Portsmouth, Newcastle & Hull

[shefcanary 2,402]

Just been on Beeb sports pages and three stories all connected about football finances. One club has a foreign investor yet has been banned from making transfers (Pompey); one is a club that was up for sale but they can''t find anyone to buy them, despite having potential of 50K plus fans every game (Newcastle); and the thrid seems to have gambled all on Premiership survival and the auditors have not been able to reach a conclusion on going concern (Hull).

I know this won''t go down well with plenty of people on this Board, but I''ll pose the question just to see if views have changed recently, but better the Devil You Know?

[norfolkchance1 0]

Just reading the Hull story myself, not a financial expert but I don''t think it would please me if I was a Hull supporter.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/h/hull_city/8328913.stm

Link to story

[CanaryPurple 0]

The Hull case is particularly interesting , because it has been held up on this message board as an example of a medium-sized club doing much better than us. As that report makes clear, perhaps it isn''t after all an example we should be following.And Hull, it should be remembered, has not had to bear the expense of building or expanding a stadium, since the local council was good enough to provide one.

[paul moy 235]

Better the devil you know that endeavours to run our club on a sustainable basis, rather than having somebody running a club for short-term glory and medium-term disaster. I was only reading about Reading yesterday, a club that has come down to earth with a massive bump, having had to have a firesale of all of its best players since relegation from the Prem two seasons ago. They have not won a home game since January and are heading for even more financial disaster if relegated again. I''m hoping for the day which surely cannot be far off whereby clubs have to run themselves sustainably based on their turnover and development of home-grown players.         

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="paul moy"]Better the devil you know that endeavours to run our club on a sustainable basis, rather than having somebody running a club for short-term glory and medium-term disaster. I was only reading about Reading yesterday, a club that has come down to earth with a massive bump, having had to have a firesale of all of its best players since relegation from the Prem two seasons ago. They have not won a home game since January and are heading for even more financial disaster if relegated again. I''m hoping for the day which surely cannot be far off whereby clubs have to run themselves sustainably based on their turnover and development of home-grown players.         [/quote]

That will only happen when the players start being realistic about salary scales.

That wont happen until a few Prem clubs start to falter (Portsmouth, Hull, are a start)

We can but hope this may be the begining

[norfolkchance1 0]

I would hate to be a Portsmouth fan at the moment the club doesn''t look like a model for stability, should be a valuable lesson to some people on here who believe that Delia should sell to the first person who comes waving a chequebook.

Portsmouth, West Ham, Leeds, Hull, Newcastle - several examples of clubs who in varying ways have lived a dream which hasn''t lasted. Lets not join them.

I agree I''ve been on the case of the board with certain decisions most notably giving Gunn the job permanently but I do think they have Norwich City''s interest at heart.

[norfolkchance1 0]

*Sorry in case of Hull has doubts (not hasn''t lasted)

[Bill 1,788]

I think it''s the use of the word ''investor'' that throws most. The dodgy characters hanging round Pompey have little other interest than profiting from the sale of the ground.

Fans on here have often bleated about the board not '' showing ambition'' when what they mean is that it hasn''t found some method of borrowing against future income under the delusion that league positions and income remain fixed as do player contracts.

The final warning about clubs living beyond their means should be be taken on board by every fan. As should the understanding that when a club takes over the remaining part of a player''s contract from another club it is not a transfer fee.

Yes the wages and agent''s fees need to be drastically cut.

Expect a few more clubs to admit that they are I the same position. If anyone thought that Hull''s meteoric rise was do to other club''s not having their ''ambition'' should take a long and hard look at their plight ........................ or a few mile down the A140.

[nutty nigel 7,531]

Well eventually clubs will fold. Whether it''s any of these three or others in the future. It will happen because the money that used to circulate around the clubs through transfer fees now leaves the game in the pockets of players and their agents. At the end of the day football clubs have to sustain themselves. Most of the benefactors don''t really finance them they just increase the debt. yet still posters on this board are envious of those clubs and say Delia''s an utter disgrace.

Back in the 80''s and early 90''s this club had great success as a selling club. We sold players and replaced them with two or three new ones. We concentrated on our academy to bring in youngsters from all over the country and sold them to finance the football club. I started a thread a few weeks ago about how football has changed and how it''s so difficult for us to replicate that succes but some of the usual suspects on here refused to entertain it making out I had some sort of agenda.

