Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
First Wizard

If Southend go bust?

Recommended Posts

[quote user="AVFC-NCFC"]

Are you saying that if Southend go into liquidation we and everyone else that has played them would lose the points they won against them but people who haven''t played them get 3 points? If so this is the biggest bullsh!t rule i have ever heard.

[/quote]No, you are getting mixed up.  People are talking about 2 scenarios if the club is wound up:

1) All their results are void. 

2) However, someone has put the arguement that the games already played should still stand, and for the fixtures that they can''t play, the opponent should be given 3 points.

It is only one or the other, not a combination of them both like you stated.  The official rules opt for scenario 1, it is just people on this board that are suggesting scenario 2 as it would be better for Norwich.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Oh sorry. Leeds won''t lose 6 points because they havent played them and beat them twice?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="AVFC-NCFC"]How is it going to affect us either way?[/quote]Scenario 1, we lose 5 more points than Leeds.  Scenario 2, we lose 2 more points than Leeds.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="dhickl"][quote user="AVFC-NCFC"]How is it going to affect us either way?[/quote]Scenario 1, we lose 5 more points than Leeds.  Scenario 2, we lose 2 more points than Leeds.[/quote]

So its still bullshat that it works out that way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Having been described as a ''habitual defaulter'' by HRMC I don''t think any leeway will be granted to Southend, just as no leeway was granted to Chester who had been in adminstration before. If they get wound up in April, which isn''t at all unlikely, there will be no Southend United as a business or a team, they will cease to be and will not be able to finish the season. Thats it. The courts won''t give a damn how late in the season it is.

In Chester''s case, the motion was tabled by the league executives to throw Chester out of the league and expunge their results. This needed 75% of teams in the conference''s vote to pass and they got it. I imagine League 1 will follow a similar model should the same happen to Southend.

The only example I can think of a team finishing the seaason while completely insolvent is Gretna in the SPL. Even then they had to take out adverts in the local paper to try and get people to play for free. I doubt that the football league would allow that to happen though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If they do go out and it endagers our chances of promotion in any way then we should buy their best player (s) so they can pay up.

Oh we have no money either.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Does anyone - neutral - really understand the subtleties of this one? As an outsider and non-accountant it looks to me like Southend paid over £2 million to the HMRC but are disputing a further £200,000. Surely whoever came up with the £2million wouldn''t have done so if they thought it was possible the club would go under for the sake of 10% on top of that? And aren''t the club allowed to appeal against what they believe is an incorrectly calculated tax demand without being taken down? Having said that, the comments from the registrar, who presumably knows what she''s doing, sound pretty damning.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="Nuff Said"]Does anyone - neutral - really understand the subtleties of this one? As an outsider and non-accountant it looks to me like Southend paid over £2 million to the HMRC but are disputing a further £200,000. Surely whoever came up with the £2million wouldn''t have done so if they thought it was possible the club would go under for the sake of 10% on top of that? And aren''t the club allowed to appeal against what they believe is an incorrectly calculated tax demand without being taken down? Having said that, the comments from the registrar, who presumably knows what she''s doing, sound pretty damning.
[/quote]I think that they would be able to pay it.  Imagine the following situation:

You get your electricity bill, it''s an estimate.  You check the meter and you work out how much you think you need to pay, and it comes to £200.  The electricity company then say that they have now read the meter and you actually owe them £220.  You say they have made a mistake, and that you only owe them £200.  They will not do any checks and will not accept anything less that £220.  You disagree, and they then tell you that if you don''t pay up they will take you to court.  You go to court and state your case, then you are told you have 35 days to prove you are right or pay up. 

