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Streaming Sites - Are they illegal ?

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Howdy allI recently had a post in here deleted because it contained a link to a streaming site for live football matches.  I was told that the reason for the deleted message was "illegal sites".  I am not someone who would encourage people to engage in illegal activity, and as far as I am aware, there is no current legal precedent that states that match streaming is illegal.  If it is, why aren''t the owners of the sites in question, whose domain names are quite well known after all, being pursued with the utmost vigour by the likes of Rupert Murdoch ?Maybe PurpleCanary can help me out with this one - is streaming illegal, and could Sky et al make a conviction stick ?There is a side issue here, regarding Skys'' requirement for people to fork out £30 per month to rent a channel, which is a waste of money if you only want to watch one team that appears on their channel 4 times a season tops, but that is by the by...

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As far as I''m aware it is covered by copyright.  Justin.tv streams get removed if the broadcasters spot them and demand their removal through breach of copyright. 

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No. There are many sites that offer free videos and movies online for

free which do so without violating copyright

agreement. Furthermore, it is not illegal to access content that is

copyrighted, it is illegal to make copyrighted material accessible.

Torrenting programs and other P2P applications are illegal because when

you access the materials you are also sharing them. However, direct

download services are only illegal for the person uploading the

infringing content.Frankly they go after those that are streaming the programmes as opposed to those viewing.  As Premiership games (even at 3PM) are sold to other countries to watch live it''s nigh on impossible for those that own the rights to prevent people watching.  Hence why it would be pretty much impossible for them to close site''s such as Sopcast not to mention You Tube and others.Perhaps if it were more liberal to the countries where the action is being shown and those that live in the Country being the one''s who pay for the infrastructure to broadcast it (i.e we pay our license) and stop people like Murdoch trying to levy ridiculous charges on Sport then it could all be dealt with.  Unfortunately the rich want more and more, so I say sod-em and big up to sites like Sopcast.

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[quote user="blahblahblah"]Maybe PurpleCanary can help me out with this one - is streaming illegal, and could Sky et al make a conviction stick ?[/quote]blah, copyright law not an expertise of mine - thank the lord! I could give you a half-decent opinion on whether something on a streamed programme was defamatory, but not on the more basic issue you have raised.But, if AndyJR is right (and if I have understood him correctly) the answer is that it is illegal to stream Sky, for example, but the viewer would not be the one in the line of fire from Sky lawyers - it would be the company doing the streaming.PS. Bear in mind, in reading my answer, that I don''t actually have a clue what streaming is!!!

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AFAIK it is not illegal to link to *any* site, regardless of the legality of the site linked. There is no reason for them to be removed, technically...

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[quote user="First Jedi"]AFAIK it is not illegal to link to *any* site, regardless of the legality of the site linked. There is no reason for them to be removed, technically...[/quote]

Other than it being in the code of conduct on this forum. Many thanks.

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[quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="blahblahblah"]Maybe PurpleCanary can help me out with this one - is streaming illegal, and could Sky et al make a conviction stick ?[/quote]blah, copyright law not an expertise of mine - thank the lord! I could give you a half-decent opinion on whether something on a streamed programme was defamatory, but not on the more basic issue you have raised.But, if AndyJR is right (and if I have understood him correctly) the answer is that it is illegal to stream Sky, for example, but the viewer would not be the one in the line of fire from Sky lawyers - it would be the company doing the streaming.PS. Bear in mind, in reading my answer, that I don''t actually have a clue what streaming is!!![/quote]That''s pretty much it.  Streaming is different to sharing. Also those''s streaming aren''t usually companies their individuals who have job''s in the computing sector and hence have the hardware to do it and the bandwidth. That with the fact they are usually based abroad makes them very difficult to track down, technically it might be illegal in the country from where they are streaming from but the authorities very probably don''t put a massively high importance on closing them down - think of the paperwork.In all honesty, my bug bear is the Ashe''s not being made available for all to watch in this country.  As Glenn McGrath wrote ''if it wasn''t free to air here, there would be rioting on the streets''. Then again they put more importance on allowing people to watch sport over there, probably why their quite good at most things!!  (I think SDP will agree with my last paragraph)

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[quote user="Sports Desk - Pete"]

[quote user="First Jedi"]AFAIK it is not illegal to link to *any* site, regardless of the legality of the site linked. There is no reason for them to be removed, technically...[/quote]

Other than it being in the code of conduct on this forum. Many thanks.

