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First Wizard

Is the convicited killer playing against us tomorrow?

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[quote user="Mutley"]Good point well made King Canary. I`m all for the death penalty (esp nowadays with so much DNA evidence making certain cases bang to rights). However I also belive in the mantra that you shouldn`t expect anyone to do something that you`re not prepared yo do yourself, and this is where my argument falls down. I know for a fact that I couldn`t flick the switch and therefore shouldn`t expect anyone else to do it. Hows that for hypocritical??[/quote]

 

I would have no problem "flicking" the switch.

The fact is, some crimes just deserve death, end of, in my opinion.

child sex abuse, where the victim is killed after ( the child ) deserve nothing other than death.

No argument.

sexual abuse without murder, life, as in the rest of there life, no getting out for "good" behavour.

Cold blooded murder, death.

Man slaughter, life, meaning life.

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Well you stand for your principles Englishman and I will stand for mine (Not that I am disagreeing with your rhettoric, in the slightest), but I wouldn`t want to stand before the almighty on my judgement day trying to argue that my judgement was more important than his!!

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[quote user="the1englishman"]

[quote user="Mutley"]Good point well made King Canary. I`m all for the death penalty (esp nowadays with so much DNA evidence making certain cases bang to rights). However I also belive in the mantra that you shouldn`t expect anyone to do something that you`re not prepared yo do yourself, and this is where my argument falls down. I know for a fact that I couldn`t flick the switch and therefore shouldn`t expect anyone else to do it. Hows that for hypocritical??[/quote]

 

I would have no problem "flicking" the switch.

The fact is, some crimes just deserve death, end of, in my opinion.

child sex abuse, where the victim is killed after ( the child ) deserve nothing other than death.

No argument.

sexual abuse without murder, life, as in the rest of there life, no getting out for "good" behavour.

Cold blooded murder, death.

Man slaughter, life, meaning life.

[/quote]What gives you the right to say they deserve to die?  imo you flicking a switch is cold blooded murder.  Some body could commit murder in a second of madness, like finding their wife having humpty dumpty with the next door neighbour.  I find it rather scary that someone can say ''yeah I could kill somebody because they deserve it''.  They could just as easy turn around and say, ''my wife deserved it''.

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My problems with the death penalty,

1, no justice system is perfect how many cases recently have there been of innocent people suffering a miscarriage of justice

2, not convinced it works as a deterrent - e.g America

3, look at the states who top the list of those that carry out the death penalty - China, Iran, India, Zimbabwe to name a few - it does not equate that the death penalty leads to a better, more lawful society

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[quote user="still holding out for new heroes"]

My problems with the death penalty,

1, no justice system is perfect how many cases recently have there been of innocent people suffering a miscarriage of justice

2, not convinced it works as a deterrent - e.g America

3, look at the states who top the list of those that carry out the death penalty - China, Iran, India, Zimbabwe to name a few - it does not equate that the death penalty leads to a better, more lawful society

[/quote]

It is not for me a case of if it works for the state. It is all about the person responsible for the death facing the ultimate sanction.

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I think that alot of you Liberal Bi-sexuals would change your mind about what to do with these scum if you lost someone close to you!?!?

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[quote user="WrightyBoy"]I think that alot of you Liberal Bi-sexuals would change your mind about what to do with these scum if you lost someone close to you!?!?[/quote]Thankfully that''s why we don''t let the relatives of murder victims decide on what should happen to the killers. I''ve never heard ''Liberal Bisexual'' used as an insult before though so well done.........you fecal brained micro-cocked cum gargler [:D]

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[quote user="WrightyBoy"]I think that alot of you Liberal Bi-sexuals would change your mind about what to do with these scum if you lost someone close to you!?!?[/quote]If your argument is "Anyone against the death penalty is a liberal bisexual", I think you want the Jeremy Kyle forum.

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[quote user="Say Hello To The Angels"]

What he did was wrong, but he has served his sentance and as such should be given a second chance and treated the same as anybody else, otherwise what''s the point in having a criminal justice system? We may as well just bring back hanging! Although worryingly I suspect some of you would actually be in favour of that.

