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chicken

Administration

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Now, some people may hate me for this but . . . . . .There is a lot of discussion going on about the clubs debts and the possibility of Carrow Road being sold etc. Now I am not an accountant but is there another option?Administration? I only ask because Leeds were much more in debt than we are and Ken Bates managed a nice little trick of getting rid of the debts whilst in administration. Could Delia and Mike and possibly Foulger do something similar.I know we take a ten point hit but there are two ways to look at it - in a couple of games time we may be able to take a ten point hit and still be in 2nd or there abouts. Alternatively wait until the summer or when we are mathmatecally promoted and take a hit for next season. It may sound stupid but we will need to rebuild the team a bit in the Championship anyway and if we could use that season to wipe some of the debts out and get the team going it may do us some good.I realise that some players are getting on and will want a shot at the premiership so maybe that would also be a factor but is it an actual viable option?

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I think that the football league is a lot more streetwise about this situation now, and less likely to let anyone pull a fast one.I think it would be a very dangerous game to try and play.

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What and be docked 10 pts meaning we didn''t go up this season - yeah great!

 

See where your coming from with wiping out debts but half of our debt is like a mortage which we are able to pay of every year.

 

The club saying they are in 23M in debt is like someone who owes £150,000 on their mortage saying they are £150,000 in the red!

 

 

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[quote user="chicken"]Now, some people may hate me for this but . . . . . .There is a lot of discussion going on about the clubs debts and the possibility of Carrow Road being sold etc. Now I am not an accountant but is there another option?Administration? I only ask because Leeds were much more in debt than we are and Ken Bates managed a nice little trick of getting rid of the debts whilst in administration. Could Delia and Mike and possibly Foulger do something similar.I know we take a ten point hit but there are two ways to look at it - in a couple of games time we may be able to take a ten point hit and still be in 2nd or there abouts. Alternatively wait until the summer or when we are mathmatecally promoted and take a hit for next season. It may sound stupid but we will need to rebuild the team a bit in the Championship anyway and if we could use that season to wipe some of the debts out and get the team going it may do us some good.I realise that some players are getting on and will want a shot at the premiership so maybe that would also be a factor but is it an actual viable option?[/quote]Administration should never be used just to clear debts, it should only happen as a very last resort. When Leeds went into admin they were in free fall with no potential to pay off debts and still had to sell their training ground and lease it back. Also, admin doesn''t always work, look at Luton and other clubs with similar experience. Imagine if we also eventually slipped out of the Leagues.The main issue I have with taken admin is the knock on affect it has for local businesses etc who won''t get the money owed to them by the club and also the fact we would certainly lose Holt, Hoolahan and more than likely players like Smith and Martin. Clubs in admin cannot turn down reasonable offers for their players and do you think Lambert would be around for long if that happened?The numbers in the debt sound bad, but a lot of that money is owed to Delia and MWJ and they aren''t going to be kicking down the doors anytime soon.

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if we were able to get a 10 points deduction only not a 30 one and we were guaranteed the playoffs then it could be worth it, because i think we would fancy anyont at home and then draw away so we would still go up,and have a trip to wembley!! [;)]

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if we were able to get a 10 points deduction only not a 30 one and we were guaranteed the playoffs then it could be worth it, because i think we would fancy anyont at home and then draw away so we would still go up,and have a trip to wembley!! [;)]

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Have you looked at Norwichs record in semi finals and finals over the years?

 

We''re famous for mucking up in big games - look at the recent Southampton where I think had we won (which we should have!) we''d of probably seen of MK Francisers over 2 legs and probably played Leeds in front of 90,000 at Wembley!

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Administration is far more serious than just a ten point deduction. If only life was as simple and 3 points for a win, 1 for a draw 0 for a defeat and -10 for administration. Oh, and I forghot minus whatever for little colly''s little tantrum[;)]

We seriously don''t want administration. Our club would never nbe the same again.

 

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[quote user="grantroederdisaster"]

What and be docked 10 pts meaning we didn''t go up this season - yeah great!

