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Kidderminster Canary

prem 2 division

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New talk today of a second premier division with no promotion from football league ! We must get back to Championship before the door slams shut.

It will happen one day, also prem to include Celtic and Rangers. The board must be brave.

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It''ll happen.

Gartside, the Bolton Chairman is protecting his and his clubs hide by pretending to make it a bigger issue-but his interests are first, foremost, and only concerned with Bolton Wanderers.

The financial appeal of Celtic and Rangers joining the Premiership-for that league, those clubs, and increased TV revenue abroad is colossal. We are being softened up at the moment, as, Managers like Redknapp and O''Neill are saying "what a good idea" it is, you don''t think that, someone, somewhere, is briefing them and saying its "OK" to say that?

People will think if Managers are welcoming the prospect, it can''t be such a bad thing?

The Prem will be split-18 clubs in Prem A and 18 clubs in Prem B. As a "concession", Celtic and Rangers will join Prem B.

So it will work out with the top 18 clubs in the Prem forming "A", then, Celtic, Rangers and the bottom two clubs in the Prem that season, plus 14 other clubs-and not necessarily the next 14 in the Championship-making up the numbers.

Then it''ll be locked, no promotion to, nor relegation from, Prem B.

The clubs that miss out will have a new "Football League Championship" as their top division, it''ll get new sponsorship, more prize money, maybe a new TV deal-nothing like what Prem B will be on in all cases-and repackaged as "real football" for the "real fans" etc etc, the fact that there is no promotion from it will be explained that it promotes "consistency" and "no financial gulf in the game anymore" bla bla bla.

The Prem A and B clubs may well have their own cup competition, they will certainly opt out of the League Cup, and the FA Cup will be in danger as well.

Quite what would happen to Scottish football I can''t imagine, but the current spin about it "thriving" without Celtic and Rangers is just that, they are propping that league and the game in that country up.

Our Board can be as "brave" as they like, but our input and that of all the others that may be excluded, will count for absolutely nothing.

This has been talked about for years, but there is no smoke without fire, and I suspect the current talk is another step towards it being introduced, quite possibly within the next 3-5 years.

Can you imagine it?

Clubs like Arsenal, Man Utd etc-34 league games a season, no League Cup, quite possibly no FA Cup, international matches "reserved" (as many want) for competitive/qualifying games only?

All that time to jet around the world for friendlies and, possibly, a range of Prem A and Prem B matches to be played in Bahrain/Malaysia/USA etc, as was touted a little while ago?

I don''t doubt for one moment that this will eventually happen in someway not too far removed from that at all.

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It will be like Rugby League''s Super League a totally stupid idea for football.

Is this the same idea what Gartside had before about Cherrypicking the clubs with the best grounds and most money from the lower divisions. So clubs like Leeds and Leicester would be automatically in it regardless of what division they are in.

Lets hope Bolton get relegated and struggle in championship then we''ll see what plans are on the table then. A few more 5-1 defeats for them would be good.

We could have done the same when Bolton were a crap side and we were near top of Premiership 93 94 years.

As for Celtic and Rangers if they want to join our league they should start like any club does on the bottom rung of the ladder, why should they just jump ahead of teams that have tried for years to get into Premier League.

All this and the mickey mouse 39th game, just what happens when sport is poisoned by money.

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Personally I don''t believe it will... I''ve never heard anything bar a few stupid idea''s from a handful of idiots that make me think it''s even close to happening.

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i think the football league should step in with their own re-structuring before this is even considered.

the premier is fast becoming an even more uncompetitive league for those who haven''t got a billionaire sugar daddy to fund them, i reckon the football league should shut up shop from the premiership ie, no promotion to it or relegation from it, impose tight new rules on playing budgets so that no club will find itself in financial hardship as they will only be able to play within their means etc.

with it they will take the fa and league cups, and probably the european places that come with them.

the first few seasons will be tough financially but it would even out in the end, leaving the 20 clubs who choose to stay in the prem in a hopeless competition which is won on the transfer market and not on the pitch.

the football league on the other hand would have a competitive league with no club worrying over if they are going to survive financially one season to the next. i know the standard of football will not be as high but how many of you are enjoying this season more than the last three or four ones? the quality isn''t great but we are watching are own team competing at last.

there are loads of teams who have come down from the premiership recently, including us, and some still there who have got themselves in big trouble financially in chasing that dream of being in that league, what benefit did that season there give us?

if we ever get there again we will never be able to stay there without some serious money, and we are not talking ''peter cullum'' type investment anymore, we would need even more than that, and i dont think i want us to go down that road anymore.

i would much rather be in a league that is competitive and which is determined by the teams and supporters and not some shady arab/chinese consortium club owners.