That''s the situation that Southend are in.  The club believe that they are being charged too much tax and they are disputing it.  They do have cash flow issues, and so they are fighting every claim for money.  You have to remember that season ticket revenue is coming in now too, so that helps the cash situation - but it doesn''t look good for next year!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="Cestrian Canary"]Pablo - if you look into the background of Chester''s owner (Stephen Vaughan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Vaughan,_Sr.) you will see why not many fans wanted to give money to the club and why only 425 turned up to their last game! In a twisted way many Chestyre fans were happy to see the club go to the wall as they reclaimed it as their own.[/quote]

That explains it, thanks. Will a new club be started up in Chester, at a new ground then?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Taken from their message board today:

According to this court report someone sent me (I assume it''s accurate) that''s exactly what it is - £228K plus £183K

Fw: HIGH COURT COPY FROM UK LAW NEWS



League One side Southend United were today given one final chance to pay debts of more than £400,000 to the taxman - all thanks to supermarket giants Sainsbury''s.
Mrs Registrar Derrett adjourned the winding up moves brought against the club by Her Majesty''s Revenue and Customs for 35 days to give it time to settle their debts of ££410,000, after hearing that a new stadium and retail development with Sainsbury''s is set to come to fruition after years of planning.
Counsel Matthew Smith for HMRC had argued that the club should be wound up today, arguing that it was a "habitual defaulter" which is "plainly insolvent".
He said that the club had failed to take the steps it promised at the previous hearing a month ago, and had now failed to pay an additional £183,000 in VAT and PAYE on top of the original £228,000 debt.
He added that the local press had reported that staff had not been paid.
However, counsel for the club - who declined to give her name - said that Southend was a football club that "actually has proper plans for recapitalisation". She said that the club''s problems had been caused by the "banking crisis", which had delayed the new stadium and retail development deal with Sainsbury''s.
However, she said that it has now secured all necessary planning permissions from the Government, and should enable the club to pay all its debts within 28 days.
She said that there is £60,000 in the club''s solicitor''s account for immediate payment to the taxman, and that a sponsor is providing a further £170,000 on 31 March.
She added that the club is also entering a period of high seasonal turnover, from mid-March to May, at which time £800,000 to £1million is brought in by season ticket sales for next season.
She said: "This isn''t like the usual football club, where we are waiting for third party to come in as white knight."
She said that the deal had enabled the club to pay £2.1million last November, and would benefit both the club and the taxman in the long term, and added that staff are set to be paid on Monday.
"It is just beginning to see light at the end of the tunnel," she said.
Granting the adjournment, the Registrar said that the only thing making her hesitate about winding the club up was the development, "which looks like it has gone some way down the road".
She said: "What isn''t clear to me is whether there is a real prospect of that providing sufficient means to properly refinance this company.
"But I will adjourn for 35 days. That is a final adjournment for settlement in full."
Had the club been wound up today, its affairs would have been effectively handed over to an Official Receiver.
His job is then to do his best to ensure that debts are paid off by selling any assets available and then bringing business to a close.

"She said that the club''s problems had been caused by the "banking crisis", which had delayed the new stadium and retail development deal with Sainsbury''s.
However, she said that it has now secured all necessary planning permissions from the Government, and should enable the club to pay all its debts within 28 days"

So we only got a reprieve because we said we had got planning permission for the new stadium. That was a year ago wasn''t it?

I can''t see how we are going to get out of this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I''d imagine there would be some sort of litigation if a team didn''t go up, or got relegated, as a result of a late points adjustment. A liquidation takes time, so it may happen after the end of the season if the liquidator believes more revenue can be gained by playing the last few matches. You could sack all the staff except a few, sell the ground and other assets but play a reserve team to fulfill fixtures and get in more gate, catering and advertising money for those last few games. So while I am  not an expert I would have thought that there will be enough lag between the court order and actually ceasing to trade. Both Woolworths and Borders had sales for a few weeks before the stores were shut and the process of selling assets and realising cash can be a long one.

