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N.Ireland Canary

Money Ruining The Game

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After reading recent reports about how much money is owed from one club to another, Should the football governing bodies have interferred along time ago to ensure it does not happen.

A good example is the recent interview with Gold and Sullivan saying that of £100m+ debt that they are in £40m is owed to other clubs. Now I know that when transfers are completed they would have an installment plan set up to pay said fees, but should this be allowed to happen?

Should there be some sort of rule stating that if the money is not in the bank then the transfer cannot happen.

I knoe the FA are starting to put transfer embargos on certain clubs, but is this enough.

Not sure if what I am saying is clear enough? but I would appreciate other peoples thoughts on this.

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Dear Sol taking Portsmouth to court for 1.7mil in owed wages and bonuses. He was there 3 years so he MUSt have been taking a fat wad.(No comment on that DDD please)

They will be the first of several Prem clubs going BANG over the next year.

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I can see what you are saying, and to most respects I agree.But, you pay peanuts and you get monkeys. Look back at the pre Sky days and how crap the standard was, and how awful most grounds were. Sky money has turned football into a polished, globally marketable product.I definitely think that a lot of clubs are starting to realise that they have been spending beyond their means, and all the money seems to be available in the Spanish and Italian leagues again, it seems to go in cycles.Some people could argue that it was better back in the good old days, but thats their choice, some peoples views can get tainted by nostalgia.

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[quote user="morty"]I can see what you are saying, and to most respects I agree.

But, you pay peanuts and you get monkeys. Look back at the pre Sky days and how crap the standard was, and how awful most grounds were. Sky money has turned football into a polished, globally marketable product.

I definitely think that a lot of clubs are starting to realise that they have been spending beyond their means, and all the money seems to be available in the Spanish and Italian leagues again, it seems to go in cycles.

Some people could argue that it was better back in the good old days, but thats their choice, some peoples views can get tainted by nostalgia.
[/quote]

Agreed Morty BUT for the Players benefit.

As Gold said yesterday Tickets and TV money Just pay the wages.

Can''t last.

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I guess you could liken it to buying a car (starts to sound like Swiss Tony)You buy a crap car that you can afford and have an acceptable driving experience, or you say "nuts" to it, get a big fat loan and buy a fanny magnet.

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Hindsight is a wonderful thing! Even if 20 years people could forsee the state of the game in this country now there''s not a lot they can do about it. You cannot ban a club from trading and buying players because they have debts, that is like saying you cannot buy anything because you have a mortgage, this is because the debts are secure (so we are led to believe anyways) and therefore as long as the income continues the clubs are relatively stable. The trouble with Portsmouth is that the income has dried up somewhat and they''ve spent more than they could afford and suffered from mismanagement. This happens in a free market, companies go bust others prosper. Football is in reality no different.

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[quote user="The Butler"]

[quote user="morty"]I can see what you are saying, and to most respects I agree.But, you pay peanuts and you get monkeys. Look back at the pre Sky days and how crap the standard was, and how awful most grounds were. Sky money has turned football into a polished, globally marketable product.I definitely think that a lot of clubs are starting to realise that they have been spending beyond their means, and all the money seems to be available in the Spanish and Italian leagues again, it seems to go in cycles.Some people could argue that it was better back in the good old days, but thats their choice, some peoples views can get tainted by nostalgia.[/quote]

Agreed Morty BUT for the Players benefit.

As Gold said yesterday Tickets and TV money Just pay the wages.

Can''t last.

[/quote]Oh definitely, its all about to implode, starting with Portsmouth!

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What im curious to know is how the English Premier League compares to other big European leagues in terms of clubs debt. I know the likes of Real Madrid and Villareal have a huge debt, but in generall are English clubs future existence in more danger than say Italian and Spanish clubs?

