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Lappin not good enough

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[quote user="Indy_Bones"]I think some of the arguments being put forward here are somewhat spurious, the key one being that because we''ve gone on such a good run, then the players in there have suddenly become immune to criticism or that because of these results then automatically each player must have been great.

Let me offer you an extreme example here, imagine the following team:

Cech
Bosingwa
Ferdinand
Vidic
A.Cole
Lennon
Gerrard
Lampard
Lappin
Rooney
Drogba

And then imagine that they''d gone on the same winning run as we did, do you think it would be because of Lappin''s inclusion - or in spite of it?

I''m not trying to criticise the guy here, but some people have to realise that we can get good results and win games, even if a player isn''t performing too strongly.

Of course Lappin is likely to be high on the assist charts, because we''re the highest scoring team in the league, and he often takes corner and FK''s. I''m currently in the process of getting hold of the full stats for assists etc, but even if players like Russell, Smith and Hughes have only contributed with 2-3 each, then the difference over the course of 30+ games isn''t that much (approx 1 assist better per every 8 games)...

I have to be somewhat concerned with his goal contribution as 0 in 33 is an awful performance, especially compared to the other players around him - Smith has 1 in 9, Hughes has 1 in 11, even Russell has 1 in 26 in a DM role!

He''s also racked up more yellow cards than any other player in the midfield.

So put all these things together and you have a player who''s fairly slow, doesn''t get stuck into tackles too much, performs slighlty better with goal assists, but is much, much worse at actually scoring them, and gets booked more than the rest of the midfield which includes Rusty who''s notorious for picking up cards from full blooded tackles.

If we just looked at this coldly and based purely on stats, then we''d all admit that he''s arugably the weakest link in the midfield, so when this ''weak link'' has a run of poor to average games, then surely we need to consider whether or not a change would be beneficial?

Thoughts?
[/quote]

Top post Indy & got it in one!

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The manager won''t look at it "coldy and based purely on stats" though. Not from an individual point of view, anyway.

He''ll look at the team as a unit. I''m sure he''d like it if Simon Lappin had killer pace and if he could put a shot on target every few weeks but as long as we''re where we need to be in the league and getting the results then it''s very unlikely he''ll change anything.

We''ve had so much chopping and changing over the last few seasons I''m glad we''ve finally got a manager who picks his best team (a good team) and sticks with it. Players like it too, they like the consistency and they like knowing where they stand.

Back to Lappin in particular, it''s very rare that he doesn''t put in a bloody good shift in a game. His efforts and performances over the last few months mean he''s earnt his place and deserves to keep it.

You win and lose as a team.

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[quote user="Gazza"]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"]I think some of the arguments being put forward here are somewhat spurious, the key one being that because we''ve gone on such a good run, then the players in there have suddenly become immune to criticism or that because of these results then automatically each player must have been great.Let me offer you an extreme example here, imagine the following team:CechBosingwaFerdinandVidicA.ColeLennonGerrardLampardLappinRooneyDrogbaAnd then imagine that they''d gone on the same winning run as we did, do you think it would be because of Lappin''s inclusion - or in spite of it?I''m not trying to criticise the guy here, but some people have to realise that we can get good results and win games, even if a player isn''t performing too strongly.Of course Lappin is likely to be high on the assist charts, because we''re the highest scoring team in the league, and he often takes corner and FK''s. I''m currently in the process of getting hold of the full stats for assists etc, but even if players like Russell, Smith and Hughes have only contributed with 2-3 each, then the difference over the course of 30+ games isn''t that much (approx 1 assist better per every 8 games)...I have to be somewhat concerned with his goal contribution as 0 in 33 is an awful performance, especially compared to the other players around him - Smith has 1 in 9, Hughes has 1 in 11, even Russell has 1 in 26 in a DM role!He''s also racked up more yellow cards than any other player in the midfield. So put all these things together and you have a player who''s fairly slow, doesn''t get stuck into tackles too much, performs slighlty better with goal assists, but is much, much worse at actually scoring them, and gets booked more than the rest of the midfield which includes Rusty who''s notorious for picking up cards from full blooded tackles.If we just looked at this coldly and based purely on stats, then we''d all admit that he''s arugably the weakest link in the midfield, so when this ''weak link'' has a run of poor to average games, then surely we need to consider whether or not a change would be beneficial?Thoughts?[/quote]

Top post Indy & got it in one!

