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Panic

There's something not quite right here....

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As the

UK continues to scrape itself through ''The Recession'', it was

announced last week that Man Utd had now racked up debts of £700

Million. That''s right folks, the “Most Successful Club in the

World” (sic) are now financially, and to use the correct term,

screwed. Somehow selling the world''s most expensive player has done

more worse for them than good, as the actual point of the football

club (playing football, in case you didn''t know) has been hindered as

a result of Ronaldo''s departure.

There

really must be something wrong with football here when Manchester

United, a club who''s name is simply synonymous with success (whether

you like it or not), has got itself into a terrible state of affairs

where they are generating more column inches in the Financial Times

than 4-4-2 Magazine.

Finance

in football as always had to be uneasily accepted, but now, with the

era of ''getting the Sheiks in'' and ''Munto Finance'', some football

clubs are now seemingly condemned to disaster. Our good selves are in

debt by £20 million and this is actually taken as a good thing when

we compare ourselves to say, Notts County or Crystal Palace or are

always seemingly on the brink of liquidation, or have received a

winding up order. Financial plight has now happened to so many clubs,

we know that Portsmouth will be a Division Three (sorry, ''League

One'') club in a few years time, having ''done a Leeds''. Teams no

longer get relegated because they are crap at football; as one always

has to check that asterisk next to that club''s name, and find they''ve been

deducted 25 points for going in to administration, or that the

''parent holding company'' was liquidated the season before. Division

Four, last year, was an absolute farce, when Darlington where

deducted 10 points, Bournemouth 17, Rotherham 17 and Luton 30.

Chester, who got relegated from the Football League last year, are

still in deep trouble, and where almost wiped out of existence at the

start of the season.

I am

only 18. As such I have only ever experienced the ''Premier League

era''. I have never stood on a terrace and I can''t remember any other

team winning the top league apart from Arsenal, Man Utd or Chelsea.

When I started to properly watch football, roughly when Norwich got

to the Play Off Final, the record English transfer fee was £ 29 000

000, so that''s effectively more than doubled in 9 years. This era of

affluence has now crashed down on many clubs (look at the ITV Digital

saga, which still rumbles on to this day), so I ask you; can football

get out of this?

P.S. Sorry

about posting this amongst the positivity today, but I just read

the BBC''s article about Portsmouth suing the Premier League and I

wanted to vent my spleen.

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its all because of cars

as the oil, petrol prices went up and they are the people buying the clubs. they then leave them in an awful state!

 

football is a business now, and no longer a sport!

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[quote user="Panic"]

As the UK continues to scrape itself through ''The Recession'', it was announced last week that Man Utd had now racked up debts of £700 Million. That''s right folks, the “Most Successful Club in the World” (sic) are now financially, and to use the correct term, screwed. Somehow selling the world''s most expensive player has done more worse for them than good, as the actual point of the football club (playing football, in case you didn''t know) has been hindered as a result of Ronaldo''s departure.

There really must be something wrong with football here when Manchester United, a club who''s name is simply synonymous with success (whether you like it or not), has got itself into a terrible state of affairs where they are generating more column inches in the Financial Times than 4-4-2 Magazine.

Finance in football as always had to be uneasily accepted, but now, with the era of ''getting the Sheiks in'' and ''Munto Finance'', some football clubs are now seemingly condemned to disaster. Our good selves are in debt by £20 million and this is actually taken as a good thing when we compare ourselves to say, Notts County or Crystal Palace or are always seemingly on the brink of liquidation, or have received a winding up order. Financial plight has now happened to so many clubs, we know that Portsmouth will be a Division Three (sorry, ''League One'') club in a few years time, having ''done a Leeds''. Teams no longer get relegated because they are crap at football; as one always has to check that asterisk next to that club''s name, and find they''ve been deducted 25 points for going in to administration, or that the ''parent holding company'' was liquidated the season before. Division Four, last year, was an absolute farce, when Darlington where deducted 10 points, Bournemouth 17, Rotherham 17 and Luton 30. Chester, who got relegated from the Football League last year, are still in deep trouble, and where almost wiped out of existence at the start of the season.

I am only 18. As such I have only ever experienced the ''Premier League era''. I have never stood on a terrace and I can''t remember any other team winning the top league apart from Arsenal, Man Utd or Chelsea. When I started to properly watch football, roughly when Norwich got to the Play Off Final, the record English transfer fee was £ 29 000 000, so that''s effectively more than doubled in 9 years. This era of affluence has now crashed down on many clubs (look at the ITV Digital saga, which still rumbles on to this day), so I ask you; can football get out of this?