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Inevitable that this sort of idea would come from one of the tinpot prem clubs who worry that if they get relegated they won''t get back in a hurry because they don''t have the fanbase. Gartside is beyond contempt as far as I am concerned for pushing this idea.

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It will be like Rugby League''s Super League a totally stupid idea for football.

Agree-gates and TV money for RL Super League are on the up, but the game outside of that top division is a wasteland, and, as we have a "big four" in the Prem, RL Super League has Leeds, St Helens-and the rest!

Is this the same idea what Gartside had before about Cherrypicking the clubs with the best grounds and most money from the lower divisions. So clubs like Leeds and Leicester would be automatically in it regardless of what division they are in.

Exactly-they will cherrypick clubs on that basis, teams like Doncaster could finish above the likes of Leeds, Leicester etc, but would be "discounted" on some spurious reasoning that is hiding the real truth (ie) they are not as lucrative a "member" as some others might be. Football and ability on the pitch seems to come a close second or third to revenue potential and how many shirts you can shift.

Lets hope Bolton get relegated and struggle in championship then we''ll see what plans are on the table then. A few more 5-1 defeats for them would be good.

We could have done the same when Bolton were a crap side and we were near top of Premiership 93 94 years.

Again, agree. But, had this been devised then, despite our success at the time, would we have been included? I doubt it.

As for Celtic and Rangers if they want to join our league they should start like any club does on the bottom rung of the ladder, why should they just jump ahead of teams that have tried for years to get into Premier League.

Yep. If they want in, then they start where clubs like FC United of Manchester and the "new" Wimbledon did-low down and work your way up.

All this and the mickey mouse 39th game, just what happens when sport is poisoned by money.

"poisoned" -couldn''t have put it better.

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Plan B, your idea of a "pre-emptive" strike from the Football League is brilliant and might just work, ahd they the balls and conviction to press ahead with it!

The same 18-20 clubs on TV, the same fixtures, week in/week out, people would certainly tire of it. The BBC are getting graet audience figures for their FL games, gates are big, and interest is on the up. Like it!

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[quote user="Old Shuck"]Plan B, your idea of a "pre-emptive" strike from the Football League is brilliant and might just work, ahd they the balls and conviction to press ahead with it!

The same 18-20 clubs on TV, the same fixtures, week in/week out, people would certainly tire of it. The BBC are getting graet audience figures for their FL games, gates are big, and interest is on the up. Like it![/quote]

i know, why i am not in charge i will never know!

but you are right, the paying public will soon become bored of the prem, the football league will be available on free to air stations, probably a new bbc sports channel . people will then stop subscribing to their £40 a month sky sports packages leaving the teams in the prem potless and begging to come back into the football league again, but this time it will be on the fa''s terms, not on rupert murdochs.

give it time and it could happen.

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Although I can see why the Glasgow clubs wnat it to happen, why should the Prem want them to join, and how would they join, would it mean that those who were due to be promote go up or not.

Scottish footy would fall off the map, and we would see the likes of Hearts, Hibs and Dundee U in Europe...madness!!

The only thing I would like to see is NCFC in the Prem.

The Champions League provides plenty of entertainment for European football, no need for a European league.

The 2 tier 20/20 league would mean more teams, more money, more debt and the football balloon will get very big too quickly and the bottom will fall out.

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All changes to the Prem require a two thirds majority. This idea has come from Bolton & will probably get luke warm support from the bottom feeding clubs. However, there is no way the big four will comtemplate sharing their cash with a Prem B league and similarly any club with pretension to the Champions League will do either (say Villa, Spurs & Man City) so its dead in the water unless even more cash can be extracted from the fans to sub it.

More likely to see the big clubs break away and form a European Super League.

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[quote user="norfolkchance1"]It will be like Rugby League''s Super League a totally stupid idea for football.

Is this the same idea what Gartside had before about Cherrypicking the clubs with the best grounds and most money from the lower divisions. So clubs like Leeds and Leicester would be automatically in it regardless of what division they are in.

