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Trouble after game

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[quote user="morty"]It serves no one to highlight hooligan issues. We all know it goes on but would just rather pretend it doesn''t.[/quote]This should be dealt with, and the club and police should put measures in place to ensure that people feel safe when getting to and leaving the ground.  It is incredibly short sighted to think that by cutting back on a few quid on overtime, you are making a saving.  It only takes one very bad incident, someone getting run over on the junction outside, or a fight that gets out of hand, to do serious damage to the "affordable family football" image that the club have tried very hard to create.  What if Leeds get promoted with us, and we get an early season home fixture with them ?  Grudges are remembered, more trouble is caused, more families drift away as they don''t feel safe, and the club loses the revenue from the ticket sales, shirt, etc.  It''s a slippery slope, and simply pretending it didn''t happen will just allow it to get worse.

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[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="morty"]It serves no one to highlight hooligan issues. We all know it goes on but would just rather pretend it doesn''t.[/quote]This should be dealt with, and the club and police should put measures in place to ensure that people feel safe when getting to and leaving the ground.  It is incredibly short sighted to think that by cutting back on a few quid on overtime, you are making a saving.  It only takes one very bad incident, someone getting run over on the junction outside, or a fight that gets out of hand, to do serious damage to the "affordable family football" image that the club have tried very hard to create.  What if Leeds get promoted with us, and we get an early season home fixture with them ?  Grudges are remembered, more trouble is caused, more families drift away as they don''t feel safe, and the club loses the revenue from the ticket sales, shirt, etc.  It''s a slippery slope, and simply pretending it didn''t happen will just allow it to get worse.[/quote]I completely agree, but my point is that no one in the press is interested in running with these stories as it makes everyone look bad. The club, the police, the fans, the FA, everyone. You can bet your bottom dollar that there is crowd trouble at nearly every ground in the country most Saturdays, but we would all rather just pretend its not happening rather than go back to the dark old days.

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Why should Archant or other members of the Press be coy with reporting on this just in case it upsets the club or the police? They should be out there, pulling together all the eyewitness accounts of trouble happening and questioning the police on why they chose to ignore these in their comments the next day.Of course it may turn out that all of these incidents have been exaggerated to some degree, but that shouldn''t stop Archant from finding out either way...

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[quote user="TIL 1010"][quote user="Rock the Boat"]

I really am shocked that three days after the unruly events at Carrow Road where many old people, disabled and children were attacked and abused by the Leeds fans, we haven''t had a squeak out of NCISA in the form of John Tilson.

Is not the police complacancy a matter that concerns NSISA, or is it as another poster suggested, that ex-PC Tilson puts his mates first.

I''d have thought that this is exactly the kind of issue, fans safety, that would be at the forefront of NCISA''s priorities. Their silence tells us another story, in my opinion.

[/quote]

The first point i will make absolutely clear is that THIS POST IS NOT A NCISA STATEMENT but a post from me as a messageboard contributor.

I have read every single post and every single thread concerning the events of Saturday and it is silly to suggest that the issues raised will be ignored or glossed over by NCISA but in order for it to be progressed factual evidence must be provided.To date we have not received any phone calls or e-mails from fans directly involved in incidents that took place especially the intimidation outlined on here after the game.It must be obvious that NCISA cannot proceed with messageboard posts many of which contain third hand hearsay information.I ask that those who wish NCISA to approach the Norfolk Constabulary on their behalf contact me at J.TILSON@SKY.COM with their complaints.

I have spoken to PC Andy King yesterday for his initial take on events and made him aware of the posts and threads on the Pink Un and will be speaking to him again tomorrow.I did say that i expect the Police will receive a number of complaints over the next few days from innocent bystanders going to and especially from the game.What he did say was that the more colourful stories doing the rounds involving stabbings and damage at the ground by Leeds fans was well wide of the mark.

I hope this shows that NCISA is and will continue to liase with the Police and fans over this episode.

[/quote]

 

Bloody hell Tilly, you''ll be trying to pretend that you''re not the Antichrist next.........