[/quote]

 an HGV driver did the same he would never get his licence back, are you saying that Lorry drivers don''t deserve a second chance but footballers do, A work mate of mine had an extra drink one night  and was stopped,  He was banned from driving for 18months and they refused to renew his licence at the end of the ban, is that what you call justice is it, this man has a family he never killed anyone, infact he never moved his lorry the police stopped him before he put the keys in the door to get in after his night in the pub,   I don''t condone Drink Driving  we have to follow what the law says about it, only the law changes it''s mood on different cases 

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[quote user="pete_norw"][quote user="Say Hello To The Angels"]

What he did was wrong, but he has served his sentance and as such should be given a second chance and treated the same as anybody else, otherwise what''s the point in having a criminal justice system? We may as well just bring back hanging! Although worryingly I suspect some of you would actually be in favour of that.

[/quote]

 an HGV driver did the same he would never get his licence back, are you saying that Lorry drivers don''t deserve a second chance but footballers do, A work mate of mine had an extra drink one night  and was stopped,  He was banned from driving for 18months and they refused to renew his licence at the end of the ban, is that what you call justice is it, this man has a family he never killed anyone, infact he never moved his lorry the police stopped him before he put the keys in the door to get in after his night in the pub,   I don''t condone Drink Driving  we have to follow what the law says about it, only the law changes it''s mood on different cases 

[/quote]

I eagerly await the outcome of Government Minister Harriet Harman''s alleged use of a mobile phone - and subsequent prang with another vehicle, then allegedly leaving the scene of an accident without exchanging insurance details......Because, if it were me or you...well?

The Law.....can be so unfair!

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[quote user="pete_norw"]

 An HGV driver did the same he would never get his licence back, are you saying that Lorry drivers don''t deserve a second chance but footballers do.

[/quote]Sorry but that''s a ridiculous comparison as Lee Hughes'' career doesn''t rely on his driving but the HGV driver''s does.

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[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="First Wizard"][quote user="Say Hello To The Angels"]

What he did was wrong, but he has served his sentance and as such should be given a second chance and treated the same as anybody else, otherwise what''s the point in having a criminal justice system? We may as well just bring back hanging! Although worryingly I suspect some of you would actually be in favour of that.

[/quote]

His poor bloody victim and his family are serving their sentence permantly!...............and yes, I am for the death sentence, softly softly hasn''t worked..............full ruddy stop![:S]

[/quote]

Well, you''ve got your answer now, he isn''t playing, so how about you stop dragging your own thread off-topic with this pointless preening and flouncing ?
[/quote]

I didn''t take this off subject blah, the posters who asked me a direct question did!

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[quote user="still holding out for new heroes"]

My problems with the death penalty,

1, no justice system is perfect how many cases recently have there been of innocent people suffering a miscarriage of justice

2, not convinced it works as a deterrent - e.g America

3, look at the states who top the list of those that carry out the death penalty - China, Iran, India, Zimbabwe to name a few - it does not equate that the death penalty leads to a better, more lawful society

[/quote]My favourite argument against the death penalty is that it costs 9 times more to kill a man than to lock him up for life.Also and the fact that we don''t kill people is a sign that we are better than those that do kill.  Simple as that.

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Steve Earle made one of the most eloquent anti death penalty arguments in "Billy Austin" which still regularly reduces me to tears.It''s well worth checking out the full song

 

Now my waiting''s over as the final hour drags by

I aint about to tell you that I dont deserve to die

 But there''s twenty-seven men here mostly black,or brown and poor

Hell, most of them are guilty but who are you to say for sure?

So when the preacher comes to get me

And they shave off all my hair

Could you take that long walk with me knowing Hell is waiting there?

 Could you pull that switch yourself sir,with a sure and steady hand?

Then could you tell yourself  sir,

That you''re better than I am ?

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I can see a place for the death sentence but it should always be a sentence of last resort

Like others my issue is ensuring that executions only take place where there can be no doubt about guilt;  if there is 1% of doubt a life sentence should apply.

But I also wonder what cases should carry it.  Man-slaughter? No - not for me.  For me there is a world of difference between going out and carrying out a planned murder and failing to take care at the wheel of a care or watch a student on a canoeing trip.  All three result in an horrendous and unfortunate death.     

