Just Back From The Huckerby Dinner....

[Jacko 0]

Some interesting observations from the great man....

1. What we all suspected really. Against Fulham a lot of players chucked it in because in his own words it suited many players for us to go down so they got better moves. I think Francis is the prime candidate there.

2. Roeder tried to send him out on loan two months before the end of the season where he was released. Before he could tell his kids he had been released it was on SSN. What a nasty piece of work.

3. Nobody understood in the dressing room why Malky Mackay was sold and no adequate replacement brought in.

4. If we had bought Ashton in the summer we would have been alright.

Really enjoyable night all in all. Can''t afford myself but the matchday club could be good.

[Woman in the Stands (WITS) 0]

Thanks for these insights - you lucky guy! Wish I could have been there to see the man himself in his suit [:)]That''s awful about the way the news was released. I know we fans were gutted to hear the way Hucks had left the club but for his children to hear it like that is truly dreadful. That epitomises Roeder and his total lack of sensitivity or diplomacy. Nobody in the stands understood why Malky was sold either

[Smudger 0]

(1)  Please explain how playing for Wigan and Watford in the Premiership is any better than plaing for Norwich City in the Prem?(2)  You must really try and stop blaming Mr Roeder for our relegation and focus on the real culprits - do not forget that we would have almost certainly been relegated 12 months earlier if it wasn''t for Mr Roeder.(3)  Nobody with an ounce of sense in the stands could understand why we released Malky when we did at the time either.  In hindsight we should of kept Iwan also (a goal or two in 10/15 min spells off the bench could of been the difference between relegation and survival).(4)  Again as Hucks as hinted towards before - the real culprits for our failures in recent years were far too tight with the cash upon promotion until it was too late.  I guess we will have to wait until the coming season to see if they have learnt anything or not?

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,735]

Ref. point one - Whilst that may have been the case regarding Francis, that doesn''t really explain why that team put the effort in to win something like 4 out of 6 prior to that match to put themselves in that position at Fulham on the last day. Seems a little strange that having done all of that, that they would then jack it all in on the last day?

  What is ironic though is that is was only really Francis from that side who actually did go on to get a "better" move in the following summer!, at least Green stayed another season, whilst Ashton remained ''loyal'' until January.

[Smudger 0]

[quote user="Woman in the Stands WITS"]Thanks for these insights - you lucky guy! Wish I could have been there to see the man himself in his suit [:)]That''s awful about the way the news was released. I know we fans were gutted to hear the way Hucks had left the club but for his children to hear it like that is truly dreadful. That epitomises Roeder and his total lack of sensitivity or diplomacy. Nobody in the stands understood why Malky was sold either [/quote]The only suit that you and City Angel would of been hoping to see Hucks in would of been his Birthday Suit! [:P]

[Jacko 0]

I thought the story he told about Thierry Henry coming up to him and saying ''Huckerby you are a very good player'' after the second Arsenal game was a nice touch as well. No wonder Liverpool were after him that summer.

[Woman in the Stands (WITS) 0]

[quote user="Smudger"][quote user="Woman in the Stands WITS"]Thanks for these insights - you lucky guy! Wish I could have been there to see the man himself in his suit [:)]That''s awful about the way the news was released. I know we fans were gutted to hear the way Hucks had left the club but for his children to hear it like that is truly dreadful. That epitomises Roeder and his total lack of sensitivity or diplomacy. Nobody in the stands understood why Malky was sold either [/quote]The only suit that you and City Angel would of been hoping to see Hucks in would of been his Birthday Suit! [:P][/quote]Damn - you got me sussed [;)]

[Jacko 0]

[quote user="Smudger"](1)  Please explain how playing for Wigan and Watford in the Premiership is any better than plaing for Norwich City in the Prem?
(2)  You must really try and stop blaming Mr Roeder for our relegation and focus on the real culprits - do not forget that we would have almost certainly been relegated 12 months earlier if it wasn''t for Mr Roeder.
(3)  Nobody with an ounce of sense in the stands could understand why we released Malky when we did at the time either.  In hindsight we should of kept Iwan also (a goal or two in 10/15 min spells off the bench could of been the difference between relegation and survival).
(4)  Again as Hucks as hinted towards before - the real culprits for our failures in recent years were far too tight with the cash upon promotion until it was too late.  I guess we will have to wait until the coming season to see if they have learnt anything or not?


[/quote]

Not my opinions Smudge. Just thought people would find it interesting to see what a key player at the time thought of our Premier League experience. He pinpointed our failure to win any of our opening 13 matches as the key. We got 8 draws in that time but some of them could have been wins.

[The gut 0]

If my memory serves me right, nearly every supporter I spoke to thought Malky would not be good enough for the premiership, but no one wanted him to leave. I think it was wrong to get rid but was understandable.

