Carrow Road closures after matches

[Lambert is King 0]

[quote user="Webbo118"]Is anyone else finding it impossible to get into this thread? It seems to terminate after Mello Yello''s post last night.[/quote]

 

Im not having problems with it just looked for you however in the last few minutes everything seems to have slowed down and it feels like the site is about to crash again

[Webbo118 0]

Below is a copy of an e-mail I have today sent to Mr. East, local Councillor.

 

Good afternoon Mr. East

 

I was particularly interested to see that the problems with traffic procedures (non-procedures) around

Carrow Road had again appeared in the Evening News.

 

I am a shareholder, season-ticket holder (2 seats) and life-long supporter (46 years). I sit in the Upper Barclay

and, when leaving the ground, head along Clarence Road towards Thorpe Road.

 

I first raised this issue with the Club on 15th November 2009 and since then have spoken to the following-

1) Club Officials (Andy Batley, Sophie Britch and Jamie Arnall)

2) Norfolk Police

3) Norfolk County Council

4) Norwich City Council

5) Charles Clarke M.P. (said he couldn''t act for me as he is not my M.P. but would have an unofficial word with the Board)

6) Norman Lamb M.P. (passed it to Gerry Sutcliffe (Minister of Sport) for guidance in early December - no further news despite chasing)

7) Chris Lakey (EDP) - "nothing to do with the Sports Desk"

8) Health and Safety Executive - nothing to do with them!

9) Local Government Ombudsman - have to make an official complaint, in writing, and follow a three steps procedure.

 

To say I am absolutely disgusted at the current state of affairs is a massive understatement. I am appalled that the Club is

prepared to treat its most valuable asset (we are constantly told) in such a cavalier manner and this is nothing short of mind-blowing.

What is equally amazing is that, in an age where every facet of our lives seems to be governed by over-zealous and often

unneccessary Health and Safety regulations, a real and regular danger exists and officials seem unwilling to do anything

about it and appear to be, quite frankly, totally unbothered. I personally have witnessed over the past few weeks a number of

near misses involving cars, buses and 47 tonnes HGVs.

 

If you wish to discuss this further or I am able to provide any assistance, please let me know.

 

 

[Pete Raven 276]

Thread fixed and merged.

[Webbo118 0]

Many thanks SDP

[Matt Juler 151]

The people who annoy me most are those parked on the road towards Riverside opposite the swimming pool (blue badge holders who are entitled to park on the double yellow lines).  Why they feel the need to drive towards the oncoming crowd is beyond me.  If you want to get away quicky leave early, not drive through crowds of people.  It would only take sitting in your car for 5 minutes listening to Sports Hour to let things calm down.

[Webbo118 0]

I am reliably informed that, the decision by the Club to abdicate its pre and post match responsibilities in respect of supporter safety, produces savings sufficient to cover the cost of the wages of one first team player for a week. Must be well worth it then ! 

[First Wazzock 902]

It seems strange to me that the game can get called off due to the fact the paths may be icy which may cause injury to spectators, yet having a far greater danger to life and limb is perfectly acceptable.

[Yellow Rose of Texas 0]

What I don''t get is why it is the club''s responsibility to make sure that 25,000 citizens of Norfolk are unable to walk from the ground without the danger of motor traffic.

It''s not like the issue is random and unknown. It happens once every two weeks on a Saturday afternoon and somewhat less frequently on a Tuesday evening.

Time for the Norfolk Police to pull their finger out and get on with the job they have already been paid through taxes to do

[Webbo118 0]

The Evening News piece below sums it up nicely.

Worried Norwich City fans have made fresh calls for traffic to be stopped from heading down the main road outside Carrow Road following matches amid concerns icy weather could create serious problems for supporters leaving today''s match with Exeter.

DAN GRIMMER
09 January 2010 13:00



Worried fans have made fresh calls for traffic to be stopped from heading down the main road outside Carrow Road following matches amid concerns icy weather could create serious problems for supporters leaving today''s match with Exeter.

With predictions of more snow and ice today, supporters are worried the mix of traffic and pedestrians sliding about outside the stadium could prove lethal.