It''s all very well benchmarking days gone by and setting targets for where each club should be based on how they performed in a totally different set of circumstances. But it''s quite another thing getting the outside finance needed to get there. Despite what some would have you believe very few rich people hand over their fortunes to give us fans a succesfull football club. All you Marcus Evans lovers out there need to realise that Delia Smith is one of the few football club owners who genuinely does care for their club and it''s supporters.

 

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Well eventually clubs will fold. Whether it''s any of these three or others in the future. It will happen because the money that used to circulate around the clubs through transfer fees now leaves the game in the pockets of players and their agents. At the end of the day football clubs have to sustain themselves. Most of the benefactors don''t really finance them they just increase the debt. yet still posters on this board are envious of those clubs and say Delia''s an utter disgrace.

Back in the 80''s and early 90''s this club had great success as a selling club. We sold players and replaced them with two or three new ones. We concentrated on our academy to bring in youngsters from all over the country and sold them to finance the football club. I started a thread a few weeks ago about how football has changed and how it''s so difficult for us to replicate that succes but some of the usual suspects on here refused to entertain it making out I had some sort of agenda.

It''s all very well benchmarking days gone by and setting targets for where each club should be based on how they performed in a totally different set of circumstances. But it''s quite another thing getting the outside finance needed to get there. Despite what some would have you believe very few rich people hand over their fortunes to give us fans a succesfull football club. All you Marcus Evans lovers out there need to realise that Delia Smith is one of the few football club owners who genuinely does care for their club and it''s supporters.

 

[/quote]

Lets have a rousing three cheers for Delia and her magnanimous sponsorship of our entertainment.

Hip Hip No?

God it really does not get much worse.

The debt stands at 20+million we are in the third division and still..................

Carry on Nutty you just missed mentioning Worthy then to have had a full hand!

[nutty nigel 7,531]

[quote user="The Butler"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Well eventually clubs will fold. Whether it''s any of these three or others in the future. It will happen because the money that used to circulate around the clubs through transfer fees now leaves the game in the pockets of players and their agents. At the end of the day football clubs have to sustain themselves. Most of the benefactors don''t really finance them they just increase the debt. yet still posters on this board are envious of those clubs and say Delia''s an utter disgrace.

Back in the 80''s and early 90''s this club had great success as a selling club. We sold players and replaced them with two or three new ones. We concentrated on our academy to bring in youngsters from all over the country and sold them to finance the football club. I started a thread a few weeks ago about how football has changed and how it''s so difficult for us to replicate that succes but some of the usual suspects on here refused to entertain it making out I had some sort of agenda.

It''s all very well benchmarking days gone by and setting targets for where each club should be based on how they performed in a totally different set of circumstances. But it''s quite another thing getting the outside finance needed to get there. Despite what some would have you believe very few rich people hand over their fortunes to give us fans a succesfull football club. All you Marcus Evans lovers out there need to realise that Delia Smith is one of the few football club owners who genuinely does care for their club and it''s supporters.

 

[/quote]

Lets have a rousing three cheers for Delia and her magnanimous sponsorship of our entertainment.

Hip Hip No?

God it really does not get much worse.

The debt stands at 20+million we are in the third division and still..................

Carry on Nutty you just missed mentioning Worthy then to have had a full hand!

[/quote]

So would you prefer we''d been like Hull as suggested by others on here?

 

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="The Butler"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Well eventually clubs will fold. Whether it''s any of these three or others in the future. It will happen because the money that used to circulate around the clubs through transfer fees now leaves the game in the pockets of players and their agents. At the end of the day football clubs have to sustain themselves. Most of the benefactors don''t really finance them they just increase the debt. yet still posters on this board are envious of those clubs and say Delia''s an utter disgrace.

Back in the 80''s and early 90''s this club had great success as a selling club. We sold players and replaced them with two or three new ones. We concentrated on our academy to bring in youngsters from all over the country and sold them to finance the football club. I started a thread a few weeks ago about how football has changed and how it''s so difficult for us to replicate that succes but some of the usual suspects on here refused to entertain it making out I had some sort of agenda.

It''s all very well benchmarking days gone by and setting targets for where each club should be based on how they performed in a totally different set of circumstances. But it''s quite another thing getting the outside finance needed to get there. Despite what some would have you believe very few rich people hand over their fortunes to give us fans a succesfull football club. All you Marcus Evans lovers out there need to realise that Delia Smith is one of the few football club owners who genuinely does care for their club and it''s supporters.