P.S. Sorry about posting this amongst the positivity today, but I just read the BBC''s article about Portsmouth suing the Premier League and I wanted to vent my spleen.

[/quote]

 

I think the Man Ure situation illustrates perfectly the move away from owners who were "football people", like Hill-Wood at Arsenal to people looking to make money. The most gobsmacking statistic for me was the fact that the Glazers took £10m out in "fees" last year as well as a further £10m in loans. They are effectively parasites feeding off the club''s success and will have no qualms about dumping it when it suits them to do so. While Delia has many faults, there is no doubt that she has empathy for the fans, but that is something which is dying out at the top of the game, where football''s soul has been sold completely.

Perhaps Portsmouth''s inevitable collapse will finally bring some reason to the situation, but I genuinely doubt it.

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Yes. I genuinely believe that Portmouth will not be any more come the end of the season, or will be crippled point deductions.And the fact that the Glazers took 10 mil for themselves is beyond words.

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Don''t even get me started with the Glazers. I live in Tampa Bay Florida home of the  Tampa Bay Buccaneers...They own the bucs and are ruining this team also. The Payroll of the team they are putting on the field is one of the lowest in all of football and that is cause of the financial mess they are in with Man Utd. They are putting it all on them. There is a salary cap in the NFL and also a minimum of how much you can spend. The minimum is always 75% of the cap. So say its $120 Mil the cap would be 80 Mil....Well I know this year they were I believe 35 Million under the cap and one of the lowest spenders...And this year we won a whopping 3 games...Yes 3 it was terrible. The Stadiums were half full and personally I think it was great. They had the city of Tampa Bay pay for the stadium through taxes or they said they were going to move the team and they get every single penny of the profits. The City only gets whatever tax revenue is brought in which is not that much. Everyone here is dropping season tickets and they are going to struggle even more. If it was not for Revenue sharing they would be done. It''s a shame what they are doing to Man Utd especially when I hear they are having to pay 12k in interest for debt every hour...Crazy money.....Slowly but surely hopefully a big club will fail and football will come to some normalcy. No way teams can afford players on 150k a week.

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[quote user="Panic"]

As the UK continues to scrape itself through ''The Recession'', it was announced last week that Man Utd had now racked up debts of £700 Million. That''s right folks, the “Most Successful Club in the World” (sic) are now financially, and to use the correct term, screwed. Somehow selling the world''s most expensive player has done more worse for them than good, as the actual point of the football club (playing football, in case you didn''t know) has been hindered as a result of Ronaldo''s departure.

There really must be something wrong with football here when Manchester United, a club who''s name is simply synonymous with success (whether you like it or not), has got itself into a terrible state of affairs where they are generating more column inches in the Financial Times than 4-4-2 Magazine.

Finance in football as always had to be uneasily accepted, but now, with the era of ''getting the Sheiks in'' and ''Munto Finance'', some football clubs are now seemingly condemned to disaster. Our good selves are in debt by £20 million and this is actually taken as a good thing when we compare ourselves to say, Notts County or Crystal Palace or are always seemingly on the brink of liquidation, or have received a winding up order. Financial plight has now happened to so many clubs, we know that Portsmouth will be a Division Three (sorry, ''League One'') club in a few years time, having ''done a Leeds''. Teams no longer get relegated because they are crap at football; as one always has to check that asterisk next to that club''s name, and find they''ve been deducted 25 points for going in to administration, or that the ''parent holding company'' was liquidated the season before. Division Four, last year, was an absolute farce, when Darlington where deducted 10 points, Bournemouth 17, Rotherham 17 and Luton 30. Chester, who got relegated from the Football League last year, are still in deep trouble, and where almost wiped out of existence at the start of the season.

I am only 18. As such I have only ever experienced the ''Premier League era''. I have never stood on a terrace and I can''t remember any other team winning the top league apart from Arsenal, Man Utd or Chelsea. When I started to properly watch football, roughly when Norwich got to the Play Off Final, the record English transfer fee was £ 29 000 000, so that''s effectively more than doubled in 9 years. This era of affluence has now crashed down on many clubs (look at the ITV Digital saga, which still rumbles on to this day), so I ask you; can football get out of this?


P.S. Sorry about posting this amongst the positivity today, but I just read the BBC''s article about Portsmouth suing the Premier League and I wanted to vent my spleen.

[/quote]

Panic,

Don''t apologise for being 18!! Your post is extremely sensible and puts many, far more experienced posters on this board to shame.

