Unrivalled Support...But It Hasn't Always Been That Way

[Farkes The Herald Angels 0]

I remember in the dark (actually, quite happy) past that when we were in the old First Division at one point we were getting crowds in the mid teens (I''ve got a vague recollection of a Monday night QPR game attracting 13,000 sometime in the late 70''s or early 80''s.....). The Independent once described our away support as travelling to opposition grounds in an MG Midget (all of us that is, not each of us). I remember doing a Conga at Derby on Boxing Day in the 70''s. The only reason we could do this was there were so few of us there. But we won and it was bloody marvellous, despite the rain (or maybe we drew, but it seemed like we won...[:D]

Anyway, my question is this. Why have we gone from being, at best, an averagely supported team in the top division, to being a team with unrivalled support two divisions lower down? And even having the best support in The Championship (based on percentages).

We clearly have been average to awful in recent years, but our support seems to have increased / held up over the last ten years and is without equal for a club of our size.

Some may say we''re a club whose supporters are blind and unthinkingly supportive (which is nonsense, in my view), but it hasn''t always been this way.

Carlisle supporters even suggest that there''s nothing better to do in Norwich that go to watch the football, so it''s not surprising we get high crowds.

Honestly, I''ve no idea

What do you all think?

[Gingerpele 0]

Football is more popular now?and we are really the only team in norfolk?more poeple live in Norwich?anything like that.....

[Dave Backham 0]

We''ve all been brainwashed?

Seriously though I think a lot of this comes down to Andy Cullen (now of MK Dons) and his introduction of ''affordable family football'' as a policy to keep ticket prices low and encourage a new generation of supporters with ''kids for a quid'' etc.

Of course the fact that we have so many season-ticket holders means they''ve paid in advance so they have to come whatever division we''re in.

So we now have sell-out crowds, but probably the same in gate revenue we''ve always had.

It does mean that we all support our local team - rather than the team that''s flavour of the month in the Premier League, mostly Man Utd, Arsenal or Chelsea.

Glory hunters the lot of them.

Dave.

[Farkes The Herald Angels 0]

We''ve always been the only League team in Norfolk and ''football is more popular'' doesn''t explain wht Blackburn, Bolton and Wigan have wide spaces of empty seats and we don''t....

[WeAreYellows49 0]

Cheap ST''s and too many kids for a quid maybe

[Farkes The Herald Angels 0]

Dave

I know we have lots of season ticket holders who pay in advance, but other clubs supporters have the same warning of what''s to come (and in most cases that hasn''t meant dropping two divisions in 5 years...)

Cheers

Kev

[Gingerpele 0]

[quote user="Kevin Keelan"]

We''ve always been the only League team in Norfolk and ''football is more popular'' doesn''t explain wht Blackburn, Bolton and Wigan have wide spaces of empty seats and we don''t....

[/quote]Well it depends on the place, like Bolton is near manchester, so no Bolton fans..... and Wigan, they all support rugby....

[The Butler 0]

It really kicked off in the succesfull prem season followed by the European year.

Packed houses and corporate sponsorship.

It became a good place to be and entertain as well as keeping the core support happy.

Andy Cullen and his team did a good job of marketting the product with speacial deals and installment season tickets etc.

It''s like many habit type things once you start it is easy to keep going

This has started to drop off this year, if you look at the empty boxes and also the amount of sponsorship and advertising not taken up.

A bad season this year and my bet would be on dropping attendences and a vastly reduced income.

It was similar in the early 60''s after THE cup run 38000+ dwindled to 10/15000 over a few years of mediocrity.

[nutty nigel 7,902]

If you listen to many of the wise and wonderful posters who never go they will tell you it''s because we''re all Happy Clapping Z List Celebrity Obsessed Sheep who go for a glimpse of Delia and have no idea about what going to football is really about.

But of course if you ask those who pay their money and go every week they will tell you they go because they enjoy it. Why else would they go? It wouldn''t because they hate it but want to waste their money, and every other Saturday afternoon, doing something that makes them miserable would it?

So I reckon the fans keep coming because they enjoy it and because they feel they are getting value for money.

Why more than in years gone by? Well I reckon that''s because our club has reached out into the community and attracted whole families of supporters instead of just the father and son. Now there are some who will tell you that this "community side" to the club is what''s holding us back and why we are in League One. But for those of you who go I bet you have enjoyed the Wycombe, Orient and Bristol Rovers games as much as any since the autumn of 2006.

