is the premiership the promised land..?

[morty 0]

[quote user="a1canary"]What you forget though M is that we''re all in the same boat. I can''t think of many clubs at that level who don''t also have big debts to service.[/quote]Yeah, fair point.A very scarey thought is that, after their financial jiggery pokery, Leeds are completely debt free and turning a profit.Old Ken isn''t as stupid as he looks!

[a1canary 0]

You know how he did that? One word. Administration. I think i suggested on here a while back that the 10 point penalty will have to be raised to 20 soon otherwise it will become preferable to lose 10 points AND your debts, than to carry on going nowhere while keeping and servicing the debts.

You can bet that Crystal Palace will come up smelling of roses too in a year or two while we''re on year 4 of our 35 year repayment plan!!!

[Houston Canary 0]

[quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]

[quote user="YankeeCanary"][quote user="RUDOLPH HUCKER"]Perhaps the answer to all these dull and uninspiring Europe wide games would be to revert to a competition held solely in our own country and call it a world series?[/quote] No need to "revert" to anything Rudolph. You already have something comparable to the world series. Every week I smile as I watch the English commentators puff out their respective chests with exclamations such as, "This, after all, is the English Premiership" or "You know you have to be at your best in the English Premiership." These utterances occur with great regularity despite the fact that English players are few and far between. You see Rudolph, they might as well call it the World Premiership. The "English" reference to Premiership is akin to what the baseball "Series" in the United States is to "World." Misleading.[/quote]

FFS. At least they don''t claim that it''s the World Premiership!

And my recollection is that far more references are made to ''The Barclays Premier League'' than to ''The English Premiership'' in pursuit of raising the profile of its sponsors a successful English multinational.............

OTBC  

 

[/quote]

Until only about 60 years ago, the US was the only country that played pro baseball, so it WAS the World Series. Foreigners got involved post WWII as we helped rebuild places and took the game to them. Should Major league Baseball change the name of its championship because of this?

AND all the best foreign talent plays in the US anyways, so it IS the World Series. Why that makes so many people insecure is beyond me. I''ve explained it mulitple times on this forum, nobody every disagrees with what I write, but the same stupid point keeps getting brought up: Whhhaaaa, don''t call it World if it''s only the US!

BTW, Toronto has a team too, ya know. In the AMERICAN League!

[Syteanric 1]

if the promised land is a league that weakens its international sides chances by not sending youngtsers to foreign clubs to gain valuable european experiance, thats dominated by 3 teams who the authorities will bend opver backwards to treat differently to everyone, and whats branded as the "best league in the world" despite the fact no one from outside the top 4 has won it since 1995... then yes.. its the pinnacle..

the premier league and champions league are both mickey mouse competitions... but of course i''d want us as a premiership club to see the quality it brings.

 

[Yellowfuture 71]

[quote user="morty"]Interesting point, perhaps the time really is coming where you have to be realistic about where your football team fits on the big ladder.

When we were flying high in the Prem the football world really was a much different place, very little Sky money and the vast majority of players were from the UK and not on a great deal of money.

And just as the great money revolution began we dropped out (We all know the reasons, lets not discuss further)

I think that over the next few years clubs are truly going to find their level, and the inevitable drop in wages will attract less foreign superstars and the emphasis will again switch round to home grown talent.

Maybe we need to be happy with being a top half Championship side thats well run and not drowning in debt, and maybe, with a bit of good fortune as the "bigger" sides start to decline we may be well placed to sneak up on them.
[/quote]

 

We should never be happy  with being a Championship side, what is the point of playing competative football unless you want to be at the top, ireespective of whether it is a realistic target, thats what we should always be aiming for. The whole problem with the City Board is that they did not (queery) do not really believe we could be a  Premier  League side.  one of the worst days of  my life  was coming away  from the Millenium afer losing to the Blue Noses, yes they  went down again but are sitting 8th on the Prem at the moment, they are no where near the club that we are. We nearly stayed  up  and should have done.We  were let down by a Board and Management Team that didnt think we should really be there but should be  satisfied to be "just visiting".The reason we are in the 3rd Division is because of a lack of vision, with the right blend of  Board and Managemnet theis club can easily be a Prem side and certainly should be! 