Police used to hold up traffic at the junction with Koblenz Avenue after games to allow supporters to disperse, but this season that has not happened, apparently because the club and Norfolk County Council are at loggerheads over who should foot the bill.

Tim East, season ticket holder and county councillor for Costessey, said he felt the club should pay for the road to be closed. The match is one of only two League One fixtures going ahead today and Mr East said the safety of supporters should be paramount.

He said: "The club are the event organisers and they have a responsib-ility to manage what goes on outside the ground as well as inside. It could be snowing, icy and dark by the time the game finishes today and with 25,000 fans spilling out all at one time it raises serious safety issues. I think it''s reprehensible that, with the club having paid for it to be closed in the 50 years I''ve been a supporter, they have stopped doing it this season."

A spokesman for the club said: "We do take safety of our supporters very seriously indeed. We do implement traffic management on our property, but on a public highway, such as Koblenz Avenue, the responsibility is with the highways authority, so that is Norfolk County Council."

A spokeswoman for Norfolk police said the club was responsible for match security and the highways authority was responsible for the roads outside the ground. She added: "Bearing in mind the current weather conditions we would urge anyone planning to drive to the event to ensure they allow extra time for their journey and to accept it may take longer than usual."

Laurie Egan, network manager in the county council''s highways department, said: "Health and Safety Executive guidance is that event organisers have a responsibility to put in traffic management plans to make sure disruption to the public highway is minimised and safety is maintained as people arrive for, during and after their event. These plans should be agreed with the police and highway authority.

"We, along with Norfolk Police, encourage all event organisers to make such arrangements and for large-scale events such as Sparks in the Park and the Norfolk Show, organisers pay for traffic marshals to help alleviate the anticipated impact of their event on the surrounding roads.

"While, as the local highway authority, we have a statutory duty to manage the local road network, this does not extend to paying for traffic management for privately-run events. We have given the football club guidance on management of traffic on match days and understand they are considering this at present."

[Webbo118 0]

I have now made contact with Mr. East and he has asked as many people as possible (assuming of course that you feel strongly about this important safety issue) to write to the EN and EDP.

I suggest that complaints are also sent to the Club. My current contact is Jamie Arnall and his address is JamieA@ncfc-canaries.co.uk.

 

[Webbo118 0]

Just a thought for what it''s worth, does anyone know whether Delia has an e-mail address and, if so, what it is?

[The gut 0]

Instead of letters and emails to all and sundry maybe some supporters should just ask their mums and dads to hold their hands all the way home.

[ca 1]

[quote user="The gut"]Instead of letters and emails to all and sundry maybe some supporters should just ask their mums and dads to hold their hands all the way home.[/quote]

 

Guess you find the thought of someone getting badly hurt funny, lets hope it doesn''t happen to any of your friends or family.

I personally think the whole situation is riduculous, are they going to wait until someone is hit by a car before they act, well done to everyone who is trying to get this sorted.

[The gut 0]

[quote user="cityangel"]

[quote user="The gut"]Instead of letters and emails to all and sundry maybe some supporters should just ask their mums and dads to hold their hands all the way home.[/quote]

 

Guess you find the thought of someone getting badly hurt funny, lets hope it doesn''t happen to any of your friends or family.

I personally think the whole situation is riduculous, are they going to wait until someone is hit by a car before they act, well done to everyone who is trying to get this sorted.

[/quote]

I reckon you guess wrong! I just happen to think that people should take responsibility themselves typically over the top reaction. Every single one of our fans are able or should be able to leave the ground safely with regard to traffic if they so choose! I will pass on your concerns to my friends and family.  

[sgncfc 1,227]

[quote user="Webbo118"]

I have raised this matter with local M.P.s Charles Clarke and Norman Lamb. It has been passed , for guidance, to Gerry Sutcliffe (Minister for Sport). I have also had discussions with officials from the Club, the Police, Norfolk County Council and Norwich City Council.

All parties are intent on passing the responsibility onto someone else. It is like a game of pass the parcel and no-one wants to be holding it when the music stops. Quite frankly, I am appalled with the attitude of all concerned, not least the officials of our beloved Club. Are they really going to wait until someone is badly injured or, worse still, killed. Perhaps they are content to merely follow that policy!