[8]"Stand up, if you''re  5-1 up"[Y] or [8]"Sit down if you''re in League One"[N] - You decide.

If filling the stadium is the right thing to do then I would suggest other clubs would be looking at us enviously trying to work out how to do it rather than us wondering why they can''t. But of course in the Premier League how  many fans actually go through the turnstiles is secondary to other income. In truth some clubs are happy for their fans to be watching on TV and buying the merchandise.

 

[Jerzy Krukowski 5]

Speaking personally, I didn''t go that often in the 80''s and early 90''s as I didn''t know anyone else who wanted to go. The rise of the internet, more disposable income and Uni mean''t I''ve met a lot more City fans over the years who were up for going mostly to away matches, a few beers and a laugh. The poor performances hasn''t seemed to make our gallows entertainment any less enticing. It''s a good way for a bunch of friends who rarely see each other anywhere else due to family, work and strange locations to stay in touch.

[nutty nigel 7,902]

I agree with a lot you say Butler, especially the corporate side dropping off. But I''m not so sure about the packed houses in the succesful Prem season or European year.

Here''s something to think about - When we were 8 points clear top of the Premiership we had a home gate of 14,161. And if we are drawn at home in the next round of the Paint Pot I wouldn''t muind a little bet that we could get close to the 16,818 that we attracted to our first ever European match against Vitesse Arnhem.

 

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

I agree with a lot you say Butler, especially the corporate side dropping off. But I''m not so sure about the packed houses in the succesful Prem season or European year.

Here''s something to think about - When we were 8 points clear top of the Premiership we had a home gate of 14,161. And if we are drawn at home in the next round of the Paint Pot I wouldn''t muind a little bet that we could get close to the 16,818 that we attracted to our first ever European match against Vitesse Arnhem.

 

[/quote]

You must have a very good City record collection to come up with that sort of detail!

I actually said thats when it started, it built up as the season progressed and a new supporter(s) came along.

That does not include you and me who were already there[:D]

[7rew 0]

I would say that this has something to do with the changing face of football.Going to football has become a much more common activity for the middle classes as well as the working classes.  The demographic of the norfolk/norwich area has a higher proportion of middle to working classes the club will have benefitted from the increase in support from the middle classes more than some others.Although this is not the only reason.

[Mr.Carrow 394]

......But then if you compare our support with some seasons in the 60`s and 70`s it`s hardly gone up at all.  Our post-war average attendance in all competetive games is 18,500, so we are not really a huge amount above that given a growing,wealthier population, better transport links, good payment plans for s.tickets, internet ticketing etc.

Perhaps the best question to ask is why on earth our support was so poor during the best years the club ever had?

[Mr.Carrow 394]

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

......But then if you compare our support with some seasons in the 60`s and 70`s it`s hardly gone up at all.  Our post-war average attendance in all competetive games is 18,500, so we are not really a huge amount above that given a growing,wealthier population, better transport links, good payment plans for s.tickets, internet ticketing etc.

Perhaps the best question to ask is why on earth our support was so poor during the best years the club ever had?

[/quote]

Sorry, that should be league games not all competitive games.

[nutty nigel 7,902]

[quote user="The Butler"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

I agree with a lot you say Butler, especially the corporate side dropping off. But I''m not so sure about the packed houses in the succesful Prem season or European year.

Here''s something to think about - When we were 8 points clear top of the Premiership we had a home gate of 14,161. And if we are drawn at home in the next round of the Paint Pot I wouldn''t muind a little bet that we could get close to the 16,818 that we attracted to our first ever European match against Vitesse Arnhem.

 

[/quote]

You must have a very good City record collection to come up with that sort of detail!

I actually said thats when it started, it built up as the season progressed and a new supporter(s) came along.

That does not include you and me who were already there[:D]

[/quote]

Those stats are hard to believe aren''t they? That year we all hoped we were just "on loan to the Endsliegh" when Martin O''Neill was manager we regularly had home gates of 14,000 or less. It actually got worse when Mike Walker was here the second time with home gates dropping below 12,000. The gates picked up in the late 90''s even though the football was cr*p and Hamilton was in charge. It was affordable family football and kids for a quid that started it.