[BlyBlyBabes 0]

[quote user="thefutureisyellow"]

[quote user="morty"]Interesting point, perhaps the time really is coming where you have to be realistic about where your football team fits on the big ladder.

When we were flying high in the Prem the football world really was a much different place, very little Sky money and the vast majority of players were from the UK and not on a great deal of money.

And just as the great money revolution began we dropped out (We all know the reasons, lets not discuss further)

I think that over the next few years clubs are truly going to find their level, and the inevitable drop in wages will attract less foreign superstars and the emphasis will again switch round to home grown talent.

Maybe we need to be happy with being a top half Championship side thats well run and not drowning in debt, and maybe, with a bit of good fortune as the "bigger" sides start to decline we may be well placed to sneak up on them.
[/quote]

 

We should never be happy  with being a Championship side, what is the point of playing competative football unless you want to be at the top, ireespective of whether it is a realistic target, thats what we should always be aiming for. The whole problem with the City Board is that they did not (queery) do not really believe we could be a  Premier  League side.  one of the worst days of  my life  was coming away  from the Millenium afer losing to the Blue Noses, yes they  went down again but are sitting 8th on the Prem at the moment, they are no where near the club that we are. We nearly stayed  up  and should have done.We  were let down by a Board and Management Team that didnt think we should really be there but should be  satisfied to be "just visiting".The reason we are in the 3rd Division is because of a lack of vision, with the right blend of  Board and Managemnet theis club can easily be a Prem side and certainly should be! 

[/quote]

Now, I can agree with most of that.

Do you think that we now have that ''right blend of Board and Management''?

OTBC

[Yellowfuture 71]

I  think we have the right management team in place from a football perspective, obviously not tried at the highest  level but for me the key is being able to manage players and get the  best out of them whatever level they are playing at, Lambert and Co so  far seem to have that ability. My best guess would be that they could be successful managers in the Prem, my worry would be that they may not have sufficient clout to attract players, cos we sure wont be  able to pay top wages.

I have confidence in the C Exec who for me has been a great appointment, he is also saying all the right things about ambition but I  am not convinved that the Board has the same conviction.   

[morty 0]

[quote user="thefutureisyellow"]

[quote user="morty"]Interesting point, perhaps the time really is coming where you have to be realistic about where your football team fits on the big ladder.When we were flying high in the Prem the football world really was a much different place, very little Sky money and the vast majority of players were from the UK and not on a great deal of money.And just as the great money revolution began we dropped out (We all know the reasons, lets not discuss further)I think that over the next few years clubs are truly going to find their level, and the inevitable drop in wages will attract less foreign superstars and the emphasis will again switch round to home grown talent.Maybe we need to be happy with being a top half Championship side thats well run and not drowning in debt, and maybe, with a bit of good fortune as the "bigger" sides start to decline we may be well placed to sneak up on them.[/quote]

 

We should never be happy  with being a Championship side, what is the point of playing competative football unless you want to be at the top, ireespective of whether it is a realistic target, thats what we should always be aiming for. The whole problem with the City Board is that they did not (queery) do not really believe we could be a  Premier  League side.  one of the worst days of  my life  was coming away  from the Millenium afer losing to the Blue Noses, yes they  went down again but are sitting 8th on the Prem at the moment, they are no where near the club that we are. We nearly stayed  up  and should have done.We  were let down by a Board and Management Team that didnt think we should really be there but should be  satisfied to be "just visiting".The reason we are in the 3rd Division is because of a lack of vision, with the right blend of  Board and Managemnet theis club can easily be a Prem side and certainly should be! 