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[quote user="Smudger"] I… skinhead…fisticuffs… wear gear that is cool?[/quote]Personally I think that football clobber is as uncool as you can get. What is cool about looking like every other skinhead/hoolie?A nice Thomas Pink with an Oxford collar, double cuff and sliver cufflinks looks classier than a chunky knit sweater with "Stone Island" emblazoned across it IMO. Combine your ''Pink'' with a comfortable pair of moleskin slacks, some clipped Grensons and a classic long Crombie for the essential "Gentleman at Leisure" look favoured by the select few.[:D]

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[quote user="Andy Larkin"][quote user="Smudger"] I… skinhead…fisticuffs… wear gear that is cool?[/quote]

Personally I think that football clobber is as uncool as you can get. What is cool about looking like every other skinhead/hoolie?

A nice Thomas Pink with an Oxford collar, double cuff and sliver cufflinks looks classier than a chunky knit sweater with "Stone Island" emblazoned across it IMO.

Combine your ''Pink'' with a comfortable pair of moleskin slacks, some clipped Grensons and a classic long Crombie for the essential "Gentleman at Leisure" look favoured by the select few.

[:D]
[/quote]

Of course there are skinheads by choice and skinheads by neccessity.......

 

Just gotta say that I love my Crombie from back in the 70''s. Right down to the fake red hankie on a piece of cardboard stuffed in the top pocket. Smart "Suedies" we were[H]

 

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[quote]To date we have not received any phone calls or e-mails from fans

directly involved in incidents that took place especially the

intimidation outlined on here after the game[/quote]
To date you probably haven''t asked for any either

- but then the NCISA aren''t the police.  One thing I will say is that

if this many people had shown concerns about management performance or

results, the NCISA would have been asked for its opinion on the

situation by now.

Maybe a first step toward establishing how bad this was, would be for

EDP or EEN to run a story with Mr Tilson, explaining that he''s looking

into this, and asking people to contact him if they felt policing was

inadequate ?  It''s all very well writing this off as third hand message

board nonsense, but there are a few clear facts that come from this and

other threads.

  • Leeds fans were let out of the ground too

    early.  If this was due to violent conduct of fans, why hasn''t this been

    persued by the club ?

  • There was no segregation between Leeds and

    Norwich fans as they dispersed from the ground, in an area where heavy

    people traffic mingles with cars on roads after matches.

  • The police were congregating outside the Holiday Inn, and appeared more interested in

    protecting the Holiday Inn than protecting season ticket holders.

  • 2 or 3 first hand accounts of ABH have been

    recorded on threads in this forum since the match.

I would imagine that most people will not bother

complaining - what will it get them ?  A crime number and a piece of

paper perhaps.

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[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote]To date we have not received any phone calls or e-mails from fans directly involved in incidents that took place especially the intimidation outlined on here after the game[/quote]

To date you probably haven''t asked for any either - but then the NCISA aren''t the police.  One thing I will say is that if this many people had shown concerns about management performance or results, the NCISA would have been asked for its opinion on the situation by now.


Maybe a first step toward establishing how bad this was, would be for EDP or EEN to run a story with Mr Tilson, explaining that he''s looking into this, and asking people to contact him if they felt policing was inadequate ?  It''s all very well writing this off as third hand message board nonsense, but there are a few clear facts that come from this and other threads.

  • Leeds fans were let out of the ground too early.  If this was due to violent conduct of fans, why hasn''t this been persued by the club ?

  • There was no segregation between Leeds and Norwich fans as they dispersed from the ground, in an area where heavy people traffic mingles with cars on roads after matches.

  • The police were congregating outside the Holiday Inn, and appeared more interested in protecting the Holiday Inn than protecting season ticket holders.

  • 2 or 3 first hand accounts of ABH have been recorded on threads in this forum since the match.

I would imagine that most people will not bother complaining - what will it get them ?  A crime number and a piece of paper perhaps.
[/quote]

Blah x 3 in my post i have asked people to e-mail me and i think the irony in some of what you say is that on one hand you say that most people will not bother complaining to the police but you also suggest that NCISA has been found wanting by not asking for complaints.I find it interesting that this thread has had almost 21,000 views and 156 posts running to eleven pages but by your own admission there have been only 2 or 3 first hand reports of assault.