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[quote user="Wembley_Canary"]What im curious to know is how the English Premier League compares to other big European leagues in terms of clubs debt. I know the likes of Real Madrid and Villareal have a huge debt, but in generall are English clubs future existence in more danger than say Italian and Spanish clubs?[/quote]

A qucik search about the finances of the Bundisliga and Serie A revealed the overall debt in those leagues ran into hundreds of millions of euros but nowhere near the £1billion Premiership clubs owe. However one interesting point is that at the end of every season every German club has to re-apply for a licence which is only granted after the German FA scrutinise the finances of every club to ensure there is no threat of insolvency, perhaps this could be gradually implemented here.

Full article on the German model here:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1074354/Solvent-Bundesliga-clubs-example-debt-ridden-Premier-League-counterparts.html

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Is it new though? Look at what happened to our good friends in Leeds a few years ago. Wasn''t that similar financial mismanagement (i.e. gambling) to what Portsmouth have done?

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[quote user="First Wazzock"]Even the mighty Man Ure are in the doodoo !!![/quote]

I think the difference with Man Yoo is that although they were one of the most profitable clubs in the world and debt free prior to the Galzier family takeover, somehow the Glaziers borrowed loads of money to finance the deal and then transfered that debt to the club. I think Man Yoo are a completely different case to the Portsmouth and Leeds cases...

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The game was ruined as soon as the Premier League was formed, that and Sky putting millions into the game which wasn''t there before.

This has been coming a long time, the sooner it all goes bang and comes back into the real world the better.

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It certainly can lead to a mountain or pyramid of debt, and if a club is demoted and suffers reduced gate receipts it could be in trouble, even if it has credits with other clubs greater than its deficits.It is intolerable that buying clubs are able to extract free credit by paying in instalments. Often the buying club is from a higher division, with benefits of TV money, etc. How much do they collectively owe to lower division clubs?I know that there is the argument that we must compete in Europe, etc., so they/we need to be able to buy with credit, but if the result is to put clubs in lower divisions into difficulty then I am not happy.Could the FA or League go it alone, and insist on payment of reasonable interest until the debt is paid? Or would it put us all at a disadvantage?The consequence of controlling debt could be to put downward pressure on transfer fees and/or on wages, and the big clubs could find it hard to sign very good players from abroad, but this could be a spur to the development of locally born players, and perhaps allow lower division teams to hang on to their best players.This, I believe could benefit our national team, even if some of our premiership big teams do not make so much progress in Europe.

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It''s ruined the game itself..... and the kind of people who attend games now are more "spectators" than anything else.....

Any grassroot club such as Rochdale may have their problems.... but they are still firmly part of the community and that is where football should be. Success for them is an "ambition" and not a prerequisite for supporting them.

 

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It''s not so much the transfer fees that are the problem, more the wages of the players that you have to pay once you''ve signed them. Unfortunately some of the richest men in the world own clubs in the Premier league now, who would bet against a Man City - Chelsea - Arsenal top 3 in a couple of seasons time and for the foreseeable future, with Arsenal being the only club in the top 3 on merit ?

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[quote user="The Walking Man walking to Yeovil"]Hindsight is a wonderful thing! Even if 20 years people could forsee the state of the game in this country now there''s not a lot they can do about it. You cannot ban a club from trading and buying players because they have debts, that is like saying you cannot buy anything because you have a mortgage, this is because the debts are secure (so we are led to believe anyways) and therefore as long as the income continues the clubs are relatively stable. The trouble with Portsmouth is that the income has dried up somewhat and they''ve spent more than they could afford and suffered from mismanagement. This happens in a free market, companies go bust others prosper. Football is in reality no different.[/quote]

 

 

But in football, the club re-appears as if nothing has happened and spends money that should have gone to it''s creditors ie. Southampton, who are now the big spenders of league 1. Does this happen in other forms of business? Is this what will happen to Pompey? If so, the lessons will never be learnt.

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[quote user="Salopian"]Often the buying club is from a higher division, with benefits of TV money, etc. How much do they collectively owe to lower division clubs?