Unfortunately fans are only just now waking up to what has been obvious for many years now and that the Great God called ''Money'' is eroding the national game and killing the ''sporting'' ethos. The aboslute worse thing to ever happen to football was to sell its'' soul to Murdoch and Sky TV with this absurd ''brand'' called The Premiership. Ok so we have seen a handful of top foreign players play in the UK and for sure the likes of Bergkamp, Henry, Zola , Fabregas and Torres are / were world class but Premiership clubs have spent millions on a whole conveyor belt of massively overpaid and overated players many of those from abroad (as Liverpool fans!). Wages have lost all touch with reality and this hyperinflation has cascaded down to The Championship and even beyond. NCFC are no exception as our expenses continually exceed income with the Board desperately trying to stay ''competitive''. They are ....''chasing a dream'' as Peter Risdale put it with our debt growing by 50% since all debts were ''consolidated'' in 2003 into the AXA loan.

Problem is many posters on this board want a new ''wealthy owner'', never mind who, never mind the motives just grab the money. And what  do these fans want it spent on? Not on paying off debt that''s for sure but to lavish ever more crazy amounts on transfer fees and wages. Well, recent (and current) events may be just proving to everyone that football in this country needs to wake up big style and ''reclaim the game''. It''s rubbish to say that ........''there''s nothing fans can do'' etc. Do you really think that if 75,000 people boycotted Old Trafford that the Glazers would hang around for long?  Of course  not, they would sell up and get the hell out of the UK.

Football fans have a choice - either stand up, as one, and end this madness or just do nothing, pay up and shut up like we do now!

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[quote user="Legend Iwan"]Panic have a read of this another good view - http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2010/jan/17/premier-league-owners [/quote]

That is a top notch article Legend and pretty much hits the nail on the head I would say!

I would much rather NCFC drive down all wages and costs to match income with excess going to gradually repaying our crushing debt. Sure we would be instantly ''uncompetitive'' and with Lambert and top players leaving we would fall away and may be even settle for a while in Div. 4! Much better that though than our debt continually rising (as it will) until adminsitration (or possible worse kicks in).

It would break my heart to see the current euphoria evaporate but what I want is a viable, well run club competing at a reasonably high level in English football to still be around in 5, 10, 15, 20 years time. If we carry on as we are now we just might not be. Make no mistake, how much longer are a tin pot town like Wigan going to keep a top football club that now carries a £48M debt! Not just them, the list is almost endless. Time is being called on the train of madness that so many people have been blinded to now since 1992 fooled by that buffoon called Scudamore. The money has very nearly run out and onlt those that take drastic action will survive.   

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Yes that Guardian article is quality^It''s grim reading everywhere at the moment with rich owners. They''re is always something dodgy about them. Take the club down the road, their owner has never shown his face in public. is this becuase;a. He''s a shy chap and also quite modest about his wealth. The fact that his name is printed on the clubs shirt is just a coincidence and he will always have the club''s interest at heart,orb. He doesn''t want anyone to know who he is, as he''s been a tax exile in for 15 years; apparently living in Bermuda. His company has taken a hit by the financial crisis and this may or may not mean he can continue to run the club, and if he can''t, he''d rather not get chased out of Suffolk.

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My understanding (and I might be wrong) is that Man Utd were not in debt until the Glazers took over. They were, in actual fact, probably the richest club in the world. However, because the Glazers were able to buy the entire shareholding, financial regulations (nothing to do with football rules) allowed the Glazers to use United to borrow the money to effectively repay them for buying the club. United went from being dent free to £600m in debt very quickly.

This is a very simplistic explanation but I think it is basically what happened (unless there is someone out there who can correct me).

The big problem that all the top clubs have is that Sky are likely to lose their stranglehold on football soon and will be forced by the EU to sell matches to BT, Virgin etc who will sell it to their customers at a much lower price than we have to pay Sky at the moment.

If this does happen, the amount paid by Television to the Premier League will probably fall, and Portrsmouth, West Ham and Man U (and Sky TV) won''t be the only ones in trouble.

Sky TV, by the way, have lost record numbers of customers in the last 12 months........

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Guest
So what we''re actually saying is that when (paraphrasing) Delia suggested that "foreign owners" might not have the games best interests at heart, and could possibly damage the integrity and success of the sport, she actually had a point?My days... [;)]

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I can''t believe that the previous Man Utd board were that naive and stupid to allow someone to buy the club but use the club as capital for the loan. They are really up the poo creek and will have to sell even more. I fear that football will go pop soon, the likes of West Brom, Wolves, Arsenal and Stoke should be applauded, well as long as I have my facts right.