[nutty nigel 7,506]

That''s how I remember it too The Gut. But the opening post doesn''t criticise selling Malky, the criticism is selling him without an adequate replacement being bought. Smudger then goes on to say Malky was released which of course is a myth. Malky asked to go and was sold. If the Primus deal hadn''t fallen through I doubt this would have been an issue.

 

[Jacko 0]

The important question is during the opening part of the season would you rather have had Simon Charlton or Malky Mackay at the back? I know what I would have prefered.....

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,735]

I remember going to a supporters forum attended by Worthington a few weeks before the start of the Premiership season, when he was convinced that Simon Charlton would do the job a central defence. When asked about his lack of height Worthington said something along the lines of "We''ve looked at all of the sides in the premier league -and Duncan Ferguson/Everton aside -nobody plays with a big striker". ....didn''t quite work out, that one!

[The gut 0]

I''m with ya nutty, post was really just a discussion about smudgers "understanding" comment. I think it was virtually the same with Iwan, sort of. Most seem to have thought, at the time, that we needed someone better but didn''t want him to go, therefore wanting him on the bench.

[Jacko 0]

Given that Gary Doherty played up front for a while (I know he got one goal at Newcastle) would playing Iwan up there have been a better shout?

The big difference between Iwan and Malky was that Malky was regular starter. Whereas as Iwan wasnt.

[Houston Canary 0]

Proximity to London or Manchester could make WIgan or Watford better than playing at NCFC if you consider yourself a playboy who needs that sort of ego massage, Smudge. It was McKenzie or Francis that kept on about spending time in London whenever possible.

I''m no football maven, but I find it odd that teams promoted to the Prem go about changing as much of themselves as possible before the season begins when they just won or placed well in Championship. Why throw away the winning style and players? Okay, bring in SOME extra help, but come on, you just had a great season with the fellows you did have. Grantedm part of the recipe for success were loans that we could not sign, but the players we brought in didn''t help anywhere near as much as the loans did the previous year.

I think McKay played for 3 or 4 consecutive promotion sides as he kept getting traded after helping a team to the Prem until Watford let him stay on. Thanks for getting us promoted, now bugger off.

I may be wrong, but I think only 1 player we brought in after promotion ever played in the Prem post-Norwich, Ashton. The rest faded away.

[The gut 0]

I thought Francis moved for doin a JT on Leon''s missus.

[nutty nigel 7,506]

It''s strange how we remember things. My greatest criticism of Worthy was that he never seemed to have a plan B in the transfer market. He would identify the player he wanted and expect the board to get his man. But it was always a theme that if for some reason we didn''t get him we seemed to go without. This certainly happened with Primus. Everything pointed to him coming here. He was not only a commanding defender but was a leader with a good character. He was just the player to replace Malky but Mandaric broke his oiwn rules by offering Primus more money to stay. And that was that! Malky organised himself a move to West Ham because he couldn''t be guaranteed first team football. Charlton played centre half and played well early season. The stats will show Charlton and Fleming as the best pair that season and we had some good defensive performances and it was lack of a goal scorer why we waited for so long for that first win.

 

[Evil Monkey 52]

[quote user="Houston Canary"]

I may be wrong, but I think only 1 player we brought in after promotion ever played in the Prem post-Norwich, Ashton. The rest faded away.[/quote]Ashton, Francis and Bentley... but given that two of them have now retired injured and one struggles to get a game each week, your point remains valid.I agreed that Malky wouldn''t have cut it in the Premiership when he was told he was surplus to requirements, but with hindsight I wonder if he might have ''done a job'' on a few occasions, certainly in some of the lower-table clashes... we''ll never know, of course, so its all speculation at this stage, but he did get a few games with Watford and that was about 2 or 3 years after we''d let him go...

[Houston Canary 0]

Sorry for not being clear, EM, but I meant players we purchased, not got on loans, so Bentley does not count. Wasn''t Francis with us before promotion? My access to NCFC at that time was very limited but I thought we had him already.

As for your comments on MacKay, EXACTLY why he should not have been dropped. We were not going up expecting to finish top 6, we were hoping for survival, and some wins against teams we could have and should have beaten would have been the difference. Imagine the difference if we had beaten CRystAl Palace that 1st game. You can''t spell Crystal Palace without CRAP.

[Block E Buh 0]

It wasn''t just Francis, he hinted at Jonson and Helveg and said he expected more from International players that had played in Europe. If that team against Fulham had really tried they could have won that day!

He still seemed upset still, that he went to Doomcaster saying he wanted to release a statement so the fans new he wasn''t staying and after being refused Roeder informed Sky Sports News that he was being released only 5 mins later without telling him first! But he didn''t slag Roeder off, he just said it could have been handled better. I think Hucks had kept his dignity!

