Hoolahan

[TheFineCity 0]

[quote

user="bjg123"] They have a much better chance of being in the prem

than us in, say, three years time, that''s undeniable, better squad,

more money, in the league above and can go up this year. Burnley are

probably less likely than boro to be in the prem in 3 years. [/quote]

[quote

user="bjg123"]You can''t use the fact they might get

relegated as an argument though, it''s nonsensical, everything other

than attendance makes them bigger, finance, league position recent

history, record transfer fee, current squad etc... From the

perspective of a player, they''re a bigger club. If Boro came in for

one of our targets he''d choose them over us, guaranteed.[/quote]

Talk

about a contradiction. You can''t use the fact that they maybe

relegated as an argument but you can use the fact that they could be

in the premiership in 3 years time? Which is it?

[Jim Smith 2,317]

[quote user="Bob Franklin"]

[quote user="bjg123"]You can''t use the fact they might get relegated as an argument though, it''s nonsensical, everything other than attendance makes them bigger, finance, league position recent history, record transfer fee, current squad etc... From the perspective of a player, they''re a bigger club. If Boro came in for one of our targets he''d choose them over us, guaranteed.[/quote]

 

Similar population to Norwich but without the county fan base. Sunderland and Newcastle near by too. I must admit that I have always thought Middlesborough to be a "bigger" club than Norwich but I''m not so sure now. One thing is for certain though and that is that they have been more successful than us over the years and their current 2nd division status is a low point in their history. Strange decision of Strachan''s to go to ''boro. Bad choice IMO.

 

If only Norwich had built a stadium with a 32,000 capacity. I always think that clubs whose attendances break through the 30K barrier are clubs of genuine stature.

[/quote]

 

More successful than us over the years and the championsip a "low point in their history." Maybe if like certain commentators you only regard the history of football as having started with the premierleague in the mid 90s. Think you will find for a substantial chunk of the 80''s and 90''s Middlesbrough were a lower division side.

[bjg123 0]

It isn''t a contradiction, I can talk about their likelihood of promotion is relation to ours, and I can talk about their likelihood of relegation compared to ours.

They are in a good position in the league above us, ergo it is reasonable to assume they have a better chance of being in the prem than us (they have a chance this season whereas we don''t at all as well) We are in league 1, therefore our chances of being there in the medium-term are higher than Boros, so it''s pointless to discuss possible relegation, geddit?

[TheFineCity 0]

[quote user="bjg123"]It isn''t a contradiction, I can talk about their likelihood of promotion is relation to ours, and I can talk about their likelihood of relegation compared to ours.

They are in a good position in the league above us, ergo it is reasonable to assume they have a better chance of being in the prem than us (they have a chance this season whereas we don''t at all as well) We are in league 1, therefore our chances of being there in the medium-term are higher than Boros, so it''s pointless to discuss possible relegation, geddit?[/quote]Err yes it is. You can''t say that an argument about Boro being relegated is nonsensical and then suggest that they could be promoted in 3 years. It''s a complete contradiction and with your last sentence you seem to be getting yourself even more confused. If you can talk about Boro''s possibility of being promoted in 3 years and the unlikeliness of there relegation we can use the same parameters for Norwich to suggest there is every chance based on our current league position and their''s we will be playing them in the championship next season, ergo Wes moving wouldn''t be a step forward for him in the short to medium term, geddit?

[bjg123 0]

IF we are both in the same league next season, Boro would still be the club more likely to be promoted, anyone other than a Norwich fan could tell you that.

Both promotion and relegation are hypothetical, but Boro being in League 1 when we''re not is a lot less likely than the other way round, so there''s no point discussing it, whereas who is more likely to be in the Prem is a relevant discussion.

[Guest]

[quote user="bjg123"]IF we are both in the same league next season, Boro would still be the club more likely to be promoted, anyone other than a Norwich fan could tell you that.

Both promotion and relegation are hypothetical, but Boro being in League 1 when we''re not is a lot less likely than the other way round, so there''s no point discussing it, whereas who is more likely to be in the Prem is a relevant discussion.[/quote]You say that, but what if Boro get into financial difficulties and have to sell off key squad members? I would say that unless you have a crystal ball you have no idea what will happen if we get promoted, and Boro stay where they are, next season.

[Bogbrush 0]

[quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="Bob Franklin"]

[quote user="bjg123"]You can''t use the fact they might get relegated as an argument though, it''s nonsensical, everything other than attendance makes them bigger, finance, league position recent history, record transfer fee, current squad etc... From the perspective of a player, they''re a bigger club. If Boro came in for one of our targets he''d choose them over us, guaranteed.[/quote]

 

Similar population to Norwich but without the county fan base. Sunderland and Newcastle near by too. I must admit that I have always thought Middlesborough to be a "bigger" club than Norwich but I''m not so sure now. One thing is for certain though and that is that they have been more successful than us over the years and their current 2nd division status is a low point in their history. Strange decision of Strachan''s to go to ''boro. Bad choice IMO.

