in the train station, enough to watch every inch of the site. Why were they standing around looking the other way and chatting? I think assurances from the club and police that if we ever play Leeds again they will definitely be held back for half an hour, would be an acceptable response. I think that is realistic, and will hassle the club, police and ARCHANT until this happens. Archant really need to report on this.

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I''m not sure what the official number of away fans were but I''m guessing there  was over 2000. Out of those 2000 how many were the type of fans who deserve to be locked up for half an hour while the so called better fans have the liberty to come and go as they please?

We get held back at Ipswich but probably not for half an hour. But I have been busting a gut for a pee and told I had to wait 20 minutes because the toilet was down a flight of steps and our prison didn''t extend to those facilities. This is 2010 for goodness sake.

 

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[quote user="Fuglestad"][quote user="Lambert is King"]

[quote user="Smudger"][quote user="Fuglestad"]On returning to work today, I discovered a disabled child was attacked on Saturday. He was with his family and Leeds fans got out of a car to attack them. This is all rather grim, but I think anyone who has bothered to post on this thread should be writing/emailing/phoning the police. I made a complaint yesterday to Norfolk Constabulary, and forwarded this to NCFC, LUFC and Archant. So far Leeds have replied informing me they have passed my message onto the Safety Officer and Chief Executive. My handwritten, grovelling apology from Ken Bates himself may be some way off. But, I genuinely feel better having acted. I urge anyone who got into even the slightest bother on Saturday to do the same.

We Only Hate Leeds and Ipswich, Hate Leeds and Ipswich, We Only Hate Leeds and Ipswich....[/quote]I will be popping in to Bethel Street nick tomorrow to follow up about pressing charges on the muppet who twonked me one.If you want to give me the email addresses of those you contacted then feel free and I shall do my best to put a few lines together.[/quote]

 

Yes Fugle I would like you to print those email addresses to. This was different to anything I had seen before. I know how to avoid trouble, however with my young son with me I never usually have any problems home or away. There were so many instances of kids, ladies, disabled and vunlerable being targeted that you can only assume this was a planned target to try and provoke a major incident. The last thing our club or football in general needs is the kids to stop coming to games put off by scum like this 

[/quote]Ok, well I went to www.norfolk.police.uk and filled in one of their complaints forms on the "Contact us" bit. They emailed me back today asking for my phone number so they could call me to discuss it. I also sent the same words to lorna@leedsunited.com who had forwarded my email to their Chief Executive and Safety Officer.I sent one to the club, just to the general email from the official site, and Richard Gough replied. Archant are yet to respond...but I just sent it to reception, so you''re probably better off just picking somebody random, as I did with Leeds, and sending it to them to pass onto whoever it concerns. I am looking forward to my call from Norfolk Constabulary. I am waiting to hear what they have to say before contacting either club. The main issues for me are:Surely unprovoked attacks on families should be an arrestable offence, even if nobody is seriously hurt. Who decided to let the Leeds fans out at full time?There were plenty of Police in the train station, enough to watch every inch of the site. Why were they standing around looking the other way and chatting? I think assurances from the club and police that if we ever play Leeds again they will definitely be held back for half an hour, would be an acceptable response. I think that is realistic, and will hassle the club, police and ARCHANT until this happens. Archant really need to report on this.[/quote]Hi mate, I popped in to Archant on Tuesday and left my details with them for a call back.Surely an unprovoked attack on anybody who does not retaliate, regardless of whether they are seriously hurt or not is an arrestable offence?  You can bet your bottom dollar if I any of the group I was with had of swung a punch back at the individual who hit me just a few yards in front of the police on Saturday then this would of warranted an immediate arrest and they would of missed the game.Why was this individual allowed to get away with it and then allowed to get in to the ground that afternoon?Surely that kind of behaviour from the police is asking for a return to the bad old days?

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

I''m not sure what the official number of away fans were but I''m guessing there  was over 2000. Out of those 2000 how many were the type of fans who deserve to be locked up for half an hour while the so called better fans have the liberty to come and go as they please?

We get held back at Ipswich but probably not for half an hour. But I have been busting a gut for a pee and told I had to wait 20 minutes because the toilet was down a flight of steps and our prison didn''t extend to those facilities. This is 2010 for goodness sake.