 

[/quote]I don''t live in Norwich so don''t understand the point being made about traffic marshalls at Christmas, but the law is quite clear - highways are the Council''s responsibility but legal liability will only arise if they are negligent, which would be pretty difficult to prove. If a driver hits a pedestrian there will be a liability issue based on the circumstances - just because it''s a football match doesn''t change that - people can''t just walk in the road without looking and drivers can''t just proceed unless it''s safe to do so, so "common sense" should prevail anyway.

When you put on an event to which the public have access, the organisers must inform the police with regard to safety and access and it is the police who decide what you must do and the promoter will then have to pay for it. If in this case the police haven''t become involved with ground access there is no need for anybody to do anything, just rely on the law and be careful.

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="The gut"]Instead of letters and emails to all and sundry maybe some supporters should just ask their mums and dads to hold their hands all the way home.[/quote]

This moronic response is not worthy of any comment other than "idiot"

[The gut 0]

[quote user="Webbo118"]

[quote user="The gut"]Instead of letters and emails to all and sundry maybe some supporters should just ask their mums and dads to hold their hands all the way home.[/quote]

This moronic response is not worthy of any comment other than "idiot"

[/quote]

I''m sorry that you see fit that everybody else has to take responsibility, bear the cost, and have their time wasted because of your moronic over reaction and idiotic inability to get out of a stadium safely. If we can name call because we disagree then you a right f***in poof. Wise up and take some self responsibility. 

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="sgncfc"][quote user="Webbo118"]

I have raised this matter with local M.P.s Charles Clarke and Norman Lamb. It has been passed , for guidance, to Gerry Sutcliffe (Minister for Sport). I have also had discussions with officials from the Club, the Police, Norfolk County Council and Norwich City Council.

All parties are intent on passing the responsibility onto someone else. It is like a game of pass the parcel and no-one wants to be holding it when the music stops. Quite frankly, I am appalled with the attitude of all concerned, not least the officials of our beloved Club. Are they really going to wait until someone is badly injured or, worse still, killed. Perhaps they are content to merely follow that policy!

 

[/quote]I don''t live in Norwich so don''t understand the point being made about traffic marshalls at Christmas, but the law is quite clear - highways are the Council''s responsibility but legal liability will only arise if they are negligent, which would be pretty difficult to prove. If a driver hits a pedestrian there will be a liability issue based on the circumstances - just because it''s a football match doesn''t change that - people can''t just walk in the road without looking and drivers can''t just proceed unless it''s safe to do so, so "common sense" should prevail anyway.

When you put on an event to which the public have access, the organisers must inform the police with regard to safety and access and it is the police who decide what you must do and the promoter will then have to pay for it. If in this case the police haven''t become involved with ground access there is no need for anybody to do anything, just rely on the law and be careful.

[/quote]

But it seldom does. I understand that the Club has a statutory obligation (as events organiser) to have a Traffic Management Plan in place. Apparently they do not and, as such, the safe and effective procedures that have been on display for the last 25/30 years have been binned for the sole purpose of saving a few pounds.  Not much point relying on the law if yoy are pushing up daisies !

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="sgncfc"][quote user="Webbo118"]

I have raised this matter with local M.P.s Charles Clarke and Norman Lamb. It has been passed , for guidance, to Gerry Sutcliffe (Minister for Sport). I have also had discussions with officials from the Club, the Police, Norfolk County Council and Norwich City Council.

All parties are intent on passing the responsibility onto someone else. It is like a game of pass the parcel and no-one wants to be holding it when the music stops. Quite frankly, I am appalled with the attitude of all concerned, not least the officials of our beloved Club. Are they really going to wait until someone is badly injured or, worse still, killed. Perhaps they are content to merely follow that policy!

 

[/quote]I don''t live in Norwich so don''t understand the point being made about traffic marshalls at Christmas, but the law is quite clear - highways are the Council''s responsibility but legal liability will only arise if they are negligent, which would be pretty difficult to prove. If a driver hits a pedestrian there will be a liability issue based on the circumstances - just because it''s a football match doesn''t change that - people can''t just walk in the road without looking and drivers can''t just proceed unless it''s safe to do so, so "common sense" should prevail anyway.