 

If only Norwich had built a stadium with a 32,000 capacity. I always think that clubs whose attendances break through the 30K barrier are clubs of genuine stature.

[/quote]

 

More successful than us over the years and the championsip a "low point in their history." Maybe if like certain commentators you only regard the history of football as having started with the premierleague in the mid 90s. Think you will find for a substantial chunk of the 80''s and 90''s Middlesbrough were a lower division side.

[/quote]

I''m not interested in defending the assertion that Middlesborough is a bigger or more successful club than Norwich and I didn''t get the impression from Bob F''s post that he is either, but a couple of points are relevant :-

1. Middlesborough was founded in 1876 and is a founding member of the Football League

2. Throughout their 130+ year history, they have only spent two seasons outside the top two divisions

3. I guess that Middlesborough have spent more seaons in the top flight of English football over, say, the last 50 years than Norwich. Perhaps you can supply the exact figures Jim.

[AJ 1,218]

If Hoolahan is allowed to go, I can see Lambert walking in similar circumstances to a certain Martin O''Niel.If we want to get promoted, we need to keep Hoolahan, simple as.

[Michael Starr 519]

Le Tissier was linked to big clubs for years. He stayed put at Southampton. Loyalty can happen under the right circumstances, and as someone said... why goto Boro and be a squad player forced out on the left when he can be a hero in the diamond here. Yes the money may be better elsewhere but does he need it? I''d rather be paid less and enjoy my work, but I guess that''s just me. I personally wouldn''t want him to leave, but I guess we have to respect the players choice either way. The fact he''s been linked tells that he deserves it. Classy player.

[TheFineCity 0]

[quote user="bjg123"]IF we are both in the same league next season, Boro would still be the club more likely to be promoted, anyone other than a Norwich fan could tell you that.

Both promotion and relegation are hypothetical, but Boro being in League 1 when we''re not is a lot less likely than the other way round, so there''s no point discussing it, whereas who is more likely to be in the Prem is a relevant discussion.[/quote]Going on previous evidence if a club doesn''t get promoted out of the championship in there first season then it becomes increasingly difficult for them to achieve promotion. We are a case in point, so are Southampton and so are Charlton as has been previously mentioned. Boro by the looks of it, even by strengthening their squad aren''t going up this season and are going to find it increasingly difficult to gain promotion. If you want to use evidence that they have a good chance of promotion then there is a mountain of counter evidence that suggests otherwise. At the minute I see no reason for Wes to move and if we get promotion at the end of this season I will see no reason for him to move, especially with Lambert in charge. Come January next season things may be different and the respective positions and situations at both clubs may have changed and Wes may see his future away from us at Boro or many other clubs, that is for discussion then however.

[bjg123 0]

[quote user="I.S."][quote user="bjg123"]IF we are both in the same league next season, Boro would still be the club more likely to be promoted, anyone other than a Norwich fan could tell you that.

Both promotion and relegation are hypothetical, but Boro being in League 1 when we''re not is a lot less likely than the other way round, so there''s no point discussing it, whereas who is more likely to be in the Prem is a relevant discussion.[/quote]You say that, but what if Boro get into financial difficulties and have to sell off key squad members? I would say that unless you have a crystal ball you have no idea what will happen if we get promoted, and Boro stay where they are, next season.[/quote]

Yeah, they could be a division 3 club in 23 million quid''s worth of debt and not have a chairman who''s funded them for 15 years. They are in a better position than us, that''s why they''re a bigger club and more attractive to players

[bjg123 0]

Ok, why when I preview my message do the quotes work, but when I submit, they break? Can someone help me out here, this site is really annoying!

[AJ 1,218]

[quote user="bjg123"][quote user="I.S."][quote user="bjg123"]IF we are both in the same league next season, Boro would still be the club more likely to be promoted, anyone other than a Norwich fan could tell you that.

Both promotion and relegation are hypothetical, but Boro being in League 1 when we''re not is a lot less likely than the other way round, so there''s no point discussing it, whereas who is more likely to be in the Prem is a relevant discussion.[/quote]You say that, but what if Boro get into financial difficulties and have to sell off key squad members? I would say that unless you have a crystal ball you have no idea what will happen if we get promoted, and Boro stay where they are, next season.[/quote]

Yeah, they could be a division 3 club in 23 million quid''s worth of debt and not have a chairman who''s funded them for 15 years. They are in a better position than us, that''s why they''re a bigger club and more attractive to players[/quote]works fine for me.. [:P]

[Guest]

[quote user="bjg123"][quote user="I.S."][quote user="bjg123"]IF we are both in the same league next season, Boro would still be the club more likely to be promoted, anyone other than a Norwich fan could tell you that.