This is not being dismissive of events but if action is to be taken people must come forward with first hand evidence and i suggest Bethel Street is the first port of call.

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Attending the match on Saturday was like a bad trip down memory lane (Mansfield football matches in the late 70''s) so I was a bit surprised at seeing the Police congratulating themselves afterwards.

Taking my normal route to games, we cut through the Cathedral Close and emerged on Prince of Wales Road to see a large number of Police, along with dogs and vans on both sides of the bridge. Someone was being put in the back of a Police van under arrest and we realised that a large contingent of vocal Leeds supporters were heading off from the Compleat Angler to the ground. Normally we''d walk along the river to the ground, but a dog handler and couple of other Police stopped us and made us join the main group of supporters - mostly Leeds fans from the Compleat Angler. This was apparently to keep us from a ''flashpoint'' on Riverside - but sending us into the group of Leeds fans didn''t strike me as being very protective of our safety.

At the end of the game I assumed the Leeds fans would be kept behind but seeing what looked like a move to the exits in the Jarrold decided not to stay and savour the atmosphere but to make sharp exit. If it is true that they were asked to remain behind, but were able to ignore the request then this surely requires further investigation. The club should be able to confirm what went out over the PA system.

Given the number and range of reports it is surprising to me that Archant haven''t followed this up more. I am also concerned that a return to the Championship may see more occasions like this. I would like to think that the Police would learn lessons and adopt a more differentiated approach. The experience of Saturday was a throw back to a bygone era where you either fended for yourself at matches or were all treated as a public nuisance.

Whilst there is a danger of rumours replacing facts and over-hyping this, there does seem to be enough anecdotal evidence to warrant further investigation into Saturday afternoons events.

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[quote]This is not being dismissive of events but if action is to be

taken

people must come forward with first hand evidence and i suggest Bethel

Street is the first port of call.[/quote]
I thoroughly agree that Bethel street should be the first port of call - but given the attitude that some say the police have taken towards the event, I suggest that most will not bother to follow up on what are minor offences in the main - and that''s why Leeds fans get away with it - it''s nuisance value, the perpetrators are untraceable if they commit an offence out of the ground unless they are arrested on the spot, and the offences are in the eyes of most, not worth the paperwork.  However - the NCISA is an Independent Supporters Organisation.  Any Organisation that is independent and works for the supporters should have an interest in establishing whether getting to the ground and leaving the ground is a safe experience for supporters - especially on days like a Leeds match, where they have a reputation - would the club get away as lightly in a division with Millwall, Cardiff, and Leeds next season ?   Not to mention Ipswich.  Get those 4 at home over a 2 or 3 months spell, and you can easily see a drip-drip feed of negative experiences / publicity on the horizon.[quote]I find it interesting that this thread has had almost 21,000 views

and 156 posts running to eleven pages but by your own admission there

have been only 2 or 3 first hand reports of assault.[/quote]
The 21,000 views probably come from no more than 500 viewers at a guess - I''m always popping into threads after a couple of posts to see what has been said, I''m sure others are the same.

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Now I''m not doubting any of these accounts of what happened before and after the game and it''s common knowledge that Leeds have a larger "undesirable element" (again for want of a better word) than most clubs in this league. But there was also a larger police presence than we have seen for most clubs in this league. To segregate the fans in the way some folk want would probably involve taking away the liberties of all the Leeds fans. Something which we suffered back in the80''s and which took away much of the enjoyment of away games. There was much more of a police presence at Carrow Roiad on Saturday than there was at Elland Road in October.

My season ticket is at the back of Lower Barclay Block E and consequently unless I leave early I am usually one of the last out of the ground. But after I finally got out, and had a little chat with Leeds, Beaus and CTID outside the hotel, I walked to the car park on Clarence Road chatting to a couple of Leeds fans who were happy to chat with me even though they were obviously disappointed.

I for one do not want to go back to the days where innocent fans are herded to and from football grounds like animals.

The only criticism I would make of the police is from the statement where they said “It''s fair to say that the game attracted factions from both clubs that we don''t want to see at football matches.” If they knew this why didn''t they do something about it?