I left my seat in The Barclay for a place in The Jarrold last Saturday. What struck me was the amount of mothers with sons and even grandparents with grandchildren. This would have been practically unheard of in years gone by. Just look around and you will see how much the make up of the crowd has changed over the years.

 

[......and Smith must score. 1,596]

Good post KK and one that does seem puzzling.....

For years now we''ve been dished up some real dross, home and away, yet we still get unbelievable numbers of fans turning out in the yellow and green week in week out. Of course it wasn''t always so. Even in the early 90''s - during which we produced arguably our most exciting and consistent football ever - we had home crowds numbering only the mid-teens and our away support was almost nothing  

Visiting grounds in the mid 70''s in the old First Division - now the Premier League -  I can remember that we had so few away fans I knew virtually each one by sight if not by name. At almost every away game us City fans must have kept our colours well hidden as I could rarely spot any yellow and green in the crowd at all and if there was any it would be the odd one or pair of scarves dotted around the ground ( this was in the days before replica shirts ).

Here we are sitting in the '' Third Division '' of the Football League andI wouldn''t mind betting that we''ll take around 1000 supporters to Brunton Park on Saturday. This really does seem insane as most fans will be looking at a 600 mile round trip. As for home games how the hell did we manage to get a 12,000 plus gate for the visit of Brentford in the ridiculous Johnstone''s Paint Trophy ? That figure was close to the total attendance of ALL the other Southern Section 1st Round matches combined.

As for any Carlisle supporters who think there''s less to do in Norwich than Carlisle they obviously haven''t ever visited East Anglia. I was in Carlisle last year and it seemed a pleasant enough place but with a distinct '' off-the-beaten-track '' feel to it, a bit like Norwich perhaps, but much less lively. It might be at the end of the M6 but it''s about 60 miles from Newcastle, the nearest built up area, and what they all do if they don''t feel like going to the fortnightly pantomime at Brunton Park I really couldn''t say as they don''t have a live theatre in the town.

Perhaps they''ll all come down to Carrow Road for their final game of the season next May ? Somehow I think they''ll be happy enough just counting the sheep.......

 

 

 

[Matt Juler 208]

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

Perhaps the best question to ask is why on earth our support was so poor during the best years the club ever had?

[/quote]
The late 80s and early 90s were a very poor time economically for Norfolk and the surrounding areas. Other than NU there were few major employers in the City and the idea of commuting to London/Cambridge to work was still new-fangled.

The cost of watching Norwich back in those days was very similar to what it is today (ie, around £20 a ticket), football has become much more affordable.

[......and Smith must score. 1,596]

[quote user="......and Smith must score."]

Good post KK and one that does seem puzzling.....

For years now we''ve been dished up some real dross, home and away, yet we still get unbelievable numbers of fans turning out in the yellow and green week in week out. Of course it wasn''t always so. Even in the early 90''s - during which we produced arguably our most exciting and consistent football ever - we had home crowds numbering only the mid-teens and our away support was almost nothing  

Visiting grounds in the mid 70''s in the old First Division - now the Premier League -  I can remember that we had so few away fans I knew virtually each one by sight if not by name. At almost every away game us City fans must have kept our colours well hidden as I could rarely spot any yellow and green in the crowd at all and if there was any it would be the odd one or pair of scarves dotted around the ground ( this was in the days before replica shirts ).

Here we are sitting in the '' Third Division '' of the Football League andI wouldn''t mind betting that we''ll take around 1000 supporters to Brunton Park on Saturday. This really does seem insane as most fans will be looking at a 600 mile round trip. As for home games how the hell did we manage to get a 12,000 plus gate for the visit of Brentford in the ridiculous Johnstone''s Paint Trophy ? That figure was close to the total attendance of ALL the other Southern Section 1st Round matches combined.

As for any Carlisle supporters who think there''s less to do in Norwich than Carlisle they obviously haven''t ever visited East Anglia. I was in Carlisle last year and it seemed a pleasant enough place but with a distinct '' off-the-beaten-track '' feel to it, a bit like Norwich perhaps, but much less lively. It might be at the end of the M6 but it''s about 60 miles from Newcastle, the nearest built up area, and what they all do if they don''t feel like going to the fortnightly pantomime at Brunton Park I really couldn''t say as they don''t have a live theatre in the town.