 

[/quote]Exactly, 2010 but an individual can still get away with trying to hit sevral people before landing one on one of his many targets only a few yards away from 10 to 15 police officers and still get away with it scott-free and watch the game of football after a little talking to despite being extremely drunk... Who would of thought it in this day and age???Perhaps we have not come so far as we all thought?  There are many people out there who have been immediately knicked for far less out there!I wonder if this pleasant individual managed to hit anybody else after the game that we don''t know about?

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I''m not disputing that Smudge and I''m with you mate. It''s just I don''t believe that 2000 people should be treated differently because of it.

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

I''m not disputing that Smudge and I''m with you mate. It''s just I don''t believe that 2000 people should be treated differently because of it.

 

[/quote]Several of our innocent fans were frog marched about Colchester earlier this season.We are always frog marched at Ipswich and so are they here.I agree with you that it is not very nice, but rather that than some of the ugly looking scenes that were witnessed on Saturday surely?They always knew that there was a very high risk of potential trouble at this game and to allow Leeds fans to mix as freely with the Norwich fans as they did was pretty foolish to me.

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Smudger, how would treating innocent fans like hooligans have changed what happened to you? I''m not condoning it, just saying.

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Smudger, how would treating innocent fans like hooligans have changed what happened to you? I''m not condoning it, just saying.

 

[/quote]Well I am pretty sure that this guy would of come out of the Compleat Angler.While I am not saying that this guy could of gone elsewhere and appeared from anywhere (especially seeing as he was apparently from Norwich), if it was Ipswich in town then more than likely we would have had their fans escorted from the main away pub and the train station to the ground would we not?  Also Norwich fans were pretty much escorted to and from Colchester''s ground a couple of months ago by a far heavier police presence than was at Carrow Road on Saturday.Who has the bigger reputation for hooligans over the years - Leeds, Norwich, Ipswich or Colchester?  Considering that the build up to this game meant there was just as likely to have been trouble as any game against Colchester United or Ipswich in recent years then how do you have such a difference in the policing of these games?  They were all bracketed as category C+ were they not, so surely whether you are an innocent away fan or not attending one of these games you should expect one of these category C+ matches to be policed in pretty much the same way wouldn''t you?So again why were Leeds fans allowed to mix so easily with the Norwich supporters on Saturday in view of the intelligence (or lack of it) that was open to the both the club and the police in the lead up to the match?

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We were (as usual), held back at the recent Millwall away game after the full-time whistle blew.....There were over 2,500 of us kept waiting whilst the Millwall fans vacated the New Den.....

I was quite impressed by the local police, who seemed to have got the process of shepherding the visiting support away safely and without any unrest or unruly behaviour......A mounted police officer with a  loudhailer - coupled with his very good sense of humour kept us entertained and interacted with the fans with good banter - whilst we waited until they opened the gates that take you straight to South Bermondsey railway station.

I suppose it can be mildly irritating in this day and age, to be held back and unable to do one''s own thing and make the journey home without being restricted by the police escort....Although, even after being held back at Millwall - I was still safely back in Norwich at a decent time....

I believe that being held back at the New Den was a more of a necessity and a safety issue - rather than a hindrance....and so don''t have an issue with it.

No problems vacating the stadiums away at Wycombe or Swindon etc....because there wasn''t (or isn''t) a perceived problem at these grounds - or the behaviour of the huge majority of both sets of supporters.

 

 

 

 

  

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Saying that - with the heavy police presence at Colchester focused on Norwich City fans that day - they failed to stop several locals/Colchester United fans kicking off at The Norfolk PH approx an hour after the game when it was abovious this would be one of the major areas for any flashpoint on the day and it takes approx one hour to get back in to Colchester from the ground after the match.

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[quote user="Mello Yello"]

We were (as usual), held back at the recent Millwall away game after the full-time whistle blew.....There were over 2,500 of us kept waiting whilst the Millwall fans vacated the New Den.....

I was quite impressed by the local police, who seemed to have got the process of shepherding the visiting support away safely and without any unrest or unruly behaviour......A mounted police officer with a  loudhailer - coupled with his very good sense of humour kept us entertained and interacted with the fans with good banter - whilst we waited until they opened the gates that take you straight to South Bermondsey railway station.