 

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I was out in the city from early 11.00,popping home to thorpe for 10 mins,then stood out side ground,barclay waiting for other mate,from 2ish and after match walked out again waited near the leeds coming out,while waiting for mate who had upper seat(why do they take so long???),and home and out at 7.30ish Prince of wales rd till early doors sunday,and all i saw and knew from mates telling me who i trust,was Group of norwich men thinking it was the 80`s at midday/a mouthing match between to sides of the road near compleat/a fat norwich man being restrained by friends.i guess a leeds group walked past and spat but dont know,outside barclay,and after while standing near leeds fans,Nothing! only verbal like"go f your sister" type thing while walking away and in the presence of police..I agree that there were some i thankfully missed,but if this constitutes a "bad" match  then im LMAO!

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Smudger you are off your head if you are suggesting that it is the club who decides what level of policing there is at a game. Check with who decides on kick off times.

I know there are certain people on here who for their own reasons will grab at any stick they think can be used to beat the club with, but in this case they are wrong.

It is the behaviour of the police that is the problem not who funds the police. Events outside the Compleat Angler, the railway station, Morrisons and along Riverside are a matter of public order and fall solely within the remit of the police. Likewise along Lower Clarence Road and Yarmouth Road.

I saw a number of incidents near to the station and outside the Nelson pub after the game in which the police appeared disinterested. Those places DO NOT fall within the provence of NCFC''s influence.

The police could not have been unaware of the high possibilty for ''public disorder'' with Leeds fans visiting Norwich. The question that needs to be asked is what was behind their decision to operate a low key policing tactic on the day.

My concern is that they will be very reluctant to open up to anything for fear of possible litigation ie I got my teeth knocked out on the day the police ordered that no preventative action should be taken (example).

I think it is a measure of the police''s attitude that they neede to issue a statement so soon after the game. It appears their view is one of preparing for a major incident and so do nothing that might be construed as provoking it or having officers tied up with arrests that would require numerous officers back at Bethel Street when they might be needed dealing with the major incident.

The numerous incidents of fans being kicked, punched or spat at would have to be accepted as collateral damage as part of the bigger picture !

This might be excusable in reponse to an unexpected breakdown in order. It is not acceptable in regard to Saturday.

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[quote user="Barclaybred"]

I was out in the city from early 11.00,popping home to thorpe for 10 mins,then stood out side ground,barclay waiting for other mate,from 2ish and after match walked out again waited near the leeds coming out,while waiting for mate who had upper seat(why do they take so long???),and home and out at 7.30ish Prince of wales rd till early doors sunday,and all i saw and knew from mates telling me who i trust,was Group of norwich men thinking it was the 80`s at midday/a mouthing match between to sides of the road near compleat/a fat norwich man being restrained by friends.i guess a leeds group walked past and spat but dont know,outside barclay,and after while standing near leeds fans,Nothing! only verbal like"go f your sister" type thing while walking away and in the presence of police..I agree that there were some i thankfully missed,but if this constitutes a "bad" match  then im LMAO!

[/quote]

A translation of this into some sort of English would be helpful !

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The silence form both the Club and Archant on this matter is deafening. Spot the common denominator. And they said it wouldn''t happen!

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[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote]To date we have not received any phone calls or e-mails from fans directly involved in incidents that took place especially the intimidation outlined on here after the game[/quote]

To date you probably haven''t asked for any either - but then the NCISA aren''t the police.  One thing I will say is that if this many people had shown concerns about management performance or results, the NCISA would have been asked for its opinion on the situation by now.


Maybe a first step toward establishing how bad this was, would be for EDP or EEN to run a story with Mr Tilson, explaining that he''s looking into this, and asking people to contact him if they felt policing was inadequate ?  It''s all very well writing this off as third hand message board nonsense, but there are a few clear facts that come from this and other threads.

  • Leeds fans were let out of the ground too early.  If this was due to violent conduct of fans, why hasn''t this been persued by the club ?

  • There was no segregation between Leeds and Norwich fans as they dispersed from the ground, in an area where heavy people traffic mingles with cars on roads after matches.

  • The police were congregating outside the Holiday Inn, and appeared more interested in protecting the Holiday Inn than protecting season ticket holders.

