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YankeeCanary

TRUE AMBITION - LONG TERM

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I know we are all excited now at how well our team is doing so I fully appreciate the timing on this thought may not be well received ( either by Norwich or Ipswich fans ) but here goes.
This message board is obviously a conduit to at least good fun and possibly constructive suggestions on how our team needs to show ambition. We all know what our ambition is for this season and perhaps next, although even next season is probably only in the planning stages. How ambitious do we want to be over the next 10-20 years. Do we want to participate on the European stage? Let''s take a look at Norwich and Ipswich over the past 50 years or so.
Number of times in the top division during past 50 seasons:
Norwich - 20 times
Ipswich - 26 times

Number of times in 12 seasons of the Premiership:
Norwich - 3 times
Ipswich - 5 times

While Ipswich has performed better overall in both categories and obviously have won a league championship one could objectively argue that both clubs have done reasonably well given the size of the city/town. However, if you were drawing the performance on a chart you would have to conclude that,if anything, it is becoming more difficult for these two teams to continue to achieve a consistent role in the top division. Indeed, given what has transpired during more recent times it is becoming increasingly difficult for even long-standing top division clubs to maintain a competitve role against the very top clubs in the country. None of this is new to us, of course, it''s just that there does not seem to be a lot of discussion on the table as to what to do about it. I BELIEVE THAT THIS REGION OF EAST ANGLIA DESERVES TO PLAY ON THE TOP STAGE OF FOOTBALL. We are not going to achieve that in all likelihood by squabbling over which player we can afford to bring in ( or not ) for several hundred thousand pounds. In the spirit of inviting good thoughts from all and sundry allow me to make a proposal which can then be critiqued, added to or replaced by even better thoughts.
I propose that the boards from both clubs form an exploratory team on the feasibility of a merger in the longer-term, encompassing a desire to build a 60-70,000 fan stadium to house ( for want of a name ) the East Anglian Crusaders. As all traffic planning is now aimed at diverting cars around cities and towns, selecting a site halfway between the two present clubs seems reasonable to ensure no more than a 1 hour journey for most fans. The stadium could be planned to house and be adjacent to other attractions so that there is a constant draw of people/income. Thoughts please?
For those of you that may doubt it, I bleed yellow and green BUT I fear the future trend line may not be kind to us over the longer term if, and only if, we have a desire to be really competitive in the top division ongoing. If that is not our objective, then there is nothing wrong with that either but then we should be realistic as to what can achieved over the longer term.

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You may understand stats very well but you have no understanding at all of football to come up with this birdbrained idea.

Norwich will NEVER merge with that scum waste of space down the road and no true fan would consider such a ridiculous idea.
Football is about passion for your club at all times, succesful or not and this overides any business models or sense of practicality

please put those efforts back into supporting Norwich as they prosper and praying that the blue and s**te drop down the league with Joe Royle''s career

(If your post was intended as a joke then I''ve seen better)

OTBC

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I am afraid Yankee Canary understands nothing about football supporters, the same birdbrained idea that made Wimbledon move to Milton Keynes. I would rather support Norwich in the Vauxhall Conference League than merge with Ipswich.

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Whaaaaaat!!!!! Never ever mate,bleed yellow and green like you say and you would not even consider it sounds like you belong at Portman road pal!

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To be honest I didn''t read YC original post too long got the gist by reading all the one liners. If it is a joke it is poor taste. But lets think I presume YC is some sort of colonial, therefore franchising is ingrained on your psyche. But if this is the best suggestion you can find to post, I suggest you need not bother, it has all the crassness expected of our American cousins.

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I agree with bushy, you support your club regardless of success, if all fans were just interested in is to see there team win all the time, only Man U and Arsenal would have any fans.

I have seen great times with City like the Uefa Cup, coming close to winning the premier league and I''ve seen bad times too.

You sometimes wish that City had more money or a bigger squad or that Roman Abramovic will get tired of Chelsea and buy a real football club like City BUT you never wish for City to no longer exsist.

Can''t imagine Rangers and Celtic would form as one club to try and get European success.

You support your team and take what you''re given, you might not always like what you see, but thats what supporting your team is all about

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What?? Let me get this right. You are proposing that at some time in the very near future, we shall all be sitting in a theme park somewhere near Diss to watch a franchise operation called the "East Anglian Crusaders"?

Yankee Canary, I trust your post is an elaborate attempt to wind us all up.

"Merge with Ipswich", indeed!

I''d rather chew me own foot off.



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Yeah nice one Yankee, didn''t think we were that close to April fools day though, cause you got to be having a flipping laugh, the thought of polluting our beloved club with scum makes me feel quite sick. No No No, never ever.