Even for murder there are shades of grey.  The person who acts completely out of character and flips because of a series of events.  It is still a death - murder or man slaughter - but should a single error cost you your life too?   It does not help the victim.  It may give a morbid but v short term sense of justice to the victims family but that does not mean it is the right thing to do.

I can see a space for the death sentence - but I also believe in people having a second chance.  So for me it is forgiveness (and I am not a religious man) but apply the death sentence to solid cases of guilt to those who would persist to be a threat to the population at large (which brings its own shades of grey in establishing I know).

As such 99.999% of deaths from car ACCIDENTS would not be punishable by death.

Not a popular or populist view - just very much my own. 

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[quote user="Beauseant"]

Steve Earle made one of the most eloquent anti death penalty arguments in "Billy Austin" which still regularly reduces me to tears.It''s well worth checking out the full song

 

Now my waiting''s over as the final hour drags by

I aint about to tell you that I dont deserve to die

 But there''s twenty-seven men here mostly black,or brown and poor

Hell, most of them are guilty but who are you to say for sure?

So when the preacher comes to get me

And they shave off all my hair

Could you take that long walk with me knowing Hell is waiting there?

 Could you pull that switch yourself sir,with a sure and steady hand?

Then could you tell yourself  sir,

That you''re better than I am ?

[/quote]

Fab song by a fab songwriter.

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[quote user="the1englishman"]

[quote user="Mutley"]Good point well made King Canary. I`m all for the death penalty (esp nowadays with so much DNA evidence making certain cases bang to rights). However I also belive in the mantra that you shouldn`t expect anyone to do something that you`re not prepared yo do yourself, and this is where my argument falls down. I know for a fact that I couldn`t flick the switch and therefore shouldn`t expect anyone else to do it. Hows that for hypocritical??[/quote]

 

I would have no problem "flicking" the switch.

[/quote]With respect, the point is not whether you would be happy to flick the switch on someone else. The point is whether you would be happy for someone else to flick the switch on you. Or on a member of your family. That is what you need to have no problem with.

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No sympathy for anyone who drinks and drives....Whether a pint''s consumed - or a gallon.....

If you intend going for a social, use a taxi or a bus, just don''t drink - or use a designated driver.....Hey, or even walk.

Or, if you have to arise early the next day and drive....don''t drink the night before.....

I''d quite happily go for zero-tolerance law regarding drink and driving....Oh, and not just drink, but also including illegal substances.

If you get caught, you should lose your licence....forever. If you don''t get caught and persist, you''re a loaded gun.....and It''ll be either an accident and death of innocents, or your bad driving that will catch you out.

A car/van/lorry - is a weapon.....as well as a mode of transport.

No excuses for drinking and driving.....It''s that time of year again, and if anyone on here does it, you''re a gonad and a stupid ar$e....

If you grab your keys and climb into your motor, fully intending to have a few.....If caught, It should be five years at least.

As same as the nob ''eads, that ''Max Power! charge around the estates late at night - showing every other easily impressed brainless onlooking nob ''eads - or their easily impressed walnut brained passengers - what an actual first class tossers and simpletons, they really are....

There''s enough dick-heads on the roads driving sober and not under the influence of anything ...let alone with ale and other cr@p pumping around their bloodstream and minuscule brains. 

End of.....

 

 

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[quote user="Mello Yello"]

No excuses for drinking and driving.....It''s that time of year again, and if anyone on here does it, you''re a gonad and a stupid ar$e....

If you grab your keys and climb into your motor, fully intending to have a few.....If caught, It should be five years at least.

[/quote]I absolutely agree with all this.  And if you kill someone with a car/motorbike/jeep/whatever while drunk, it''s murder.But if the state executes everyone guilty of murder, it becomes as savage as the worst criminal.

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[quote user="pete_norw"]

An HGV driver did the same he would never get his licence back, are you saying that Lorry drivers don''t deserve a second chance but footballers do, A work mate of mine had an extra drink one night  and was stopped,  He was banned from driving for 18months and they refused to renew his licence at the end of the ban, is that what you call justice is it,

[/quote]Yes.  He was convicted of drink driving.  He drives (or used to) for a living.  That is justice.