[/quote]That''s told you then! [:O]

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[quote user="Clipped Canary"][quote user="Sports Desk - Pete"]

[quote user="First Jedi"]AFAIK it is not illegal to link to *any* site, regardless of the legality of the site linked. There is no reason for them to be removed, technically...[/quote]

Other than it being in the code of conduct on this forum. Many thanks.

[/quote]

That''s told you then! [:O]
[/quote]

 

I go all gooey inside when Pete comes over all masterful!

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I''ve read my original post back, and it might look like I''m having a pop at Pete and team for deleting my message.  I''m not, I''m genuinely curious about this, as it seems to be rather a grey area.  Rupert Murdoch tells me that he wants to compete with Google, and that he wants to make money from the internet.  If he wants my business, instead of demanding that I pay £30 a month and strap an unsightly piece of metal to my house, he can offer me live matches for my team (which his company are recording anyway for the highlights) over the internet for either a  monthly subscription per league per month, or on a pay per view basis ( I would suggest of no more than £1.99, anything more than that for league 1 or championship would be ridicukous ) - without all this multi-channel, multi-layered product nonsense that pervades his "services".  And if he can''t offer me that, I will continue to stream when I can, safe in the knowledge that I won''t be the one targetted by his lawyers.

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[quote user="blahblahblah"]I''ve read my original post back, and it might look like I''m having a pop at Pete and team for deleting my message.  I''m not, I''m genuinely curious about this, as it seems to be rather a grey area.  Rupert Murdoch tells me that he wants to compete with Google, and that he wants to make money from the internet.  If he wants my business, instead of demanding that I pay £30 a month and strap an unsightly piece of metal to my house, he can offer me live matches for my team (which his company are recording anyway for the highlights) over the internet for either a  monthly subscription per league per month, or on a pay per view basis ( I would suggest of no more than £1.99, anything more than that for league 1 or championship would be ridicukous ) - without all this multi-channel, multi-layered product nonsense that pervades his "services".  And if he can''t offer me that, I will continue to stream when I can, safe in the knowledge that I won''t be the one targetted by his lawyers.[/quote]Believe me Blah, I don''t talk much nonsense on here and I  admit to a bias but I also have many  (and there not all bad!) Lawyer''s in the family (I''m not, I''m the black sheep).  Your not at risk by watching only if you start to plug your sky box or even try to put Radio Norfolk to air, then it''s different.  Watching is not possible to stop because in a round-about-way, your doing something wrong but frankly, no one cares. (as in those that own the rights). Sleep safe, not being boastful but I know a little about this stuff and hence I''m an advocate of not being ripped off.

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[quote user="AndyJR"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="blahblahblah"]

Maybe PurpleCanary can help me out with this one - is streaming illegal, and could Sky et al make a conviction stick ?

[/quote]

blah, copyright law not an expertise of mine - thank the lord! I could give you a half-decent opinion on whether something on a streamed programme was defamatory, but not on the more basic issue you have raised.

But, if AndyJR is right (and if I have understood him correctly) the answer is that it is illegal to stream Sky, for example, but the viewer would not be the one in the line of fire from Sky lawyers - it would be the company doing the streaming.

PS. Bear in mind, in reading my answer, that I don''t actually have a clue what streaming is!!![/quote]

That''s pretty much it.  Streaming is different to sharing. Also those''s streaming aren''t usually companies their individuals who have job''s in the computing sector and hence have the hardware to do it and the bandwidth. That with the fact they are usually based abroad makes them very difficult to track down, technically it might be illegal in the country from where they are streaming from but the authorities very probably don''t put a massively high importance on closing them down - think of the paperwork.

In all honesty, my bug bear is the Ashe''s not being made available for all to watch in this country.  As Glenn McGrath wrote ''if it wasn''t free to air here, there would be rioting on the streets''. Then again they put more importance on allowing people to watch sport over there, probably why their quite good at most things!!  (I think SDP will agree with my last paragraph)
[/quote]

Agreed. If The Ashes next year isn''t free-to-air I may have to go to Australia to watch it...

