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singing canary

is the premiership the promised land..?

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just wondering about this ,every clubs ambition is to get to the promised land cash windfall of millions ...or is it ...?

i have just been reading the amout of debt some of the premiership clubs have ,west ham portsmouth even manchester united owe milions .

forgive me as i am not really into clubs fianancial positions ,i am only really concerned about ours .but we are concerned about the debt we have but surely ours being alot less ,and a well supported club we must be in a much healthy position .

is the premiership such a good thing ..?  player wages are silly money and putting clubs into serious trouble ,and owe much more than we do .

so why on earth do so many rich people buying clubs out for silly money ...sounds like one hell of a risk to me , i think if i was loaded i would look for a safer bet and something that i would not lose millions overnight ..

so why do the loaded want to buy a football club when its proven its a very risky game .

 

 

 

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the term game sums it up

it is a sport, but business has taken over very quickly and heightened following sky''s role in the ealry nineties

I think what we are seeing is what we hold dear, our club, being questioned since business took over... many teams now have fans who feel disjointed from their clubs... in a position where they have seen the club there fathers and grandfathers support change completely into something they do not recognise

the loaded still believe they can make money but as we are seeing many are not making mnoey and shipping out very quickly

premiership is the promised land, but to stay there you need the money... not until we sort out the crazy wages, and distribution of money (which is not happening at all) to lower league clubs

this transfer window proved it, premiership clubs rarely buy from the championship and so the money stays within the big players of europe... as always the poorer get poorer

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NO, it''s not - it is the proverbial poisoned challice.

But i still want us to get there! Especially with McNally at the helm this time.

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well the premiership is not where the big problem lies.Premiership players by and large get a reasonable chunk compared to tv revenue or what their chairman rakes in etc etc.The major problem is that a league one club can pay (alledgedly) 8k a week for a player.Money in Division 3 (yep,last time i checked it was the domain of clubs such as bournemouth,luton,exeter,hartlepool,wigan [of course im talking traditionally]) is insane....I have no problem whatsoever with Rooney (the best player in the country) being paid a hefty wage.  I do however have a problem with players that would only just excel in a pub team being paid upwards of 5k a week.If you think of it objectively and take Walkers squad of our most succesful season (at least in my memory), the likes of D.Sutch would be on cerca 8k a week. Gossy as a goal scoring mf in the ilk of lampard would be on god knows how much,. Were they worth it? Probably not. Are the cureent, probably not.But until we stop being complete suckers to the business of football (and its worldwide....even if every man u fan in cheshire and lancashire boycotted the stadium, it would probably still fill and millions across asia would still pay to watch it on tv) then im afraid we only have urselves to blame....

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There are three tiers within the premiership.

There are the big boys whose revenue will support their continued involvement at the top of the game. I rather suspect that there is only one of them left now - Arsenal. Liverpool were there, but they were bought out in an expensive deal that over-valued the club by people who individually did not have the money to buy the club, and seemingly cannot work together. Manchester United were there, but again were bought out in an expensive deal that over-valued the club, and the deal was largely debt financed, with that debt (some of it, the PIK notes, astonishingly expensive, and for all intents and purposes, unable to be refinanced). Chelsea were never their. Their success has entirely been bought by the benevolence of their owner. Those three are now wholly dependant on the fortunes of their respective owners.

Then there are the mid-table clubs who should be in no fear of being relegated, but should be in no fear of achieving a champions league spot, like Spurs, Villa etc. They have the money to keep the dream alive, but will only be able to challenge the big 4 if the owners put their hands in their pockets.

Last, there are the Yo Yo clubs, where revenue might be enough to keep them afloat one year, but not the next.

Over all of these are th owner funded clubs, where their success or lack is entirely down to the fortunes of the owners, as the owners are not as cash rich as the fans have been led to believe. West Ham were in this boat, but I now believe them to be in the mi-table tier. Man City, Liverpool, Chelsea are in this boat. The reason that Villa is not in this boat is that Lerner is playing things more as a Steward than an Owner.