[/quote]Very good post Indy... as you rightly saywe are the top scorers in the country and Lappin has taken 90% of our free kicks and corners... [Y]How many of those free kicks and corners have been utterly wasted?  Wouldn''t it be interesting to see the stats for how many free kicks, corners and crosses it has taken him to chalk up these infamous 7 assists???

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[quote user="GJP"]

[quote user="jed exodous"] The whole idea of a big squad is to keep people on their toes and on top of their game, and based on our last 3 or 4 performances some players seem to have let their game slip in the absence of 1 player.[/quote]

I think it''d be fair to give the same players a chance when that one player, Grant Holt, is back in the team.

Not having him upfront has made things so much harder for us. We''ve found it difficult to make the ball stick when we''ve put it forward which therefore means more pressure on the defence.

At the moment I can only see the manager bringing Holt back in for Cody unless there are injury/fitness problems.

It''s always important to give yourself time to think and avoid rushing into a decision. We lost one tough away game after going weeks and weeks without a defeat in the league. I think the manager would be treating some players pretty harshly if he was to drop them after that.

I don''t understand where people are coming from when it comes to the centre of defence. There seems this desperation to get Whitbread into the team and all that means is that we''ve got to break up a defence that''s been doing really well and wait for a new partnership to gel together. Seems a bit silly, a bit naive.

[/quote]What is all this bollox about us missing Grant Holt?We should be able to get results at place like Millwall without him and I believe that we would of done with somebody replacing Lappin and Whitbread in for Nelson.

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[quote user="Smudger"]How many of those free kicks and corners have been utterly wasted?  Wouldn''t it be interesting to see the stats for how many free kicks, corners and crosses it has taken him to chalk up these infamous 7 assists???
[/quote]You mean you have been going to all these games and you haven''t been keeping count? [:^)]

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[quote user="Smudger"][quote user="Gazza"]

[quote user="Indy_Bones"]I think some of the arguments being put forward here are somewhat spurious, the key one being that because we''ve gone on such a good run, then the players in there have suddenly become immune to criticism or that because of these results then automatically each player must have been great.

Let me offer you an extreme example here, imagine the following team:

Cech
Bosingwa
Ferdinand
Vidic
A.Cole
Lennon
Gerrard
Lampard
Lappin
Rooney
Drogba

And then imagine that they''d gone on the same winning run as we did, do you think it would be because of Lappin''s inclusion - or in spite of it?

I''m not trying to criticise the guy here, but some people have to realise that we can get good results and win games, even if a player isn''t performing too strongly.

Of course Lappin is likely to be high on the assist charts, because we''re the highest scoring team in the league, and he often takes corner and FK''s. I''m currently in the process of getting hold of the full stats for assists etc, but even if players like Russell, Smith and Hughes have only contributed with 2-3 each, then the difference over the course of 30+ games isn''t that much (approx 1 assist better per every 8 games)...

I have to be somewhat concerned with his goal contribution as 0 in 33 is an awful performance, especially compared to the other players around him - Smith has 1 in 9, Hughes has 1 in 11, even Russell has 1 in 26 in a DM role!

He''s also racked up more yellow cards than any other player in the midfield.

So put all these things together and you have a player who''s fairly slow, doesn''t get stuck into tackles too much, performs slighlty better with goal assists, but is much, much worse at actually scoring them, and gets booked more than the rest of the midfield which includes Rusty who''s notorious for picking up cards from full blooded tackles.

If we just looked at this coldly and based purely on stats, then we''d all admit that he''s arugably the weakest link in the midfield, so when this ''weak link'' has a run of poor to average games, then surely we need to consider whether or not a change would be beneficial?

Thoughts?
[/quote]

Top post Indy & got it in one!