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Makes me laugh when I hear such vitriolic nonsence written by supposedly grown up human beings. When there became a wartime issue, Falklands, working back to the 1914 - 18 First world War. Did you lot think that there was a discriminatory process going on in the trenches we cant rescue a soldier if he''s from Ipswich, or vice versa. What pathetic people are you. After all its supposed to be a game of sport where supposedly the best team wins.

Perhaps we ought to have regular 10 year wars where one can get rid of some of that aggressive animal behaviour. I know that for myself I am passionate Norwich supporter but I can see good points from every team and applaud good football played by any team irrespective of where they may come from. There are times when my favourite team looses and I am fair minded enough to accept it if we play badly. Success for your club us what it is all about,

There is a degree of wisdom in what the man says, Increase the size and whereabouts of the venue and and the income of your club where you can attract the best players. European football is a more realistic possibility than it can ever be as single units housing if your lucky 25,000 supporters where yobbos chant childish slogans at one another. After another struggle to remain at a position 5 from the bottom of the premiership.

Put the totals together 50.0000 gates and a well placed business like investment. European football becomes a reality and the possibility of seeing the greatest players in your own Anglian county. Even the Anglian regiments were able to merge without much bother. They became well drilled group capable of taking on the best.

I fought in Second World war and was pleased to come from it alive and fought alongside practically every Nationality that can be mentioned of all colours, funnily enough I didnt think to ask if they came from Norwich or Ipswich. Or could we make the criteria even tighter and state only players from Norwich should represent Norwich City. No, in my 70 plus years i''ve had enough of discrimination of all sorts, ON the ball City.

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Beelsie, Sir.

It''s always a privilage to speak to a war veteran. Without men like you, we wouldn''t have the freedom to write inane ramblings here. However, I must respectfully point out that to compare regional football club rivalry to the horrors of World War 2 is slightly silly.

Best wishes

Andy

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It''s more like Sheffield Wed and United will merge ;)

Seriously the only two teams that are ever likely to do this are the Bristol teams as there is no / very little rivalry.

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I agree entirely with what Old Man Andy has said. We are forever indebted to the efforts made by those in both World Wars, but the comparison is little extreme. I appreciate a good piece of football by another team, as I''m sure many other fans on here do. It''s just that the club has a proud heritage, and no-one wants to see that go. I''m sure if you asked Ipswich fans the same thing, you''d probably get the same response. Yankee Canary''s suggestion is very business like, but football is a passionate sport, not just a business. The reason why Delia and Michael have pumped £10 million into the club since buying it? They love the club, and they want to see it succeed. They''re not in it to make a quick buck. To turn the club into some sort of emotionless money-making machine removes the passion for me. That''s all.

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there is absolutly no chance that this could and should happen,.......but if it did, rather than being called the east anglian crusaders or something else daft, we could take the first syllable from nor-wich and the last syllable from ips-wich and merge them together for a name! that would work.
i am sorry yankee, ridiculous idea, good of you to try and start a debate but the next thing you will be suggesting is moving an entire team to a different place entirely, or have welsh teams play in english leagues, or having a foreigner manage the national squad, or....err...hang on?!

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Andy, I agree with you that to make the comparison in that context is silly. To clarify my statement, I would say that to react to the originators proposal of making the "Anglian region''s football more of a well constructed attempt at success, by becoming more business like, and then backing the statement with a few, although sparse reasons for his ideas", in the way that some of our passionate club supporters did was just as silly. I think that M.UTD supporters are just as keen and loyal as ours and I bet that their board of directors in the last 20 years have not made one decision that does not have solid business reasons look at the selling strategy of recent times. When success is the motivator it is pie in the sky to believe that a catchment area such as ours here in Norfolk can ever be a serious Title or European challengers. However much all the contributors here would like it to be realism. It seems that however many foreigners are brought into such clubs at huge expense. Their die hard fans will always put their two fingers up to us at Norwich when the time comes that we attempt to knock them of their superior perch. However, Arsenal, Chelsea, Man UTD, Liverpool and the like have either generous sponsers and huge fan bases and find it almost possible to survive on the gate receipts. I don''t doubt our own committment or passion to success, but our location and limited fan base is seriously against it. Except perhaps in a successful F. A . cup run and I think I would settle for that and the revenue that it would generate. How about you? Regards Beelsie

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Admire you for coming on here to suggest this YC and it makes economic sense. But that''s the only sense it does make and i can''t ever see it happenin. The closest you could get to it would be a stadium share a la Inter/AC Milan at the San Siro.

And whoever said there is no rivalry between the two Bristol teams has absolutely no idea what they are talking about! That rivalry is as big as any in the country. It has gone off the boil a since Rovers slipped into Div 3 but it''s there all right!