Both promotion and relegation are hypothetical, but Boro being in League 1 when we''re not is a lot less likely than the other way round, so there''s no point discussing it, whereas who is more likely to be in the Prem is a relevant discussion.[/quote]You say that, but what if Boro get into financial difficulties and have to sell off key squad members? I would say that unless you have a crystal ball you have no idea what will happen if we get promoted, and Boro stay where they are, next season.[/quote]

Yeah, they could be a division 3 club in 23 million quid''s worth of debt and not have a chairman who''s funded them for 15 years. They are in a better position than us, that''s why they''re a bigger club and more attractive to players[/quote]Wasn''t it announced that Middlesbrough were £80 odd million in the hole last season? And didn''t Delia stick another 2.1 million into the club this season? Am I completely misreading your point?

[TheFineCity 0]

[quote user="I.S."][quote user="bjg123"][quote user="I.S."][quote user="bjg123"]IF we are both in the same league next season, Boro would still be the club more likely to be promoted, anyone other than a Norwich fan could tell you that.

Both promotion and relegation are hypothetical, but Boro being in League 1 when we''re not is a lot less likely than the other way round, so there''s no point discussing it, whereas who is more likely to be in the Prem is a relevant discussion.[/quote]You say that, but what if Boro get into financial difficulties and have to sell off key squad members? I would say that unless you have a crystal ball you have no idea what will happen if we get promoted, and Boro stay where they are, next season.[/quote]

Yeah, they could be a division 3 club in 23 million quid''s worth of debt and not have a chairman who''s funded them for 15 years. They are in a better position than us, that''s why they''re a bigger club and more attractive to players[/quote]Wasn''t it announced that Middlesbrough were £80 odd million in the hole last season? And didn''t Delia stick another 2.1 million into the club this season? Am I completely misreading your point?[/quote]£85 million at the end of last season, plus Gibson himself isn''t worth a huge amount. So yes it''s interesting to know how Middlesbrough are in a better position exactly? Especially if they don''t achieve promotion this season which looks likely.

[Mook 0]

[quote user="RonDavies"]Are Burnley a bigger club than Leeds? Of course not.[/quote]So if Burnley and Leeds both bid £2m for you this January, which team would you choose? Premier league football for at least 5 months, probable survival and, at the worst, playing in the championship next year in a strong team OR playing the third division for 6 months and, at best, playing in the championship next year in an average team?The term "bigger team" is just for fans to score points against one another. But if I was a footballer, Burnely would be a more attractive proposition than Leeds. Once upon a time, Notts County were a bigger team than Chelsea - things change in football.

[dezmondo18 0]

My mate who is a big ncfc fan was chatting with wes,holt, and nelson in a pub last week and wes made it clear that he could of left in the summer but his family and kids love the area and he loves the place too ,he''s going nowhere future canary ledgend cmon wes

[Ghost of Davie Ross 0]

[quote user="Mook"][quote user="RonDavies"]Are Burnley a bigger club than Leeds? Of course not.[/quote]So if Burnley and Leeds both bid £2m for you this January, which team would you choose? Premier league football for at least 5 months, probable survival and, at the worst, playing in the championship next year in a strong team OR playing the third division for 6 months and, at best, playing in the championship next year in an average team?The term "bigger team" is just for fans to score points against one another. But if I was a footballer, Burnely would be a more attractive proposition than Leeds. Once upon a time, Notts County were a bigger team than Chelsea - things change in football.[/quote] I was making the point that the size of a club is not necessarily connected with which division they happen to be in at any given time although I agree that Burnley would be more attractive to play for but only in the short term. But if you had to predict which club would have most success in the next 25 years who would you go for? Leeds will always have more potential than Burnley.

[bjg123 0]

But this thread is talking about a player leaving for another club, and someone pointed out we''re bigger than Boro so why would he leave? Unless players careers span 30 years where the clubs will be in 25 years is neither here nor there. Historically Leeds are bigger than Burnley, at the mo they''re not, just like we''re not the Biggest in East Anglia.

[morty 0]

[quote user="bjg123"]Ok, why when I preview my message do the quotes work, but when I submit, they break? Can someone help me out here, this site is really annoying![/quote]Download firefox.I used IE and google chrome and always had it, downloaded firefox and it stopped.Nice browser too.