When you put on an event to which the public have access, the organisers must inform the police with regard to safety and access and it is the police who decide what you must do and the promoter will then have to pay for it. If in this case the police haven''t become involved with ground access there is no need for anybody to do anything, just rely on the law and be careful.

[/quote]

But it seldom does. I understand that the Club has a statutory obligation (as events organiser) to have a Traffic Management Plan in place. Apparently they do not and, as such, the safe and effective procedures that have been on display for the last 25/30 years have been binned for the sole purpose of saving a few pounds.  Not much point relying on the law if you are pushing up daisies !

[The gut 0]

Who are doing this for Webbo? Are you representing anyone?

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="The gut"][quote user="Webbo118"]

[quote user="The gut"]Instead of letters and emails to all and sundry maybe some supporters should just ask their mums and dads to hold their hands all the way home.[/quote]

This moronic response is not worthy of any comment other than "idiot"

[/quote]

I''m sorry that you see fit that everybody else has to take responsibility, bear the cost, and have their time wasted because of your moronic over reaction and idiotic inability to get out of a stadium safely. If we can name call because we disagree then you a right f***in poof. Wise up and take some self responsibility. 

[/quote]

I have every confidence in my ability to look after myself. Unlike you, I also have regard for the safety of other people and in particular supporters at both ends of the age spectrum, i.e. the elderly and young children. I have witnessed some near misses over the past few weeks and in a contest between a vulnerable person and a 47 tonnes HGV there is only ever going to be one "winner". When the inevitable happens, no doubt we will be bombarded with the usual platitudes such as "this must never happen again" and "we must all learn from this".

Effective procedures that have been in place for countless years have been thrown away, merely to save a few pounds. Quite frankly, it stinks and the officials responsible should be ashamed of themselves.

 

[Webbo118 0]

[quote user="The gut"]Who are doing this for Webbo? Are you representing anyone?[/quote]

Could you ask again please, preferably in understandable English this time. "Who are doing this for Webbo" - what are you asking?

[The gut 0]

[quote user="Webbo118"]

[quote user="The gut"]Who are doing this for Webbo? Are you representing anyone?[/quote]

Could you ask again please, preferably in understandable English this time. "Who are doing this for Webbo" - what are you asking?

 

[/quote]

As soon as I posted it I realised ..... you can put it down to poor typing and computer skills than english ability.....but in my own stupidity I thought any idiot could work it out ....Who are YOU doing this for Webbo? 

I''m starting to form a pretty clear picture in my head.

[The gut 0]

[quote user="Webbo118"]

I have every confidence in my ability to look after myself. Unlike you, I also have regard for the safety of other people and in particular supporters at both ends of the age spectrum, i.e. the elderly and young children. I have witnessed some near misses over the past few weeks and in a contest between a vulnerable person and a 47 tonnes HGV there is only ever going to be one "winner". When the inevitable happens, no doubt we will be bombarded with the usual platitudes such as "this must never happen again" and "we must all learn from this".

Effective procedures that have been in place for countless years have been thrown away, merely to save a few pounds. Quite frankly, it stinks and the officials responsible should be ashamed of themselves.

 

[/quote]

I have regard for peoples independance. The young children are their parents'' responsibility and I wouldn''t dare suggst that the elderly are unable to fight their own battles. Have you had a near miss? Did those who had one complain?

[Mello Yello 2,289]

I personally feel that the traffic situation after the game must be addressed. To not do so, is downright pathetic....and quite dangerous.

Bunch of bun-fighting chumps, with their heads rammed up their gargantuan bureaucratic butts....

25,000 people vacating a stadium cannot patiently all stand at the kerb waiting for a gap - so that they can cross the road safely....because the build up of impatient folk also wishing to exit behind them won''t allow this to happen.

Certainly wasn''t much of a problem when Police were strategically positioned around the main exits from Carra....

Get it sorted, for safety''s sake. 