Top bloke, really enjoyed the night!

[Smudger 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

It''s strange how we remember things. My greatest criticism of Worthy was that he never seemed to have a plan B in the transfer market. He would identify the player he wanted and expect the board to get his man. But it was always a theme that if for some reason we didn''t get him we seemed to go without. This certainly happened with Primus. Everything pointed to him coming here. He was not only a commanding defender but was a leader with a good character. He was just the player to replace Malky but Mandaric broke his oiwn rules by offering Primus more money to stay. And that was that! Malky organised himself a move to West Ham because he couldn''t be guaranteed first team football. Charlton played centre half and played well early season. The stats will show Charlton and Fleming as the best pair that season and we had some good defensive performances and it was lack of a goal scorer why we waited for so long for that first win.

 

[/quote]Ahh but this is where your tale of what happened falls apart Nutty.You state that Malky could not get in the team because we signed the amazing Simon Charlton.  The fact that we were also looking to bring in Linvoy Primus would of only pushed Malky even further down the pecking order behind Flemming, Primus, Charlton and Helveg too possibly.  It is clear that Worthy shown Malky that he was not in his plans in any shape or form for our season in the Premiership - barring an exceptional injury crisis.

[canary cherub 1]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

It''s strange how we remember things. My greatest criticism of Worthy was that he never seemed to have a plan B in the transfer market. He would identify the player he wanted and expect the board to get his man. But it was always a theme that if for some reason we didn''t get him we seemed to go without. This certainly happened with Primus. Everything pointed to him coming here. He was not only a commanding defender but was a leader with a good character. He was just the player to replace Malky but Mandaric broke his oiwn rules by offering Primus more money to stay. And that was that! Malky organised himself a move to West Ham because he couldn''t be guaranteed first team football. Charlton played centre half and played well early season. The stats will show Charlton and Fleming as the best pair that season and we had some good defensive performances and it was lack of a goal scorer why we waited for so long for that first win.

[/quote]

Aren''t we forgetting the role of our former Chief Exec in all this?  Was it unreasonable for Worthy to identify a player and expect the people with the money to do the deal if at all possible?  That''s how it''s supposed to work, and that''s how it seems to work now despite our parlous financial state.  The contrast between Doncaster and McNally could hardly be greater.

It certainly is strange how we remember things . . .

 

[chicken 0]

[quote user="Smudger"](1)  Please explain how playing for Wigan and Watford in the Premiership is any better than plaing for Norwich City in the Prem?[/quote]Wigan had more money and then when Francis went to Watford it was after a season of not playing much football for Wigan. That and McKenzie would probably have battered him even more if he didn''t leave  You must really try and stop blaming Mr Roeder for our relegation and focus on the real culprits - do not forget that we would have almost certainly been relegated 12 months earlier if it wasn''t for Mr Roeder.[/quote]I don''t quite get this. Roeder ripped the heart out of our team. He got shot of Huckerby, not only a fans favourite but also a players favourite. Huckerby alone was good enough to get us enough points to keep us up. Having kept us up when he first took over he then dessimated the team and got in players that were worse which lead us to relegation. What''s more most of those players weren''t even ours - it was like a season of Fulham''s all over again. No passion, no commitment, no desire and messing our better players about by playing them out of position like Russell up front.[quote user="Smudger"](3)  Nobody with an ounce of sense in the stands could understand why we released Malky when we did at the time either.  In hindsight we should of kept Iwan also (a goal or two in 10/15 min spells off the bench could of been the difference between relegation and survival).[/quote]Here''s the problem. Malky and Iwan were never going to be first team regulars. In the premiership pace is frightfully important, Iwan managed in the old division 1 but against top class if not world class defenders he was always going to struggle. Malky will always be a bit of a legend but unfortunately again he was never going to be a starter unless injury came to others. Again he had a severe lack of pace and also his distribution was lacking even in the 1st Division. He was a great leader and also a great positional and tactical player but again he would have been horribly exposed in the premiership as he was at times for Watford. In some ways I agree that it would have been good to have them both around the team in the prem but I think you will find they were spoken to by Worthington who treated them with the honesty they deserved, in Malky''s case he chose to move elsewhere but was hardly ever a regular again. Iwan went his way as well and again never really hit the heights that he had done. As Nutty has said, its more a case of not getting in adequate replacements, although having said that Charlton was not a bad player.[quote user="Smudger"](4)  Again as Hucks as hinted towards before - the real culprits for our failures in recent years were far too tight with the cash upon promotion until it was too late.  I guess we will have to wait until the coming season to see if they have learnt anything or not?[/quote]Agreed. Premieship campaign was not really a problem defensively - we simply didn''t score enough goals. Had we bought Ashton in the summer prior to the start of the season then maybe he would have been the difference in a few of those draws we got. The saddest thing of all is that if we had signed him and he scored one goal in one of those games we would have remained up. It came down to the last day of the season and the mercinaries were there to be seen by everyone.Thats the problem with top flight football, few players play for anything other than the money. Look at Liverpool - the rumours suggest Gerrard, Torres, Carragher and as many as half a dozen other players will leave if they fail to qualify for the champions league. I wouldnt be surprised if something of a similar nature happens at Man City.