[bjg123 0]

I''m using Safari as I''m on a Mac, have firefox as well though so will have to use that for this site. Annoying.

[morty 0]

[quote user="bjg123"]I''m using Safari as I''m on a Mac, have firefox as well though so will have to use that for this site. Annoying.[/quote]Less annoying than all that blockquote milarkey though!

[Snoots 0]

[quote user="bjg123"]But this thread is talking about a player leaving for another club, and someone pointed out we''re bigger than Boro so why would he leave? Unless players careers span 30 years where the clubs will be in 25 years is neither here nor there. Historically Leeds are bigger than Burnley, at the mo they''re not, just like we''re not the Biggest in East Anglia.[/quote]

 

No, can''t agree, it simply means that Burnley is currently more successful than Leeds not that Burnley is bigger.

[morty 0]

[quote user="Bob Franklin"]

[quote user="bjg123"]But this thread is talking about a player leaving for another club, and someone pointed out we''re bigger than Boro so why would he leave? Unless players careers span 30 years where the clubs will be in 25 years is neither here nor there. Historically Leeds are bigger than Burnley, at the mo they''re not, just like we''re not the Biggest in East Anglia.[/quote]

 

No, can''t agree, it simply means that Burnley is currently more successful than Leeds not that Burnley is bigger.

[/quote]You are opening up a can of worms here. What measures a club''s "bigness"?Previous form or current form? Previous league position or current?What actually matters is how much folding green they can put in a footballers back pocket NOW.

[Snoots 0]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="Bob Franklin"]

[quote user="bjg123"]But this thread is talking about a player leaving for another club, and someone pointed out we''re bigger than Boro so why would he leave? Unless players careers span 30 years where the clubs will be in 25 years is neither here nor there. Historically Leeds are bigger than Burnley, at the mo they''re not, just like we''re not the Biggest in East Anglia.[/quote]

 

No, can''t agree, it simply means that Burnley is currently more successful than Leeds not that Burnley is bigger.

[/quote]

You are opening up a can of worms here. What measures a club''s "bigness"?

Previous form or current form? Previous league position or current?

What actually matters is how much folding green they can put in a footballers back pocket NOW.
[/quote]

 

No, I don''t think so. It''s simple : "big" is a measure of size. "successful" is a measure of achievement. Leeds is clearly a bigger club than, say, Wigan, or for that matter, Burnley, but the two smaller clubs are currently more succesful than Leeds.

[Smudger 0]

SELL HIM!!!

Then I will not have to admit to Lappin and Larry David that he has had a good season... because he is still a goal or two shy of 15 for the season! [:P]

[morty 0]

[quote user="Bob Franklin"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Bob Franklin"]

[quote user="bjg123"]But this thread is talking about a player leaving for another club, and someone pointed out we''re bigger than Boro so why would he leave? Unless players careers span 30 years where the clubs will be in 25 years is neither here nor there. Historically Leeds are bigger than Burnley, at the mo they''re not, just like we''re not the Biggest in East Anglia.[/quote]

 

No, can''t agree, it simply means that Burnley is currently more successful than Leeds not that Burnley is bigger.

[/quote]You are opening up a can of worms here. What measures a club''s "bigness"?Previous form or current form? Previous league position or current?What actually matters is how much folding green they can put in a footballers back pocket NOW.[/quote]

 

No, I don''t think so. It''s simple : "big" is a measure of size. "successful" is a measure of achievement. Leeds is clearly a bigger club than, say, Wigan, or for that matter, Burnley, but the two smaller clubs are currently more succesful than Leeds.

[/quote]So, is said "Bigness" made up of a formula of number of average fans and size of ground?I think the point I''m trying to make here is that it is down to individual interpretation, there is no set formula.

[. 0]

We are now more of a "selling club" than ever..... and anything half decent will be snapped up by bigger clubs like Barnsley and Huddersfield.

This is the reality of being a Third Division club and deeply in debt. We have become "little old Norwich" just as Delia wanted.

[morty 0]

[quote user="Cluck the Purist...."]

We are now more of a "selling club" than ever..... and anything half decent will be snapped up by bigger clubs like Barnsley and Huddersfield.

This is the reality of being a Third Division club and deeply in debt. We have become "little old Norwich" just as Delia wanted.

[/quote]I must say, I do tip my hat to you, you are quite good at what you do lol.

[B-ru 0]

Hoop will not go. He is loving his footy here now we ahve a system that works to his strengths.

Hoop knows that he wont be guaranteed a starting place and will probably be shifted out to the wing... which we all know isn''t his position. The only reason he would go is if the board think it worth the money, so it will have to be a BIG offer for him.