 

[Howson is now! 0]

In all fairness, while "The Gut" has gone about it in a way that seems to have ruffled a few feathers, he''s got a point. How difficult is it to check if any traffic is coming before you step out into a road? If a car is coming, you don''t cross. I''ve been taught that since I was old enough to walk.

However, a counter argument to this is that the paths are very very packed and I have seen a few times when someone hasn''t stepped out into the road at all, they have been nudged due to overcrowding and as a result have nearly been hit.

When the fan traffic is properly packed the cars can''t go any faster than 5 miles/hour at best so the chances of serious injury are minimal.

I think the actual argument is who covers the cost? My opinion is that they are public highways and should in theory be the responsibility of the council. Who knows? I don''t understand the laws, I''d just quite like everyone to stop passing the buck and state where the laws lay the responsibility.

[city4eva 209]

[quote user="CallsignViper"]In all fairness, while "The Gut" has gone about it in a way that seems to have ruffled a few feathers, he''s got a point. How difficult is it to check if any traffic is coming before you step out into a road? If a car is coming, you don''t cross. I''ve been taught that since I was old enough to walk. However, a counter argument to this is that the paths are very very packed and I have seen a few times when someone hasn''t stepped out into the road at all, they have been nudged due to overcrowding and as a result have nearly been hit. When the fan traffic is properly packed the cars can''t go any faster than 5 miles/hour at best so the chances of serious injury are minimal. I think the actual argument is who covers the cost? My opinion is that they are public highways and should in theory be the responsibility of the council. Who knows? I don''t understand the laws, I''d just quite like everyone to stop passing the buck and state where the laws lay the responsibility.[/quote]

 

That is the crux of the problem. whatever Gut says.  The club should be paying for their loyal supporters to get safely away from the stadium

[The gut 0]

Where does it all end? It seems that most would be happy if we went back to how we were, but the same problem (possibly worse) extends down to county hall roundabout and beyond into trowse( very dangerous coming out of trowse), up to Queens Rd, up to Harvey Lane. Some say safety safety safety, I say responsibility. I would take a guess that those complaining on here probably choose at some time to walk on the roads after footie in the dark but don''t stick a high vis vest on. They won''t take small actions themselves, they want others to pay and do things for them. If all those who were concerned about their safety waited 15 mins, walked at a casual pace, decided to stick to the path no matter what I am quite certain that they would be able to do so without a problem. I went to Oxford St a few weeks ago and the pavements were as busy as leaving our ground, more traffic and faster. Typical namby pamby, exaggerated, whiney, wimpish joe public. Whoever pays for this, it will end up being passed on to us/me and to be honest there are numerous ways money could be better spent. Comparisons to how long road closures have taken place are not a true picture, the roads are different and for a large part of that time I would say it was just as much for the safety of drivers not being done over by hooligans. 

[The gut 0]

[quote user="city4eva"]

[quote user="CallsignViper"]In all fairness, while "The Gut" has gone about it in a way that seems to have ruffled a few feathers, he''s got a point. How difficult is it to check if any traffic is coming before you step out into a road? If a car is coming, you don''t cross. I''ve been taught that since I was old enough to walk. However, a counter argument to this is that the paths are very very packed and I have seen a few times when someone hasn''t stepped out into the road at all, they have been nudged due to overcrowding and as a result have nearly been hit. When the fan traffic is properly packed the cars can''t go any faster than 5 miles/hour at best so the chances of serious injury are minimal. I think the actual argument is who covers the cost? My opinion is that they are public highways and should in theory be the responsibility of the council. Who knows? I don''t understand the laws, I''d just quite like everyone to stop passing the buck and state where the laws lay the responsibility.[/quote]

 

That is the crux of the problem. whatever Gut says.  The club should be paying for their loyal supporters to get safely away from the stadium

[/quote]

Whatever the problem the gut says the club will not be paying for it''s loyal supporters to get away safely from the stadium.

[Jacko 0]

I can see both arguments but I also think anybody who drives near Carrow Road between 2.30-3.00 and from 4.45 onwards on a matchday should expect they will have to wait in long queues.