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Rudolph Hucker

A Levy Scheme to Fight the Debt.

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NCFC needs to deal with its debt issue and most of us I assume, do not like the thought of asset sales.

The club needs to attract the next generation of fans and support families. If you look at a the London Premier League crowds in particular you see predominantly white late 20''s to middle aged men. We would have a much reduced attendance if that was the case with us and we are, in essence a community club.

Season tickets will need to rise and we all want to see better players; and better facilities in many areas.

The corporate areas are far too costly for the majority and don''t reflect our expectations of a match experience.

So, for many fans like myself, there is no simple way to invest in the club. If you buy shares you do so with a large outlay and you never do so expecting it to be anything other than a gift with a few rights nailed on.

The N&P scheme is popular and when a sum is raised always gets a cheer as does the academy support.

Now, I don''t like seeing my money being used to pay off failures or provide ordinary footballers with lavish lifestyles but I would like to see it used to reduce the debt. In return I would like to see some form of points system which translate to something tangible.

I would like to see some additional matchday levy I could contribute to or debt reduction pay points where the odd fiver I chipped in gave me say 5 points on my season ticket and this accumilation of points gained accreditation which was held on the details the club holds on us all and was reflected each season on season tickets or memberships with a grading such as ''member'' to ''bronze member;'' silver; gold; platnum and then into some other echelon.

it may seem silly but people on this forum like their post rating and it is something costing the club very little for a cash return.

We could all see a totaliser in matchday programmes to see what the levy was raising and know it was being used specifically for the long term future of our Club.

For those of you who live away there would be a specific levy card so you could contribute and feel part of this debt fight. All these small contributions would add up and the debt fund would be ring fenced.

I know there would need to be a lot of details to work out and better ideas for rewards but we clearly need to do something and this would help people like me to help my club.

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[quote user="RUDOLPH HUCKER"]NCFC needs to deal with its debt issue and most of us I assume, do not like the thought of asset sales. The club needs to attract the next generation of fans and support families. If you look at a the London Premier League crowds in particular you see predominantly white late 20''s to middle aged men. We would have a much reduced attendance if that was the case with us and we are, in essence a community club. Season tickets will need to rise and we all want to see better players; and better facilities in many areas. The corporate areas are far too costly for the majority and don''t reflect our expectations of a match experience. So, for many fans like myself, there is no simple way to invest in the club. If you buy shares you do so with a large outlay and you never do so expecting it to be anything other than a gift with a few rights nailed on. The N&P scheme is popular and when a sum is raised always gets a cheer as does the academy support. Now, I don''t like seeing my money being used to pay off failures or provide ordinary footballers with lavish lifestyles but I would like to see it used to reduce the debt. In return I would like to see some form of points system which translate to something tangible. I would like to see some additional matchday levy I could contribute to or debt reduction pay points where the odd fiver I chipped in gave me say 5 points on my season ticket and this accumilation of points gained accreditation which was held on the details the club holds on us all and was reflected each season on season tickets or memberships with a grading such as ''member'' to ''bronze member;'' silver; gold; platnum and then into some other echelon. it may seem silly but people on this forum like their post rating and it is something costing the club very little for a cash return. We could all see a totaliser in matchday programmes to see what the levy was raising and know it was being used specifically for the long term future of our Club. For those of you who live away there would be a specific levy card so you could contribute and feel part of this debt fight. All these small contributions would add up and the debt fund would be ring fenced. I know there would need to be a lot of details to work out and better ideas for rewards but we clearly need to do something and this would help people like me to help my club.[/quote]

 

Indeed that''s a very interesting idea, wouldn''t cost a fortune, but might, just might help reduce the debts a little.  Not everyone would be able to do it, but it would need a lot to sign up to make a dent.

Have you worked out any figures?

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Don''t mean to pee on your parade Rudolph but, the figure of 23 mill is huge - even if every season ticket holder gave 10 k the 200k wouldn''t even scratch it. So fivers and tenners (which most people could afford) is chicken feed.

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[:@]Why can''t people get into their heads that the club are managing the debt fine and don''t need to sell the stadium, assets, etc.

Just let the club get on with repaying the debt and just forget about it.

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[quote user="First Wazzock"]Don''t mean to pee on your parade Rudolph but, the figure of 23 mill is huge - even if every season ticket holder gave 10 k the 200k wouldn''t even scratch it. So fivers and tenners (which most people could afford) is chicken feed.[/quote]20,000 season ticket holders x £10k = £200,000,000, not £200,000.

Each person would need to put in £1,150 for it to pay off the debt

 

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if every SH gave 10k thats a lot more than 200k lol. If every SH donated on average 20quid of a calander year thats 400k wich i believe is around half of the interest on the loans it would help a great deal.

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How about 10,000 seasopn ticket holders putting in £1,200 each over a 24 month period. It would cost £50 per month and would raise £12m which would reduce the debt to a more acceptable level.

