Is the convicited killer playing against us tomorrow?

[pete_norw 0]

[quote user="Shack Attack"][quote user="pete_norw"]

 An HGV driver did the same he would never get his licence back, are you saying that Lorry drivers don''t deserve a second chance but footballers do.

[/quote]

Sorry but that''s a ridiculous comparison as Lee Hughes'' career doesn''t rely on his driving but the HGV driver''s does.
[/quote]

So what you saying then?, A  lorry driver who never killed anyone, don,t deserve a second chance but a footballer who did kill someone should be given a second chance, the mind boggles.

[king canary 7,578]

[quote user="pete_norw"][quote user="Shack Attack"][quote user="pete_norw"]

 An HGV driver did the same he would never get his licence back, are you saying that Lorry drivers don''t deserve a second chance but footballers do.

[/quote]Sorry but that''s a ridiculous comparison as Lee Hughes'' career doesn''t rely on his driving but the HGV driver''s does.[/quote]

So what you saying then?, A  lorry driver who never killed anyone, don,t deserve a second chance but a footballer who did kill someone should be given a second chance, the mind boggles.

[/quote]No what he is saying is that the lorry drivers crime related directly to his job.

[pete_norw 0]

[quote user="king canary"][quote user="pete_norw"][quote user="Shack Attack"][quote user="pete_norw"]

 An HGV driver did the same he would never get his licence back, are you saying that Lorry drivers don''t deserve a second chance but footballers do.

[/quote]

Sorry but that''s a ridiculous comparison as Lee Hughes'' career doesn''t rely on his driving but the HGV driver''s does.
[/quote]

So what you saying then?, A  lorry driver who never killed anyone, don,t deserve a second chance but a footballer who did kill someone should be given a second chance, the mind boggles.

[/quote]
No what he is saying is that the lorry drivers crime related directly to his job.
[/quote]

My point is the lorry driver was going to his bed not to drive, fair enough the booze is in the blood streem for around 10 hours or longer, that  driver was not about to drive antill mid day on the following day, I know that because I was with him and booked into the same wearhouse, which was 100 yards away from the pub in Trafford park Manchester the pub was the Village inn, a popular place for lorry overnight parking, I don''t think or mean he shouldn''t have been banned, but as someone pointed out this Footballer had paid the price did time and deserves another chance, So why not anyone else, forget the lorry driver bit why not  you or I   

[Joanna Grey 0]

[quote user="pete_norw"][quote user="king canary"][quote user="pete_norw"][quote user="Shack Attack"][quote user="pete_norw"]

 An HGV driver did the same he would never get his licence back, are you saying that Lorry drivers don''t deserve a second chance but footballers do.

[/quote]

Sorry but that''s a ridiculous comparison as Lee Hughes'' career doesn''t rely on his driving but the HGV driver''s does.
[/quote]

So what you saying then?, A  lorry driver who never killed anyone, don,t deserve a second chance but a footballer who did kill someone should be given a second chance, the mind boggles.

[/quote]
No what he is saying is that the lorry drivers crime related directly to his job.
[/quote]

My point is the lorry driver was going to his bed not to drive, fair enough the booze is in the blood streem for around 10 hours or longer, that  driver was not about to drive antill mid day on the following day, I know that because I was with him and booked into the same wearhouse, which was 100 yards away from the pub in Trafford park Manchester the pub was the Village inn, a popular place for lorry overnight parking, I don''t think or mean he shouldn''t have been banned, but as someone pointed out this Footballer had paid the price did time and deserves another chance, So why not anyone else, forget the lorry driver bit why not  you or I   

[/quote]

So the police hang around a well-known overnight lorry park, next to a pub just waiting for the drivers to go to bed? They must make a lot of arrests, you would think they would wait for them to start their engines before nicking them.

[pete_norw 0]

[quote user="Mustachio Furioso"][quote user="pete_norw"][quote user="king canary"][quote user="pete_norw"][quote user="Shack Attack"][quote user="pete_norw"]

 An HGV driver did the same he would never get his licence back, are you saying that Lorry drivers don''t deserve a second chance but footballers do.

[/quote]

Sorry but that''s a ridiculous comparison as Lee Hughes'' career doesn''t rely on his driving but the HGV driver''s does.
[/quote]

So what you saying then?, A  lorry driver who never killed anyone, don,t deserve a second chance but a footballer who did kill someone should be given a second chance, the mind boggles.

