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Trouble after game

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[quote user="Smudger"]I agree with you Andy mate... never owned an item of Stone Island in my life.  Not so sure about double cuffs and cuff links for the terraces though either!  [;)]Oh and why should skinhead = hoolie?  Just because you are lucky enough to have a full curly barnet![/quote]I knew I would get my schmutter references all wrong! Bah! Don''t they wear Stone Island any more? What about those jackets with the goggles in?I don''t have you down as a hoolie really Smudger… well actually I might on first viewing, but as always, people are rarely like you imagine them to be. Don''t let that Michael Ball look I''ve got going on fool you either… underneath that ''Popular Entertainer'' facade, I''m all Danny Dire!!

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[quote]Don''t let that Michael Ball look I''ve got going on fool you either…

underneath that ''Popular Entertainer'' facade, I''m all Danny Dire!![/quote]Is that the look he wore in the musical "HairSpray" ?

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It would take some doing then 7rew. Not all the Leeds fans conveniently came on organised transport from Yorkshire. In that case it would be possible to march them to and from the coach parks and train station. What about the Norwich Whites? And groups from other parts of the country? Leeds, like Norwich, have a large fan base with supporters groups all over the country.

 

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[quote user="Andy Larkin"][quote user="Smudger"]

I agree with you Andy mate... never owned an item of Stone Island in my life. 

Not so sure about double cuffs and cuff links for the terraces though either!  [;)]

Oh and why should skinhead = hoolie?  Just because you are lucky enough to have a full curly barnet![/quote]

I knew I would get my schmutter references all wrong! Bah! Don''t they wear Stone Island any more? What about those jackets with the goggles in?

I don''t have you down as a hoolie really Smudger… well actually I might on first viewing, but as always, people are rarely like you imagine them to be.

Don''t let that Michael Ball look I''ve got going on fool you either… underneath that ''Popular Entertainer'' facade, I''m all Danny Dire!!


[/quote]

I''ve got a Harrington, a Pork Pie Hat and shades....

[8]Naughty boys in nasty schools
Headmasters breaking all the rules
Having fun and playing fools
Smashing up the woodwork tools
All the teachers in the pub
Passing ''round the ready-rub .....

[H]

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

From what I have read there was more trouble in Dereham than there was inside the ground.

 

[/quote]

I have spoken to a few friends who live near the pub they were drinking in and they said they didn''t hear about any fisty cuffs at all, just booze fueled banter and jeering from the Leeds fans.

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" At this point, the Police either accept what is suggested or indicate that greater numbers are required. This is, in fact, what happened with the Millwall game. The Club decided, in their infinite wisdom, that no Police were needed for this "low-risk" game. The Police refused to accept this and demanded a presence."

That''s contradictory monsense. Rather like Henry Ford''s ''you can have any colour as long as it''s black''. If the police have the final say then it is the police making the decision.

Sadly you have chosen to make up something I didn''t say then argue against that. My point has been about, as has pretty much EVERYONE else''s points, what happened away from the ground. Try reading my post.

Yes it is that simple. The piolice have a job to maintain law and order in a public place. Most others who hace posted on here feel like I do they they failed in that remit on saturday. Trying to slip in some attack upon the club suggests you have a wider agenda than debating the police''s behaviour OUTSIDE the ground on saturday.

It is not NCFC''s place to organise or decide how crowds are policed OUTSIDE of the ground. Nor is it their decisions as to how to how crowds are the police behave inside the ground. Try watching a fight in a pub when the police are called. It is the police who decides who is arrested, what happens next, in fact if the pub even stays open.

So have a difference of opinion about why the police choose to behave as they did but stop putting up silly claims that NCFC decides what happens along PoW Rd, outside the Compleat Angler, Riverside or any other public part of the city.

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[quote user="WeAreYellows49"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

From what I have read there was more trouble in Dereham than there was inside the ground.

 

[/quote]

I have spoken to a few friends who live near the pub they were drinking in and they said they didn''t hear about any fisty cuffs at all, just booze fueled banter and jeering from the Leeds fans.

[/quote]

I heard they didn''t dare kick off for fear of reprisals from the local crew led by our old mate Blah.....