[/quote]I agree to most respects but will say one thing :-£

[Yellowfuture 71]

Money is always going to be the big issue for every club Morty, but that should not be used as an excuse for lack of ambition.We have blown a hell of a lot of money in recent times due to repeated mistakes by Board and Management, a reasonable amount of new money spent wisely by a good manager, introducing quality into a winning and well motivated  team should at least give us a chance 

[morty 0]

[quote user="thefutureisyellow"]Money is always going to be the big issue for every club Morty, but that should not be used as an excuse for lack of ambition.We have blown a hell of a lot of money in recent times due to repeated mistakes by Board and Management, a reasonable amount of new money spent wisely by a good manager, introducing quality into a winning and well motivated  team should at least give us a chance [/quote]But what we have done, in blowing so much stupid money over the last few years is put ourselves in a position where we really can''t over extend ourselves until we chip a bit off the debt.We''re only surviving and being competitive now because we have negotiated with our creditors and put payments off till next season.We will have to tighten the pursestrings for a few years unless we can get new investment in, which I personally doubt. I honestly don''t think there will be next money available to strengthen the squad next season and we will do well to finish mid table with the squad we have and maybe a few others. We have to be realistic in our expectations, and if they are exceeded, then all the better. If we can consolidate for a season in the Champ and chip 5 mil off the debt then that will give us the spends to push on the following season. But the only way we will do that is either a massive hike in prices, a good cup run, or sell a player.

[Yellowfuture 71]

That doesnt look like much of a  business model to me Morty, all that will  result is the loss of players, loss of manager and languishing in the lower  leagues. We have to attract some investment, promotion wont harm that prospect, the Board and Chief  Exec have  to actively manage the club and assess risk and potential reward. There will be oppertunities for a club like ours to take risk at the right time and invest in the club, in the same  way as you would run any business, the critical factor is having a Board and Chief  Exec who thoroughly understand their business and the market they are in.     

[morty 0]

[quote user="thefutureisyellow"]That doesnt look like much of a  business model to me Morty, all that will  result is the loss of players, loss of manager and languishing in the lower  leagues. We have to attract some investment, promotion wont harm that prospect, the Board and Chief  Exec have  to actively manage the club and assess risk and potential reward. There will be oppertunities for a club like ours to take risk at the right time and invest in the club, in the same  way as you would run any business, the critical factor is having a Board and Chief  Exec who thoroughly understand their business and the market they are in.     [/quote]Which is exactly what I said, I believe they will back us when they are able to, but without investment (which we have unsuccessfully been looking for, for quite some time now) they are not stupid enough to put the club at risk, I don''t think people realise just how precarious our position is right now, I dread to think what would happen if we don''t go up this season.I feel we will move forward, maybe just not as quickly as some people may like us to.

[Yellowfuture 71]

I thought you were proposing a risk averse strategey of "consolidation" in the Championship. Must have mis-understood!

[morty 0]

[quote user="thefutureisyellow"]I thought you were proposing a risk averse strategey of "consolidation" in the Championship. Must have mis-understood![/quote]No, you didn''t misunderstand.Its the way I see it panning out, with no further investment I don''t think we will have the resources to win the Championship next season anyway. If we somehow make it to the Prem then all well and good, they will manage it money wise.But like I said we have a lot of debt to cope with and it doesn''t leave us enough money to mount a serious charge to the top of the table.Unless, of course, the squad we have now is virtually able to do that without many additions to it, and with all the speculation in the world, we won''t know that until we get there.If someone came into the club right now and gave us 10 million I''d say we have the board to spend it right and the manager to take us up, but no one is going to give us that kind of moolah, so the mantra will be "Prudence (because we don''t have much choice with ambition(well, as much as we can afford)

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

Scenario 1

Turnover                £70m

Debt reduction       £20m.

Non Playing staff    £3.5m

Other costs            £5.5m

 

Player wages and transfers etc.  £41m

 

Scenario 2

£10m for debt reduction and £51m for player wages and transfers.

 

and Lambert is the sort of manager that would make those amounts go along way.

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="morty"]
I don''t think people realise just how precarious our position is right now, I dread to think what would happen if we don''t go up this season.

[/quote]

AXA and the Bank of Scotland give NCFC Plc another years holiday from servicing the debt?

Have a look at the recently published NCFC Plc Accounts regarding those debts.