Lets hope Bolton get relegated and struggle in championship then we''ll see what plans are on the table then. A few more 5-1 defeats for them would be good.

We could have done the same when Bolton were a crap side and we were near top of Premiership 93 94 years.

As for Celtic and Rangers if they want to join our league they should start like any club does on the bottom rung of the ladder, why should they just jump ahead of teams that have tried for years to get into Premier League.

All this and the mickey mouse 39th game, just what happens when sport is poisoned by money.[/quote]Quite right. It is totally stupid. In addition to that, what would happen if some of the clubs started seriously declining? Although Newcastle would be in it, they used to finish inside the top 4 but were relegated last season! I can''t really see this happening to any of the big clubs, but Arsenal haven''t won any silverwear for something like over 4 years!

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I dont have any problem with a re-structuring of the league system.   However there are two points that I am completely opposed to

The first is the inclusion of Celtic and Rangers (or any other club side)  They arae affiliated to the Scottish FA and we have an english FA product.   And it is teh English FA that is responsible for ENGLISH football from grass roots in schools to the highest professional levels.   There is a clear tiering system and as with Wimbldon AFC/the real Manure new clubs in England need to grow their way through that pyramid.

And that is my second most significant concern.  Every club should have an achievable aim to become one of the largest in the country.  The FA hold the reigns of that complete pyramid,  with teh exception of the football league which is its own entity.   However I passionately believe that a wroxham or lowestoft should be able to progress through the system to compete in their country top division.

Is there a developed major football nation that does not allow this?  Was it livorno in italy who recentkly broke into the top ranks - and wolfsburg is but a village in Germany.   Creating a closed league is worng on so many levels,  Man U woudl not have existed as they are today if such a league was created in the time of Prestons Invincibles or the amateur clubs such as corinthians.

The rich clubs will continue to get richer, that cannot be stopped,  however having money poured into chelsea and man citeh HAS made the premiership a better league  this season - and it was not long ago that citeh were, like us, rightly outside the top two tiers of english football. 

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I would feel the same - we deserve to be a tier three side this season and it would be the same - if we are not good enough we should get relegated and another team able to take our place.

IF it happens would I want to be in or out?    As I want to be able to watch the very best football at my club - so ultimately, hypocritically,  I would rather be in than out - but that does not make it right.

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Apart from the massive gulf in finances between the club, i cannot see anything wrong with teh current system.Clubs are where they are based on their ability to perform with what they have, and that is how it should stay. Clubs cannot get seperated because of money, but unfortunatly football is no longer about what happens on the pitch, its all about what happens off the pitch now. And with all respect to Fulham they close to sell-out for most of their games and are far better supported than Wigan and Bolton. I just can''t stand to see this game ruined because of money, it should go back to the ability of the footballing that determines the standings in all leagues, not the fact that 3 or 4 sides can go out and buy success, and are allowed to operate with debts that would cripple any other side in football!!There are so many things wrong with the game, but the structure is not one of them imo.

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I can''t see this ever happening to be honest. 75% of the teams in The Premier League would need to agree to it and the ''Big Four'' and the teams who have ambitions to join them (Man City, Spurs, Villa etc.) are never going to vote to share their TV riches with more teams. Sounds to me as if the teams who have lived beyond their means in trying to stay with the big boys are starting to get a little worried about what will happen if they''re relegated. The news that came out about Hull last week should tell you all you need to know about why the likes of Bolton are so keen on this idea.

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This is yet another sign that the game is heading for a crisis due to the unsustainable spiralling of wages and transfer fees. Clubs have lived beyond their means for way too long and at some point the first domino will fall. It''s like a stockmarket bubble: prices become ridiculously inflated, but while everyone keeps their nerve it all hangs together. Unfortunately, at some point people start to realise that, like the coyote in Roadrunner, they''ve run off the edge of the cliff and the only way is down - very fast!

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Zipper makes the most points I agree with. And why do we always forget about the FA when we discuss these things. Every football team in the country is affiliated to the FA so we should question their constant crawling to the big clubs much more loudly. They even put their name to the Premiership when it was formed. Is there a two tier membership to the FA. Do they charge more to the big clubs to allow them such a say in what happens?