 

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[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote]Don''t let that Michael Ball look I''ve got going on fool you either…

underneath that ''Popular Entertainer'' facade, I''m all Danny Dire!![/quote]Is that the look he wore in the musical "HairSpray" ?[/quote]No, his Caractacus Potts period.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="WeAreYellows49"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

From what I have read there was more trouble in Dereham than there was inside the ground.

 

[/quote]

I have spoken to a few friends who live near the pub they were drinking in and they said they didn''t hear about any fisty cuffs at all, just booze fueled banter and jeering from the Leeds fans.

[/quote]

I heard they didn''t dare kick off for fear of reprisals from the local crew led by our old mate Blah.....

 

[/quote]Me, my sister, wife and kid having Saturday lunch.Mind you, my sis does have a mean left hook...

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[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="WeAreYellows49"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

From what I have read there was more trouble in Dereham than there was inside the ground.

 

[/quote]

I have spoken to a few friends who live near the pub they were drinking in and they said they didn''t hear about any fisty cuffs at all, just booze fueled banter and jeering from the Leeds fans.

[/quote]

I heard they didn''t dare kick off for fear of reprisals from the local crew led by our old mate Blah.....

 

[/quote]

Hahaha local crew of chavs and grandads and nan''s, why they chose Dereham to stop at I have yet to fathom, it''s not exactly thriving lol it''s a small market town

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

It would take some doing then 7rew. Not all the Leeds fans conveniently came on organised transport from Yorkshire. In that case it would be possible to march them to and from the coach parks and train station. What about the Norwich Whites? And groups from other parts of the country? Leeds, like Norwich, have a large fan base with supporters groups all over the country.

 

[/quote]

Good point Nutty, but there was a large police presence on teh A47 at Hockering , pulling in Vans ( if i recall about 5 police on bikes) this was about 12.00 so maybe they we looking for yorkshire plated vans ( full of fans) and teh bikes would then escort all teh ay to the ground !

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[quote user="CharlieFarlie"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

It would take some doing then 7rew. Not all the Leeds fans conveniently came on organised transport from Yorkshire. In that case it would be possible to march them to and from the coach parks and train station. What about the Norwich Whites? And groups from other parts of the country? Leeds, like Norwich, have a large fan base with supporters groups all over the country.

 

[/quote]

Good point Nutty, but there was a large police presence on teh A47 at Hockering , pulling in Vans ( if i recall about 5 police on bikes) this was about 12.00 so maybe they we looking for yorkshire plated vans ( full of fans) and teh bikes would then escort all teh ay to the ground !

[/quote]

They were AVR bikes

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[quote user="Rock the Boat"][quote user="blahblahblah"][quote]To date we have not received any phone calls or e-mails from fans directly involved in incidents that took place especially the intimidation outlined on here after the game[/quote]

To date you probably haven''t asked for any either - but then the NCISA aren''t the police.  One thing I will say is that if this many people had shown concerns about management performance or results, the NCISA would have been asked for its opinion on the situation by now.


Maybe a first step toward establishing how bad this was, would be for EDP or EEN to run a story with Mr Tilson, explaining that he''s looking into this, and asking people to contact him if they felt policing was inadequate ?  It''s all very well writing this off as third hand message board nonsense, but there are a few clear facts that come from this and other threads.

  • Leeds fans were let out of the ground too early.  If this was due to violent conduct of fans, why hasn''t this been persued by the club ?

  • There was no segregation between Leeds and Norwich fans as they dispersed from the ground, in an area where heavy people traffic mingles with cars on roads after matches.

  • The police were congregating outside the Holiday Inn, and appeared more interested in protecting the Holiday Inn than protecting season ticket holders.

  • 2 or 3 first hand accounts of ABH have been recorded on threads in this forum since the match.

I would imagine that most people will not bother complaining - what will it get them ?  A crime number and a piece of paper perhaps.
[/quote]

Again, not really surprised by Mr. Tison''s answer. He''s quick enough to have a go at Delia, but when it comes to criticizing the policing of Staurday''s game he wants to distance himself. Tilly are you accusing people making up these stories? Do you think it didn''t happen? And shouldn''t NCISA be pro-active in looking after something as crucial as fans'' safety?