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[quote user="dylanisabaddog"]My understanding (and I might be wrong) is that Man Utd were not in debt until the Glazers took over. They were, in actual fact, probably the richest club in the world. However, because the Glazers were able to buy the entire shareholding, financial regulations (nothing to do with football rules) allowed the Glazers to use United to borrow the money to effectively repay them for buying the club. United went from being dent free to £600m in debt very quickly. This is a very simplistic explanation but I think it is basically what happened (unless there is someone out there who can correct me). The big problem that all the top clubs have is that Sky are likely to lose their stranglehold on football soon and will be forced by the EU to sell matches to BT, Virgin etc who will sell it to their customers at a much lower price than we have to pay Sky at the moment. If this does happen, the amount paid by Television to the Premier League will probably fall, and Portrsmouth, West Ham and Man U (and Sky TV) won''t be the only ones in trouble. Sky TV, by the way, have lost record numbers of customers in the last 12 months........[/quote]

Your understanding is pretty much correct as far as Man Ure are concerned. As for the Sky money, what we have in football is not dissimilar to a stockmarket bubble. At the moment, like Coyote in the Roadrunner cartoons, no-one has yet looked down and realised that, although they are still running, they are way beyond the cliff edge.When Pompey fall it will be the beginning of the bubble bursting because,as with shares, once doubt sets in only one thing will happen.

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My honest opinion is that Portsmouth will be the first Premier League club to go completly out of business. If not this season, at some point in the near future. It''s very poorly run, farcial even. The players they''ve got are probably on obscene wages that the club just can''t afford, they can''t sell them and it''s just a downward spiral. Once Pompey go I think the bubble will burst and more will follow.It''s a grim realisation that football will have to come to terms with.

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Oh, and thank you for your post Blurboy. Interesting to see the view on this on the otherside of the Atlantic.

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Well done Panic for your thought process and writing ability. A trait I would like to see with a lot more young people today.

Yellow Rider

While I agree with your overall assessment of the situation being unhealthy I do think it''s worthwhile mentioning another factor regarding foreign players in the Premier League. I believe there are far more than a few foreigners of high skill playing in the league. Your point was that far too many of them are overpaid and not world class. To my way of thinking if a player can command a very high salary outside of his own country ( particularly playing for a premiership team ) then he qualifies to be regarded as world class. Of course, the players you have cited are standouts along with quite a few others. The underlying reason they are brought in is simply because there is not enough English talent to meet the current requirements of most Premiership teams aspiring to do well not only in England but also in Europe. We do have some good English players but just not enough at the top level. Let me give you an example. Gareth Barry is generally highly regarded in England. I have watched him carefully for some time and, quite frankly, I believe he is fairly limited at the top level. While he has some good skills undoubtedly, it''s also true that he is slow and is only effective with his left foot and will do anything to avoid using his right. He often gets caught out for these reasons. If Manchester City are serious about what they wish to achieve I have no doubt that Barry will find himself struggling to maintain a spot in the team over the coming year. Also, while that level of player is regarded in the future as being amongst the best for the national squad England will have a difficult time ever lifting the World Cup again. 

Blurboy 1980

As you live in Tampa Bay I naturally have to accept your greater knowledge of the situation with the Buccaneers. However, your view of how the NFL salary cap works, while accurate up to a point, does not go far enough to explain what is really occurring with salary caps. The growth in those caps over the past several years far exceed any reasonable inflation levels by 2-3 times. With respect to the ceiling or the floor the most powerful teams, from a financial standpoint, still can play games in attracting talent by paying large sign-on bonuses and amortizing this over a number of years of the contract, then using the average to reflect they are operating within the salary caps. Teams that either financially struggle to compete with such approaches are always at a disadvantage. Having attended a number of Buccaneer games over the years I have to say, regardless of the stadium capacity, it has always appeared to me that there are large volumes of seats unfilled. Possibly there are many season ticket holders not showing up but, regardless, it is a sign that it is tough for a club like that to compete financial with teams like the Giants or the Patriots and the liek.

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[quote user="Panic"]My honest opinion is that Portsmouth will be the first Premier League club to go completly out of business. If not this season, at some point in the near future. It''s very poorly run, farcial even. The players they''ve got are probably on obscene wages that the club just can''t afford, they can''t sell them and it''s just a downward spiral. Once Pompey go I think the bubble will burst and more will follow.