I personally think that in 1993-4, we were a mid-table club. Had Brian Gunn not got injured, I don''t think we would have been at any risk of relegation. I still believe our biggest mistake that year was taking Simon Tracy on loan from Sheff Utd, instead of buying Chris Woods back for £1m. Old? Yes. Has been? Probably. But I believe he still had the experience to give one more half season and keep us up. Alas, we will never know whether this was the case, or even why we didn''t. What I do know is that now it is very difficult for a club to be promoted and get out of the Yo Yo tier.

I would say we need a premiership 2 to get more TV money in to the lower leagues. But that has been comprehensively rejected.

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Disagree completely - the altitude must have got to you!!

Paying a player 8k a week in div3 or equivalent is clearly bonkers but it will get corrected very quickly because it''s totally unsustainable. It''s a hangover from poor management at larger clubs that have fallen through the ranks and failed to control their costs.

But everyone should have a big problem too with Rooney and co being on 150k a week. Long term, this is not sustainable either unless the premier league starts selling rights on a club by club basis, thus allowing the bigger clubs to get bigger and support their obscene wage bills. But doubt that will be allowed to happen.

Either way, those wages are a fast track to a premier league where the gap between top and bottom is too vast to have a meaningful competition. Clubs have tried to keep pace with the top level ones and the result is Portsmouth, West Ham and a financial time-bomb sitting inside more than half of premier league clubs just waiting to go boom when any of them get relegated. Reality is starting to kick in now and the gap will start to get bigger as clubs realise they will have to give up trying to even keep remotely close to Chelsea and co on wages. It''s exactly what happened at West Ham and as i''ve already said on here, it''s good to see Gold and Sullivan coming out publicly telling players that the party is over.

If team McNally get us to the premier, we better hope that moves are well under way to restore some order to football finance, otherwise it''ll be just like last time for us. Sure there will be moments when teams that are greater than the sum of their parts upset the form book and beat the galacticos, but it can''t be sustained. Just ask Reading.

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Owners of sports teams should be involved for the fun of it, for the exposure their business can garner, and for the love of the team. Owners have the team as a hobby, so if it does not make a profit, no biggie.

I find it odd people will buy a team and then fuss when it doesn''t make a profit.

Perhaps implementing a salary cap will make the divisions more competitive so the same 4 teams don''t dominate the Prem, the same teams don''t mid table the Prem, and the same teams don''t bounce back and forth between the top 2 divisions.

It works in the NFL and NBA where teams like Green Bay and San Antonio compete evenly with teams from NY and LA.

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[quote user="Northern Canary"]How are West Broms finances? I would have thought constantlly going up and down would be quite lucrative.[/quote]West Brom are a well run club, I am pretty sure they are all but debt free and none of their squad earn ''outlandish'' (in football terms) money. On Goals on Sunday the other day Megson was talking about how frustrating West Brom were, he felt they needed to spend big to stay in the Prem but the club wanted to control costs and not gamble.Players wages have to be kept under control, when Leeds went into League 1 initially they still had players on £40K+ per week, totally unsustainable. Utaka at Pourtsmouth is on a reported £80,000pw, and he hardly plays.Alan Sugar commented on the additional Sky money when he owned Spurs, his comment was along the lines of ''there is no point giving us extra money, we will only pi$$ it up the wall on wages''. As much of a knob as he is, he turned out to be correct!

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Well the prem is not my promised land.I rather enjoy being a big fish in a little pond.I mean, lets be brutaly honest here, just what would we achieve in the premiership ????Would we as fans enjoy being at best a mid table-relegation candidates every season ?The only people that would benifit from being a top flight club, would be share holders.As fans we would get to see our team spanked every other week.Sorry, but thats not my idea of fun.This leauge my not be glamourous, but the fans have loved every second of it.There is a lot to be said for fans actualy enjoying watching there team win more often than loose.Would we enjoy not being able to compete with most teams in the top flight ? certainly not my idea of fun !!!!!!

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For me, the Premier League has lost its allure.

It''s expensive. It''s orientated to big clubs with big squads. It contains a number of clubs of little interest supported by sugar daddies. You lose most of the time.

Having said that I bet Stoke fans have enjoyed beating up the big boys with their style of play.