 

[/quote]

Lets have a rousing three cheers for Delia and her magnanimous sponsorship of our entertainment.

Hip Hip No?

God it really does not get much worse.

The debt stands at 20+million we are in the third division and still..................

Carry on Nutty you just missed mentioning Worthy then to have had a full hand!

[/quote]

So would you prefer we''d been like Hull as suggested by others on here?

 

[/quote]

I don''t want us to be like anybody else.

DO DIFFERENT that''s the Norfolk way.

Before Hull it was Charlton and look where that got us, with them in Div 3.

I would like us to be the ones held up as the pinnacle and the model to follow.

To lead not flounder along on someone elses coat tails.

OK I can dream  can''t I?

[barclay seats 4849 0]

[quote user="The Butler"][quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="The Butler"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Well eventually clubs will fold. Whether it''s any of these three or others in the future. It will happen because the money that used to circulate around the clubs through transfer fees now leaves the game in the pockets of players and their agents. At the end of the day football clubs have to sustain themselves. Most of the benefactors don''t really finance them they just increase the debt. yet still posters on this board are envious of those clubs and say Delia''s an utter disgrace.

Back in the 80''s and early 90''s this club had great success as a selling club. We sold players and replaced them with two or three new ones. We concentrated on our academy to bring in youngsters from all over the country and sold them to finance the football club. I started a thread a few weeks ago about how football has changed and how it''s so difficult for us to replicate that succes but some of the usual suspects on here refused to entertain it making out I had some sort of agenda.

It''s all very well benchmarking days gone by and setting targets for where each club should be based on how they performed in a totally different set of circumstances. But it''s quite another thing getting the outside finance needed to get there. Despite what some would have you believe very few rich people hand over their fortunes to give us fans a succesfull football club. All you Marcus Evans lovers out there need to realise that Delia Smith is one of the few football club owners who genuinely does care for their club and it''s supporters.

 

[/quote]

Lets have a rousing three cheers for Delia and her magnanimous sponsorship of our entertainment.

Hip Hip No?

God it really does not get much worse.

The debt stands at 20+million we are in the third division and still..................

Carry on Nutty you just missed mentioning Worthy then to have had a full hand!

[/quote]

So would you prefer we''d been like Hull as suggested by others on here?

 

[/quote]

I don''t want us to be like anybody else.

DO DIFFERENT that''s the Norfolk way.

Before Hull it was Charlton and look where that got us, with them in Div 3.

I would like us to be the ones held up as the pinnacle and the model to follow.

To lead not flounder along on someone elses coat tails.

OK I can dream  can''t I?

[/quote]

 

I for one totally agree with the butler !

[CambridgeCanary 0]

Well Nutty, you and I will never agree about Worthy who I still see as a poor manager who had his five minutes of fame but i do agree wholeheartedly that the structure of football and the world have changed since our glory days.  

The old ways of doing things have gone.

Clubs can no longer compete at the top or near top on gate receipts and selling the odd home grown player.   I too bemoan our Club''s lack of progress and ambition but when others fall, and they will fall, we must ensure that we survive.   It may mean frustartions in the short term but there are no quick fixes.  

Of course we rather be Tottenham or West Brom but we do not want to be one of the half dozen or more on the brink,.  Survival is not a certainty as Bowker pointed out.  it must be a priority though.  To that extent, I agree entirely with Nutty.

[CanaryPurple 0]

Butler, do you have an argument with the following?

Smith and Jones (who, yes, have made some serious management mistakes)

know they need to be replaced in the medium- or long-term as owners,

because - in stark terms - they are running out of money.

Given the changing economics of football, the choice of to whom to sell

will probably be the single most important decision in the club''s

history. I cannot think of another so momentous.

The easiest thing in the world for S&J would be to snatch at the

first superficially attractive offer (see clubs listed elsewhere in

this thread, and others) and deeply regret it later. With the fans

regretting it just as much. And blaming S&J - "the owners who sold

us down the river."

If erring on the side of caution means waiting for the right offer and

S&J being owners for a while longer then that is a price worth

paying to try to guarantee long-term stability.I don''t know if that''s Nutty''s attitude. But it is mine.