[morty 0]

[quote user="Tangible Fixed Assets anyone"]

[quote user="morty"]I don''t think people realise just how precarious our position is right now, I dread to think what would happen if we don''t go up this season.[/quote]

AXA and the Bank of Scotland give NCFC Plc another years holiday from servicing the debt?

Have a look at the recently published NCFC Plc Accounts regarding those debts.

[/quote]1. I have no idea, but banks are bastards and not known for charity.2. No, I''m only vaguely interested to be honest.

[morty 0]

[quote user="Tangible Fixed Assets anyone"]

Scenario 1

Turnover                £70m

Debt reduction       £20m.

Non Playing staff    £3.5m

Other costs            £5.5m

 

Player wages and transfers etc.  £41m

 

Scenario 2

£10m for debt reduction and £51m for player wages and transfers.

 

and Lambert is the sort of manager that would make those amounts go along way.

[/quote]Sorry, but what is that meant to mean?What are the two scenarios exactly?You have just posted a lot of figures there without saying what they are meant to represent.

[YankeeCanary 0]

Morty, in an innocent way you have just questioned Tangie''s raison d''etre on this message board since his commencement.

[lappinitup 629]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="Tangible Fixed Assets anyone"]

Scenario 1

Turnover                £70m

Debt reduction       £20m.

Non Playing staff    £3.5m

Other costs            £5.5m

 

Player wages and transfers etc.  £41m

 

Scenario 2

£10m for debt reduction and £51m for player wages and transfers.

 

and Lambert is the sort of manager that would make those amounts go along way.

[/quote]

Sorry, but what is that meant to mean?

What are the two scenarios exactly?

You have just posted a lot of figures there without saying what they are meant to represent.
[/quote]Morty. Welcome to the world of C.G.F.P.A. (the Chartered Guild of Fag Packet Accountants! [:D]

 

[morty 0]

[quote user="lappinitup"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Tangible Fixed Assets anyone"]

Scenario 1

Turnover                £70m

Debt reduction       £20m.

Non Playing staff    £3.5m

Other costs            £5.5m

 

Player wages and transfers etc.  £41m

 

Scenario 2

£10m for debt reduction and £51m for player wages and transfers.

 

and Lambert is the sort of manager that would make those amounts go along way.

[/quote]Sorry, but what is that meant to mean?What are the two scenarios exactly?You have just posted a lot of figures there without saying what they are meant to represent.[/quote]Morty. Welcome to the world of C.G.F.P.A. (the Chartered Guild of Fag Packet Accountants! [:D]

 

[/quote]I think its time to make my excuses and leave.[:)]

[kdncfc 0]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="thefutureisyellow"]Money is always going to be the big issue for every club Morty, but that should not be used as an excuse for lack of ambition.We have blown a hell of a lot of money in recent times due to repeated mistakes by Board and Management, a reasonable amount of new money spent wisely by a good manager, introducing quality into a winning and well motivated  team should at least give us a chance [/quote]

But what we have done, in blowing so much stupid money over the last few years is put ourselves in a position where we really can''t over extend ourselves until we chip a bit off the debt.

We''re only surviving and being competitive now because we have negotiated with our creditors and put payments off till next season.

We will have to tighten the pursestrings for a few years unless we can get new investment in, which I personally doubt. I honestly don''t think there will be next money available to strengthen the squad next season and we will do well to finish mid table with the squad we have and maybe a few others.

We have to be realistic in our expectations, and if they are exceeded, then all the better. If we can consolidate for a season in the Champ and chip 5 mil off the debt then that will give us the spends to push on the following season. But the only way we will do that is either a massive hike in prices, a good cup run, or sell a player.
[/quote]

Mcnally seemed pretty confident that we would get investment at the agm, from what he said I think we will get investment probably sometime during the summer. If that investment is a couple of million quid then it will not be enough to make much difference on the pitch but I am clinging to the hope that there will be a full scale takeover with significant funds made avaliable to spend on players. If that happens with Lambert at the helm I''d be confident of making the play offs provided of course we get promoted this season.

[Jacko 0]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="Tangible Fixed Assets anyone"]

[quote user="morty"]
I don''t think people realise just how precarious our position is right now, I dread to think what would happen if we don''t go up this season.