 

See where your coming from with wiping out debts but half of our debt is like a mortage which we are able to pay of every year.

 

The club saying they are in 23M in debt is like someone who owes £150,000 on their mortage saying they are £150,000 in the red!

 

 

[/quote]

 

Well, they are, in a way. Of course it depends what the house is worth. Carrow Road is shown in the accounts as being valued at £34.5m but in reality they wouldn''t be able to sell it for that. As Bowkett says the only type of deal likely to attract an investor would be a sale and lease-back producing, say, 4% above base per annum on capital. That produces only £22m as a capital sum for our projected £1m rent per annum. An investor at that level would also want some guarantees that his income is secure.

Now, without wishing to resurrect previous arguments, if we had a really wealthy supporter who wanted to help out the club but keep things on a business level this would be a great deal. Hopefully Peter Cullum is still reading this messageboard.......

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Don''t you think that after all that has happened here recently, that if we decided to go into administration to try and clear the debt, and get a 10 point deduction that all this work would be wiped away?  I know if we took a 10 point deduction we could still easily make the play offs but it would be so risky. 

If we did that do you think Lambert, Holt, Hoolahan, Russel would want to stay?  Even if we did it after the January transfer window their hearts wouldn''t be in it and we could end up finishing mid table.  Also if we did it for next season then I doubt we would stay up again because our best players would probably leave and we would have some sort of point deduction.

We definately need to avoid administration because if you clear your debts that way, it is so risky and there is a big chance of us going in to a worse footballing situation than ever before!  Avoid administration for as long as we can and just hope, and have everything crossed, that some rich person comes and buys our club and he can clear our debts by pulling the money out his back pocket.

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[quote user="chicken"]Now, some people may hate me for this but . . . . . .

There is a lot of discussion going on about the clubs debts and the possibility of Carrow Road being sold etc. Now I am not an accountant but is there another option?

Administration? I only ask because Leeds were much more in debt than we are and Ken Bates managed a nice little trick of getting rid of the debts whilst in administration. Could Delia and Mike and possibly Foulger do something similar.

I know we take a ten point hit but there are two ways to look at it - in a couple of games time we may be able to take a ten point hit and still be in 2nd or there abouts. Alternatively wait until the summer or when we are mathmatecally promoted and take a hit for next season. It may sound stupid but we will need to rebuild the team a bit in the Championship anyway and if we could use that season to wipe some of the debts out and get the team going it may do us some good.

I realise that some players are getting on and will want a shot at the premiership so maybe that would also be a factor but is it an actual viable option?
[/quote]

Don''t you just hate pretentious individuals who feel using first name terms gives them some form of gravitas?

Deary deary me.........

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[quote user="Cluck the Purist...."]

[quote user="chicken"]Now, some people may hate me for this but . . . . . .There is a lot of discussion going on about the clubs debts and the possibility of Carrow Road being sold etc. Now I am not an accountant but is there another option?Administration? I only ask because Leeds were much more in debt than we are and Ken Bates managed a nice little trick of getting rid of the debts whilst in administration. Could Delia and Mike and possibly Foulger do something similar.I know we take a ten point hit but there are two ways to look at it - in a couple of games time we may be able to take a ten point hit and still be in 2nd or there abouts. Alternatively wait until the summer or when we are mathmatecally promoted and take a hit for next season. It may sound stupid but we will need to rebuild the team a bit in the Championship anyway and if we could use that season to wipe some of the debts out and get the team going it may do us some good.I realise that some players are getting on and will want a shot at the premiership so maybe that would also be a factor but is it an actual viable option?[/quote]

Don''t you just hate pretentious individuals who feel using first name terms gives them some form of gravitas?

Deary deary me.........

[/quote]Lol, you really are a shameless troll.

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[quote user="morty"][quote user="Cluck the Purist...."]

[quote user="chicken"]Now, some people may hate me for this but . . . . . .