 

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If you remove the hopes of promotion and the threat of relegation you take a lot of the emotion out of football, the desire to improve and the dreams that every fan in the lower leagues has. I would personally lose interest in the higher leagues and probably go and watch a lower level of football where the ups and downs still exist. The answer to the money problems is maybe to regionalise the lower leagues, base player wages on turnover of the individual club, and spread more of the TV revenues from the top to the lower levels. Making the rich richer and the poor poorer while removing their dreams, is the worst thing that the authorities could  do to football and will kill interest in the game.  

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Yes I am sure it will happen, probably within 2 to 3 years.

It is just like when the Prem was formed ,we were lucky then as we were founder members .

Our only hope is promotion this year and at least mid table in our first championship season otherwise we would miss the split .

my guess is 2 x 18 club leagues which will include 2 from scotland and 1 fron Ireland so thats a Max of 33 English clubs.

Whats left will mean a situation where the rest get poorer and the rich clubs richer.

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I hope this plan doesn''t happen, Scottish football is in enough trouble post-Setanta.  But if it does, it needn''t be the end of the world for well-supported clubs outside the 2 main divisions like ours, and possibly Leeds / Southampton / Charlton.  With internet-based highlights mini-programmes offered by the likes of the Beeb and Canaries World, clubs would still recieve revenue of a sort, especially if the idea of "micro-payments" takes off.  How far away are we from on-demand live matches for any club ?  Any reason why the cameras used to provide highlights + local radio commentary could not be combined for a streaming service ?   For a club with a fan-base that stretches far and wide like Norwich, there will always be people willing to pay for such a service.

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I can see there being objections from the police to this proposal. I would have thought the prospect of Rangers and Celtic each playing in London 5 times a year would give the met nightmares, not to mention Rangers playing in Dublin if an Irish ''franchise'' were to be inluded.

Speaking as someone whose family come from Glasgow, all Rangers fans, I also find the attitude of the Old Firm to be arrogant in the extreme.

Of course none of the above means it will not happen, and as has already been stated promotion this season becomes even more of a priority. 

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[quote user="Kidderminster Canary"]Yes I am sure it will happen, probably within 2 to 3 years. It is just like when the Prem was formed ,we were lucky then as we were founder members . Our only hope is promotion this year and at least mid table in our first championship season otherwise we would miss the split . my guess is 2 x 18 club leagues which will include 2 from scotland and 1 fron Ireland so thats a Max of 33 English clubs. Whats left will mean a situation where the rest get poorer and the rich clubs richer.[/quote]

Bringing Scottish teams into our leagues is a recipe for disaster. Having travelled with Scottish fans and supported Scotland abroad as an Englishman, I have seen and experienced the open hostility from some Scots to the English.  It''s a sure way of getting our clubs getting kicked out of Europe again.

 

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I think a closed Premier League is inevitable and have been saying so on this Forum for years. When it will come is anybodies guess but it has been obvious from the start that this was the desired outcome of the big clubs.

The NFL is the pattern they want to follow. Clubs will no longer be part of a community where they are run and owned by local shareholders. They will be franchises owned by rich men with no real attatchment to the area or the fans. Indeed we can see the beginnings of this already happening with the foreign owners of Chelsea, Arsenal, Man U etc. How long will it be before owners start trying to move clus to areas with bigger fanbases? We''ve already seen that happen with Wimbledon morphing into MK Dons so don''t think that this cannot happen.

It will be a sad day for NCFC if we are left out in the cold so all the more reason why we must stop at nothing to get out of league one this year.

A closed Premier league is going to happen sooner or later. NCFC MUST be part of it.

 

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[quote user="ricardo"]

The NFL is the pattern they want to follow. Clubs will no longer be part of a community where they are run and owned by local shareholders. They will be franchises owned by rich men with no real attatchment to the area or the fans. Indeed we can see the beginnings of this already happening with the foreign owners of Chelsea, Arsenal, Man U etc. How long will it be before owners start trying to move clus to areas with bigger fanbases? We''ve already seen that happen with Wimbledon morphing into MK Dons so don''t think that this cannot happen.

 

 

[/quote]Someone who knows more about the NFL than I do might be able to answer this, but my impression was that the movement of clubs by owners from one town to another was only feasible because:1. There are some cities (LA, for example, or New York) big enough to cope with two teams.2. At any one time there are big cities without teams.Neither (now that Milton Keynes has a team) of those applies in England.

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