[/quote]

Much of the Premiership transfer money isn''t spent with lower league clubs but with foreign clubs thus the transfer money leaves the country instead of being recycled lower down the divisions by the selling club in the British football market. The players wages and agents fees all contribute to the amount of money being permanently taken out of the British game. Buy a player from a foreign club for £10m and pay him £5m pa for three years and the true cost to British football is £25m for one player. Chelski, Manure  have dozens and dozens of such players between them bleeding the British football economy dry . BTW anybody else feel the Premier League may be acting unlawfully with respect to Portsmouth by witholding the tv money and paying it directly to foreign clubs when HMRC have a lawful claim against Portsmouth in Court? That payment should have been made to Pompey and been part of any claim by HMRC. What the PL have done is not only tantamount to tax evasion but possibly condemns pompey to a winding up order. Talk about looking after no1, the PL have hung Pompey out to dry with that one?

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[quote user="First Wazzock"]Even the mighty Man Ure are in the doodoo !!![/quote]

Id say so...There accounts have just been published on the BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8470595.stm

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[quote user="Buckethead"][quote user="Salopian"]Often the buying club is from a higher division, with benefits of TV money, etc. How much do they collectively owe to lower division clubs?

[/quote]

Much of the Premiership transfer money isn''t spent with lower league clubs but with foreign clubs thus the transfer money leaves the country instead of being recycled lower down the divisions by the selling club in the British football market. The players wages and agents fees all contribute to the amount of money being permanently taken out of the British game. Buy a player from a foreign club for £10m and pay him £5m pa for three years and the true cost to British football is £25m for one player. Chelski, Manure  have dozens and dozens of such players between them bleeding the British football economy dry . BTW anybody else feel the Premier League may be acting unlawfully with respect to Portsmouth by witholding the tv money and paying it directly to foreign clubs when HMRC have a lawful claim against Portsmouth in Court? That payment should have been made to Pompey and been part of any claim by HMRC. What the PL have done is not only tantamount to tax evasion but possibly condemns pompey to a winding up order. Talk about looking after no1, the PL have hung Pompey out to dry with that one?

[/quote]

I''m not really a financial expert, but surely if Pompey were entitled to the money they should have received it and then distributed it to creditors as they saw fit. If a club was still owed money and felt aggrieved, surely they could have just taken Pompey to court?

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[quote user="The Butler"]

Dear Sol taking Portsmouth to court for 1.7mil in owed wages and bonuses. He was there 3 years so he MUSt have been taking a fat wad.(No comment on that DDD please)

They will be the first of several Prem clubs going BANG over the next year.

[/quote]

Sol Campbell is yet another example of greedy bloody footballers bleeding the game dry. I wonder why the miserable sod can never force a smile? He certainly never has to worry about where the money for the next gas bill is coming from.

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I don''t think anyone can deny we have a better product since sky and the premier league came along. But has it been worth it? For entertainment value, from the sofa, no question. But from a whole host of clubs point of view, the premier league is unquestionably a poisoned challice.

It''s not money in itself that is responisble, it''s wages and the market forces that the premier league opened the game up to whereby clubs will pay ever greater sums to secure players. And not always the best players. If they''d have gone with a wage cap right at the start, all of this could have been avoided. But that''s hindsight, and i don''t think many could forsee the need to cap wages.

People say ''how can a premier league club go bust when there''s so much money around''? The answer is because most of all that money that it generates just finds its way in to the pockets of the players, and that is to the premier league''s enternal shame. They may have a great product, but it has been to the cost of all the clubs that have been horrendously burnt by their flirtings with the premier league.

When you look at this:
http://www.newsoftheworld.co.uk/sport/548583/CLUB-BY-CLUB-DEBT-GUIDE-News-of-the-World-Premier-League-money.html ...you realise that most of the clubs in the prem are just ticking financial timebombs. And when they are relegated, you pull the pin.