I suppose it can be mildly irritating in this day and age, to be held back and unable to do one''s own thing and make the journey home without being restricted by the police escort....Although, even after being held back at Millwall - I was still safely back in Norwich at a decent time....

I believe that being held back at the New Den was a more of a necessity and a safety issue - rather than a hindrance....and so don''t have an issue with it.

No problems vacating the stadiums away at Wycombe or Swindon etc....because there wasn''t (or isn''t) a perceived problem at these grounds - or the behaviour of the huge majority of both sets of supporters.

 

 

 

 

  

[/quote]Well said MELLO... that is twice this year away from home that we have been treated like criminals yet other clubs fans are allowed to get away with it so it seems... [Y]

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I did not really explain very well above MELLO.I also did not mind being held in at Millwall, even though I did think that they were a bit safety cautious in leaving us there a little too long.  Would rather be safe than sorry though and on the whole the day down there was policed very well indeed in my opinion.  Those who wanted trouble probably found it that day while the vast majority got to the match and home again with no worries at all.A lesson in how things should be done when the potential for trouble is there!

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Guess we shouldn''t forget that Leeds scum have a recent record of doing something similar to our near neighbours:

"08 January 2008

By Joe Shute

TWO Halifax football thugs were part of a Leeds United mob as a hail of missiles were launched at terrified disabled supporters, a court heard.

Nathan Addison, of St James Road, Halifax and Craig Spencer, of Exley Gardens, Exley, both 22, were part of a hard core group of 200 Leeds United fans who invaded the Elland Road pitch during the match which saw the club relegated last year.

Some of the 1,500 Ipswich supporters came under attack with a nine-year-old boy hit in the stomach by two coins and Katrina Hammond, a 17-year-old wheelchair-bound cerebral palsy sufferer, left in tears by the hooligans.

Michael Smith, prosecuting, told Leeds Crown Court yesterday, missiles including coins, lighters, bottles, match programmes and even a corner flag were used in the attack.

He said: "Officers and stewards formed a line protecting the Ipswich supporters.

"Disabled Ipswich fans were at pitch level and unable to leave as they were in wheelchairs, although they may not have been the intended recipient of the attack.

"One woman had to hide behind her husband''s wheelchair for protection and saw a lady, a cut under her eye, numb with fear."

The trouble happened during the game which ended with Leeds'' relegation to the third tier of English football last April.

Addison and Spencer were among 13 hooligans in court after admitting affray."

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" It is clearly not worth trying to discuss this subject with City1st. I had it confirmed by myself by two police officers the other day that the club is partly responsible for the level of policing."

smudger

" if it was decided/agreed that we needed horses in the City last Saturday or Terretorial Units then the the club would of funded that and not the tax payer " smudger

Absolute nonsense !

" the provision of consequential policing” outside a football match, for example at a railway station or in the city centre, is currently the responsibility of the police and is provided at their discretion and at a cost to them. Clubs do not have to pay for this “extra” service "

"when fans are moving to and fro between town centres, transport intersections, hubs and the ground, they are there as citizens rather than as spectators"

The Cost of Policing Football Matches

10th report 2008 -2009

With regard to the other nonsense about the club doing down the poor City fans by telling the police how many coppers will (or not) be on duty inside Carrow Road )

" Both the 1975 and 1987 Acts state explicitly that, where a condition within a safety certificate requires the attendance of police at an event, the number of police deployed is entirely a matter for the chief officer of police. All issues concerning the deployment of police officers within a sports ground are for the police themselves.

The safety certificate may require the certificate holder to notify the police of particular events and to consult them about their attendance in such numbers as the chief officer of police may determine. It may not direct the police to accede to such a request, nor may it prescribe their functions. "

Football Licensing Authority

Safety Certificate 2.8

(flaweb.org.uk)

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Smudger, holding fans in after the game wouldn''t have made any difference to what happened to you. Herding fans to and from the game only works for those who come by train or bus anyway. I didn''t go to Millwall this season but I have been to the New Den three times previously. When I went on the bus it virtually took us into the away stand and is right outside after the game to take you out. You don''t even see a Millwall fan because the segregation is so good. But another time I went in the car and we parked on the industrial estate and managed to get ourselves in and out of the ground without any bother. One local was a bit surprised to see us walking the streets showing colours but I never felt threatened. I would imagine there were a lot more City fans this season which is why the police thought there was a bigger potential for trouble. And I''m sure you and Mello are right that you felt safer because of it and it didn''t really cause you a problem.