[/quote]
No what he is saying is that the lorry drivers crime related directly to his job.
[/quote]

Yes mate you se it all the time, I only ever had a pint at  weekends,  

My point is the lorry driver was going to his bed not to drive, fair enough the booze is in the blood streem for around 10 hours or longer, that  driver was not about to drive antill mid day on the following day, I know that because I was with him and booked into the same wearhouse, which was 100 yards away from the pub in Trafford park Manchester the pub was the Village inn, a popular place for lorry overnight parking, I don''t think or mean he shouldn''t have been banned, but as someone pointed out this Footballer had paid the price did time and deserves another chance, So why not anyone else, forget the lorry driver bit why not  you or I   

[/quote]

So the police hang around a well-known overnight lorry park, next to a pub just waiting for the drivers to go to bed? They must make a lot of arrests, you would think they would wait for them to start their engines before nicking them.

[/quote]

[pete_norw 0]

[quote user="pete_norw"][quote user="Mustachio Furioso"][quote user="pete_norw"][quote user="king canary"][quote user="pete_norw"][quote user="Shack Attack"][quote user="pete_norw"]

 An HGV driver did the same he would never get his licence back, are you saying that Lorry drivers don''t deserve a second chance but footballers do.

[/quote]

Sorry but that''s a ridiculous comparison as Lee Hughes'' career doesn''t rely on his driving but the HGV driver''s does.
[/quote]

So what you saying then?, A  lorry driver who never killed anyone, don,t deserve a second chance but a footballer who did kill someone should be given a second chance, the mind boggles.

[/quote]
No what he is saying is that the lorry drivers crime related directly to his job.
[/quote]

Yes mate you se it all the time, I only ever had a pint at  weekends,  

My point is the lorry driver was going to his bed not to drive, fair enough the booze is in the blood streem for around 10 hours or longer, that  driver was not about to drive antill mid day on the following day, I know that because I was with him and booked into the same wearhouse, which was 100 yards away from the pub in Trafford park Manchester the pub was the Village inn, a popular place for lorry overnight parking, I don''t think or mean he shouldn''t have been banned, but as someone pointed out this Footballer had paid the price did time and deserves another chance, So why not anyone else, forget the lorry driver bit why not  you or I   

[/quote]

So the police hang around a well-known overnight lorry park, next to a pub just waiting for the drivers to go to bed? They must make a lot of arrests, you would think they would wait for them to start their engines before nicking them.

[/quote][/quote]

 

Don''t know how that happened there, but yes coppers sit round Lorry parks for easy pickings, thats why Inever drank at work

[Canwebe Heroes 0]

I bet you wished you didn''t ask FW

[William Darby 0]

[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

I can see a place for the death sentence but it should always be a sentence of last resort

Like others my issue is ensuring that executions only take place where there can be no doubt about guilt;  if there is 1% of doubt a life sentence should apply.

But I also wonder what cases should carry it.  Man-slaughter? No - not for me.  For me there is a world of difference between going out and carrying out a planned murder and failing to take care at the wheel of a care or watch a student on a canoeing trip.  All three result in an horrendous and unfortunate death.     

Even for murder there are shades of grey.  The person who acts completely out of character and flips because of a series of events.  It is still a death - murder or man slaughter - but should a single error cost you your life too?   It does not help the victim.  It may give a morbid but v short term sense of justice to the victims family but that does not mean it is the right thing to do.

I can see a space for the death sentence - but I also believe in people having a second chance.  So for me it is forgiveness (and I am not a religious man) but apply the death sentence to solid cases of guilt to those who would persist to be a threat to the population at large (which brings its own shades of grey in establishing I know).

As such 99.999% of deaths from car ACCIDENTS would not be punishable by death.

Not a popular or populist view - just very much my own. 

[/quote]Hang on there, if there''s any doubt, they shouldn''t be found guilty. 

[Shack Attack 0]

[quote user="pete_norw"][quote user="Shack Attack"][quote user="pete_norw"]

 An HGV driver did the same he would never get his licence back, are you saying that Lorry drivers don''t deserve a second chance but footballers do.

[/quote]Sorry but that''s a ridiculous comparison as Lee Hughes'' career doesn''t rely on his driving but the HGV driver''s does.[/quote]

So what you saying then?, A  lorry driver who never killed anyone, don,t deserve a second chance but a footballer who did kill someone should be given a second chance, the mind boggles.