There is a lot of discussion going on about the clubs debts and the possibility of Carrow Road being sold etc. Now I am not an accountant but is there another option?

Administration? I only ask because Leeds were much more in debt than we are and Ken Bates managed a nice little trick of getting rid of the debts whilst in administration. Could Delia and Mike and possibly Foulger do something similar.

I know we take a ten point hit but there are two ways to look at it - in a couple of games time we may be able to take a ten point hit and still be in 2nd or there abouts. Alternatively wait until the summer or when we are mathmatecally promoted and take a hit for next season. It may sound stupid but we will need to rebuild the team a bit in the Championship anyway and if we could use that season to wipe some of the debts out and get the team going it may do us some good.

I realise that some players are getting on and will want a shot at the premiership so maybe that would also be a factor but is it an actual viable option?
[/quote]

Don''t you just hate pretentious individuals who feel using first name terms gives them some form of gravitas?

Deary deary me.........

[/quote]

Lol, you really are a shameless troll.
[/quote]

What have I said now?  

Blimey... It comes to something when person can''t even make a simple observation without being castigated for it........

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[quote user="Cluck the Purist...."][quote user="morty"][quote user="Cluck the Purist...."]

[quote user="chicken"]Now, some people may hate me for this but . . . . . .There is a lot of discussion going on about the clubs debts and the possibility of Carrow Road being sold etc. Now I am not an accountant but is there another option?Administration? I only ask because Leeds were much more in debt than we are and Ken Bates managed a nice little trick of getting rid of the debts whilst in administration. Could Delia and Mike and possibly Foulger do something similar.I know we take a ten point hit but there are two ways to look at it - in a couple of games time we may be able to take a ten point hit and still be in 2nd or there abouts. Alternatively wait until the summer or when we are mathmatecally promoted and take a hit for next season. It may sound stupid but we will need to rebuild the team a bit in the Championship anyway and if we could use that season to wipe some of the debts out and get the team going it may do us some good.I realise that some players are getting on and will want a shot at the premiership so maybe that would also be a factor but is it an actual viable option?[/quote]

Don''t you just hate pretentious individuals who feel using first name terms gives them some form of gravitas?

Deary deary me.........

[/quote]Lol, you really are a shameless troll.[/quote]

What have I said now?  

Blimey... It comes to something when person can''t even make a simple observation without being castigated for it........

[/quote][:)]

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Selling the ground will come before administration, it''s just a question of when.People have to realise that promotion this season will not be a panacea to the Club’s financial problems and this will only come from either Premiership football or new owners with a large capital injection.

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No, our best bet is to achieve promotion, and also enjoy a cup run in both the league and FA cup. Also, we need investment though obviously thats not a garante, so for me promomtion is the only achievable way of increasing income in the short term without selling on players. I dont know if anyone else knows but Norfolk county council gave the club £200,000 at the the start of the season to be used throughout the club as they understand how much the club does for the community and how much the community would suffer if the club was to go out of buisness. Its funny, people go on and on about our ''dire'' situation, especially after the release of the accounts however we have had two poor seasons in a row, with no real cup runs in either offering extra income... it really should not be that much of a shock. Also I think there is a significant drop in the ammount of TV money between the championship and league one, with it increasing in the championship money arriving just after our departure! Also despite the £23 million figure being more debt than quite a few of our rivals or championship counterparts we are still in a far better position due to a strong relationship with our lenders for the time being.Administration should not be seen as the easy way out, as I for one dont want to see our club gutted and picked apart by the vultures. Promotion is a must, as is a successfull season in the championship to make ourselves seem an attractive club to investors.

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I don''t know much about administration - if I wanted to know more I''d ask a Stockport fan - I doubt they''d be as gung-ho about it as the original poster.

What I do know is this: it is a minimum ten point deduction but also once in administration it is the administrator that runs the club - for the benefit of the creditors. So if Burnley come waving a big compo cheque for Lambo''s services the administrator will bite their hands off. And he''ll bite Leeds''s hands off when they want Holty to replace Beckford etc etc.