[nutty nigel 7,531]

But you don''t want to be like us. Like we are now. Well I have news for you... neither do I. In truth we want to be like we were in the 80''s and early 90''s but we''re not. Some blame Smith others, of whcih I''m one, blame where football is at. But the whole point I continually try to make is that I don''t believe the place we were exists anymore. We can''t do anything about it though. We could just whistle a happy little tune, wish for better days or live in the past. I expect I''m about to bring on another dose of anti Delia bashing but I''ll say it anyway - I don''t believe it''s Delia''s fault that our club are not where you and I want them to be.

Anyway, back to the point about ownership, investment and debt :-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/leagues/premierleague/portsmouth/6452881/Portsmouth-handed-transfer-embargo-by-Premier-League-until-further-notice.html

The latest twist comes amid a week of claim and counter-claim over an interview that Faraj gave to a Saudi newspaper. Faraj only became Portsmouth owner earlier this month following Sulaiman al-Fahim’s bizarre 41-day stint at the helm.

However, the depth of Portsmouth’s financial difficulties became apparent when it emerged that acquiring a 90 per cent stake had cost him nothing as it simply involved taking over the club’s debt.

 

 

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="CanaryPurple"]Butler, do you have an argument with the following?

Smith and Jones (who, yes, have made some serious management mistakes) know they need to be replaced in the medium- or long-term as owners, because - in stark terms - they are running out of money.

Given the changing economics of football, the choice of to whom to sell will probably be the single most important decision in the club''s history. I cannot think of another so momentous.

The easiest thing in the world for S&J would be to snatch at the first superficially attractive offer (see clubs listed elsewhere in this thread, and others) and deeply regret it later. With the fans regretting it just as much. And blaming S&J - "the owners who sold us down the river."

If erring on the side of caution means waiting for the right offer and S&J being owners for a while longer then that is a price worth paying to try to guarantee long-term stability.

I don''t know if that''s Nutty''s attitude. But it is mine.[/quote]

If erring on the side of caution means waiting and that wait does NOT pile more debt and more relegations and more disasterous "outside"

land purchasing. We also keep them away from ANY decision relating to football matters, then yes I agree.

Leave them to sell to the right person(s) at a price and on terms acceptable to them.

We have no choice that''s what they will do anyway. All we can hope to do is try and limit further damage.

But asking me to thank them for sponsoring my football and praise the way they saved our club that is another ball game altogether!

[CanaryPurple 0]

[quote user="The Butler"]

[quote user="CanaryPurple"]Butler, do you have an argument with the following?Smith and Jones (who, yes, have made some serious management mistakes) know they need to be replaced in the medium- or long-term as owners, because - in stark terms - they are running out of money.Given the changing economics of football, the choice of to whom to sell will probably be the single most important decision in the club''s history. I cannot think of another so momentous.The easiest thing in the world for S&J would be to snatch at the first superficially attractive offer (see clubs listed elsewhere in this thread, and others) and deeply regret it later. With the fans regretting it just as much. And blaming S&J - "the owners who sold us down the river."If erring on the side of caution means waiting for the right offer and S&J being owners for a while longer then that is a price worth paying to try to guarantee long-term stability.I don''t know if that''s Nutty''s attitude. But it is mine.[/quote]

If erring on the side of caution means waiting and that wait does NOT pile more debt and more relegations and more disasterous "outside"

land purchasing. We also keep them away from ANY decision relating to football matters, then yes I agree.

Leave them to sell to the right person(s) at a price and on terms acceptable to them.

We have no choice that''s what they will do anyway. All we can hope to do is try and limit further damage.

But asking me to thank them for sponsoring my football and praise the way they saved our club that is another ball game altogether!

[/quote]Bravo! We are (since I have NEVER asked you or any other fan to thank them or praise them for anything at all) pretty much in accord. Now that wasn''t so hard, was it?!

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="CanaryPurple"][quote user="The Butler"]

[quote user="CanaryPurple"]Butler, do you have an argument with the following?

Smith and Jones (who, yes, have made some serious management mistakes) know they need to be replaced in the medium- or long-term as owners, because - in stark terms - they are running out of money.

Given the changing economics of football, the choice of to whom to sell will probably be the single most important decision in the club''s history. I cannot think of another so momentous.

The easiest thing in the world for S&J would be to snatch at the first superficially attractive offer (see clubs listed elsewhere in this thread, and others) and deeply regret it later. With the fans regretting it just as much. And blaming S&J - "the owners who sold us down the river."

If erring on the side of caution means waiting for the right offer and S&J being owners for a while longer then that is a price worth paying to try to guarantee long-term stability.

