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Shock and Horror - Gunny has a new job

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[quote user="Camuldonum"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

They are good points Tangie. And I doubt there''s many would argue. I can understand Gunny being caretaker after Roeder was sacked. I can just about see the logic in giving him, with Crook and Butterworth, ''til the end of last season. The other two are experienced football manager/coaches. And also the playerswere apparently in favour. But to be reappointed after managing an awful and mostly toothless relegation defied belief.

I often wonder why these obvious football mistakes rarely get a mention when the board are attacked. I daresay that come the AGM folk will be falling over themselves to ask pointless questions about investment based on rumour and supposition. I may well work out a question asking the reasons for Gunns appointment after relegation. Although I agree that we finally seem to have the right manager for where we are now I would love to know the thinking behind the decision to appoint Gunny in May.

 

[/quote]

All this debate seems, this end, to emanate from something that appears to be rarely discussed : the actual wisdom of sacking Roeder in the first place.  Why this has fallen off the radar is beyond me.

History can tell you that appointing Gunny was a mistake but it might equally tell you that sacking Roeder falls into the same category except that no one can do a rewind with Roeder.

Jury out I think.  Fired after a meaningless FA Cup game with no one waiting in the wings to take over, no one lined up, no one approached.  Fired when the transfer door was sliding shut at a rate of knots (and PS no one rang from Norwich rang Boothroyd).

Cut to a WTF do we do now situation.  Well, ring up the Northern Ireland manager in downtown North Norfolk and suggests he does a job share between an international job and Norwich City.  No go?  Or as Nigel so eloquently put it: "What a ridiculous idea."

Common sense would tell you H v Charlton to mark the Manager''s card and if he took you into relegation then it is goodbye.  Roeder claims - as he would - that he would have kept you in the Championship but as you did not persist until the end of last season that, also, will never be known.

You are doing very well in League One but Roeder''s argument is that you would still be in the Championship and not bothered about the FA Cup until Round Three.  Personally I think the biggest risk was in firing Roeder, not in hiring Gunn - again no one will ever know but I certainly don''t think it as straightforward as some would claim.

[/quote]

I believe the sacking of Roeder was reactionary. I got in trouble on here for saying it was ‘fan power’ that did for him but I believe it was. The writing was on the wall following the AGM last November when Roeder seemed intent on going head to head with fans from the off. It appeared to me that he was a man on a mission that night.  And that mission was to put any opinionated fans “firmly in their place”. The board were quite obviously embarrassed by a lot of this and many of the ordinary shareholders enraged. I have to say it didn’t bother me too much but I did think at the time that he would have to produce results to get away with it. If we were winning fans would excuse it but embarrassing defeats would bring it all back to haunt him. Well that FA Cup defeat by Charlton, the poor attendance, and the protests afterwards all helped the board into what can only be described as a bit of a knee jerk sacking.

 

In one of Worthy’s public criticisms of the board he accused them of being reactive rather than proactive and I think that was certainly the case here. As you say Cam it appears that they pulled the trigger on Roeder without having a clue what was to follow. They hadn’t even considered Gunn at that time as the approach to the Irish FA proved. But to be fair I’m still pretty sure that they were only going to offer Worthy a caretaker role while they “carefully selected” the next manager. However I’m also sure they would have loved a successful run of results that could have “forced their hand”. When the Worthy thing didn’t work out and with time running out Gunny got the call. The proactive thing to have done would have been to have a fully worked out alternative before letting the axe fall on Roeder. While I’m allowed to mention Worthy I’ll just add that I also believed the board were concerned that the players could end up playing in an atmosphere of protest like Worthy’s teams had to in his last year or so here. I’m sure if they’d had their time over they’d have ended Worthy’s tenure sooner. I’m pretty sure they learned that lesson from those days.

 

I think Roeder may well have kept us up last season. After January he may have managed to get hold of another  Ched Evans or Leroy Lita. But that “cleverer than the rest “ policy that he dreamed up alongside Munby and Doncaster would have left us in an awful position this season and to my mind relegation certainties.