But can you imagine having gained auto promotion, playing the youngsters last few games which you believe to be meaningless and then finding out after all that you are in the play offs having sent your first team on holiday...........................................or getting relegated when you though you''d survived by one point because you had happended to take more points off Southend?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just find the whole situation with lower league clubs financial difficulties totaly unfair when you get players like John Terry being paid £150,000 a week. We are starting to get to the point where teams that have been about for generations are in danger of going out of business because they owe a sum which adds upto a few weeks wages for these overpaid toss*rs in the premier league.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Southend have one owner, Ron Martin a property developer, who set his heart on making a mint out of Roots Hall and moving to a new ground at Fossets Farm. His companies own RH and he got the money to pay the £2.1m from Sainsbury''s as an advance on RH where they will build a store. There is a covenant on RH that the supermarket cannot be built until the new stadium is open. RM held back £200k to HMRC because he said there was a calc error by HMRC- basically he was 200k short. Meanwhile the players haven''t been paid since last year (PFA helping out a bit). He has alledgedly been spending all the income from Eastwood, Man Utd, Chelsea, Barnard etc on planning his nest egg of FF of which he owns the land too. He cannot take them into admin because he will be the main loser. Cut to the court case last week and HMRC poured scorn on his wrong calc claim and then after labelling them ''clearly insolvent'' and ''a serial defaulter'' were only the knock of a gable from liquidating them. HMRC then demanded payments that will become due in April to be added on their next court date amounting to £410k otherwise it is curtains. Even then if they pay that they have no assets, any assets used come from RM''s companies and have been swallowed up in planning etc. So who is to say that they will be able to save themselves next time the tax is due. Also in the court they said they would be able to pay as they will get £180k from ST sales in March for next season. Unlike Norwich where next seasons ST money is in the bank do they really expect Southend fans to stump up £500 to a club that could be liquidated?

The lastest yesterday was that a consortium offered RM ''7 to 8 figures'' for his club. He declined preferring to sweat it out and realise his nest egg (the RH and FF developments) for retirement. There is a real, real chance they could be liquidated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Magnificent Seven"]

Southend have one owner, Ron Martin a property developer, who set his heart on making a mint out of Roots Hall and moving to a new ground at Fossets Farm. His companies own RH and he got the money to pay the £2.1m from Sainsbury''s as an advance on RH where they will build a store. There is a covenant on RH that the supermarket cannot be built until the new stadium is open. RM held back £200k to HMRC because he said there was a calc error by HMRC- basically he was 200k short. Meanwhile the players haven''t been paid since last year (PFA helping out a bit). He has alledgedly been spending all the income from Eastwood, Man Utd, Chelsea, Barnard etc on planning his nest egg of FF of which he owns the land too. He cannot take them into admin because he will be the main loser. Cut to the court case last week and HMRC poured scorn on his wrong calc claim and then after labelling them ''clearly insolvent'' and ''a serial defaulter'' were only the knock of a gable from liquidating them. HMRC then demanded payments that will become due in April to be added on their next court date amounting to £410k otherwise it is curtains. Even then if they pay that they have no assets, any assets used come from RM''s companies and have been swallowed up in planning etc. So who is to say that they will be able to save themselves next time the tax is due. Also in the court they said they would be able to pay as they will get £180k from ST sales in March for next season. Unlike Norwich where next seasons ST money is in the bank do they really expect Southend fans to stump up £500 to a club that could be liquidated?

The lastest yesterday was that a consortium offered RM ''7 to 8 figures'' for his club. He declined preferring to sweat it out and realise his nest egg (the RH and FF developments) for retirement. There is a real, real chance they could be liquidated.

[/quote]This could well affect your club now then?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The whole thing with Chester went on for months... They started the season -30 points, already in administration, and in a load of other trouble. It''s taken until about a week ago for them to FINALLY be wound up.. I can''t see Southend being wound up before the season starts. They are a team in the football league. Pompey are in a total state, yet they manage to keep going.. Something always happens.. Chester was a case of "we can do no more to help".. All the fans hated the owner, players were refusing to get on the bus to go to games, they were still in minus points and going down, they were just a total mess.. Southend can still stay up this season. As much as "it could happen", it won''t.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks MS, that clarifies it. Does Ron Martin have any history as a Southend supporter or is he just a speculator?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

salary capping and proper shared revenue (those at the bottom get more cash than those at the top) are the only way to go.

Footballs had its head up its backside for too long now and needs to wake up.

I wonder what would happen if Man utds debt was suddenly called in? im willing to bet the league would pay the money to save them....

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...