Norwich and Leeds to have something in common though. We are both clubs with huge support from all over the country. We both have supporters groups all over the country and most away games are home games for many fans. We can have 1,000 fans at a place like Southampton with only a couple of hundred travelling from Norwich. Leeds are the same. This is probably why there were so many small groups of Leeds fans all over the city on Saturday.

I don''t know the answer to this but I don''t think it''s going back and treating away fans the way we were treated in the 70''s & 80''s. That just builds up frustration. If the Norwich fans had been asked to stay behind while the Leeds fans left in safety there would have been a lot more complaints on here.

 

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[quote user="norfolkbroadslim"]http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200809/cmselect/cmhaff/676/676.pdf[/quote]

Lets not forget that via football alot of tax gets paid:

 

Income tax of players and staff

NIC re players and staff

VAT on season tickets, casual tickets, booze, merchandise

VAT on Sky, Virgin Media subs. re sports packages

Corporation tax paid by some clubs

VAT on local beer sales to football fans

VAT and fuel duty when fans travel.

 

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Let''s get one thing straight....

Those who attend games in the pursuit of violence, confrontation, intimidation and altercation - certainly aren''t football fans.

They are a minority in this day and age of football support....with a minority of brain cells to boot, and some are individuals of an age who should really know better.

It is these people that are the crux of the problem - and therefore, spoil it for the rest of ''true passionate football fans''....

 

 

 

 

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And I agree with you mello. I walked back to the car park with a couple of leeds fans and they were fine. Disappointed, but fine. Leeds may have a larger minority of these braindead fans than us but the vast majority of Leeds fans are football supporters too.

Long day ahead, off to the cowshed.

 

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[quote user="Mello Yello"]

Let''s get one thing straight....

Those who attend games in the pursuit of violence, confrontation, intimidation and altercation - certainly aren''t football fans.

They are a minority in this day and age of football support....with a minority of brain cells to boot, and some are individuals of an age who should really know better.

It is these people that are the crux of the problem - and therefore, spoil it for the rest of ''true passionate football fans''....

 

 

 

 

[/quote]

Taking a reasoned argument is going to knock Smudgers "buy me a drink and I will tell you the story of when I was beaten senseless by a crowd of Leeds hooligans" (just wait)

It''s a lot better than the "when I confonted Wynn-Jones" story and should appear in umpteen threads from now until Christmas![:D]

As I said earlier, I walked to and from the game from the Nelson and never saw one bit of bother.

There was more mouth from some middle aged "city supporters" giving it big in the Upper Barclay(from a safe distance)

Mostly posturing with little substance.

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Smudger, holding fans in after the game wouldn''t have made any difference to what happened to you. Herding fans to and from the game only works for those who come by train or bus anyway. I didn''t go to Millwall this season but I have been to the New Den three times previously. When I went on the bus it virtually took us into the away stand and is right outside after the game to take you out. You don''t even see a Millwall fan because the segregation is so good. But another time I went in the car and we parked on the industrial estate and managed to get ourselves in and out of the ground without any bother. One local was a bit surprised to see us walking the streets showing colours but I never felt threatened. I would imagine there were a lot more City fans this season which is why the police thought there was a bigger potential for trouble. And I''m sure you and Mello are right that you felt safer because of it and it didn''t really cause you a problem.

Norwich and Leeds to have something in common though. We are both clubs with huge support from all over the country. We both have supporters groups all over the country and most away games are home games for many fans. We can have 1,000 fans at a place like Southampton with only a couple of hundred travelling from Norwich. Leeds are the same. This is probably why there were so many small groups of Leeds fans all over the city on Saturday.

I don''t know the answer to this but I don''t think it''s going back and treating away fans the way we were treated in the 70''s & 80''s. That just builds up frustration. If the Norwich fans had been asked to stay behind while the Leeds fans left in safety there would have been a lot more complaints on here.