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[quote user="blahblahblah"]I''ve read my original post back, and it might look like I''m having a pop at Pete and team for deleting my message.  I''m not, I''m genuinely curious about this, as it seems to be rather a grey area.  Rupert Murdoch tells me that he wants to compete with Google, and that he wants to make money from the internet.  If he wants my business, instead of demanding that I pay £30 a month and strap an unsightly piece of metal to my house, he can offer me live matches for my team (which his company are recording anyway for the highlights) over the internet for either a  monthly subscription per league per month, or on a pay per view basis ( I would suggest of no more than £1.99, anything more than that for league 1 or championship would be ridicukous ) - without all this multi-channel, multi-layered product nonsense that pervades his "services".  And if he can''t offer me that, I will continue to stream when I can, safe in the knowledge that I won''t be the one targetted by his lawyers.
[/quote]

No worries blahx3, never took it as a pop. When it comes to grey areas we tend to err on the side of caution.

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[quote user="Sports Desk - Pete"]

[quote user="blahblahblah"]I''ve read my original post back, and it might look like I''m having a pop at Pete and team for deleting my message.  I''m not, I''m genuinely curious about this, as it seems to be rather a grey area.  Rupert Murdoch tells me that he wants to compete with Google, and that he wants to make money from the internet.  If he wants my business, instead of demanding that I pay £30 a month and strap an unsightly piece of metal to my house, he can offer me live matches for my team (which his company are recording anyway for the highlights) over the internet for either a  monthly subscription per league per month, or on a pay per view basis ( I would suggest of no more than £1.99, anything more than that for league 1 or championship would be ridicukous ) - without all this multi-channel, multi-layered product nonsense that pervades his "services".  And if he can''t offer me that, I will continue to stream when I can, safe in the knowledge that I won''t be the one targetted by his lawyers.
[/quote]

No worries blahx3, never took it as a pop. When it comes to grey areas we tend to err on the side of caution.

[/quote]

Why err on the side of Cawston?

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[quote user="Mello Yello"][quote user="Sports Desk - Pete"]

[quote user="blahblahblah"]I''ve read my original post back, and it might look like I''m having a pop at Pete and team for deleting my message.  I''m not, I''m genuinely curious about this, as it seems to be rather a grey area.  Rupert Murdoch tells me that he wants to compete with Google, and that he wants to make money from the internet.  If he wants my business, instead of demanding that I pay £30 a month and strap an unsightly piece of metal to my house, he can offer me live matches for my team (which his company are recording anyway for the highlights) over the internet for either a  monthly subscription per league per month, or on a pay per view basis ( I would suggest of no more than £1.99, anything more than that for league 1 or championship would be ridicukous ) - without all this multi-channel, multi-layered product nonsense that pervades his "services".  And if he can''t offer me that, I will continue to stream when I can, safe in the knowledge that I won''t be the one targetted by his lawyers.[/quote]

No worries blahx3, never took it as a pop. When it comes to grey areas we tend to err on the side of caution.

[/quote]

Why err on the side of Cawston?

[/quote]Err on the side of Mello''s lame jokes, always try and prop it up with a picture.

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one question Pete, is a link just removed if it say links to a live Match on Justintv? For example the posts re saturdays feed were not deleted... if one of the online bookies showed a game (and bet fair do so regularly) on their site, would we be able to link to it as its a fully paid for subscription by them?

 

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[quote user="Sports Desk - Pete"]

[quote user="First Jedi"]AFAIK it is not illegal to link to *any* site, regardless of the legality of the site linked. There is no reason for them to be removed, technically...[/quote]

Other than it being in the code of conduct on this forum. Many thanks.

[/quote]No need to get defensive... I was answering his question; "Streaming Sites - Are they illegal?".As it is you''ll have to forgive my ignorance. I hadn''t realised that the Archant Code of Conduct Act of 2009 had actually passed into UK law and made linking to streaming sites a matter of legality. I was always under the impression it was simply a back-covering exercise that was understandably employed by Archant to save themselves any hassle, but little else - and certainly not legal - but I appreciate you clearing up my confusion.

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I think you will find that Archant''s approach is purely precautionary and to protect them from being accused of actively promoting what might later be regarded as a site using "illegal material."  If they were ever accused of same the act of removal would be a mitigating factor in their defence.

 

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I know this... as I said above... but I was trying to answer the original question.... "Steaming Sites - are they illegal" - as I''ve also said above.