[/quote]It''s pretty obvious what I''m saying Pete. The HGV driver relies on his driving ability to make a living and any firm would presumably take a dim view of his dangerous driving. Lee Hughes career depends on him being able to kick a bag full of air into a goal. His previous driving record has no impact on his ability to do this.

[First Jedi 0]

"Like others my issue is ensuring that executions only take place where there can be no doubt about guilt; if there is 1% of doubt a life sentence should apply."

One of the most scary sentences I''ve ever read on these boards...

[CambridgeCanary 0]

But people are repeatedly wrongly found guilty for all sorts of reasons.  The number of high profile miscarriages of justice are the tip of the iceberg and many reversals of convictions do not make even the local press.  

[ron obvious 1,499]

[quote user="CambridgeCanary"]

But people are repeatedly wrongly found guilty for all sorts of reasons.  The number of high profile miscarriages of justice are the tip of the iceberg and many reversals of convictions do not make even the local press.  

[/quote]True. It does not follow, however, that murderers do not exist, or that these murderers have been successfully brought to trial.What it does mean is that the criteria for capital punishment would have to change. The evidence would have to be completely overwhelming, for one thing.When sadistic murderers laugh in the faces of their distraught relatives we are relying on the self-control of said relatives to not enact their own retribution. If the justice system appears to be on the side of the criminal then you are inviting anarchy.

[still holding out for new heroes 0]

ron - firstly if there''s any doubt someone should be found innocent in English law.

Lets take your argument to an example. Myra Hindley clearly guilty of the most heinous crimes - what was the better punishment - a long drop from a short rope, or 30 plus year to rot in gaol with false hope of release followed by ultimately a painful death in prison. Many convicted murderers, West, Shipman choose to end their life because it is the easy way out compared to a life of freedom being removed and the knowledge they will never be able to carry their sick crimes again.

I''d go for long years of punishment rather than a quick release for them everytime.

[ron obvious 1,499]

[quote user="still holding out for new heroes"]ron - firstly if there''s any doubt someone should be found innocent in English law.

Lets take your argument to an example. Myra Hindley clearly guilty of the most heinous crimes - what was the better punishment - a long drop from a short rope, or 30 plus year to rot in gaol with false hope of release followed by ultimately a painful death in prison. Many convicted murderers, West, Shipman choose to end their life because it is the easy way out compared to a life of freedom being removed and the knowledge they will never be able to carry their sick crimes again.

I''d go for long years of punishment rather than a quick release for them everytime.[/quote]Yes, they should be found innocent. But it occurs to me that, when sentencing becomes so lenient it''s a joke - or an apparent joke, as I do not believe that being banged up, even in an open prison, is something any of us would enjoy - then there may be the tendency to relax the criteria for truth.I''m afraid I''d go with capital punishment for Hindley (& Ian Brady, who people always seem to ignore); apart from anything else, it costs large sums of money to maintain her, which could be better spent elsewhere.And I wouldn''t use hanging. I think apoxia is the most humane method.

[Green and Yellow 0]

[quote user="still holding out for new heroes"]ron - firstly if there''s any doubt someone should be found innocent in English law. Lets take your argument to an example. Myra Hindley clearly guilty of the most heinous crimes - what was the better punishment - a long drop from a short rope, or 30 plus year to rot in gaol with false hope of release followed by ultimately a painful death in prison. Many convicted murderers, West, Shipman choose to end their life because it is the easy way out compared to a life of freedom being removed and the knowledge they will never be able to carry their sick crimes again. I''d go for long years of punishment rather than a quick release for them everytime.[/quote]

That is the issue most life sentences mean out after 13-15 years on licence. If some people don''t have the stomach  for capital  punishment then we should have super prisons were life means life and you only leave in a wooden box.

[William Darby 0]

[quote user=" Baldrick"]

[quote user="still holding out for new heroes"]ron - firstly if there''s any doubt someone should be found innocent in English law. Lets take your argument to an example. Myra Hindley clearly guilty of the most heinous crimes - what was the better punishment - a long drop from a short rope, or 30 plus year to rot in gaol with false hope of release followed by ultimately a painful death in prison. Many convicted murderers, West, Shipman choose to end their life because it is the easy way out compared to a life of freedom being removed and the knowledge they will never be able to carry their sick crimes again. I''d go for long years of punishment rather than a quick release for them everytime.[/quote]

That is the issue most life sentences mean out after 13-15 years on licence. If some people don''t have the stomach  for capital  punishment then we should have super prisons were life means life and you only leave in a wooden box.