  • 2 or 3 first hand accounts of ABH have been recorded on threads in this forum since the match.

I would imagine that most people will not bother complaining - what will it get them ?  A crime number and a piece of paper perhaps.
[/quote]

Again, not really surprised by Mr. Tison''s answer. He''s quick enough to have a go at Delia, but when it comes to criticizing the policing of Staurday''s game he wants to distance himself. Tilly are you accusing people making up these stories? Do you think it didn''t happen? And shouldn''t NCISA be pro-active in looking after something as crucial as fans'' safety?

After all the football related horrors of the past couple of decades, I''m surprised you are standing around waiting for phone calls,

 

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[quote]I for one do not want to go back to the days where innocent fans are

herded to and from football grounds like animals[/quote]You got that from my use of the word segregation I''m guessing.  Probably a bad word to use.  If the Leeds fans had been held back, then they would have been separated from the majority of the Norwich fans going home.Isn''t it often the case that the first people to complain about their human rights being abused, are generally the first to abuse the human rights of others ?

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[quote user="City1st"]Smudger you are off your head if you are suggesting that it is the club who decides what level of policing there is at a game. Check with who decides on kick off times. I know there are certain people on here who for their own reasons will grab at any stick they think can be used to beat the club with, but in this case they are wrong. It is the behaviour of the police that is the problem not who funds the police. Events outside the Compleat Angler, the railway station, Morrisons and along Riverside are a matter of public order and fall solely within the remit of the police. Likewise along Lower Clarence Road and Yarmouth Road. I saw a number of incidents near to the station and outside the Nelson pub after the game in which the police appeared disinterested. Those places DO NOT fall within the provence of NCFC''s influence. The police could not have been unaware of the high possibilty for ''public disorder'' with Leeds fans visiting Norwich. The question that needs to be asked is what was behind their decision to operate a low key policing tactic on the day. My concern is that they will be very reluctant to open up to anything for fear of possible litigation ie I got my teeth knocked out on the day the police ordered that no preventative action should be taken (example). I think it is a measure of the police''s attitude that they neede to issue a statement so soon after the game. It appears their view is one of preparing for a major incident and so do nothing that might be construed as provoking it or having officers tied up with arrests that would require numerous officers back at Bethel Street when they might be needed dealing with the major incident. The numerous incidents of fans being kicked, punched or spat at would have to be accepted as collateral damage as part of the bigger picture ! This might be excusable in reponse to an unexpected breakdown in order. It is not acceptable in regard to Saturday.[/quote]

The World is about to end - I now find myself defending Smudger! As already posted, I don''t think it is simple as you suggest. I believe the Club decides what level of policing is required for each game and then advises the Police accordingly. At this point, the Police either accept what is suggested or indicate that greater numbers are required. This is, in fact, what happened with the Millwall game. The Club decided, in their infinite wisdom, that no Police were needed for this "low-risk" game. The Police refused to accept this and demanded a presence.

I wholeheartedly agree that what happened on Saturday was an absolute disgrace and the statement from Supt Smerdon was an insult. I believe the Police numbers were far too low, the majority that were there were ineffectively deployed and there appeared to be a general reluctance to get involved in what they are paid to do, i.e. policing. Any idiot can stand and watch in a group with a smile on the face.

  

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The Leeds fans could have and should have been kept in for 10 - 15 minutes after the game, the police have always managed to hold away fans back in the past without an issue, I would suggest that the number of police in the away end at the final whistle was kept at a bare minimum to show the powers that be at the club that the stewards couldn''t cope therefore promoting the cause of the old bill that they should be there. As we all know almost all games this season have been police free which has cost Norfolk Constabulary a fair few quid in lost revenue. If you remember at the start of the season one chief superindendant was stating in the local papers that his forece would need a bigger presence at games but the club didn''t play ball due to the high cost of policing.