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Sorry to make my point really clear;Are streaming sites illegal? No.Are linking to know illegal sites illegal? No.Should Archant not allow those links, to cover themselves from any eventuality? Yes. If they so wish. I have respect for that, as it''s their site and their choice.Do I link to those site? No. It''s against their terms of conduct....

Cool?

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[quote user="AndyJR"]No. There are many sites that offer free videos and movies online for free which do so without violating copyright agreement. Furthermore, it is not illegal to access content that is copyrighted, it is illegal to make copyrighted material accessible. Torrenting programs and other P2P applications are illegal because when you access the materials you are also sharing them. However, direct download services are only illegal for the person uploading the infringing content.

Frankly they go after those that are streaming the programmes as opposed to those viewing.  As Premiership games (even at 3PM) are sold to other countries to watch live it''s nigh on impossible for those that own the rights to prevent people watching.  Hence why it would be pretty much impossible for them to close site''s such as Sopcast not to mention You Tube and others.

Perhaps if it were more liberal to the countries where the action is being shown and those that live in the Country being the one''s who pay for the infrastructure to broadcast it (i.e we pay our license) and stop people like Murdoch trying to levy ridiculous charges on Sport then it could all be dealt with.  Unfortunately the rich want more and more, so I say sod-em and big up to sites like Sopcast.

[/quote]

Andy, while I have no idea if you''re correct in regards to the laws on accessing v''s making accessible (and what you say appears to make sense), it may interest you to point out that applications like Sopcast also use peer-to-peer (P2P) technology as well - just like torrents. When you are watching a feed using applications like Sopcast, TVU etc, you''re actually uploading content to another peer as you download it. The rationale behind this is that using this model, it takes the load off the original source of the stream, meaning that a good feed of the video can be established without the need for a massive amount of computing and networking resources at the source.

Therefore, if you are watching a feed using Sopcast, and if you''re definition above is correct, you are indeed breaking the law by watching and providing that feed.

That said, I believe JustinTV is a feed, and does not use P2P, although I''m not 100% on that.

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P2P is indeed sharing but your pretty safe using it.  If you weren''t then you provider (Virgin in my case) would put a stop to it.  I think the point I''m trying to make is the copyright holder''s are highly unlikely to go after individuals.

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Again, not sure of the legal aspects, but a lot of the premiership matches that get streamed are being streamed from Asia or Ameria, where presumably the laws are different?However as someone points out, some sites are P2P so technically your doing the uploading at the same time. By the same token I stream episode of lost/prison break etc, always wondered if that was technically illegal.[:S]

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I read the Virgin post above... then I saw this article;

"Virgin Media Using Deep Packet Inspection To Spy On Your Internet Usage For Hollywood"

http://techdirt.com/articles/20091130/0316037113.shtml

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[quote user="Sports Desk - Pete"]

[quote user="AndyJR"][quote user="PurpleCanary"][quote user="blahblahblah"]Maybe PurpleCanary can help me out with this one - is streaming illegal, and could Sky et al make a conviction stick ?[/quote]blah, copyright law not an expertise of mine - thank the lord! I could give you a half-decent opinion on whether something on a streamed programme was defamatory, but not on the more basic issue you have raised.But, if AndyJR is right (and if I have understood him correctly) the answer is that it is illegal to stream Sky, for example, but the viewer would not be the one in the line of fire from Sky lawyers - it would be the company doing the streaming.PS. Bear in mind, in reading my answer, that I don''t actually have a clue what streaming is!!![/quote]That''s pretty much it.  Streaming is different to sharing. Also those''s streaming aren''t usually companies their individuals who have job''s in the computing sector and hence have the hardware to do it and the bandwidth. That with the fact they are usually based abroad makes them very difficult to track down, technically it might be illegal in the country from where they are streaming from but the authorities very probably don''t put a massively high importance on closing them down - think of the paperwork.In all honesty, my bug bear is the Ashe''s not being made available for all to watch in this country.  As Glenn McGrath wrote ''if it wasn''t free to air here, there would be rioting on the streets''. Then again they put more importance on allowing people to watch sport over there, probably why their quite good at most things!!  (I think SDP will agree with my last paragraph)[/quote]

Agreed. If The Ashes next year isn''t free-to-air I may have to go to Australia to watch it...

[/quote]One of my life dreams is to watch the Ashes in Australia.  [:D]

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