[/quote]What''s that supposed to mean?  If you are against CP it makes you a sissy?

[Green and Yellow 0]

What''s that supposed to mean?  If you are against CP it makes you a sissy?

 

No, YOU said that but do you support the offender of the victim?.

[William Darby 0]

So what do you mean by stomach then?

[Green and Yellow 0]

Would you feel comfortable with the state executing someone on your behalf in the name of the state?.

[Camuldonum 0]

The problem perhaps really lies in believing whether "the state" and their forces always get it right.  It is a call too far for me.

By coincidence we are doing a feature for a magazine on a man who spent 27 years in prison for a murder he did not commit - totally blown out by subsequent DNA and forensic material which, in fairness, was not available at the time.  But if Britain had been a capital country at the time he would have hanged for it.

It all boils down, perhaps, to how much confidence you have in "the state" and how many mistakes you believe acceptable.

 

[William Darby 0]

[quote user=" Baldrick"]

Would you feel comfortable with the state executing someone on your behalf in the name of the state?.

[/quote]Killing somebody is just wrong imo.  It''s not a punishment it''s just too easy.  All it ends up being is an act of revenge for the victim''s family, which probably in the long run leaves an empty feeling.  If it was me, I''d rather have the knowledge of the criminal doing a very long time, with very little privileges.

[William Darby 0]

[quote user="Camuldonum"]

The problem perhaps really lies in believing whether "the state" and their forces always get it right.  It is a call too far for me.

By coincidence we are doing a feature for a magazine on a man who spent 27 years in prison for a murder he did not commit - totally blown out by subsequent DNA and forensic material which, in fairness, was not available at the time.  But if Britain had been a capital country at the time he would have hanged for it.

It all boils down, perhaps, to how much confidence you have in "the state" and how many mistakes you believe acceptable.

 

[/quote]That''s two separate issues Cam. 1 is how confident are you with the legal system and  2 do you agree with killing another human for the sake of punishment.  But I do understand the case of the man, having said that.  His innocence might not''ve come out if he was hanged.

[Camuldonum 0]

Personally I don''t think I could kill anyone - either on behalf of me or on behalf of the "state."

People will vary on that but my overall lack of confidence in the "capital" system is of the authorities getting it right.  You can let a bloke out of prison after 27 years and say you got it wrong but not if you hanged him.

Cynical old journalist who has absolutely no trust in the "authorities" at all.  They have not given me reason to trust them thus far.

[ncfcstar 287]

[quote user="Camuldonum"]

Cynical old journalist who has absolutely no trust in the "authorities" at all.  They have not given me reason to trust them thus far.

[/quote]Probably because you''re a cynical old journalist...[;)]

[Camuldonum 0]

[quote user="ncfcstar"][quote user="Camuldonum"]

Cynical old journalist who has absolutely no trust in the "authorities" at all.  They have not given me reason to trust them thus far.

[/quote]

Probably because you''re a cynical old journalist...[;)]
[/quote]

If you dealt with the "authorities" on a daily basis, I suspect your confidence might have been dented as well. 

Even in lovely downtown Norfolk some lie their heads off if they think the manure is about to hit the fan.

[:|]

[In Dubious Battle 0]

It seems to me that if somebody kills another through drink driving the first point to be noted is that they presumably didn''t do it on purpose, secondly that they should be punished for their crime. How severe is open do debate, but once they have served their sentence and if they have shown genuine remorse as I believe Lee Hughes has then they should be left to get on with their lives. He is not a monster he made a terrible mistake, that in fairness could have happened to many of us. I will admit that once I got behind the wheel drunk, it was foolish, i regret it and would never do it again. I am sure I am not the only one on here. The point is if his remorse is genuine then the man should be suffering mentally with the guilt of what he has done and that, if it was me would be worse than any jail sentence or capital punishment ever could be. The death penalty isn''t a punishment it is revenge and simply creates the legitimisation of violence in our society. We live in one of the safest places on the planet and like the rest of Western Europe we also have an extremely moderate justice system. It does not necessarily follow that harsher punishments lead to safer societies. Just look at the US. 