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Hello again, Beelsie.

I must say that I''m becoming more and more convinced that the original post from "Yankee" that has started this discussion off is a complete wind-up, but you have raised some interesting points.

I do believe that NCFC is a big enough club to not only compete in the Premiership, but to succeed there. I look at Charlton as a similar size club to us, and what they have achieved since their promotion is an inspiration to all. Don''t forget, it was only ten years ago when we came ridiculously close to doing "the double". Of course, that was in the very first season of the Premiership, and before the avalanche of cash from Sky made the playing field very uneven indeed.

I sometimes wonder just what we could have achieved had we not been relegated just as the BIG money was starting to appear. Just our luck. Thanks a bunch, Robert Chase. But that''s another thread altogether!

As for our location and fan base, I happen to think that we have an enormous potential fanbase. Our location is a positive thing for us there, simply because the nearest rival club to us is over 40 miles away. And they''re liable to go belly up next summer anyway. There''s an awful lot of young people out there who have only become interested in football in the last few years (thanks to Euro 96, the massive hyping of the game that Sky does so well etc. etc.) and the only thing that has kept these potential new Norwich fans from flocking to Carrow Road instead of watching Beckham, Owen, Henry and Rooney etc. on the TV is the fact that their local club has been struggling in the Nationwide for nearly ten years.

Well, hopefully, that''s all about to change. Come next May, fingers crossed, Norwich City will once again be one of the "elite", with a 25,000 capacity ground. It will be packed full to the rafters every game, and if we can manage to emulate what Charlton have done (stay there!) I see no reason why this club couldn''t go on to do just what Delia said on Boxing Day...... "onwards and upwards!"

Happy New Year, Beelsie. I shall be raising my glass to an old soldier tomorrow night.

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yankee canary

i believe you are really the biggest wind up merchant of all time

merge with the scum, do us a favour, keep that sort of shit to yourself, god i know i was knackered last night, but did i fall asleep and wake up on April 1?

Thanks for the greatest laugh for ages

Ipswich can merge with colchester if they need it to survive, we need no one else

but thanks yankee for a laugh!!

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Excellent post from YC, thought provoking but utter nonsense! Obviously thinks Wimbledon in MK is a good idea.

Just like to pick up on something Beelsie mentioned- "it is pie in the sky to believe that a catchment area such as ours here in Norfolk can ever be a serious Title or European challengers". It is not so long ago that we went into April of a season with a chance of winning the title, the following season that same team were not disgraced in the San Siro and had chances to get the 2-0 they needed. Inter Milan went on to win the competition.

So it is possible and it is still possible. Although it seems the "smaller" clubs have no chance these days, who outside the big 3 of Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool have won the championship in the last 20 years? I can only think of Everton, Blackburn and Leeds. The "smaller" teams have always scrabbled around for the minor places. But we came out of nowhere with a largely home grown side of great skill, superb organisation and a great manager which all gelled together. I see no reason why the same can''t happen again whoever it is. Problem is these days the clubs get the Prem millions and go and spend them on overseas pensioners or second raters. They think that because they are not British they are better players. Should we go up and spend our money wisely on chaps who are prepared for a Monday night slog in Leicester or Bolton, you just never know............

Here''s to dreaming.

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Just a point about us challenging in the Premier League.

People are mentioning what we did 10 years and how well Charlton are doing at the moment. I think that if we put together a good side together again we could get into Europe again. However I doubt think any success we would have would be sustainable, there are plenty of teams over the past 10 years who have done well and then slipped into Div 1 and further. Norwich were in the Uefa Cup, as were Ipswich. Crystal Palace and Nottingham Forrest both finished 3rd in the Premier League. Sheffield Wednesday reached two cup finals in the same year, look where they are now, close to relegation to div 3.

Although clubs like City can have short-term success, I can''t see us year in and year out challenging for major trophies.

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I thought it was time I sign in again and advise as to my true intentions. I sincerely was not attempting to simply "wind people up" although I could see how the message could be perceived that way. However, I did have a motive that was not stated.

Over months of observing this message board it was clear to me that there were at least two camps of thought when it came to the ambition of our team. Some folks were supportive of the Norwich board and others were coming down hard on them and augmenting with statements like "the board needs to be ambitious and speculate to accumulate". Of course it’s always fun to tell others what to do with their money, particularly when you are not required to be accountable for the decision. Personally, I think the board has been doing a very good job in the past two or three seasons and I also think they knew exactly what they were trying to achieve with their latest signings.