It all makes me wonder if i want us to get there at all. Suppose getting there gets you X amount of money. What happens then, and what has happened, is that clubs around you who get the same X amount, spend X + Y borrowings to try and stay up, thus putting you in debt. You can just about sustain this debt if you stay up. Suppose you do stay up. Next season, you have to do it all over again, only this time you probably borrow more because that croatian superstar you bought has turned out to be a flop and he''s been sold on at a massive loss and you''ve had to buy someone else. Then you get a bunch of injuries and you have to get more players in on loan. If you don''t, you risk being relegated. So debts grow more. Then you are relegated anyway after ''second season'' syndrome, and there you have it. Massive massive debts to be sustained on a revenue base that has just dropped by half, and will drop by another 20% next season and again the season after. Unless you get promoted, in which case you can try that all over again and inflate your debts yet further!!

In my view, the best the likes of us and fans of many other clubs like ours can hope for, is to do a Bolton or a Reading or a Charlton where you get a manager who can keep you up and competitive by building a team that is greater than the sum of its parts. Bolton, Reading and Charlton did that with Allardyce, Coppell and Curbishley respectively, for as long or far longer, than you could realistically hope for. Maybe Pulis is doing it with Stoke. But just look at Bolton in that list. When they come down, they''ll be totally screwed. There but for the grace of god go us!

 

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[quote user="a1canary"]

In my view, the best the likes of us and fans of many other clubs like ours can hope for, is to do a Bolton or a Reading or a Charlton where you get a manager who can keep you up and competitive by building a team that is greater than the sum of its parts. Bolton, Reading and Charlton did that with Allardyce, Coppell and Curbishley respectively, for as long or far longer, than you could realistically hope for. Maybe Pulis is doing it with Stoke. But just look at Bolton in that list. When they come down, they''ll be totally screwed. There but for the grace of god go us!

 

[/quote]

I used to think Bolton were the best example of how to get into the Premier League and establish yourself before pushing on, but like Leeds and Pompey they appear to have tried to push for glory and run before the could walk, and now like Leeds and Pompey look like falling flat on their faces.

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As the Davids were saying yesterday. One Premier league''s clubs debts are worth more than the club and will go out into administration before the end of the season and maybe out of excistence.

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[quote user="Klobo7"][quote user="a1canary"]

In my view, the best the likes of us and fans of many other clubs like ours can hope for, is to do a Bolton or a Reading or a Charlton where you get a manager who can keep you up and competitive by building a team that is greater than the sum of its parts. Bolton, Reading and Charlton did that with Allardyce, Coppell and Curbishley respectively, for as long or far longer, than you could realistically hope for. Maybe Pulis is doing it with Stoke. But just look at Bolton in that list. When they come down, they''ll be totally screwed. There but for the grace of god go us!

 

[/quote] I used to think Bolton were the best example of how to get into the Premier League and establish yourself before pushing on, but like Leeds and Pompey they appear to have tried to push for glory and run before the could walk, and now like Leeds and Pompey look like falling flat on their faces.[/quote]

 

Let''s hope so. I despise Gartside and everything he stands for.

 

 

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The crazy thing about that link a1 is that the 2 clubs that appear to be the most threatened, Portsmouth and Hull, have about the least amount of debt.  Everything else is just run by debt leveragers or billionaires as a toy.

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Can somebody who has a bit more financial expertise explain how some clubs in that link can have negative amounts of assets? And the relation between that and their debts

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[quote user="Buckethead"]BTW anybody else feel the Premier League may be acting unlawfully with respect to Portsmouth by witholding the tv money and paying it directly to foreign clubs when HMRC have a lawful claim against Portsmouth in Court? That payment should have been made to Pompey and been part of any claim by HMRC. What the PL have done is not only tantamount to tax evasion but possibly condemns pompey to a winding up order. Talk about looking after no1, the PL have hung Pompey out to dry with that one?[/quote]Not really, the money only belonged to Portsmouth IF Portsmouth were eligable to recieve it under the terms of the contract which includes not being behind on payments to other clubs.  This action is set out under the rules for recieving the TV money.  Enforcing the rules for once is a good thing surely.  I believe most of the money is owed to Chelsea, Watford and Tottenham anyway rather than "foreign clubs".Pompey have been hung out to dry by their own actions and thinking that they could get away wiothout paying their taxes.  I have no sympathy for them.

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