If you try too hard to compete and fail you risk losing your club itself, not after one or two years but as Pompey prove, after any number of years.

The reason the BBC have created the football league show is because they can see the audience is there because outside the Premier League there are traditional big football clubs with history. The main games on this programme usually contain more crowd and passion than the second half of MoTD.

The Premier League needs restructuring and as a wage cap is never liable to be legal a structure should be imposed based upon debt and forbidding or limiting gift money from benefactors. We might even end up with more home grown players and more eligibility for England places.

Success should come from supporter generated revenue. If that was the case we would be middle Premier League but with a chance of occasional success.

The chance to dream has been stolen from the majority of fans in this country.

BTW loved seeing Everton beating Chelsea in their creaking old stadium tonight...and what an atmosphere. Wish there was more like that.

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[quote user="Houston Canary"]Owners of sports teams should be involved for the fun of it, for the exposure their business can garner, and for the love of the team. Owners have the team as a hobby, so if it does not make a profit, no biggie. I find it odd people will buy a team and then fuss when it doesn''t make a profit. Perhaps implementing a salary cap will make the divisions more competitive so the same 4 teams don''t dominate the Prem, the same teams don''t mid table the Prem, and the same teams don''t bounce back and forth between the top 2 divisions. It works in the NFL and NBA where teams like Green Bay and San Antonio compete evenly with teams from NY and LA.[/quote]

The trouble is that a salary cap wont ever come into place.  Why?

Well - football nowadays is a global not a national game.  Man U, Arsenal, Chelsea etc may play their weekly football in the Prem but they see themselves as Champions League - not Prem - clubs.  Their equals are not Villa, Spurs, Blackburn and Fulham, instead they mix with Milan, Barca, Madrid and Bayern

The next tier down are trying to get into this group - which is as much closed shop as the Prem.  Clubs may occasionally get in (Everton for example) but will yoyo in and out at best.  Its their club and they dont want anyone else in

So the Prem clubs formed their own little club again very hard to get in to.  Leeds Southampton Coventry etc fell out of it - as did Norwich although we were early doors Prem-wise.  As time goes on the Championship clubs will do the same and so on

Its always been like this in English football - the League used to have an ''election'' where the bottom 4 clubs in Div 4 had to face re-election to the league, and non-league clubs would apply.  Hardly any new teams got in - the league looked after its own.  Just as well for Norwich as we faced reelection a few times in the 30s and I think the early 50s

If you DID introduce a salary cap how would it work?  Percentage of turnover?  That will just increase the gap because the turnover of Arsenal, Man U et al will always outstrip the Norwichs.  A ''New player college'' system similar to the American football rookies?  Possibly.  But you''d have to make it Europe wide now.  And the coefficient system to determine between England''s League one and other leagues would be a nightmare...is it the same as Romanian division 1 or 2?  Bulgarian 2 or 3?  Scottish Div 2?  How would you work it?

Sky, UEFA and a few self interested clubs have ruined the game.  So lets try a different tack

End the TV deals - One live game per week maximum with the rest on highlights.  A maximum wage and maximum transfer fee.  Man U et al will almost surely walk off to their own TV special Euro league.  Fine.  Let them.  Ban their players from playing for international teams and transferring elsewhere.  The Euro clubs will be barred from all UEFA competitions.  People will get bored of them in the end and theyll be begging to come back.  It may take a few years but they''ll be back eventually

All league sides must field at least 6 of 11 players from their own country.  So England for us - not Wales, not Scotland, not Ireland.  Ownership of clubs must be approved by the national association - not the league

Champions League to be Champions ONLY - with the reintroduced CupWinners cup, perhaps to include the League cup winners too.  UEFA cup places to 3 or 4 teams in the league.  OK you may get less appealing sides - but you wont be watching it on TV

OK its going to be rubbish for those that like to watch footie 24/7...but we get our game back

....and Im starting to sound like one of Cluck''s purists....[8-|]

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[quote user="singing canary"]

just wondering about this ,every clubs ambition is to get to the promised land cash windfall of millions ...or is it ...?

i have just been reading the amout of debt some of the premiership clubs have ,west ham portsmouth even manchester united owe milions .

forgive me as i am not really into clubs fianancial positions ,i am only really concerned about ours .but we are concerned about the debt we have but surely ours being alot less ,and a well supported club we must be in a much healthy position .

is the premiership such a good thing ..?  player wages are silly money and putting clubs into serious trouble ,and owe much more than we do .

so why on earth do so many rich people buying clubs out for silly money ...sounds like one hell of a risk to me , i think if i was loaded i would look for a safer bet and something that i would not lose millions overnight ..

so why do the loaded want to buy a football club when its proven its a very risky game .