Perhaps they''ll all come down to Carrow Road for their final game of the season next May ? Somehow I think they''ll be happy enough just counting the sheep.......

 

[/quote]

Of course meant to say that our away support in the 90''s was less, not almost nothing ( when you''ve been going as long as I have all the decades merge into one! )

[nutty nigel 7,902]

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

......But then if you compare our support with some seasons in the 60`s and 70`s it`s hardly gone up at all.  Our post-war average attendance in all competetive games is 18,500, so we are not really a huge amount above that given a growing,wealthier population, better transport links, good payment plans for s.tickets, internet ticketing etc.

Perhaps the best question to ask is why on earth our support was so poor during the best years the club ever had?

[/quote]

Yes indeed Mr Carrow. When we first ever played in the top division in 72/73 we had quite a few crowds around 35,000. Packed terraces and happy days but those days are gone. What happened in the 80''s completely changed football as a spectator sport. Manchester United away in 72/73 was 48,000 and we were both bottom six teams. Manchester United away in the Premiership when we were both top 6 in 92/93 was 35,000. So we have followed the trend between 73 and 93. But we buck the trend now by holding onto our support. And I still reckon it''s affordable family football from a community orienated club.

 

[tom cavendish 0]

The reason is Andrew Cullen and Delia Smith. Like her or not, Delia has a very good ''safe'' image and so her image has helped attract a lot of people who used to think football was all about crowd trouble etc. This combined with Andrew Cullens marketing skills to target more families. The games then sold out so people bought season tickets thinking they would miss a game if they didn''t buy one.

See: http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attnclub/norc.htm

[paul moy 235]

I agree with most of the comments here but I think that one of the main things nowadays is that the facilities and comfort factor are streets ahead of what they were in the past. Everybody nowadays has a nice seat with no pillars to obscure the view in covered areas not open to the elements. That, coupled with the lack of hooliganism and low pricing now makes it all a great place to bring your kids, and once they start coming it takes a lot to stop them !!  

[Congo Canary 0]

We were actually discussing this on Saturday. I can remember regularly attending matches in the mid to late 80''s, when attendances were little more than 13,000-14,000. And also if i remember correctly, even in the European season, the average was around the 17,000 mark.

I think alot of it now has to do with the kids and how they are attracted to the game. How many kids football teams are there locally? They play on a Saturday morning, they want to watch on a Saturday afternoon. Lets face it, the price of season tickets for kids is very good compared to many. However, quite how this affects finances when a ticket could be sold at full price i don''t know, but i presume the clubs idea is, '' Get hooked young''. And of course Carrow road is a very comfortable, and relatively safe place to come compared to many in all divisions.

Personally, although going to every home game between early and mid 80''s game in and all those when im on leave, i never felt the need to get a season ticket until 7 years ago, as i was always pretty much guaranteed to get a seat. Now, i get one because although i work away for 6 months a year, its the only way i can guarentee a ticket for when i''m home.

[Arthur Whittle 0]

If you think back to the 80''s in the old Div 1 us and Portsmouth always had the best Attendance being around the 14000 mark. Its football in general but there is certainly a bigger rise at Carrow Rd than many other clubs and i think thats down to the family image of NCFC. Not always great in my opinion as it hasn''t really done us any favours but i''m old fashioned when it comes to Saturday afternoon entertainment

[Smiffy 0]

I agree with the Cullen e-mail. It''s all down to him. Capturing them young by getting into schools and kids for a quid = fans for life.

When I was at School it was full of kids in Hitachi Liverpool shirts, now you just have to walk through the City to see kids in yellow and green.

[Mr.Carrow 394]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

......But then if you compare our support with some seasons in the 60`s and 70`s it`s hardly gone up at all.  Our post-war average attendance in all competetive games is 18,500, so we are not really a huge amount above that given a growing,wealthier population, better transport links, good payment plans for s.tickets, internet ticketing etc.

Perhaps the best question to ask is why on earth our support was so poor during the best years the club ever had?

[/quote]

Yes indeed Mr Carrow. When we first ever played in the top division in 72/73 we had quite a few crowds around 35,000. Packed terraces and happy days but those days are gone. What happened in the 80''s completely changed football as a spectator sport. Manchester United away in 72/73 was 48,000 and we were both bottom six teams. Manchester United away in the Premiership when we were both top 6 in 92/93 was 35,000. So we have followed the trend between 73 and 93. But we buck the trend now by holding onto our support. And I still reckon it''s affordable family football from a community orienated club.