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Administration would be horrendous for the club, the city and the county of Norfolk. Not only would we lose our saleable assets (Carrow Rd, Colney etc plus the players such as Hoolahan, Holt, Martin etc) we would cripple the business'' that we owe money too. Just look at the hammering we give the binners for going into administration! Also there''s no gurantee we would get out of it all that easily, as mentioned previously look at Stockport...

For me we should avoid going into administration at all cost, because it''s a pride thing for me, yes we do have debts as do the vast majority of football clubs but we have to believe that they are manageable debts. Think of the countless lives that would be affected by administration especially at a time when jobs are already hard to come by.

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[quote user="Cluck the Purist...."]

[quote user="chicken"]Now, some people may hate me for this but . . . . . .There is a lot of discussion going on about the clubs debts and the possibility of Carrow Road being sold etc. Now I am not an accountant but is there another option?Administration? I only ask because Leeds were much more in debt than we are and Ken Bates managed a nice little trick of getting rid of the debts whilst in administration. Could Delia and Mike and possibly Foulger do something similar.I know we take a ten point hit but there are two ways to look at it - in a couple of games time we may be able to take a ten point hit and still be in 2nd or there abouts. Alternatively wait until the summer or when we are mathmatecally promoted and take a hit for next season. It may sound stupid but we will need to rebuild the team a bit in the Championship anyway and if we could use that season to wipe some of the debts out and get the team going it may do us some good.I realise that some players are getting on and will want a shot at the premiership so maybe that would also be a factor but is it an actual viable option?[/quote]

Don''t you just hate pretentious individuals who feel using first name terms gives them some form of gravitas?

Deary deary me.........

[/quote]Don''t you just hate:- trolls- people who slag off Delia and blame her for the clubs missfortune although she is only half of the joint majority shareholding partnership- people who make sweeping unfounded statments and then try to attack other people''s posts with insultsBut from now on I shall make sure that I post Mrs. Smith and Mr. Wyn-Jones - just like you do in all of your posts.

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[quote user="6th May 1939"]I don''t know much about administration - if I wanted to know more I''d ask a Stockport fan - I doubt they''d be as gung-ho about it as the original poster.

What I do know is this: it is a minimum ten point deduction but also once in administration it is the administrator that runs the club - for the benefit of the creditors. So if Burnley come waving a big compo cheque for Lambo''s services the administrator will bite their hands off. And he''ll bite Leeds''s hands off when they want Holty to replace Beckford etc etc.[/quote]Didn''t mean it to sound gung-ho. Just wanted to put it out there as a question.Personaly I would hate to see the ground sold because it means it is no longer under our control. Its just not a great sign or thing to be talking about in my books. I can understand them selling the naming rights so we are called the Viva stadium or something but not to sell it out right.Some clubs seem to have used administration to their advantage others not. I just wondered if it was a viable choice or simply a last chance saloon choice.Obviously I would rather see neither. I would rather see us promoted and then reach say the play offs and get some of that cash from the prem if possible. But this time I would also like them to actually do what they said they would and use a lot of the money to clear our debts.

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I have been well informed by a source very close to the club that if the club are well within the play offs, but not looking like getting automatic promotion, we will have to go into administration. We can''t afford not to seems to be the line coming from him as the financials of the club truly are terrible.

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And I have been equally well informed by someone not even remotely interested in the club, nor having any contact with anyone who works there, that what you just said isn''t true.

We''ll see. I personally doubt it.

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[quote user="MoCamara"]I have been well informed by a source very close to the club that if the club are well within the play offs, but not looking like getting automatic promotion, we will have to go into administration. We can''t afford not to seems to be the line coming from him as the financials of the club truly are terrible.[/quote]

I''m trying to remain polite today, but it''s getting extremely difficult to remain so in light of some the many crass posts being made on this subject.Any additional revenue from getting promoted will be eaten up by the additional costs of operating in a higher league, so the Club’s annual operating loss will be unaffected by any potential promotion to the Championship.Regardless of what Division we''re in, Capital will have to be injected by Summer to avoid administration, and the Board will sell the ground to provide said Capital rather than go into administration. So please get use to the notion that we will no longer own Carrow Road.