 

 

 

 

 

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I don''t think there can be any dispute that it was a knee jerk reaction and a terribly bad decision - you could argue as bad as appointing BG. Logic went out of the window here.   If they had given Roeder till the end of the season they would have had months to find a successor.  But, as we know, none of us can rewind what might have been because they "chose a different route" as Roeder puts it.

I suppose if you get promotion this season the whole thing will be more or less forgotten but if you have the misfortune to get stuck in this League for a couple more seasons I suspect the subject may be raised in the future.  I still think it probably the most cackhanded decision of the previous Board and effectively they got away with it because fans disliked Roeder.  Truth is that Roeder was no more contemptuous of fans than Clough was - the big difference, of course, is that Cloughie delivered success and his lambasting of the loyal supporters was accepted as coming from a man "who was a bit of a character."

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Cam - That Clough point was made that night at the AGM. And that''s what I meant by him having to produce results to get away with it. But results were poor and Roeder was becoming a hate figure for the fans. I believe Roeders relationship with the fans was actually given as a reason for his sacking at the time by Doncaster. This was what first brought me to ask if he was sacked because of "fan power".

I honestly don''t see Roeder as anything other than a "short term fix" manager and while it''s possible he could have kept us up last season those failed "cleverer than the rest"  policies would have left us needing huge investment to have a squad capable of staying in the Championship this season.

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Cam - That Clough point was made that night at the AGM. And that''s what I meant by him having to produce results to get away with it. But results were poor and Roeder was becoming a hate figure for the fans. I believe Roeders relationship with the fans was actually given as a reason for his sacking at the time by Doncaster. This was what first brought me to ask if he was sacked because of "fan power".

I honestly don''t see Roeder as anything other than a "short term fix" manager and while it''s possible he could have kept us up last season those failed "cleverer than the rest"  policies would have left us needing huge investment to have a squad capable of staying in the Championship this season.

 

[/quote]

No disagreement at all but here is another question: assuming you do make it back to the Championship next season how many of your current squad would keep you in the Championship and will huge investment be needed to do so?  It''s the falling out I think that is the problem...............

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[quote user="Camuldonum"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Cam - That Clough point was made that night at the AGM. And that''s what I meant by him having to produce results to get away with it. But results were poor and Roeder was becoming a hate figure for the fans. I believe Roeders relationship with the fans was actually given as a reason for his sacking at the time by Doncaster. This was what first brought me to ask if he was sacked because of "fan power".

I honestly don''t see Roeder as anything other than a "short term fix" manager and while it''s possible he could have kept us up last season those failed "cleverer than the rest"  policies would have left us needing huge investment to have a squad capable of staying in the Championship this season.

 

[/quote]

No disagreement at all but here is another question: assuming you do make it back to the Championship next season how many of your current squad would keep you in the Championship and will huge investment be needed to do so?  It''s the falling out I think that is the problem...............

[/quote]

I don''t know Cam. It depends on what standard the Championship is. But what Roeder never had was a team. A team can be stonger than the individual parts.

But don''t assume anything[;)]

 

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Bravo Nutty & Cam!I actually think this squad could (just about) hack it in the Champ. I doubt if they''d do better than mid-table, but - as long as Lambert is manager - they''d have enough grit & gumption to survive.I think the whole attitude has changed; following relegation, the squad behaved like it it was all a bad dream, like they''d wake up & find themselves back in the Prem. where they rightfully belonged. That''s gone. I think the enthusiasm, energy & commitment of the youth players has played a big factor. This is their big chance & they''re going after it.A couple of bad injuries (especially Holt & Hooly) would cause problems. But there is a whole lot more resiliance throughout the team now.

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Fair play to Gunny, though to be fair with all his contacts and his name he was always likely to slip into some cushy executive job before too long!

 

As for his credentials as a football manager - well we''ll never know, but as much as I was disgusted yb the way he was treated I''m chuffed we replaced him with Lambert!

 

As for those questioning Roeder - get real!

 

The Ipswich Derby game gave him a month longer than he''d otherwaise would of had, he''d long lost the crowd and judghing by results leading up to and including that dismal cup defeat to Charlton he''d also losrt the team!

 

I think its more likely we''d of been relegated if he''d of stayed and plus their''d of been much unrest amongst the crowd!