4 conditions

Donations to be converted into shares

The club must not trade at a loss

Anyone donating gets their season ticket at current prices for the next 5 years

The club must not re-empoy Neil Doncaster

I''m prepared to cough up on this basis

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[quote user="dylanisabaddog"]How about 10,000 seasopn ticket holders putting in £1,200 each over a 24 month period. It would cost £50 per month and would raise £12m which would reduce the debt to a more acceptable level.

4 conditions

Donations to be converted into shares

Sorry - Re-employ

Still celebating yesterday''s win

The club must not trade at a loss

Anyone donating gets their season ticket at current prices for the next 5 years

The club must not re-empoy Neil Doncaster

I''m prepared to cough up on this basis[/quote]

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[quote user="dylanisabaddog"][quote user="dylanisabaddog"]How about 10,000 seasopn ticket holders putting in £1,200 each over a 24 month period. It would cost £50 per month and would raise £12m which would reduce the debt to a more acceptable level. 4 conditions Donations to be converted into shares Sorry - Re-employ Still celebating yesterday''s win The club must not trade at a loss Anyone donating gets their season ticket at current prices for the next 5 years The club must not re-empoy Neil Doncaster I''m prepared to cough up on this basis[/quote][/quote]

 

I could go for that.

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If 12 thousand supporters gave an average £3-62p per home game (I put more than that on a bet so would give it to the club instead of Ladbrokes) this would raise one million per season.

Ask how recent our Premier League season ended and total up the seasons since - it''s a nice sum and could have been invested as a trust so is likely to have earned a minimum of 4% on top.

We would need to appoint trustees but if the worst happened there would be money there to save our club.

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[quote user="Holts Big Toe"]

[:@]Why can''t people get into their heads that the club are managing the debt fine and don''t need to sell the stadium, assets, etc.

Just let the club get on with repaying the debt and just forget about it.

[/quote][img]http://randysright.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/head_in_sand.jpg[/img]

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The point of a club security scheme as I have suggested is that it allows people to pay without commitment and in multiple small sums.

How many times do our fans brag about the size of our attendances - it is a source of pride and one they all pay into to maintain the ethos is already there.

Furthermore, when a club goes bust who ultimately suffers - the fans - this is an insurance policy.

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[quote user="Mister Chops"][quote user="Holts Big Toe"]

[:@]Why can''t people get into their heads that the club are managing the debt fine and don''t need to sell the stadium, assets, etc.

Just let the club get on with repaying the debt and just forget about it.

[/quote]

[img]http://randysright.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/head_in_sand.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

 

Given Wiz''s earlier admission I really feel that feeding his fantasies is highly irresponsible.......[;)]

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[quote user="Beauseant"][quote user="Mister Chops"][quote user="Holts Big Toe"]

[:@]Why can''t people get into their heads that the club are managing the debt fine and don''t need to sell the stadium, assets, etc.

Just let the club get on with repaying the debt and just forget about it.

[/quote][img]http://randysright.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/head_in_sand.jpg[/img][/quote]

 

Given Wiz''s earlier admission I really feel that feeding his fantasies is highly irresponsible.......[;)]

[/quote]It''s all good, Beau.  I believe Wiz practices the "Jamie Cureton" method, which means that the bloke''s in no danger, but that sand dune just out of the picture is going to be sore in the morning.

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[quote user="Mister Chops"][quote user="Beauseant"][quote user="Mister Chops"][quote user="Holts Big Toe"]

[:@]Why can''t people get into their heads that the club are managing the debt fine and don''t need to sell the stadium, assets, etc.

Just let the club get on with repaying the debt and just forget about it.

[/quote]

[img]http://randysright.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/head_in_sand.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

 

Given Wiz''s earlier admission I really feel that feeding his fantasies is highly irresponsible.......[;)]

[/quote]

It''s all good, Beau.  I believe Wiz practices the "Jamie Cureton" method, which means that the bloke''s in no danger, but that sand dune just out of the picture is going to be sore in the morning.
[/quote]

PMSL![Y]

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The biggest problem that I see with any scheme such as this is that if this scheme were to raise say £2m in a year, it is pretty much impossible to control what happens to that money. You may as well just slip the cheque in Delia''s back pocket as a donation like that could simply lead to a Board member deciding not to stump up another £2m that year as, with this donation, the finances are doing fine thank you very much, for another season at least. So whilst the scheme may have donated £2m, and on the face of it you see where the money is spent, what you do not see is a director''s £2m slipping quietly out the back door, if you get my meaning. That means no progress. I''m afraid that the only long term solution that I see is new owners who are vastly richer than Delia and Co.

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[quote user="dhickl"]

[quote user="First Wazzock"]Don''t mean to pee on your parade Rudolph but, the figure of 23 mill is huge - even if every season ticket holder gave 10 k the 200k wouldn''t even scratch it. So fivers and tenners (which most people could afford) is chicken feed.[/quote]20,000 season ticket holders x £10k = £200,000,000, not £200,000.

Each person would need to put in £1,150 for it to pay off the debt

 

[/quote]

Sorry I have a Merlot addled brain. [:D]

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Cap''n Canary you make a good point, however, the fund would not be released just like that. It would need trustees and as it was intended as a final solution the spending of it would need approval by the trustees based on consultation.