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[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote]This is not being dismissive of events but if action is to be

taken

people must come forward with first hand evidence and i suggest Bethel

Street is the first port of call.[/quote]
I thoroughly agree that Bethel street should be the first port of call - but given the attitude that some say the police have taken towards the event, I suggest that most will not bother to follow up on what are minor offences in the main - and that''s why Leeds fans get away with it - it''s nuisance value, the perpetrators are untraceable if they commit an offence out of the ground unless they are arrested on the spot, and the offences are in the eyes of most, not worth the paperwork.  However - the NCISA is an Independent Supporters Organisation.  Any Organisation that is independent and works for the supporters should have an interest in establishing whether getting to the ground and leaving the ground is a safe experience for supporters - especially on days like a Leeds match, where they have a reputation - would the club get away as lightly in a division with Millwall, Cardiff, and Leeds next season ?   Not to mention Ipswich.  Get those 4 at home over a 2 or 3 months spell, and you can easily see a drip-drip feed of negative experiences / publicity on the horizon.[quote]I find it interesting that this thread has had almost 21,000 views

and 156 posts running to eleven pages but by your own admission there

have been only 2 or 3 first hand reports of assault.[/quote]
The 21,000 views probably come from no more than 500 viewers at a guess - I''m always popping into threads after a couple of posts to see what has been said, I''m sure others are the same.

[/quote]Well I have been to Bethel Street this morning and have my Crime Number (just like you say Blah).  I don''t expect too much to happen - as apparently a Leeds fan who witnessed more than he says he did saw the said individual in the ground and enjoying the match (until we went 1-0 up), even though the police said that they were issuing him with a Section 27 banning order from the City Centre for the afternoon.  If this is the case then it just goes to show yet more inept policing that afternoon.What would have happened if our paths had of crossed again after the match?I also went in to Archant to see why they had not run a report that followed this one http://www.edp24.co.uk/content/edp24/news/story.aspx?brand=EDPOnline&category=News&tBrand=EDPOnline&tCategory=xDefault&itemid=NOED28%20Mar%202010%2014%3A00%3A07%3A953 with the many conflicting views from City fans to those given by Supt Jim Smerdon the day after the game.

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[quote user="wedgie"]

The Leeds fans could have and should have been kept in for 10 - 15 minutes after the game, the police have always managed to hold away fans back in the past without an issue, I would suggest that the number of police in the away end at the final whistle was kept at a bare minimum to show the powers that be at the club that the stewards couldn''t cope therefore promoting the cause of the old bill that they should be there. As we all know almost all games this season have been police free which has cost Norfolk Constabulary a fair few quid in lost revenue. If you remember at the start of the season one chief superindendant was stating in the local papers that his forece would need a bigger presence at games but the club didn''t play ball due to the high cost of policing.

[/quote]

Exactly right on every point made. Some may say that they believe the Police are not too pleased with the Club over the events of this season and were attempting to prove a point by doing the bare minimum.

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[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote]I for one do not want to go back to the days where innocent fans are herded to and from football grounds like animals[/quote]

You got that from my use of the word segregation I''m guessing.  Probably a bad word to use.  If the Leeds fans had been held back, then they would have been separated from the majority of the Norwich fans going home.

Isn''t it often the case that the first people to complain about their human rights being abused, are generally the first to abuse the human rights of others ?
[/quote]

No mate, I got that from being treated like that in the past. I am not condoning the incidents that happened although it seems a lot of them took place away from the ground. But there were a couple of thousand Leeds fans at the game and I would suggest the vast majority managed to get themselves to and from the stadium without causing anyone any problems.

If the police were aware of undesirable factions from both sides they would have been better served dealing with them.

Anyway - must dash there''s an article on the front page I don''t want to miss[;)]

 

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[quote user="Andy Larkin"][quote user="Smudger"] I… skinhead…fisticuffs… wear gear that is cool?[/quote]Personally I think that football clobber is as uncool as you can get. What is cool about looking like every other skinhead/hoolie?A nice Thomas Pink with an Oxford collar, double cuff and sliver cufflinks looks classier than a chunky knit sweater with "Stone Island" emblazoned across it IMO. Combine your ''Pink'' with a comfortable pair of moleskin slacks, some clipped Grensons and a classic long Crombie for the essential "Gentleman at Leisure" look favoured by the select few.[:D][/quote]I agree with you Andy mate... never owned an item of Stone Island in my life.  Not so sure about double cuffs and cuff links for the terraces though either!  [;)]Oh and why should skinhead = hoolie?  Just because you are lucky enough to have a full curly barnet!