[chicken 0]

[quote user="canary cherub "][quote user="nutty nigel"]

It''s strange how we remember things. My greatest criticism of Worthy was that he never seemed to have a plan B in the transfer market. He would identify the player he wanted and expect the board to get his man. But it was always a theme that if for some reason we didn''t get him we seemed to go without. This certainly happened with Primus. Everything pointed to him coming here. He was not only a commanding defender but was a leader with a good character. He was just the player to replace Malky but Mandaric broke his oiwn rules by offering Primus more money to stay. And that was that! Malky organised himself a move to West Ham because he couldn''t be guaranteed first team football. Charlton played centre half and played well early season. The stats will show Charlton and Fleming as the best pair that season and we had some good defensive performances and it was lack of a goal scorer why we waited for so long for that first win.

[/quote]

Aren''t we forgetting the role of our former Chief Exec in all this?  Was it unreasonable for Worthy to identify a player and expect the people with the money to do the deal if at all possible?  That''s how it''s supposed to work, and that''s how it seems to work now despite our parlous financial state.  The contrast between Doncaster and McNally could hardly be greater.

It certainly is strange how we remember things . . .

 

[/quote]I really have to agree with this. Nutty says that Worthington never appeared to have a plan B in the transfer market but having said that he also was never really given a lot of money to spend. The only exception being Earnshaw and that was arguably to soften the blow of loosing Ashton, and then Huckerby.If you look at Worthington''s last couple of seasons he was given pressious little to spend and we had to go for one or two risky players such as Dublin. Croft was his last signing in terms of cost and we paid over the odds for him unfortunately.

[nutty nigel 7,506]

Smudger - I don''t see where "my tale" of what happened fell apart. At least it happened which is more than your rewrite of history did. You are correct, Malky wasn''t guaranteed first team football because with the new signings he had fallen down the pecking order. This is what the majority of fans wanted anyway and a quick look back on this very message board will prove that point.Malky, to his eternal credit, wanted to play first team football so he went back to the Champs to do so.

Cherub - Surely you and I are saying the same thing. Maybe I should have phrased it better so try "my biggest criticism of  Worthy''s managerial reign". I wasn''t trying to pin the blame on Worthy. I wasn''t actually blaming anyone, I''ll leave that to others. But to be fair I don''t remember many blaming anyone else but Worthy at the time or later. I don''t remember Richard Balls writing columns to stoke up the fans to get Doncaster out. I don''t remember marches, petitions, stickers, posters or even St Andrews Hall meetings to get Doncaster out.

That''s the problem with this great need for blame - once the scapegoat has been identified all rational investigation of what actually happened stops.

 

[morty 0]

I bet that was a really good night.Lol at this thread turning into another heated debate.[:)]

[nutty nigel 7,506]

Yeah, heaven forbid we have a thread on here debating football and Norwich City...

Rescue us Morty [:''(]

[;)]

 

[morty 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Yeah, heaven forbid we have a thread on here debating football and Norwich City...

Rescue us Morty [:''(]

[;)]

 

[/quote]Lets all just be nice, and have a group hug.[:)]

[Ulf Ottosson 0]

1) Sorry I just don''t believe that for a second - our players deliberated lost to get us relegated what a joke - That match a lot of things went wrong - the Steve Foley Incident, tactics we needed to win so went for it we missed chance after chance in the first half, we had''nt won away all year, Fulham had an excellent home record and were a good team.

2) I think we all now Roeder handled the huckerby situation badly so this is hardly a revelation

3) NOthing wrong with the decision to sell Malky/ Iwan it''s just we replaced both of them with Gary Doherty.

4) I agree but this is hardly rocket science

[ca 1]

[quote user="Smudger"][quote user="Woman in the Stands WITS"]Thanks for these insights - you lucky guy! Wish I could have been there to see the man himself in his suit [:)]

That''s awful about the way the news was released. I know we fans were gutted to hear the way Hucks had left the club but for his children to hear it like that is truly dreadful. That epitomises Roeder and his total lack of sensitivity or diplomacy.

Nobody in the stands understood why Malky was sold either
[/quote]

The only suit that you and City Angel would of been hoping to see Hucks in would of been his Birthday Suit! [:P]
[/quote]

 

You''ve got us sussed [:)]