After all the football related horrors of the past couple of decades, I''m surprised you are standing around waiting for phone calls,

 

[/quote]

I have asked people to provide first hand evidence for it to be progressed.Broad brush remarks suggesting i want to distance myself and suggesting that i am accusing people of making it up are well wide of the mark Rock the Boat

If the weight of evidence given to NCISA is such that a meeting is warranted between us and the Police and NCFC officials i will be asking for one rest assured.

 

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[quote user="TIL 1010"]

I have asked people to provide first hand evidence for it to be progressed.Broad brush remarks suggesting i want to distance myself and suggesting that i am accusing people of making it up are well wide of the mark Rock the Boat

If the weight of evidence given to NCISA is such that a meeting is warranted between us and the Police and NCFC officials i will be asking for one rest assured.

[/quote]To be fair, all you can do in the circumstances is work out whether there is an issue regarding public safety.  If the majority of people feel that there isn''t, then there''s not much NCISA need to do.  I find the suggestion that the police might somehow being playing brinkmanship with public safety over money disturbing to say the least, but if that view is not widely held, then there''s nothing to see here.

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[quote user="City1st"]" At this point, the Police either accept what is suggested or indicate that greater numbers are required. This is, in fact, what happened with the Millwall game. The Club decided, in their infinite wisdom, that no Police were needed for this "low-risk" game. The Police refused to accept this and demanded a presence." That''s contradictory monsense. Rather like Henry Ford''s ''you can have any colour as long as it''s black''. If the police have the final say then it is the police making the decision. Sadly you have chosen to make up something I didn''t say then argue against that. My point has been about, as has pretty much EVERYONE else''s points, what happened away from the ground. Try reading my post. Yes it is that simple. The piolice have a job to maintain law and order in a public place. Most others who hace posted on here feel like I do they they failed in that remit on saturday. Trying to slip in some attack upon the club suggests you have a wider agenda than debating the police''s behaviour OUTSIDE the ground on saturday. It is not NCFC''s place to organise or decide how crowds are policed OUTSIDE of the ground. Nor is it their decisions as to how to how crowds are the police behave inside the ground. Try watching a fight in a pub when the police are called. It is the police who decides who is arrested, what happens next, in fact if the pub even stays open. So have a difference of opinion about why the police choose to behave as they did but stop putting up silly claims that NCFC decides what happens along PoW Rd, outside the Compleat Angler, Riverside or any other public part of the city.[/quote]

I am astonished by some of your comments. Whilst I agree totally with some of them, I have to ask on others, "what World are you living in?". Contradictory nonsense? It is fact. This is what happens. Do you think the Police have gone to the Club and said "for the Stockport game, there will be 50 officers on duty at the ground?". No, it is done in discussion with the Police having the ultimate say. I agree that the Police failed badly. Try at least reading some of MY posts. I have said so on more than one occasion. I do not have a wider agenda but it should be perfectly obvious to anyone that the Club has embarked on a programme of cost-cutting this season which, on occasions, has resulted in customer (supporter) safety being compromised. This is not acceptable and should be fought against. Again, try reading MY posts. Where have I said that NCFC decides what happens along PoW Road, outsisde the Compleat Angler, Riverside or any other part of the city? To think something like that would just be silly.

 

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It is contradictory nonsense as you seem to be unable to grasp that if the police have the last say then it matters little what the club says about policing. That is pretty much black and white.

Again ALL the discussion has been about trouble OUTSIDE the ground yet you keep putting up this idiotic guff about policing IN the ground.

You claim there is tension between the police and the club. Please provide eveidence. You state that the club did not want any police at the Millwaal game. Again evidence please. You even contradict yourself by saying that the club''s supposed wish was overruled by the police - so where then, your claim that the club decides police levels and in a cost cutting measure they have reduced the police levels. How can that be ? Where is your proof that " cost-cutting this season which, on occasions, has resulted in customer (supporter) safety being compromised."

Finally as almost ALL the trouble being discussed on here relates to incidents OUTSIDE the ground how could the club''s supposed low level of policing have any concerns in these matters.