I would like to know what Yankee and Cambs think.

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---The idea of fans raising £12m is, I''m afraid, fanciful.[:(] And in any

event such an amount could not be converted into voting shares because

that would result in a change of ownership.[:@]However. In Baldrick

"cunning plan" mode[;)], I know what I would do IF I was a member of the

Norwich City Supporters'' Trust. Which, dear me, I''m not.[:''(]I

would, very cynically[:P], launch a "Save Carrow Road" appeal and ask that

the club increase the share capital to, say, 585,000 shares. Making

about 50,000 new shares available. But not affecting ownership.[8-|]Then

I would raise money from fans, vaguely as per the earlier suggestions,

to buy as many of those shares as possible (It would need £1.5m to buy

them all). Those fans not already shareholders would keep a nominal

number of shares. The other shares (the vast majority) would be gifted

to the trust, which - on that basis - would be given the right by the

club to nominate a supporter-director.An additional wrinkle

would - of course - be that the existing directors would,

Foulger-style, put in a similar sum of money. The potential

not-quite-so-fanciful total would be £3m. And the delicious irony[:D] being

that the directors would be paying good money for something (a

supporter-director) that they probably wanted like a trepanned hole in

the head.[:D]

But in PR terms the directors would find it very hard[:S] to argue against

such a proposal, posited as the only way of avoiding the disastrous (in

the long term)[:@] idea of selling the ground.[:D]I should say I''m

unconvinced[:^)] by the idea of a supporter-director (unless such a person

had a veto on "heritage" issues). And I am not bothered about Carrow

Road in itself[:|] but only in the long-term issue of ownership. But that

is not the point here. It is a means to an end. And way too clever for

me.[8-|] Thank goodness I''m not a member of the supporters'' trust.[<:o)]

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Clearly there is potential for fans to raise significant funds to assist with cashflow and debt repayment issues, but what do we get in return?

Any further issue of shares could be connected to succession planning for the owners. I would like like to see options such as a move to co-operative type ownership explored with possibly County & District Council involvement as well as fans investment. I know that both bank debt and directors loans fall due for repayment if there is a change in ownership, but everything is negotiable. The last thing any lender wants is a debt write off situation.

If the Co-op idea proves to be a non starter, I would like to see some link between capital introduced by fans, further funds invested by Directors/Owners & investment in football operations.

The points scheme could be a good way of attracting funds, it certainly seems to work for retailers.

On the issue of selling the ground and leasing this back, I am against this, selling the family silver never did make much sense if there are other ways forward.

At the risk of going off topic, I am much happier now that we have McNally as Chief Exec & Alan Bowkett as Chairman, and lets not forget the latter is a fan. It is refreshing to see ambition being shown and the appointment of Paul Lambert appears to be a masterstroke.

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Rudolph - wanted to respond to this yesterday but couldn''t.

I think this is really interesting and you should try and take if further. The big issue with schemes like this, whether it''s for a football club or donations to charities or those ridiculous adopt a polar bear schemes, is as Captn Canary says. You get nothing back in return. How do you know it''s not just disappearing into the black hole?

So the idea of coming up with some kind of scheme to link the donator to his or her donation and to give them something back could be really encourage people. It certainly would me. Like with the adopt an animal schemes, the idea (eventhough it''s totally bogus), is that you supposedly have a connection to the specific animal. It''s trying to do the same thing. Maybe we could have ''adopt a canary!''

I also completely agree with you about the debt - it''s a massive millstone. Ok so every club in the land is carrying something similar, but it would be to our benefit to reduce it and to our cost to ignore it as i saw some idiot suggesting.

So yes, i think you should take it up with DM!

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Pete, with their connections to the Board why don''t Archant through their media run a debate on schemes to address the debt. It is the biggest issue we face.

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I suspect we are in the cusp of a dirty tricks campaign; last week it was Lambert leaving. I wonder who is behind it?

That said, this debt situation threatens the very future of our Club and ANY investment into a football club is effectively a gift.

If 10000 of us gifted £100- now that is a million for debt relief and a basis for a long term debt fund with regular moderate contributions on matchdays. I would like to think 10000 could give £10 and there are probably other exiled fans who could help raise the initial fund to 1.25m.

On top of that there would be larger investers and corporate investors. Why is 2.5 million not quickly acheivable?

Our fans have the mentality to do it..fight the debt and let the playing side do their thing and the club carry on as usual.

This would be a far sighted effort if we are in no immediate danger and we have partners such as N & P who could administer it.

Please everyone, please Achant, fight the millstone of debt. No one takes OUR Club or OUR ground.

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[quote user="RUDOLPH HUCKER"]Pete, with their connections to the Board why don''t Archant through their media run a debate on schemes to address the debt. It is the biggest issue we face.[/quote]

And if the NOTW story isn''t true perhaps the club should come out and say so and also take legal action against them,that should get us a few million

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