It''s a grim realisation that football will have to come to terms with.
[/quote]

Redknapp has pretty much buggered up every club he has been with.... and nearly ruined Bournemouth all that time back....

So beware Tottenham..... beware.

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[quote user="Yellow Rider"][quote user="Panic"]

As the UK continues to scrape itself through ''The Recession'', it was announced last week that Man Utd had now racked up debts of £700 Million. That''s right folks, the “Most Successful Club in the World” (sic) are now financially, and to use the correct term, screwed. Somehow selling the world''s most expensive player has done more worse for them than good, as the actual point of the football club (playing football, in case you didn''t know) has been hindered as a result of Ronaldo''s departure.

There really must be something wrong with football here when Manchester United, a club who''s name is simply synonymous with success (whether you like it or not), has got itself into a terrible state of affairs where they are generating more column inches in the Financial Times than 4-4-2 Magazine......

I am only 18. As such I have only ever experienced the ''Premier League era''. I have never stood on a terrace and I can''t remember any other team winning the top league apart from Arsenal, Man Utd or Chelsea. When I started to properly watch football, roughly when Norwich got to the Play Off Final, the record English transfer fee was £ 29 000 000, so that''s effectively more than doubled in 9 years. This era of affluence has now crashed down on many clubs (look at the ITV Digital saga, which still rumbles on to this day), so I ask you; can football get out of this?

[/quote]

Panic,

Don''t apologise for being 18!! Your post is extremely sensible and puts many, far more experienced posters on this board to shame.....

Problem is many posters on this board want a new ''wealthy owner'', never mind who, never mind the motives just grab the money. And what do these fans want it spent on? Not on paying off debt that''s for sure but to lavish ever more crazy amounts on transfer fees and wages. Well, recent (and current) events may be just proving to everyone that football in this country needs to wake up big style and ''reclaim the game''. It''s rubbish to say that ........''there''s nothing fans can do'' etc. Do you really think that if 75,000 people boycotted Old Trafford that the Glazers would hang around for long?  Of course  not, they would sell up and get the hell out of the UK.

Football fans have a choice - either stand up, as one, and end this madness or just do nothing, pay up and shut up like we do now!

[/quote]Quite agree Yellow R. We all want success - and you either need to buy in quality players to make it to the top or get lucky with some of the cheaper acquisitions along the way, as well as hanging on to a good manager. The likes of Holt, Martin and Johnson didn''t cost a packet and even if they cannot take us past the championship, I''m happy to see the exciting football with which they provide us most matches. But an overhanging debt burden ties the hands of management more than having no money. Trouble is, when the Prem clubs spend crazy money that they don''t have, it affects our wage levels too.

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And it looks like the only winners if the Man Utd bond issue goes ahead are wait for it .... The Glazers.Analysis of the £500m bond prospectus distributed to investors reveals that in

addition to annual interest payments of more than £300m the Glazers can take

a guaranteed £160 million in dividends, one-off payments and fees out of the

club.

The terms of the bond also allow the family to take additional annual

eight-figure dividends based on a complex formula relating to the ratio of

income to interest. Applied to last year’s figures, which saw net income of

£41.6m, the Glazers could have claimed a dividend of almost £21m.

The device allows the Glazers to take a dividend equal to 50 per cent of net

cash profits, as long as gross profits are more than double the interest

paid figure. If, as the Glazers forecast in the prospectus, income continues

to grow at Old Trafford, over the seven-year life of the bond the total

dividend could reach more than £140m.

 LINK  (Telegraph)

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[quote user="Buckethead"]And it looks like the only winners if the Man Utd bond issue goes ahead are wait for it .... The Glazers.Analysis of the £500m bond prospectus distributed to investors reveals that in

addition to annual interest payments of more than £300m the Glazers can take

a guaranteed £160 million in dividends, one-off payments and fees out of the

club.

The terms of the bond also allow the family to take additional annual

eight-figure dividends based on a complex formula relating to the ratio of

income to interest. Applied to last year’s figures, which saw net income of

£41.6m, the Glazers could have claimed a dividend of almost £21m.

The device allows the Glazers to take a dividend equal to 50 per cent of net

cash profits, as long as gross profits are more than double the interest

paid figure. If, as the Glazers forecast in the prospectus, income continues

to grow at Old Trafford, over the seven-year life of the bond the total

dividend could reach more than £140m.

 LINK  (Telegraph)[/quote]Lets face it though, they never bought the club because they were lifelong fans.

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