[/quote]

AXA and the Bank of Scotland give NCFC Plc another years holiday from servicing the debt?

Have a look at the recently published NCFC Plc Accounts regarding those debts.

[/quote]

1. I have no idea, but banks are bastards and not known for charity.

2. No, I''m only vaguely interested to be honest.
[/quote]

As we all know. We are around £23 million in the red. Ironically when you are this amount in debt in a perverse sort of way it can work to your advantage. The banks are willingly to make quite a few concessions because remember the old saying. When you are £5k in debt its your problem, when you are £5 million in debt thats the banks problem.

[morty 0]

[quote user="kdncfc"]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="thefutureisyellow"]Money is always going to be the big issue for every club Morty, but that should not be used as an excuse for lack of ambition.We have blown a hell of a lot of money in recent times due to repeated mistakes by Board and Management, a reasonable amount of new money spent wisely by a good manager, introducing quality into a winning and well motivated  team should at least give us a chance [/quote]But what we have done, in blowing so much stupid money over the last few years is put ourselves in a position where we really can''t over extend ourselves until we chip a bit off the debt.We''re only surviving and being competitive now because we have negotiated with our creditors and put payments off till next season.We will have to tighten the pursestrings for a few years unless we can get new investment in, which I personally doubt. I honestly don''t think there will be next money available to strengthen the squad next season and we will do well to finish mid table with the squad we have and maybe a few others. We have to be realistic in our expectations, and if they are exceeded, then all the better. If we can consolidate for a season in the Champ and chip 5 mil off the debt then that will give us the spends to push on the following season. But the only way we will do that is either a massive hike in prices, a good cup run, or sell a player.[/quote]

Mcnally seemed pretty confident that we would get investment at the agm, from what he said I think we will get investment probably sometime during the summer. If that investment is a couple of million quid then it will not be enough to make much difference on the pitch but I am clinging to the hope that there will be a full scale takeover with significant funds made avaliable to spend on players. If that happens with Lambert at the helm I''d be confident of making the play offs provided of course we get promoted this season.

[/quote]Well obviously he''s confident, he can''t sit at his desk and cry all day. But the amount of football teams who would love investment totals pretty much all of them so its a cutthroat game and its by no means a certainty. Like I said on the previous page, it really is down to the money, no investment means mid table consolidation in the Championship for a few seasons, investment means maybe being competitive enough to challenge.I have every confidence that Lambert and the board will rise to the occasion.

[Yellowfuture 71]

If you have every confidence that Lambert and the Board will raise to the occasion why do you constantly refer to this notion of "mid table consolidation". What does that even mean, is it something like constipation or paralysis. I would rather be in a bottom of the table dog fight than "mid table consolidation."  If you have such confidence in the Board then expect  them to do their job and attract investment, I`m not sure about the board  yet but I hope your confidence is  not misguided and they do  attract money to the club and we do take some considered risks to help get back up to the top flight.

[morty 0]

[quote user="thefutureisyellow"]

If you have every confidence that Lambert and the Board will raise to the occasion why do you constantly refer to this notion of "mid table consolidation". What does that even mean, is it something like constipation or paralysis. I would rather be in a bottom of the table dog fight than "mid table consolidation."  If you have such confidence in the Board then expect  them to do their job and attract investment, I`m not sure about the board  yet but I hope your confidence is  not misguided and they do  attract money to the club and we do take some considered risks to help get back up to the top flight.

[/quote]Because, as I said ages ago, its all linked to whether or not we can get investment in.You can ask people till you''re blue in the face for money, but if they don''t have it to invest, they don''t have it. There are financial hard times all around and much publicity about insolvency in football, all of which adds up to investors probably being very cautious where they invest their money.With the money we have to spend, and the debt we have to service I do not think we can be better than mid table Championship right now. If we stay in the Championship a season and knock some money off the debt, then we will have further funds the following season to be competitive. I am basing this on the premise that we do not attract and further investment for reasons stated above.It isn''t lack of ambition, its the stark reality of the financial situation we are in.