 

[/quote]I was attacked outside the train station within fifteen minutes of the final whistle. Keeping fans locked in, has to at least limit the amount of attacks, especially on people who don''t want to be involved. I didn''t want a fight, so thought I''d get off home sharpish, before the Leeds fans were let out. I was amazed they weren''t kept in, as people keep pointing out, it is not out of the ordinary to keep fans in for a while after the game, and is in fact part and parcel of travelling away to watch football.

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[quote user="Fuglestad"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Smudger, holding fans in after the game wouldn''t have made any difference to what happened to you. Herding fans to and from the game only works for those who come by train or bus anyway. I didn''t go to Millwall this season but I have been to the New Den three times previously. When I went on the bus it virtually took us into the away stand and is right outside after the game to take you out. You don''t even see a Millwall fan because the segregation is so good. But another time I went in the car and we parked on the industrial estate and managed to get ourselves in and out of the ground without any bother. One local was a bit surprised to see us walking the streets showing colours but I never felt threatened. I would imagine there were a lot more City fans this season which is why the police thought there was a bigger potential for trouble. And I''m sure you and Mello are right that you felt safer because of it and it didn''t really cause you a problem.

Norwich and Leeds to have something in common though. We are both clubs with huge support from all over the country. We both have supporters groups all over the country and most away games are home games for many fans. We can have 1,000 fans at a place like Southampton with only a couple of hundred travelling from Norwich. Leeds are the same. This is probably why there were so many small groups of Leeds fans all over the city on Saturday.

I don''t know the answer to this but I don''t think it''s going back and treating away fans the way we were treated in the 70''s & 80''s. That just builds up frustration. If the Norwich fans had been asked to stay behind while the Leeds fans left in safety there would have been a lot more complaints on here.

 

[/quote]I was attacked outside the train station within fifteen minutes of the final whistle. Keeping fans locked in, has to at least limit the amount of attacks, especially on people who don''t want to be involved. I didn''t want a fight, so thought I''d get off home sharpish, before the Leeds fans were let out. I was amazed they weren''t kept in, as people keep pointing out, it is not out of the ordinary to keep fans in for a while after the game, and is in fact part and parcel of travelling away to watch football. [/quote]Exactly Fuglestad... [Y]Who knows, it may of even been the guy who hit me and abused sevral other City fans on his way to the game who should not of got anywhere near the ground let alone of been let out early to cause more havoc who got to you?You see your problem with your Nutty''s and Butler''s is that while they find it funny to get all lippy on here about events on Saturday, they certainly would not have been there to prevent any Leeds hooligans picking on people of all ages who just wanted to watch the football on Saturday.The kind of policing that we saw on Saturday will encourage people in Norfolk who have never been involved in trouble at football matches before to start looking out for themselves in future because they were not protected at all by the people who are paid good money to do it.

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No it''s not "Exactly Fugelstad".

I have already said that I don''t condone what happened to you or to Fuglestad but I don''t agree that 2000 fans should have been held back for half an hour because of the actions of the few. Those few should be punished in the same way as as similar offenders would be punished for their actions. What they did was not acceptable but it shouldn''t be treated  any different because it was before and after a football match. Branding all fans as hooligans is not the way forward in my book. But we can agree to differ about holding fans back without me being classed as lippy surely.

And why it''s not "exactly Fuglestad" is because holding away fans back for a while after the game is not part and parcel of travelling away to watch football. In fact the opposite is true in most cases where the stewards and police like to get you out and on your way as soon as possible. Football has moved on and over the last 10 years, in probably 150 away games I have attended, I have only been held back at ipswich. Last night I got home at 3:30am. I wouldn''t have got home ''til 4am if we''d been held back half an hour. I wouldn''t have been too happy if that happened because a few people couldn''t behave themselves.

 

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Nutty you conveniently overlook that there is no way of differentiating between fans. How could the Police operate a system whereby a certain few were allowed out and the miscreants held back ?

It would not be a blanket enforcement merely a something applied at a few games. There is however a suggestion that the police were aware of the Leeds fans likelihood of causing trouble yet did not atke the necessary action required.

Did they allow Leeds fans out for fear of the damage/injuries taht could vbe caused by holding them in the South stand. how many might have tried to exit via the pitch ? How many might have caused a crush withing the area near the exit gates ?

My suggestion would be to keep the ''holding back'' option but implement a far stricter enforcement should we play Leeds again. Monitor who has a ticket, enforce the restrictions on approaching a game without a ticket, as well as trying to enter a ground whilst drunk.