 

Roeder was an old has been (or more precise never was!) of a manager who was only to happy to go along with Doncasters policy of not signing players on long term deals which led to the disjointed squad of last year made up of costly loan players who lacked the edge that came from being permanant Norwich players.

 

Also a football manager has to have people skills, motivational skills and not make tactical decisions based upon personal dislikes - Roeder didn''t fall into any of these categories!

 

I still maintain that in his 1st season with us when he took over from Peter Grant that if he''d of stuck with the team line up and shape that went unbeaten for 13 games then we could of snuck in the play offs that season!

 

How anyone can give Roeder any credit when you look closely at all of the facts I find totally bemusing!

 

As for having a lack of funds aparently the loans were more costly than most fans think and look at us now with Lambert and hes not got a lot to play with!

 

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You make some good points Grantroederdisaster. I certainly agree that it wasn''t lack of funds. It was this "cleverer than the rest" policy that they cooked up that ultimately got us relegated. It certainly wasn''t cheap though. By all accounts we had a player budget of 8.5m while Wolves was 9.5m.

But I still don''t think we had anything to gain in sacking Roeder without an alternative. And who''s to say that he wouldn''t have found another Ched Evans or Leroy Lita to save the day.

Cam - other clubs that managed to return after falling out and have managed to establish themselves back in the Champs. QPR, Sheffield Wed, Barnsley and Nottingham Forest.

 

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[quote user="grantroederdisaster"]

As for his credentials as a football manager - well we''ll never know, but as much as I was disgusted yb the way he was treated I''m chuffed we replaced him with Lambert!

As for those questioning Roeder - get real!

I think its more likely we''d of been relegated if he''d of stayed and plus their''d of been much unrest amongst the crowd!

Also a football manager has to have people skills, motivational skills and not make tactical decisions based upon personal dislikes - Roeder didn''t fall into any of these categories!

How anyone can give Roeder any credit when you look closely at all of the facts I find totally bemusing!

 

[/quote]Agree with all your points Grantroeder 100%. At the risk of hijacking this thread - I am bemused that when the Board took decisive action over Roeder they get accused of kneejerking but when they sit and wait (Worthington) they are accused of dalliance. IMO Roeder could not manage full stop. (On second thoughts, maybe he knew how to manage journalists). Left to it he would have totally destroyed the club. Martin, Lappin and Spillane were discarded rather than managed when we were desperately short of players. Loan players were incredibly costly in fees and wages when money was short. Roeder could learn a lot by shadowing Lambert for a few weeks. Gunn was not a success and may indeed have been the wrong choice - but he was dismissed too soon to have the absolute failure tag slapped on him (some decent signings, some worthwhile repatriations and a good pre-season). The Board should be applauded IMO for 1) sacking Roeder; 2) appointing Lambert and 3) sacking Gunn - in that order. Gunn may or may not become a good football maneger in the future but right now I am thankful for all he did for the club as a player and a senior official and most of his signings this season. I am delighted he is getting on with the rest of his life and wish him the very best.

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[quote user="Camuldonum"]

I don''t think there can be any dispute that it was a knee jerk reaction and a terribly bad decision - you could argue as bad as appointing BG. Logic went out of the window here.   If they had given Roeder till the end of the season they would have had months to find a successor.  But, as we know, none of us can rewind what might have been because they "chose a different route" as Roeder puts it.

[/quote]Sorry to labour this one - but how can sacking Roeder be any more reactionary than sacking Gunn? They were both justifiable executive decisions at the time (even if I have more sympathy with one than the other). The players did not want to play for Roeder and there was a view that appointing any manager would lift a weight off their shoulders and achieve better results. It didn''t work out but no-one can prove that Roeder would have kept us up. If it was wrong to get rid of him, how come he has not been snapped up since?

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Gunn really shouldn''t have taken the Norwich job in the first place. He obviously likes it in Norwich which is why he''s taken a job in Norfolk rather than try and get something at another football club. Ken Brown warned him off the job at the time and I''m not surprised. Even if he''d done okay he would have been sacked eventually (it happens to everyone) and then he''d no longer havea  job with the club he loves.

The sensible thing for him to do would have been to accept the caretaker role for the rest of the season and then give up when we were relegated. There would have been no animosity towards Gunn and he may have even been able to get a job back at the club.