 

 

 

[/quote]

 

When people talk about the Premiership as the promised land I think it is very much a misnomer. So many clubs who have got promoted and have been subsequently relegated are now in a much worse position. You only have to have a quick glance at league 1 to see that clubs like Norwich, Leeds, Southampton, Charlton have steadily declined since dropping out of the Premier league. Palace, Reading and Derby in the championship are examples of clubs who have also struggled.

However ultimately despite the fact it can ruin your team it is definately the place you want to play your football. I will never forget winning 2-0 against the Yarmouth boys and Safri''s screamer against Newcastle. The Premiership is the promised land because all supporters should aspire for their team to reach the highest level possible. Otherwise what is the point in following the team?

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Some excellent points, BH. I don''t think we need to cut the amount of programming, though. Fans want it so it''s on. If they didn''t the programming would be replaced by something more popular.

The salary cap could be implemented with a grand f you to the tournaments the top 6 get into. It''s likely just me, but I don''t get much pleasure from watching Prem games that feature hardly any English players or managers. Let Barca and Inter buy up all the top players and ruin their leagues while they win these cup competitions. If England had a cap, either the other leagues would follow suit or the amound they paid for the top players would at least come down.

I do not think a cap would be illegal since the FA private organization, a business run by owners who can run their organization as they see fit, is it not? If so, then the courts can''t tell them what to do if they vote for a salary cap.

Probably just me, but I''ve never given much of a care about the inter-league cups. I''d far rather do well in England than Europe. Do the matches get very good TV ratings to make the broadcasters dish out so much money to show them? Who besides a few Swiss and Greeks even cares when Grasshoppers play Pathinakos in Round 2? Why would they? Like I said, it''s probably just me.

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Perhaps the answer to all these dull and uninspiring Europe wide games would be to revert to a competition held solely in our own country and call it a world series?

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Interesting point, perhaps the time really is coming where you have to be realistic about where your football team fits on the big ladder.When we were flying high in the Prem the football world really was a much different place, very little Sky money and the vast majority of players were from the UK and not on a great deal of money.And just as the great money revolution began we dropped out (We all know the reasons, lets not discuss further)I think that over the next few years clubs are truly going to find their level, and the inevitable drop in wages will attract less foreign superstars and the emphasis will again switch round to home grown talent.Maybe we need to be happy with being a top half Championship side thats well run and not drowning in debt, and maybe, with a bit of good fortune as the "bigger" sides start to decline we may be well placed to sneak up on them.

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[quote user="morty"]Interesting point, perhaps the time really is coming where you have to be realistic about where your football team fits on the big ladder.

When we were flying high in the Prem the football world really was a much different place, very little Sky money and the vast majority of players were from the UK and not on a great deal of money.

And just as the great money revolution began we dropped out (We all know the reasons, lets not discuss further)

I think that over the next few years clubs are truly going to find their level, and the inevitable drop in wages will attract less foreign superstars and the emphasis will again switch round to home grown talent.

Maybe we need to be happy with being a top half Championship side thats well run and not drowning in debt, and maybe, with a bit of good fortune as the "bigger" sides start to decline we may be well placed to sneak up on them.
[/quote]

 

Could''nt agree more. Particularly if you look at our  league finishes since about 1995. We have only finished in the top six twice in that time and spent one season in the premier league. So if we are looking at this rationally to be a top half championship team would be a pretty decent achievement.