[Yellowfuture 71]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="thefutureisyellow"]

If you have every confidence that Lambert and the Board will raise to the occasion why do you constantly refer to this notion of "mid table consolidation". What does that even mean, is it something like constipation or paralysis. I would rather be in a bottom of the table dog fight than "mid table consolidation."  If you have such confidence in the Board then expect  them to do their job and attract investment, I`m not sure about the board  yet but I hope your confidence is  not misguided and they do  attract money to the club and we do take some considered risks to help get back up to the top flight.

[/quote]

Because, as I said ages ago, its all linked to whether or not we can get investment in.

You can ask people till you''re blue in the face for money, but if they don''t have it to invest, they don''t have it. There are financial hard times all around and much publicity about insolvency in football, all of which adds up to investors probably being very cautious where they invest their money.

With the money we have to spend, and the debt we have to service I do not think we can be better than mid table Championship right now. If we stay in the Championship a season and knock some money off the debt, then we will have further funds the following season to be competitive. I am basing this on the premise that we do not attract and further investment for reasons stated above.

It isn''t lack of ambition, its the stark reality of the financial situation we are in.
[/quote]

 

 

Getting investment into the club is a bit  more than asking people till your blue in the face Morty, we`re not asking mum for sweets, we should be trying to present an oppertunity for investment in a dynamic well managed ambitious club thats on the up. Thats what the board should be doing, and if as you say you have  every confidence in them then why the long face?

[morty 0]

[quote user="thefutureisyellow"][quote user="morty"][quote user="thefutureisyellow"]

If you have every confidence that Lambert and the Board will raise to the occasion why do you constantly refer to this notion of "mid table consolidation". What does that even mean, is it something like constipation or paralysis. I would rather be in a bottom of the table dog fight than "mid table consolidation."  If you have such confidence in the Board then expect  them to do their job and attract investment, I`m not sure about the board  yet but I hope your confidence is  not misguided and they do  attract money to the club and we do take some considered risks to help get back up to the top flight.

[/quote]Because, as I said ages ago, its all linked to whether or not we can get investment in.You can ask people till you''re blue in the face for money, but if they don''t have it to invest, they don''t have it. There are financial hard times all around and much publicity about insolvency in football, all of which adds up to investors probably being very cautious where they invest their money.With the money we have to spend, and the debt we have to service I do not think we can be better than mid table Championship right now. If we stay in the Championship a season and knock some money off the debt, then we will have further funds the following season to be competitive. I am basing this on the premise that we do not attract and further investment for reasons stated above.It isn''t lack of ambition, its the stark reality of the financial situation we are in.[/quote]

 

 

Getting investment into the club is a bit  more than asking people till your blue in the face Morty, we`re not asking mum for sweets, we should be trying to present an oppertunity for investment in a dynamic well managed ambitious club thats on the up. Thats what the board should be doing, and if as you say you have  every confidence in them then why the long face?

[/quote]No long face here.My analysis is based on facts and reasonable expectations in the current financial climate, and its about time that a lot of Norwich city fans realised that we''re never going to win the Premiership, and that just reaching there will not be happening for a few years at least.If you read my post properly you will notice that in saying I have every confidence in the board and manager it was referring to my confidence to achieve great things if they have the sufficient funds to do so. And going right back to my original point, it is all about the money, gone are the days when a small team on a small budget could find themselves in the Premier league.

[Yellowfuture 71]

I  always read your posts properly if I am going to respond to them, they seem to wriggle a bit sometimes though, thanks for the lecture about fans expectations by the way, without dreams theres no point in being a fan.

[morty 0]

[quote user="thefutureisyellow"]I  always read your posts properly if I am going to respond to them, they seem to wriggle a bit sometimes though, thanks for the lecture about fans expectations by the way, without dreams theres no point in being a fan.[/quote]No wriggling, my opinion is that we need investment, and without it we are mid Champ at best.Of course I dream of us being in the Prem, but I am being realistic given our circumstances, and the need to right many financial wrongs that we have made over the last few years.Any time you need a further lecture just give me a shout.[:)]