But I digress. What I was interested in was finding out just how ambitious some of the fans think we should be and, more particularly, for them to put greater definition around that ambition as if they were in the role of the Norwich Board. In other words, what limits would you place on that ambition. Presumably, it would not end at the signing of Darren Huckerby. I appreciate some people want to engulf themselves in the fun of what is occurring with the team right now but that is more than adequately being covered on other threads. This is a different thread. For example, on Dec 28th Anderz posed a question on the thread “Planning For the Future” which has drawn very little response to date. And that’s only the short-term future. Action which is necessary over the coming months if Norwich are promoted (which looks increasingly likely given the mediocre performance of others ).

The most supportive response I received to my proposal came from someone in my age bracket. Thank you Beelsie, not for agreeing, because I was not seeking agreement, but for being prepared to look at a bigger picture. As to Old Man Andy ( not sure if you are in the same age bracket as Beelsie and I ), I must say that your reaction gave me the biggest belly aching laugh when you said "I''d rather chew me foot off".

What I really wanted was to challenge folks, particularly some of the younger fans, as to what you would do ( if you owned the team ) to enhance the ability of the Canaries to really be competitive in the Premier year on year over the next two decades. There must be some creative talent out there. Let’s hear some thoughts....it might be fun. We might even come up with something that can really influence the Board. While there was some good feedback re “the Charlton model” , with respect, it may be early days to use that as a panacea.

P.S.
I have been a joyful observer of this message board for the past several months before deciding to share some thoughts myself late in the year. I say joyful because whether we are Yankee or Canadian or any other kind of faraway Canaries we love the team and are green with envy at what you all are going through in Norfolk, particularly at this time. Wish we could be there with you. There are going to be some bumps and tough games ahead and I know that all those that are remote are there with you in spirit. I love and read the messages from all.

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"Onwards & Upwards" Andy that must always be the object however difficult it is considering the financial rewards that are demanded by the so called quality players. I noticed the money that was spent by Bobby Robson at Newcastle over the past few seasons £80,000,000. and the board are now demanding that more effort is put in by the players to justify that massive investment. I will now shoot myself in the foot to some degree by saying that it is not what you pay for the playing staff that leads to success, it is the effort put in by the players, for the team and supporters, and the management, that achieves the success that we all want. Thereby it is the judgement of people like Worthy who decide who they buy with our money. On a short interview, and it may be that footballers'' performances have been watched over a period to see if the fighting qualities exist in his character. He must show an attitude of never being beaten. If we can find eleven of those for our team then we are well on our way to emulating and surpassing Charlton Athletic. By saying this I am certainly not questioning the effort and committment that the boys are now showing, long may this go on. What frequently worries me is a reluctancy to make our defensive tackles further up the field, thereby defending too deep in my opinion. However I am thrilled to see our boys doing so well. The outcome of Saturdays game will be a measure of our development on the field and if successful the confidence boost will be enormous. I wish you Andy also, a happy New Year and to all the board subscribers as well. There is a good quality in the posts and the content makes for lively reading.

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Hi! Yankee, “Happy New Year” I must congratulate you on your summing up of the divided camps posting on the boards over the past few months. Some controversial, some humorous, and some you will have noticed, who got up my nose a little for being a bit over the top with the chosen language of the uncivilised. Passion for our team I can understand, but it is not necessary to abuse one another in print.
I must admit to a lack of bravery on my part for not posting something on similar lines. For I have, on passing the previous Norfolk cricket ground at Lakenham on the main outer ring road, wondered why no one on the NCFC board had considered the prospect of buying it and building a whole new 40.000 seater stadium at this venue, were it for sale. Traffic congestion etc. would be minimal and the whole question of access and regular use for the facility would be greatly improved. I would think that the further release for development of the valuable Carrow Road site would add considerably to our clubs financial liquidity and also help our prospects as a force to be reckoned with for a long stay in the Premiership.

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Good idea Beelsie. I wonder what the economics are and whether the Board have considered other sites in terms of long-term plans?
Another thing I was wondering in terms of player development and perhaps some other posters could provide insight....nice to see that the Norwich Academy is on the right track in terms of youngster development. Is there any kind of program by English clubs to have youngsters spend time in other countries developing skills? I personally don''t like the Italian style although every style has it''s day with the right players. What was going through my mind was what I have observed on travels in Brazil at the sheer skills being developed by young Brazilian boys. I know there would be a lot to think about, but a lot of corporations have employees based in Brazil and there are English speaking communities to help for short-term stays. Imagine the excitement and competition that would be in place for example for 4-6 youngsters out of the Academy ( say 14 - 16 years old ) annually ( or bi-annually ) to spend a school season in Brazil with full exposure to comparable soccer leagues. Possibly could be done on an exchange basis to minimize costs, although chaperoning could be accomodated. I know one can think of lots of obstacles but, given the amount of money that is risked in football anyway, this could be a good investment.

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