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[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

I can see a place for the death sentence but it should always be a sentence of last resort

Like others my issue is ensuring that executions only take place where there can be no doubt about guilt;  if there is 1% of doubt a life sentence should apply.

But I also wonder what cases should carry it.  Man-slaughter? No - not for me.  For me there is a world of difference between going out and carrying out a planned murder and failing to take care at the wheel of a care or watch a student on a canoeing trip.  All three result in an horrendous and unfortunate death.     

Even for murder there are shades of grey.  The person who acts completely out of character and flips because of a series of events.  It is still a death - murder or man slaughter - but should a single error cost you your life too?   It does not help the victim.  It may give a morbid but v short term sense of justice to the victims family but that does not mean it is the right thing to do.

I can see a space for the death sentence - but I also believe in people having a second chance.  So for me it is forgiveness (and I am not a religious man) but apply the death sentence to solid cases of guilt to those who would persist to be a threat to the population at large (which brings its own shades of grey in establishing I know).

As such 99.999% of deaths from car ACCIDENTS would not be punishable by death.

Not a popular or populist view - just very much my own. 

[/quote]This is pretty well my position. The odd thing is that it makes perfect sense if you adopt a completely materialistic, deterministic view of the world.It is perfectly possible that a process kicked off about 13.5 billion years ago which has resulted in where we are now. It is the result of all the untold googleplexes of interactions since that time; this complexity leads to the impossibility of accurately determining the future.If this is so, there is no free will, therefore no guilt, innocence, or indeed morality. Everything was always going to happen, but nobody could predict it.In which case we need a different way of looking at the world; a way which accepts we are all locked into this fallen, sub-lunary existence together. We need to be compassionate & pragmatic. Some people are just too irredeemably dangerous & so lacking in basic humanity that their existence harms the rest of us.If it had to be done, I would favour apoxia.

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[quote user="First Wizard"]

I didn''t take this off subject blah, the posters who asked me a direct question did!

[/quote]Bull$hit Wiz. This thread has gone in exactly the direction you wanted it to. After all, a quick look on the BBC Sport website would have told you whether Lee Hughes was likely to be playing today [;)]

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[quote user="Shack Attack"][quote user="First Wizard"]

I didn''t take this off subject blah, the posters who asked me a direct question did!

[/quote]

Bull$hit Wiz. This thread has gone in exactly the direction you wanted it to. After all, a quick look on the BBC Sport website would have told you whether Lee Hughes was likely to be playing today [;)]
[/quote]

I never visit that site, next![:|]

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[quote user="First Wizard"][quote user="Shack Attack"][quote user="First Wizard"]

I didn''t take this off subject blah, the posters who asked me a direct question did!

[/quote]Bull$hit Wiz. This thread has gone in exactly the direction you wanted it to. After all, a quick look on the BBC Sport website would have told you whether Lee Hughes was likely to be playing today [;)][/quote]

I never visit that site, next![:|]

[/quote]Why doesn''t that surprise me [:|]Maybe typing ''Lee Hughes'' into Google then [;)]

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[quote user="First Wizard"][quote user="Shack Attack"][quote user="First Wizard"]

I didn''t take this off subject blah, the posters who asked me a direct question did!

[/quote]Bull$hit Wiz. This thread has gone in exactly the direction you wanted it to. After all, a quick look on the BBC Sport website would have told you whether Lee Hughes was likely to be playing today [;)][/quote]

I never visit that site, next![:|]

[/quote]Too many facts, not enough gossip no doubt...

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[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="First Wizard"][quote user="Shack Attack"][quote user="First Wizard"]

I didn''t take this off subject blah, the posters who asked me a direct question did!

[/quote]

Bull$hit Wiz. This thread has gone in exactly the direction you wanted it to. After all, a quick look on the BBC Sport website would have told you whether Lee Hughes was likely to be playing today [;)]
[/quote]

I never visit that site, next![:|]

[/quote]

Too many facts, not enough gossip no doubt...
[/quote]

Somehow facts, and the BBC sounds odd to me!

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Stack em as high as you can, fill the cells up. Have an electric chair 100 yards down a corridor, the only execise should be to walk to it every day then if they don''t want to walk back they can sit down and flick the switch themselves.

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