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[quote user="Webbo118"]

[quote user="City1st"]Smudger you are off your head if you are suggesting that it is the club who decides what level of policing there is at a game. Check with who decides on kick off times. I know there are certain people on here who for their own reasons will grab at any stick they think can be used to beat the club with, but in this case they are wrong. It is the behaviour of the police that is the problem not who funds the police. Events outside the Compleat Angler, the railway station, Morrisons and along Riverside are a matter of public order and fall solely within the remit of the police. Likewise along Lower Clarence Road and Yarmouth Road. I saw a number of incidents near to the station and outside the Nelson pub after the game in which the police appeared disinterested. Those places DO NOT fall within the provence of NCFC''s influence. The police could not have been unaware of the high possibilty for ''public disorder'' with Leeds fans visiting Norwich. The question that needs to be asked is what was behind their decision to operate a low key policing tactic on the day. My concern is that they will be very reluctant to open up to anything for fear of possible litigation ie I got my teeth knocked out on the day the police ordered that no preventative action should be taken (example). I think it is a measure of the police''s attitude that they neede to issue a statement so soon after the game. It appears their view is one of preparing for a major incident and so do nothing that might be construed as provoking it or having officers tied up with arrests that would require numerous officers back at Bethel Street when they might be needed dealing with the major incident. The numerous incidents of fans being kicked, punched or spat at would have to be accepted as collateral damage as part of the bigger picture ! This might be excusable in reponse to an unexpected breakdown in order. It is not acceptable in regard to Saturday.[/quote]

The World is about to end - I now find myself defending Smudger! As already posted, I don''t think it is simple as you suggest. I believe the Club decides what level of policing is required for each game and then advises the Police accordingly. At this point, the Police either accept what is suggested or indicate that greater numbers are required. This is, in fact, what happened with the Millwall game. The Club decided, in their infinite wisdom, that no Police were needed for this "low-risk" game. The Police refused to accept this and demanded a presence.

I wholeheartedly agree that what happened on Saturday was an absolute disgrace and the statement from Supt Smerdon was an insult. I believe the Police numbers were far too low, the majority that were there were ineffectively deployed and there appeared to be a general reluctance to get involved in what they are paid to do, i.e. policing. Any idiot can stand and watch in a group with a smile on the face.

  

[/quote]

Policing ''in the ground'''' is paid for and decided by the club, however, ''''outside the ground'''' is down to the Police to decide.

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

From what I have read there was more trouble in Dereham than there was inside the ground.

[/quote]If that is the case, then that would be because people just weren''t expecting hundreds of Leeds fans there.  I was there at lunchtime on Saturday and didn''t see any trouble as such, but that would have been before the beer and the defeat had sunk in.  When I was in the Phoenix the look on most Leeds fans faces was that of people out to enjoy a game, but wary of their own reputation, cautious if you like of upsetting the locals.  It may have been slightly different in the Red Lion however [:)]

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote]I for one do not want to go back to the days where innocent fans are herded to and from football grounds like animals[/quote]You got that from my use of the word segregation I''m guessing.  Probably a bad word to use.  If the Leeds fans had been held back, then they would have been separated from the majority of the Norwich fans going home.Isn''t it often the case that the first people to complain about their human rights being abused, are generally the first to abuse the human rights of others ?[/quote]

No mate, I got that from being treated like that in the past. I am not condoning the incidents that happened although it seems a lot of them took place away from the ground. But there were a couple of thousand Leeds fans at the game and I would suggest the vast majority managed to get themselves to and from the stadium without causing anyone any problems.

If the police were aware of undesirable factions from both sides they would have been better served dealing with them.

Anyway - must dash there''s an article on the front page I don''t want to miss[;)]

 

[/quote]Err, Nigel, those days of marshalling away fans still exist for a large number of clubs.  Away fans are definately marched to old trafford surrounded by the fuzz.A spurs fan I know says they get bussed to the stadium at stoke from the station. Given the walk, I was quite jealous.We don''t experience that as we have no rep for being "up for it!"

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