You''ve posted up snide accusations with no evidence. No proof of any supposed refusal of Archant to cover this matter being a result of one of their chaps being on the board.

So why not accept that trouble outside of the ground is beyond any NCFC control. Your smears, without anything to substain them, are that, smears.

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[quote user="City1st"]It is contradictory nonsense as you seem to be unable to grasp that if the police have the last say then it matters little what the club says about policing. That is pretty much black and white. Again ALL the discussion has been about trouble OUTSIDE the ground yet you keep putting up this idiotic guff about policing IN the ground. You claim there is tension between the police and the club. Please provide eveidence. You state that the club did not want any police at the Millwaal game. Again evidence please. You even contradict yourself by saying that the club''s supposed wish was overruled by the police - so where then, your claim that the club decides police levels and in a cost cutting measure they have reduced the police levels. How can that be ? Where is your proof that " cost-cutting this season which, on occasions, has resulted in customer (supporter) safety being compromised." Finally as almost ALL the trouble being discussed on here relates to incidents OUTSIDE the ground how could the club''s supposed low level of policing have any concerns in these matters. You''ve posted up snide accusations with no evidence. No proof of any supposed refusal of Archant to cover this matter being a result of one of their chaps being on the board. So why not accept that trouble outside of the ground is beyond any NCFC control. Your smears, without anything to substain them, are that, smears.[/quote]

Why then, weren''t the Leeds crowd held back in the stadium after full-time?....Who''s decision was it allow them out at the same time that home supporters were leaving? Norfolk Police? NCFC Stewarding.....or, did the Leeds support - just steamroller past the stewards and Police?..... Anyone know?

One would have thought that the alleged altercations, confrontations and posturing of ''certain elements'' of both sets of fans before the game, would have flagged up a slight possibility of further problems at full-time. Alcohol is served at half-time in all the refreshment concourses in the stadium, therefore, allowing ''certain elements'' to ''top themselves up''..... 

Don''t we now employ a chap that was previously a head of security at Celtic? What''s his perception of the events on Saturday - and was there a stadium broadcast informing the away support that they would be held back whilst the home fans departed?

Whatever occurs away from the area of the Stadium isn''t the responsibility of NCFC....but personally, I would have thought that the warning signs were evident during the build-up before the game....

Allowing the ''non-confrontational'' home fans to disperse before the away support vacated the stadium, would have been of sound reason and good judgement.

Maybe, someone in authority just thought there wouldn''t be a problem?....

 

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[quote user="Mello Yello"]Allowing the ''non-confrontational'' home fans to disperse before the away support vacated the stadium, would have been of sound reason and good judgement.[/quote]Were you "confrontational" Mello.......or didn''t you have your keyboard with you?[:^)][;)]

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[quote user="lappinitup"][quote user="Mello Yello"]Allowing the ''non-confrontational'' home fans to disperse before the away support vacated the stadium, would have been of sound reason and good judgement.[/quote]Were you "confrontational" Mello.......or didn''t you have your keyboard with you?[:^)][;)][/quote]

I have now....Do you want some!"

 

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[quote user="lappinitup"][quote user="Mello Yello"]Allowing the ''non-confrontational'' home fans to disperse before the away support vacated the stadium, would have been of sound reason and good judgement.[/quote]Were you "confrontational" Mello.......or didn''t you have your keyboard with you?[:^)][;)][/quote]

I have now...."Do you want some!"

 

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[quote user="Mello Yello"]

[quote user="lappinitup"][quote user="Mello Yello"]Allowing the ''non-confrontational'' home fans to disperse before the away support vacated the stadium, would have been of sound reason and good judgement.[/quote]Were you "confrontational" Mello.......or didn''t you have your keyboard with you?[:^)][;)][/quote]

I have now...."Do you want some!"

 

[/quote]

There''s three of us.....

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[quote user="Mello Yello"][quote user="Mello Yello"]

[quote user="lappinitup"][quote user="Mello Yello"]Allowing the ''non-confrontational'' home fans to disperse before the away support vacated the stadium, would have been of sound reason and good judgement.[/quote]Were you "confrontational" Mello.......or didn''t you have your keyboard with you?[:^)][;)][/quote]

I have now...."Do you want some!"