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I can''t speak for Cam Binky but I''ll stand by what I said. I believe sacking Roeder when they did was a knee jerk reaction by the board. I have already explained my reasons and will do so again. I see it as a knee jerk reaction because they had no alternative plan in place. We had an important game four days later and no idea who was going to manage the team. We know this for a fact because of the contact made to the Irish FA. It was yet another reactionary football decision. The proactive thing to have done would surely have been to have an alternative lined up. That Charlton game told us nothing new to cause such a knee jerk reaction did it?

 

Now to compare this with Gunn''s sacking is chalk and cheese I''m afraid. The Gunn sacking was a different board and I believe they already had decided on his replacement. Surely it''s the CE who advises on these decisions. It seems fans understand such things when it suits them. It seems that Smith & Jones are absolved in any credit for the hiring of Lambert so in turn should be absolved of all the blame for sacking Roeder. Different boards where it now seems that we are much more proactive in our decisions.

 

I have met Gunny a few times and I wish him well. To use the argument that he is now working outside football as proof that he was no good in football is blinkered. There is no proof that Gunny has ever even applied for another job in football. A man only has one life and he makes decisions on his future based on what is right for himself and his family from the options available at the time. The same with Roeder though. This thing about him not being snapped up since works exactly the same way. And dare I say it Worthy, who was recognised as a good bet by Milan Mandaric to save Leicester from relegation and since then has been managing his country quite successfully. These career choices were no doubt right for Worthy and his family at the time.

 

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[quote user="nutty nigel"]
I have met Gunny a few times and I wish him well. To use the argument that he is now working outside football as proof that he was no good in football is blinkered. There is no proof that Gunny has ever even applied for another job in football. A man only has one life and he makes decisions on his future based on what is right for himself and his family from the options available at the time. The same with Roeder though. This thing about him not being snapped up since works exactly the same way. And dare I say it Worthy, who was recognised as a good bet by Milan Mandaric to save Leicester from relegation and since then has been managing his country quite successfully. These career choices were no doubt right for Worthy and his family at the time.

 
[/quote]Nutty - understand your points but nothing will convince me it was wrong to sack Roeder. On the contrary. Somewhere buried on this board are posts from me in support of Roeder simply because I am rarely convinced sacking is the right option and will necessarily bring about anyone better (ha!). But it had gone too far for me - just wasn''t enjoying watching a collection of individuals pretending to be a "team". Yes, ideally a replacement should have been ready but I think the idea of Gunn in as caretaker and GR out was absolutely right. I felt like we had been given our club back - something one of the journalists said at the time (Adam Aiken?).Wasn''t aware that anyone had suggested the "working outside football" argument as proof of Gunn''s inadequacy (bold type above) but if so then I agree it is blinkered. But surely the same cannot be said of GR? If he was any good, wouldn''t he be back in football now? Despite all the ill feeling towards Gunn I think there is a valid argument that he was not given enough time. Also an equally valid argument that he could not be given any more time. But I really cannot see how GR could plead that he should have been given another day. (Would love to hear some of the player''s views on that - other than Messrs Fotheringham & Pattison that is!)

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[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Camuldonum"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

They are good points Tangie. And I doubt there''s many would argue. I can understand Gunny being caretaker after Roeder was sacked. I can just about see the logic in giving him, with Crook and Butterworth, ''til the end of last season. The other two are experienced football manager/coaches. And also the playerswere apparently in favour. But to be reappointed after managing an awful and mostly toothless relegation defied belief.

I often wonder why these obvious football mistakes rarely get a mention when the board are attacked. I daresay that come the AGM folk will be falling over themselves to ask pointless questions about investment based on rumour and supposition. I may well work out a question asking the reasons for Gunns appointment after relegation. Although I agree that we finally seem to have the right manager for where we are now I would love to know the thinking behind the decision to appoint Gunny in May.

 

[/quote]

All this debate seems, this end, to emanate from something that appears to be rarely discussed : the actual wisdom of sacking Roeder in the first place.  Why this has fallen off the radar is beyond me.

History can tell you that appointing Gunny was a mistake but it might equally tell you that sacking Roeder falls into the same category except that no one can do a rewind with Roeder.