 

[/quote]

If you look at pretty much any club there will be spells where their crowds are down at quite embarrassing levels- i remember Chelsea, West Ham and Newcastle regularly getting less than 15k some seasons and that perennial "sleeping giant" Sheff.Weds getting about 20k in the Prem.  It`s just quite bizarre that our period of poor crowds coincides with our best ever spell on the pitch!

I agree about "affordable family football" and ticketing/marketing is something i think the club has excelled at, although i do think it has some downsides- i think if you were in the Jarrold for really important games you`d see what i mean....

We certainly have held onto fans better than other clubs but i also think that we simply have a bigger support than many want to give us credit for.

[nutty nigel 7,902]

I already see what you mean Mr Carrow because I was in the Jarrold last Saturday.

But however hard we try we can''t make out these big gates to be a bad thing. We can''t give the credit for them to earlier administrations. We have to bite the bullet, as you have done, and give credit to those responsible.

In order to keep those fans the club has to listen to them. Not listen to those who don''t go. Those who don''t go won''t ever go anyway. This I''m afraid is a fact of life. I have learned to listen to what my customers want rather than what those who say "they would be customers if......" want. Pubs and clubs all over the country were looking forward to an increase in trade when the smoking ban came in. All those "I would be customers if it wasn''t for people smoking" were going to at least double any revenue lost through smokers staying away. Unfortunately those who stayed away due to smoking now still stay away. many of the have got a new "they would be customers if...."! Don''t listen to them. Listen to the people who do want to be there!

 

[Mr.Carrow 394]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

I already see what you mean Mr Carrow because I was in the Jarrold last Saturday.

But however hard we try we can''t make out these big gates to be a bad thing. We can''t give the credit for them to earlier administrations. We have to bite the bullet, as you have done, and give credit to those responsible.

In order to keep those fans the club has to listen to them. Not listen to those who don''t go. Those who don''t go won''t ever go anyway. This I''m afraid is a fact of life. I have learned to listen to what my customers want rather than what those who say "they would be customers if......" want. Pubs and clubs all over the country were looking forward to an increase in trade when the smoking ban came in. All those "I would be customers if it wasn''t for people smoking" were going to at least double any revenue lost through smokers staying away. Unfortunately those who stayed away due to smoking now still stay away. many of the have got a new "they would be customers if...."! Don''t listen to them. Listen to the people who do want to be there!

 

[/quote]

Yes, we have to bite the bullet and give credit where it`s due.  But by the same token we also have to be brave enough to bite the bullet and give brickbats when they are due rather than rely on some lame "It`s the way football`s changed which has done for us" excuse.....

I saw you posted that you were in the Jarrold, but if you were in there for a really important game as i have been i think you may understand how frustrating it can be to be surrounded by silent pie-stuffers who look at you like you`re some kind of escaped mental patient for joining in On the Ball City in a must-win game.

All i can say about your last paragraph is that you must move in very different circles to me.  I know alot of City fans and most have had spells of not going- more relating to issues off the pitch rather than on it (ie.Chase).  Plenty of people i know are going to far more games this season because of the boardroom changes, so in my experience your assertion that "Those who don`t go won`t ever go anyway" is plain wrong.

[nutty nigel 7,902]

They''re going to games in League One because of boardroom changes but didn''t go to games in the Championship because there were no boardroom changes? I suppose they did go back in 2004 despite who was in the boardroom? And winning games has absolutely bnothing to do with it[*-)] I suspect your friends have no ambition whatsoever and are quite happy in the Third Division because we are winning games[:O]

You couldn''t make it up!

 

[Mr.Carrow 394]

I don`t think anyone could make you up nutty.....

You are aware, i assume, that quite a few people boycotted CR because of Chase? Well, quite a few did the same because of the mismanagement of the club since the Prem., and the perceived reluctance of those in full charge to hand over to more competent people.  Changes have been made, talk is that the majority shareholders no longer have things all their own way, therefore people are encouraged that our club may be able to move forward again and they are not turning up just to prop up two deluded egotists.  Is it that difficult to understand?  Apparently so.....