Whatever it costs the football league must clamop down now. Not wait till an ''incident'' occurs then hit every club.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

No it''s not "Exactly Fugelstad".

I have already said that I don''t condone what happened to you or to Fuglestad but I don''t agree that 2000 fans should have been held back for half an hour because of the actions of the few. Those few should be punished in the same way as as similar offenders would be punished for their actions. What they did was not acceptable but it shouldn''t be treated  any different because it was before and after a football match. Branding all fans as hooligans is not the way forward in my book. But we can agree to differ about holding fans back without me being classed as lippy surely.

And why it''s not "exactly Fuglestad" is because holding away fans back for a while after the game is not part and parcel of travelling away to watch football. In fact the opposite is true in most cases where the stewards and police like to get you out and on your way as soon as possible. Football has moved on and over the last 10 years, in probably 150 away games I have attended, I have only been held back at ipswich. Last night I got home at 3:30am. I wouldn''t have got home ''til 4am if we''d been held back half an hour. I wouldn''t have been too happy if that happened because a few people couldn''t behave themselves.

 

[/quote]Whether or not you or I agree with the policy, apparently keeping fans back for a short time is police policy for games where there might be trouble. Usually with Norwich City it is only Ipswich who are likely to cause major problems. Most matches there are no worries whatsoever. All I am saying is, if this is the policy then it should have been applied for a "six pointer" against a club like Leeds. It was obvious to anyone with any experience of football or Leeds fans that there would be problems. Norwich fans, on the whole do not act, and do not have a history of acting as Leeds fans did last week. Leeds United should be judged on their collective conduct and if some peace-loving fans have to be kept behind for twenty minutes, then that is the price they pay for following such a hideous club. If we play them again, I think they should be held back, with last weeks madness as justification. Twenty minutes inconvenience to avoid mass violence seems reasonable to me, assuming you have evidence to suggest that there is potential for violence. Which in the case of Leeds away from home, you do.If Leeds United''s peace-loving, non-violent fans are so horrendously inconvenienced by being held back after games, perhaps they should work towards ousting violent people from their club. They could identify culprits to the police, lobby the people who run the club to make a greater effort to control their travelling support, the fans association or whatever they have could appologise and condemn the actions of the minority of their fans last week. I think if people are happy to ignore the violence of a group they are part of they are in a way responsible and while I wouldn''t want them to be punished, inconvenience is reasonable, given that we do not live in a perfect world and certainly do not follow a perfect game.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Smudger, holding fans in after the game wouldn''t have made any difference to what happened to you. Herding fans to and from the game only works for those who come by train or bus anyway. I didn''t go to Millwall this season but I have been to the New Den three times previously. When I went on the bus it virtually took us into the away stand and is right outside after the game to take you out. You don''t even see a Millwall fan because the segregation is so good. But another time I went in the car and we parked on the industrial estate and managed to get ourselves in and out of the ground without any bother. One local was a bit surprised to see us walking the streets showing colours but I never felt threatened. I would imagine there were a lot more City fans this season which is why the police thought there was a bigger potential for trouble. And I''m sure you and Mello are right that you felt safer because of it and it didn''t really cause you a problem.

Norwich and Leeds to have something in common though. We are both clubs with huge support from all over the country. We both have supporters groups all over the country and most away games are home games for many fans. We can have 1,000 fans at a place like Southampton with only a couple of hundred travelling from Norwich. Leeds are the same. This is probably why there were so many small groups of Leeds fans all over the city on Saturday.

I don''t know the answer to this but I don''t think it''s going back and treating away fans the way we were treated in the 70''s & 80''s. That just builds up frustration. If the Norwich fans had been asked to stay behind while the Leeds fans left in safety there would have been a lot more complaints on here.

 

[/quote]

 

My Wife and son were abused  and I was threatened as I left the ground,walking around the back of the Barclay just by the Holiday Inn. A group of half a dozen pissed fat bast@rds who had all I imagine just come out of the ground, that wouldnt have happened to us  or many others if the fans had been  held back, even just for 15mins while the Norwichb support made it`s way from the ground. For me it`s a no brainer, for the sake of a small inconvenience to the away support a lot of problems could have been avoided. 

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