Jury out I think.  Fired after a meaningless FA Cup game with no one waiting in the wings to take over, no one lined up, no one approached.  Fired when the transfer door was sliding shut at a rate of knots (and PS no one rang from Norwich rang Boothroyd).

Cut to a WTF do we do now situation.  Well, ring up the Northern Ireland manager in downtown North Norfolk and suggests he does a job share between an international job and Norwich City.  No go?  Or as Nigel so eloquently put it: "What a ridiculous idea."

Common sense would tell you H v Charlton to mark the Manager''s card and if he took you into relegation then it is goodbye.  Roeder claims - as he would - that he would have kept you in the Championship but as you did not persist until the end of last season that, also, will never be known.

You are doing very well in League One but Roeder''s argument is that you would still be in the Championship and not bothered about the FA Cup until Round Three.  Personally I think the biggest risk was in firing Roeder, not in hiring Gunn - again no one will ever know but I certainly don''t think it as straightforward as some would claim.

[/quote]

I believe the sacking of Roeder was reactionary. I got in trouble on here for saying it was ‘fan power’ that did for him but I believe it was. The writing was on the wall following the AGM last November when Roeder seemed intent on going head to head with fans from the off. It appeared to me that he was a man on a mission that night.  And that mission was to put any opinionated fans “firmly in their place”. The board were quite obviously embarrassed by a lot of this and many of the ordinary shareholders enraged. I have to say it didn’t bother me too much but I did think at the time that he would have to produce results to get away with it. If we were winning fans would excuse it but embarrassing defeats would bring it all back to haunt him. Well that FA Cup defeat by Charlton, the poor attendance, and the protests afterwards all helped the board into what can only be described as a bit of a knee jerk sacking.

 

In one of Worthy’s public criticisms of the board he accused them of being reactive rather than proactive and I think that was certainly the case here. As you say Cam it appears that they pulled the trigger on Roeder without having a clue what was to follow. They hadn’t even considered Gunn at that time as the approach to the Irish FA proved. But to be fair I’m still pretty sure that they were only going to offer Worthy a caretaker role while they “carefully selected” the next manager. However I’m also sure they would have loved a successful run of results that could have “forced their hand”. When the Worthy thing didn’t work out and with time running out Gunny got the call. The proactive thing to have done would have been to have a fully worked out alternative before letting the axe fall on Roeder. While I’m allowed to mention Worthy I’ll just add that I also believed the board were concerned that the players could end up playing in an atmosphere of protest like Worthy’s teams had to in his last year or so here. I’m sure if they’d had their time over they’d have ended Worthy’s tenure sooner. I’m pretty sure they learned that lesson from those days.

 

I think Roeder may well have kept us up last season. After January he may have managed to get hold of another  Ched Evans or Leroy Lita. But that “cleverer than the rest “ policy that he dreamed up alongside Munby and Doncaster would have left us in an awful position this season and to my mind relegation certainties.

 

 

 

 

 

[/quote]

I have to stick with knee jerk reaction, too, because you cannot run a business in that way and while football may be a "special" sort of business it is still a business and there is every indication that the decision to get rid of a key executive was completely unplanned.  Anyone in business, modest or substantial, will say you cannot do that without putting many things at risk, including the stability of the company.   If Roeder had been kept on it would have given the club months to plan a successor rather than being left in what increasingly appeared to be a state of desperation - even leaving aside the barmy approach to Northern Ireland they left themselves without a Manager or the proper time to appoint one before the transfer window slammed shut.

 

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well he signed a quality striker of which no manager has done for a few seasons .who is now leading scorer in our division before his sacking. this season he lost one game that was colchester .

we did not lose a game with the team he put in place untill that dredfull opening game. this includes all pre-season games .gunn took over roeders loan failures with no money to spend last season his back was firmly against the wall . i think the team needed to gell which has been proven as none of the players we have now were signed by lambert .to sack someone after winning away from home 4-0 after that defeat showed the players we have have strong charactor .which once again is showing now .one game is not enough time to judge someones ability . and you cant blame him for last season  that was roeders loan policy that got us in the mess to start with .with players comming in and out all season the team did not have any stability what so ever .even the players said that .

 

 

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