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[quote user="Yarmyed"]

[quote user="morty"]Interesting point, perhaps the time really is coming where you have to be realistic about where your football team fits on the big ladder.When we were flying high in the Prem the football world really was a much different place, very little Sky money and the vast majority of players were from the UK and not on a great deal of money.And just as the great money revolution began we dropped out (We all know the reasons, lets not discuss further)I think that over the next few years clubs are truly going to find their level, and the inevitable drop in wages will attract less foreign superstars and the emphasis will again switch round to home grown talent.Maybe we need to be happy with being a top half Championship side thats well run and not drowning in debt, and maybe, with a bit of good fortune as the "bigger" sides start to decline we may be well placed to sneak up on them.[/quote]

 

Could''nt agree more. Particularly if you look at our  league finishes since about 1995. We have only finished in the top six twice in that time and spent one season in the premier league. So if we are looking at this rationally to be a top half championship team would be a pretty decent achievement.

[/quote]I think that our last promotion to the Prem took us by surprise a little, and we were badly prepared for it (Dean Ashton in at the start of the season would have made all the difference)I would rather see us go up this year and consolidate our position in the Champ, reducing the debt, maybe developing some players and selling them on for profit (Before you all start selling the odd player is fine, selling ALL our best players isn''t Mr Chase)Reducing the debt is the key, because that gives you the flexibility to be able to afford to push the boat if you really think the time is right.

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[quote user="Yarmyed"]

[quote user="morty"]Interesting point, perhaps the time really is coming where you have to be realistic about where your football team fits on the big ladder.

When we were flying high in the Prem the football world really was a much different place, very little Sky money and the vast majority of players were from the UK and not on a great deal of money.

And just as the great money revolution began we dropped out (We all know the reasons, lets not discuss further)

I think that over the next few years clubs are truly going to find their level, and the inevitable drop in wages will attract less foreign superstars and the emphasis will again switch round to home grown talent.

Maybe we need to be happy with being a top half Championship side thats well run and not drowning in debt, and maybe, with a bit of good fortune as the "bigger" sides start to decline we may be well placed to sneak up on them.
[/quote]

 

Could''nt agree more. Particularly if you look at our  league finishes since about 1995. We have only finished in the top six twice in that time and spent one season in the premier league. So if we are looking at this rationally to be a top half championship team would be a pretty decent achievement.

[/quote]

Just because we have been rubbish on a pretty consistent basis over the last 15 years it doesn''t mean we should lower your expectations for the future, we have just as much right as plenty of other clubs to be in the prem and top 6 in the Championship should be the absolute minimum of our aspirations imo. When we finally started to compete in the last few prem games the excitement I felt at beating Manure and Newcastle far outweighed anything I have since experienced at Carrow Road and I for one can''t wait until we get there again. Whatever business you are in you should always aim high, for me the prem is still the place to be. This season has been ok but even though we have been winning games the excitement levels just haven''t been the same for me as they would have been if we were winning games in the Championship.

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That is the stupidest comment you have come up with in ages, RuPhuck. Maybe you didn''t bother reading my comment of the one it was responding to, but I doubt it. You are just that limited in material.

PuPhunk, have you noticed how many other commenters have wished you would keep your dullness to yourself? It''s not that they disagree with you, it''s that your comments are pointless and boring.

You are welcome for the "heads up". Now try to do better. That''s a good lad.

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Is the enjoyment of football not more in the matchday atmosphere, the cameraderie, and in willing your team to win every match rather than the particular tier they do it in? I must say I don''t feel that I enjoyed watching Norwich playing in the Premiership any more than I am enjoying watching them play now. Taking NCFC out of the equation for a moment, I get as much enjoyment watching non-league matches as I do watching international tournaments. NCFC are ''my'' team because my father and his father supported them and because they are the first team I watched as a child. I will enjoy watching them play and shouting my encouragement each game regardless of which division they are in. I am finding this push for promotion from LEague One every bit as exciting as the run to the Championship title a few years back. I want them to get promotion each season because I enjoy seeing them winning and I enjoy the exitement of hoping they won''t fall at the final hurdle, but I don''t enjoy the games any more once they get there.

The standard of football ojn display may be higher in the Premiership, but is the enjoyment of supporting your team any greater for it?