I don''t know if that''s Nutty''s attitude. But it is mine.[/quote]

If erring on the side of caution means waiting and that wait does NOT pile more debt and more relegations and more disasterous "outside"

land purchasing. We also keep them away from ANY decision relating to football matters, then yes I agree.

Leave them to sell to the right person(s) at a price and on terms acceptable to them.

We have no choice that''s what they will do anyway. All we can hope to do is try and limit further damage.

But asking me to thank them for sponsoring my football and praise the way they saved our club that is another ball game altogether!

[/quote]

Bravo! We are (since I have NEVER asked you or any other fan to thank them or praise them for anything at all) pretty much in accord. Now that wasn''t so hard, was it?![/quote]

But then I have never said anything different.

And don''t be so patronising or I will change my mind[:D]

[nutty nigel 7,531]

In this spirit of good will that has suddenly taken over the thread let me just say that I have never even hinted that Delia Smith saved the club. I used to believe that Geoffrey Watling did but I no longer believe that either. As for praise - well there''s a world of difference between praise and blame. But obviously there''s no difference to some because where as I don''t blame her I haven''t praised her... have I[:^)]

 

[;)]

 

[Lord Flashheart 0]

I don''t like this sudden wave of good will. It just isn''t Pink''Unesque. Get back to slagging eachother off before everybody starts being nice to eachother. [Y]

[norfolkchance1 0]

I think you have to build as a club slowly, one of the common factors with these clubs is that vast amounts were spent quickly in the case of Portsmouth and West Ham.

Take West Brom and Everton as examples of clubs that have done things differently, they make interesting comparisons.

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="Lord Flashheart"]I don''t like this sudden wave of good will. It just isn''t Pink''Unesque. Get back to slagging eachother off before everybody starts being nice to eachother. [Y]
[/quote]

Why don''t you mind your own business and P*** OFF[;)][:D]

[nutty nigel 7,531]

[quote user="The Butler"]

[quote user="Lord Flashheart"]I don''t like this sudden wave of good will. It just isn''t Pink''Unesque. Get back to slagging eachother off before everybody starts being nice to eachother. [Y]
[/quote]

Why don''t you mind your own business and P*** OFF[;)][:D]

[/quote]

[:D][Y]

 

[Lord Flashheart 0]

[quote user="The Butler"]

[quote user="Lord Flashheart"]I don''t like this sudden wave of good will. It just isn''t Pink''Unesque. Get back to slagging eachother off before everybody starts being nice to eachother. [Y][/quote]

Why don''t you mind your own business and P*** OFF[;)][:D]

[/quote]Nice one. [H][Y]

[Camuldonum 0]

And meanwhile:

 

http://www.thisishullandeastriding.co.uk/news/Undefined-Headline/article-1461607-detail/article.html

[Bill 1,788]

" ... but we do not want to be one of the half dozen or more on the brink,. "

HALF A DOZEN !!!!!!!!!

You clearly haven''t a clue what''s going on in football. The vast majority of clubs have unsustainable debts ie those that they are not meeting through current income streams.

I expect a fair few to fail or be ''restructured'' in the next few years.

And as with Brighton a fair few will learn what their supposed ''investors'' real interest was.

[Allez17 0]

Very much a case of ''be careful what you wish for''.

[shefcanary 2,402]

[quote user="Camuldonum"]

And meanwhile:

 

http://www.thisishullandeastriding.co.uk/news/Undefined-Headline/article-1461607-detail/article.html

[/quote]

Saw Phil Brown at Doncaster Races last friday, eve of a "must win" match against Pompey. Nothing against relaxing but this was about 3pm (and okay I was "networking" so can''t say too strongly he should have been at work!) and I would have thought he would have been working behind the scenes planning for the next day or at least on the phone looking for some new players to loan in, instead of swanning around with his wife and mates. I know footballers like the hosses but doesn''t give off the air of someone who is feeling under pressure or gives a toss!

[Mr.Carrow 376]

[quote user="City1st"]" ... but we do not want to be one of the half dozen or more on the brink,. " HALF A DOZEN !!!!!!!!! You clearly haven''t a clue what''s going on in football. The vast majority of clubs have unsustainable debts ie those that they are not meeting through current income streams. I expect a fair few to fail or be ''restructured'' in the next few years. And as with Brighton a fair few will learn what their supposed ''investors'' real interest was.[/quote]

Including us.  Now how did that happen?