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[quote user="morty"]Lol, not the old "unnamed source" routine.People don''t half talk some sh*t lol.[/quote]Yup pretty much, I dont think a week goes by without a thread dooming us to administration appearing after someone gets a tip of from a ''source''!

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[quote user="MoCamara"]I have been well informed by a source very close to the club that if the club are well within the play offs, but not looking like getting automatic promotion, we will have to go into administration. We can''t afford not to seems to be the line coming from him as the financials of the club truly are terrible.[/quote]

Then your informer is himself mis-informed. It''s really very simple: Assets of £35m. Liabilities of £23m. If they go for administration the owners effectively lose the balance sheet value of £12m. Why would they do that? The figures are not great but they are also not disastrous. The only way we would go into administration is if cashflow becomes a problem - they have already said we have bank support to the end of the season but we have a £2.9m cash shortfall for next year. That means that unless we get investment we will have to realise some of our assets - we either sell players or the land we own or the ground.

However, I don''t see promotion solving this problem - the cash rewards for promotion are not very big and extra TV money in the Champs will not bridge that cashflow gap. Plus wages will go up.

I know it is unpalatable but selling the ground and leasing it back is the obvious solution and I have no doubt that is what a sensible business would do - especially if we can build in a "buy back" option at a guaranteed return, so that if we do manage to get to the Prem and stay there, we can get it back again. Not owning the ground is not really a problem as long as the lease is held by a "friendly" - the problem would come if the lease is moved on to a "not so friendly". But this is the way the vast majority of businesses operate - most don''t own their premises; do have bank overdraft facilities etc. The difference is that we would then HAVE to make an annual profit, and that may well impact on the way the football team itself is managed.

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[quote user="sgncfc"]

I know it is unpalatable but selling the ground and leasing it back is the obvious solution and I have no doubt that is what a sensible business would do - especially if we can build in a "buy back" option at a guaranteed return, so that if we do manage to get to the Prem and stay there, we can get it back again. Not owning the ground is not really a problem as long as the lease is held by a "friendly" - the problem would come if the lease is moved on to a "not so friendly". But this is the way the vast majority of businesses operate - most don''t own their premises; do have bank overdraft facilities etc. The difference is that we would then HAVE to make an annual profit, and that may well impact on the way the football team itself is managed.

[/quote]

But football isn''t an ordinary business whose aim is the maximisation of profit.  A football club aims to maximise success on the field of play and break even.  If it can make a profit as well, it''s all to the good provided it is reinvested in maximising success.

Selling the ground and leasing it back isn''t a sensible way of clearing our debts as it simply replaces debt repayments with spiralling leasing costs.  Buying it back, if that were ever possible (which I doubt) could only be done at the expense of investment in footballing success, and before we knew it we''d be back to square one. 

We''re between a rock and a hard place.  Administration is a horrible alternative, but if it''s a choice between short term acute pain (administration) and a long term dull ache (selling the ground) I know which I''d choose.  Timing is important of course, as is promotion (or not) to the Championship, but according to Mr Bowkett no decision needs to be made yet as the lenders are willing to hold off until the end of the season. 

And there''s a Factor X associated with admin: if there''s a potential investor out there, they will be well aware of our current financial plight - so why would they buy the club now instead of waiting to see how things pan out?  They could get the club for a song if administration was on the cards, and be able to invest more in the football side. 

And don''t worry about the poor shareholders.  I don''t see why we should bail out the very people who have presided over this mess at the expense of losing Carrow Road.  That, in my opinion, is what the proposal to sell the ground is really designed to do. 

 

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I am not simply ''making up'' a source, I am merely sharing information to you, as I thought you would be interested. I don''t know what will happen, and the future is not concrete. Why would I make it up?

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