[/quote]

Very good post Indy... as you rightly saywe are the top scorers in the country and Lappin has taken 90% of our free kicks and corners... [Y]

How many of those free kicks and corners have been utterly wasted?  Wouldn''t it be interesting to see the stats for how many free kicks, corners and crosses it has taken him to chalk up these infamous 7 assists???
[/quote]

No, but what really would discredit him and finally prove you right beyond all reasonable doubt is if you could trawl through all the weather records and demonstrate that all of assists were actually attributable to which way the wind was blowing or if the sun was particularly bright and shining in either his or the opponents eyes.  

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[quote user="Lambo"]

I''d like to see Whitbred & Holt in for Brighton. MacNamee doesn''t really fit out current formation however he does deserve a start soon IMO.

Smudge, you asked why I''d be interested in seeing Hughes in Lappin''s place? I never once said Lappin''s a fantastic player who''ll guide us to the Champions League, all I said was that he''d a good player who had a bad day at the office yesterday. Yes i''d be interested to see Hughes in the team, he''s a fantastic player IMO, probably better than Lappin in all honesty. However I think Lappin suits our formation better as does Lambert currently.

[/quote]I agree with this to some extent, but I also believe that we could get away with playing McNamee in place of Lappin in many matches in this very poor league... especially if we tighten up further at the back by bringing the impressive looking Whitbread in for Nelson.  I still wish that Lambert had of got his hands on Seaborne also as I was very impressed with him when Exeter came to Carrow Road.  Lambert should be making room in the team for McNamee as he did do for Hoolahan earlier this season.  You do that for quality players who are an improvement on what you have already got.

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[quote user="GJP"]

The manager won''t look at it "coldy and based purely on stats" though. Not from an individual point of view, anyway.

He''ll look at the team as a unit. I''m sure he''d like it if Simon Lappin had killer pace and if he could put a shot on target every few weeks but as long as we''re where we need to be in the league and getting the results then it''s very unlikely he''ll change anything.

We''ve had so much chopping and changing over the last few seasons I''m glad we''ve finally got a manager who picks his best team (a good team) and sticks with it. Players like it too, they like the consistency and they like knowing where they stand.

Back to Lappin in particular, it''s very rare that he doesn''t put in a bloody good shift in a game. His efforts and performances over the last few months mean he''s earnt his place and deserves to keep it.

You win and lose as a team.

[/quote]Leaving better quality players (his own signings on the bench) does Lambert even know what his best team is yet?I am not sure that he does and if he does he sure as hell hasn''t shown too many signs of it to the fans as yet.

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[quote user="lappinitup"][quote user="Smudger"]How many of those free kicks and corners have been utterly wasted?  Wouldn''t it be interesting to see the stats for how many free kicks, corners and crosses it has taken him to chalk up these infamous 7 assists???[/quote]You mean you have been going to all these games and you haven''t been keeping count? [:^)][/quote]Yes Lapp... I even lost count of number of corners/passbacks to the goalkeeper Lappin made at Millwall on Saturday.  How on earth am I supposed to keep count over the course of the season?  I would need to take an abacus with plenty of beads on it! [:P]

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My opinion on Lappin is simply that he plays well against the weaker opposition teams, but poor against any half-decent sides. Same in the championship. There are obvious exceptions to the rule (such as Birmingham away last season, had a very good game) but typically speaking i certainly think he''s the weakest midfielder we have, he hasn''t shown fantastic passing ability and he''s certainly not a big strong hard tackling player either. He has shown a very good left foot with set-pieces however he has wasted lots this season, especially millwall saturday.I think we would struggle if we kept the same formation and replaced with MacNamee, however i think Hughes could do a job!

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[quote user="Smudger"][quote user="GJP"]

[quote user="jed exodous"] The whole idea of a big squad is to keep people on their toes and on top of their game, and based on our last 3 or 4 performances some players seem to have let their game slip in the absence of 1 player.[/quote]

I think it''d be fair to give the same players a chance when that one player, Grant Holt, is back in the team.

Not having him upfront has made things so much harder for us. We''ve found it difficult to make the ball stick when we''ve put it forward which therefore means more pressure on the defence.

At the moment I can only see the manager bringing Holt back in for Cody unless there are injury/fitness problems.

It''s always important to give yourself time to think and avoid rushing into a decision. We lost one tough away game after going weeks and weeks without a defeat in the league. I think the manager would be treating some players pretty harshly if he was to drop them after that.