 

[/quote]

There''s three of us.....

[/quote]

Good luck Mello as i hear that Lappinitup is one of a litter of ten..........Grrraaah,woof,woof.

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A penny worth. Someone on one of the threads mentioned that the walk up Carrow rd toward Lower Clarence and thorpe rd after the game was like a morgue. Correct yes, reason? Fear, simple fear. They were all around us and no one had any idea who was about to start. I walked up there and a good example of broken britain was there staring straight through me just daring me to look back (ok i''ve no colours and got a skinhead, not by choice by the way). I kept on walking toward the Coach and Horses.On the Junction of Carrow rd and Lower Clarence there must have been near on 100 of them waiting, just looking for something. And one policeman, and one policewoman (is it still ok to say policewoman?). That was it. Hundreds of men, women and children walking past that. Great. Well played. No, there will be no flood of evidence about what happened, no, the article that appeared on the EDP website with the bill congratulating themselves that strangely disappeared will be forgotten. But the kids who got scared won''t forget.And Archant. The Leeds fans were taunting us about being kept in for ''their'' safety. Where is the article asking why they weren''t kept in? Simple question chaps. 

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[quote user="TIL 1010"][quote user="Mello Yello"][quote user="Mello Yello"]

[quote user="lappinitup"][quote user="Mello Yello"]Allowing the ''non-confrontational'' home fans to disperse before the away support vacated the stadium, would have been of sound reason and good judgement.[/quote]Were you "confrontational" Mello.......or didn''t you have your keyboard with you?[:^)][;)][/quote]

I have now...."Do you want some!"

 

[/quote]

There''s three of us.....

[/quote]

Good luck Mello as i hear that Lappinitup is one of a litter of ten..........Grrraaah,woof,woof.

[/quote]

I thought he was just being a silly runt....

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[quote user="City1st"]It is contradictory nonsense as you seem to be unable to grasp that if the police have the last say then it matters little what the club says about policing. That is pretty much black and white. Again ALL the discussion has been about trouble OUTSIDE the ground yet you keep putting up this idiotic guff about policing IN the ground. You claim there is tension between the police and the club. Please provide eveidence. You state that the club did not want any police at the Millwaal game. Again evidence please. You even contradict yourself by saying that the club''s supposed wish was overruled by the police - so where then, your claim that the club decides police levels and in a cost cutting measure they have reduced the police levels. How can that be ? Where is your proof that " cost-cutting this season which, on occasions, has resulted in customer (supporter) safety being compromised." Finally as almost ALL the trouble being discussed on here relates to incidents OUTSIDE the ground how could the club''s supposed low level of policing have any concerns in these matters. You''ve posted up snide accusations with no evidence. No proof of any supposed refusal of Archant to cover this matter being a result of one of their chaps being on the board. So why not accept that trouble outside of the ground is beyond any NCFC control. Your smears, without anything to substain them, are that, smears.[/quote]

Please at least attempt to understand what I have written. Where have I said that the Club decides Police levels? It is well known that the Club is trying to reduce costs and one of the things targeted is payment for Police services. How many times have you seen in past seasons no police at all inside the ground? How many times have you seen it this season? I obtain "evidence" by talking to and questioning people in positions of authority. I have today received a reply from the Chief Executive of Norfolk Police requesting me to attend a meeting where the concerns that I have raised will be addressed. Certain information I have asked for under the Freedom of Information Act is being collated. Clearly, I think you will agree, there were a lot of things that went badly wrong on Saturday. I will find out why.

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Bit of useless hearsay via someone who works in the ground but there was also meant to be several Millwall fans at the ground. I heard that this often happens (obvious really) when Leeds play in the capital, i guess we''re close enough for those wanting a bit of trouble. I don''t have a lot of faith in the police generally, and it seems like their football intelligence may also be lacking. Have I missed coverage of any of this in the local press? I''m not too up to date this week but I haven''t heard of any, which surprises me because even from what I''ve read on this forum seems to be newsworthy especially compared to some of the non-news they regularly rehash. 