[Mutley 0]

At the end of the day, we could debate this topic till the end of time. It is a very subjective issue and is highly dependant on what you think punishment should be. If you think it is A) retribution then capital punishment is probabaly the way forward. If you think it is B) purely punishment, then lock em up and throw away the key. If you think it is rehabilitation then C) lock em up but offer counselling / coaching / teaching / training, so that when they come out / back into the civilised world, they will be a more useful member of society.

And again this is where I have difficulty. If someone has been diagnosed (for example) as suffering with emotionless psychopathy 9after having commited heinous murders), then there is NEVER NEVER a cure. So what is the point in trying to rehabiliatate. It won`t happen, so do we lock em up and throw away the key or do we just exterminate them. If we do the latter do we just shrug our shoulders and state that they were just "dealt a bad hand" by genetic predetermination. The honest answer is I don`t know, but exterminating those with a mental predisposition probabaly says more about us than the criminal / culprit. It surely puts us in the same league as the Nazi`s. All those barking for capital punishment would almost have certainly been the first to do their patriotic duty in the second world war fighting against the Nazi`s. so yet again we have a conflict of interests.

there are definately more questions then answers contained within this argument. Any thoughts??  [^o)][^o)][^o)]

[Shyster 0]

[quote]Killing somebody is just wrong imo.  It''s not a punishment it''s just too easy.  All it ends up being is an act of revenge for the victim''s family, which probably in the long run leaves an empty feeling.  If it was me, I''d rather have the knowledge of the criminal doing a very long time, with very little privileges. [/quote]

Which century or decade are you stuck at? The modern day murderer/pedo and all the evidence that is garnered against them are allowed too many privileges - FACT.It''s the tax-payer who has to carry the burden - the honest tax-payers who yearn to lead crime free lives in a safe society - a once relatively safe society that are forefathers strived for being tore to shreds by the likes of forgiving do-gooders like yourself.All you f*cking  well-dooers effectively do is open doors to sustained criminality.

[In Dubious Battle 0]

[quote user="Shyster"][quote]Killing somebody is just wrong imo.  It''s not a punishment it''s just too easy.  All it ends up being is an act of revenge for the victim''s family, which probably in the long run leaves an empty feeling.  If it was me, I''d rather have the knowledge of the criminal doing a very long time, with very little privileges. [/quote]

Which century or decade are you stuck at? The modern day murderer/pedo and all the evidence that is garnered against them are allowed too many privileges - FACT.It''s the tax-payer who has to carry the burden - the honest tax-payers who yearn to lead crime free lives in a safe society - a once relatively safe society that are forefathers strived for being tore to shreds by the likes of forgiving do-gooders like yourself.All you f*cking  well-dooers effectively do is open doors to sustained criminality.[/quote]The chances of anybody in this country being the victim of a serious crime are minuscule, this is a safe country to live in. Furthermore crime rates have been falling steadily for the last 10 years. You sir are what is known as a reactionary or a Daily Mail reader.  

[yellow hammer 0]

I had a young friend, she was 19-years old. Her father ran away when she was a kid and left the family behind. As we were close I became a second father to her, treating her just the same way as my own daughter, taking her out on the weekends, listening to her hopes and desires for the future, and just being someone she could tell all her worries to.

One day she told her boyfriend that she was going to finish with him because he was a playboy. Always running around with other girls and out late at night with his mates. She on the other hand took her university studies more seriously than he did.

She told me about it - a typical tale of oung love that probably every teenager goes through.

A couple of days after they broke up, the ex-boyfriend came round to her house when he knew she would be home alone and then strangled her to death.

He was caught within hours of his crime, tried and sentanced to prison.

I had lost my young second daughter in an act of senseless stupidity. A pre-meditated act, albeit, a crime of passion, as most murders are.

We were asked by the police about what we thought should happen to the guy. To my mind, the death penalty would have been yet another wasted life. Revenge is a useless emotion, it achieves nothing. The death penalty would not have been a deterrent because in states of high emotion people will still commit murder without thinking of the consequences.

What I really wanted was a long prison sentence for the guy as a punishment for his crime. He got twenty years but was subsequently out in five. Way too short in my eyes. He is twenty-five years old and has a life to look forward to. My little girl is gone and all her dreams and aspirations gone with her.

To wish for the death penalty on the murderer would make me a murderer too and I would have to live with that thought hanging over me for the rest of my life.

It isn''t easy but the death penalty just isn''t the answer.