I don''t understand where people are coming from when it comes to the centre of defence. There seems this desperation to get Whitbread into the team and all that means is that we''ve got to break up a defence that''s been doing really well and wait for a new partnership to gel together. Seems a bit silly, a bit naive.

[/quote]

What is all this bollox about us missing Grant Holt?

We should be able to get results at place like Millwall without him and I believe that we would of done with somebody replacing Lappin and Whitbread in for Nelson.
[/quote]

It is, once again, just really basic stuff. When you''ve got a physical presence like Grant Holt upfront you can play the ball up the pitch and make it stick because he has not the stature/strength and determination to keep hold of the ball. That relieves pressure on your defence and midfield and allows various other players to move up the pitch in support.

Millwall are one of the better sides in this league. They''re on a good run of form. They''re hard to beat at home. And we went there without our captain and top goal scorer. No surprise that the manager isn''t going to be too disappointed with the defeat because he, like many of us, knew that was going to be a tough game. And he, like many of us, knows we''ll soon be returning to winning ways.

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[quote user="GJP"][quote user="Smudger"][quote user="GJP"]

[quote user="jed exodous"] The whole idea of a big squad is to keep people on their toes and on top of their game, and based on our last 3 or 4 performances some players seem to have let their game slip in the absence of 1 player.[/quote]

I think it''d be fair to give the same players a chance when that one player, Grant Holt, is back in the team.

Not having him upfront has made things so much harder for us. We''ve found it difficult to make the ball stick when we''ve put it forward which therefore means more pressure on the defence.

At the moment I can only see the manager bringing Holt back in for Cody unless there are injury/fitness problems.

It''s always important to give yourself time to think and avoid rushing into a decision. We lost one tough away game after going weeks and weeks without a defeat in the league. I think the manager would be treating some players pretty harshly if he was to drop them after that.

I don''t understand where people are coming from when it comes to the centre of defence. There seems this desperation to get Whitbread into the team and all that means is that we''ve got to break up a defence that''s been doing really well and wait for a new partnership to gel together. Seems a bit silly, a bit naive.

[/quote]What is all this bollox about us missing Grant Holt?We should be able to get results at place like Millwall without him and I believe that we would of done with somebody replacing Lappin and Whitbread in for Nelson.[/quote]

It is, once again, just really basic stuff. When you''ve got a physical presence like Grant Holt upfront you can play the ball up the pitch and make it stick because he has not the stature/strength and determination to keep hold of the ball. That relieves pressure on your defence and midfield and allows various other players to move up the pitch in support.

Millwall are one of the better sides in this league. They''re on a good run of form. They''re hard to beat at home. And we went there without our captain and top goal scorer. No surprise that the manager isn''t going to be too disappointed with the defeat because he, like many of us, knew that was going to be a tough game. And he, like many of us, knows we''ll soon be returning to winning ways.

[/quote]Eggzackly!!!

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Lappin is a team player, and at this level, he is an asset.He has no pace, but his delivery is usually very good, hence the high assist number.He is passionate, and sometime you need these players in the squad.

Some people still seem to need reminding we are IN LEAGUE ONE.

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I''ve already made my thoughts known on this subject, but just a small addendum.Why is Lappin being lauded for his workrate and team play despite his overall footballing ability being very average, when Andy Hughes was mocked and dismissed for the exact same thing?I''d say that Hughes put in a higher work rate than Lappin every game, was clearly a team player, and even got back and helped defend when possible. It was the fact that he was lacking in other areas that most fans wanted rid of him, so why are dual standards being applied here?

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[quote user="Indy_Bones"]I''ve already made my thoughts known on this subject, but just a small addendum.

Why is Lappin being lauded for his workrate and team play despite his overall footballing ability being very average, when Andy Hughes was mocked and dismissed for the exact same thing?

I''d say that Hughes put in a higher work rate than Lappin every game, was clearly a team player, and even got back and helped defend when possible. It was the fact that he was lacking in other areas that most fans wanted rid of him, so why are dual standards being applied here?
[/quote]

Both are hard working players. Difference is that Simon Lappin is much better with the ball. Andy Hughes was always very erratic with his passing.

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