 

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[quote user="Chip20"]

Is the enjoyment of football not more in the matchday atmosphere, the cameraderie, and in willing your team to win every match rather than the particular tier they do it in? I must say I don''t feel that I enjoyed watching Norwich playing in the Premiership any more than I am enjoying watching them play now. Taking NCFC out of the equation for a moment, I get as much enjoyment watching non-league matches as I do watching international tournaments. NCFC are ''my'' team because my father and his father supported them and because they are the first team I watched as a child. I will enjoy watching them play and shouting my encouragement each game regardless of which division they are in. I am finding this push for promotion from LEague One every bit as exciting as the run to the Championship title a few years back. I want them to get promotion each season because I enjoy seeing them winning and I enjoy the exitement of hoping they won''t fall at the final hurdle, but I don''t enjoy the games any more once they get there.

The standard of football ojn display may be higher in the Premiership, but is the enjoyment of supporting your team any greater for it?

 

[/quote]

We''re all different, glad you do feel as excited with this seasons promotion push as the Championship promotion season but like I said it just hasn''t been the same for me.

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[quote user="RUDOLPH HUCKER"]Perhaps the answer to all these dull and uninspiring Europe wide games would be to revert to a competition held solely in our own country and call it a world series?[/quote]

No need to "revert" to anything Rudolph. You already have something comparable to the world series. Every week I smile as I watch the English commentators puff out their respective chests with exclamations such as, "This, after all, is the English Premiership" or "You know you have to be at your best in the English Premiership." These utterances occur with great regularity despite the fact that English players are few and far between. You see Rudolph, they might as well call it the World Premiership. The "English" reference to Premiership is akin to what the baseball "Series" in the United States is to "World." Misleading.

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[quote user="YankeeCanary"][quote user="RUDOLPH HUCKER"]Perhaps the answer to all these dull and uninspiring Europe wide games would be to revert to a competition held solely in our own country and call it a world series?[/quote] No need to "revert" to anything Rudolph. You already have something comparable to the world series. Every week I smile as I watch the English commentators puff out their respective chests with exclamations such as, "This, after all, is the English Premiership" or "You know you have to be at your best in the English Premiership." These utterances occur with great regularity despite the fact that English players are few and far between. You see Rudolph, they might as well call it the World Premiership. The "English" reference to Premiership is akin to what the baseball "Series" in the United States is to "World." Misleading.[/quote]

FFS. At least they don''t claim that it''s the World Premiership!

And my recollection is that far more references are made to ''The Barclays Premier League'' than to ''The English Premiership'' in pursuit of raising the profile of its sponsors a successful English multinational.............

OTBC  

 

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On the point of silly wages being paid in the Premiership now, I read something today from Graham Taylor that staggered me. He said that Watford (Championship) currently have some players that are on FIVE times the wages that players were on the last time Watford were in the Premiership. Ridiculous! No wonder so many clubs are in trouble.

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[quote user="Pablo Picarsole"]On the point of silly wages being paid in the Premiership now, I read something today from Graham Taylor that staggered me. He said that Watford (Championship) currently have some players that are on FIVE times the wages that players were on the last time Watford were in the Premiership. Ridiculous! No wonder so many clubs are in trouble.[/quote]It suits everyone involved though, push the players wages up, managers and agents go up etc etc.I bet Graham Taylor doesn''t moan about HIS wages lol.

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A more positive spin on Morty''s assertion that clubs will all find their levels, ours could be higher than we think.

Someone posted some stats last week on average gates and we were in the top 20.

So if the ''level'' is roughly correlated to gates, we could be a lower prem team. Which in reality could mean a life of relegation and promotion!

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[quote user="a1canary"]A more positive spin on Morty''s assertion that clubs will all find their levels, ours could be higher than we think.

Someone posted some stats last week on average gates and we were in the top 20.

So if the ''level'' is roughly correlated to gates, we could be a lower prem team. Which in reality could mean a life of relegation and promotion![/quote]I would hope so, but was trying to keep it realistic.Our gate figures mean little though because most of the money is going to servicing the debt, once we reduce the debt, and have more of it to spend, then we will really see the benefit.

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What you forget though M is that we''re all in the same boat. I can''t think of many clubs at that level who don''t also have big debts to service.

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