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[quote user="Webbo118"]

[quote user="City1st"]It is contradictory nonsense as you seem to be unable to grasp that if the police have the last say then it matters little what the club says about policing. That is pretty much black and white. Again ALL the discussion has been about trouble OUTSIDE the ground yet you keep putting up this idiotic guff about policing IN the ground. You claim there is tension between the police and the club. Please provide eveidence. You state that the club did not want any police at the Millwaal game. Again evidence please. You even contradict yourself by saying that the club''s supposed wish was overruled by the police - so where then, your claim that the club decides police levels and in a cost cutting measure they have reduced the police levels. How can that be ? Where is your proof that " cost-cutting this season which, on occasions, has resulted in customer (supporter) safety being compromised." Finally as almost ALL the trouble being discussed on here relates to incidents OUTSIDE the ground how could the club''s supposed low level of policing have any concerns in these matters. You''ve posted up snide accusations with no evidence. No proof of any supposed refusal of Archant to cover this matter being a result of one of their chaps being on the board. So why not accept that trouble outside of the ground is beyond any NCFC control. Your smears, without anything to substain them, are that, smears.[/quote]

Please at least attempt to understand what I have written. Where have I said that the Club decides Police levels? It is well known that the Club is trying to reduce costs and one of the things targeted is payment for Police services. How many times have you seen in past seasons no police at all inside the ground? How many times have you seen it this season? I obtain "evidence" by talking to and questioning people in positions of authority. I have today received a reply from the Chief Executive of Norfolk Police requesting me to attend a meeting where the concerns that I have raised will be addressed. Certain information I have asked for under the Freedom of Information Act is being collated. Clearly, I think you will agree, there were a lot of things that went badly wrong on Saturday. I will find out why.

[/quote]

As a matter of interest Webbo who is "the Chief Executive of Norfolk Police" because i don''t think that position exists.Can you tell us what info you have requested under the Freedom of Info Act. I for one am being blinded with science here.I have spoken twice in the last three days to Bethel Street Police Station and no meeting has been mentioned.

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[quote user="The gut"]

Bit of useless hearsay via someone who works in the ground but there was also meant to be several Millwall fans at the ground. I heard that this often happens (obvious really) when Leeds play in the capital, i guess we''re close enough for those wanting a bit of trouble. I don''t have a lot of faith in the police generally, and it seems like their football intelligence may also be lacking. Have I missed coverage of any of this in the local press? I''m not too up to date this week but I haven''t heard of any, which surprises me because even from what I''ve read on this forum seems to be newsworthy especially compared to some of the non-news they regularly rehash. 

[/quote]

Do you honestly think with Millwall playing in their own backyard on the same day in the middle of their own promotion push they would come 100 miles to the Norwich v Leeds game? As you say a useless bit of hearsay.

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[quote user="City1st"]It is contradictory nonsense as you seem to be unable to grasp that if the police have the last say then it matters little what the club says about policing. That is pretty much black and white.

Again ALL the discussion has been about trouble OUTSIDE the ground yet you keep putting up this idiotic guff about policing IN the ground.

You claim there is tension between the police and the club. Please provide eveidence. You state that the club did not want any police at the Millwaal game. Again evidence please. You even contradict yourself by saying that the club''s supposed wish was overruled by the police - so where then, your claim that the club decides police levels and in a cost cutting measure they have reduced the police levels. How can that be ? Where is your proof that " cost-cutting this season which, on occasions, has resulted in customer (supporter) safety being compromised."

Finally as almost ALL the trouble being discussed on here relates to incidents OUTSIDE the ground how could the club''s supposed low level of policing have any concerns in these matters.

You''ve posted up snide accusations with no evidence. No proof of any supposed refusal of Archant to cover this matter being a result of one of their chaps being on the board.

So why not accept that trouble outside of the ground is beyond any NCFC control. Your smears, without anything to substain them, are that, smears.[/quote]It is clearly not worth trying to discuss this subject with City1st.I had it confirmed by myself by two police officers the other day that the club is partly responsible for the level of policing.ie - if it was decided/agreed that we needed horses in the City last Saturday or Terretorial Units then the the club would of funded that and not the tax payer.  If you would like to find evidence of this I am sure that it is available to you online.

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