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He played very well agaisnt Rovers and Orient at home and in those two games didn''t put a foot wrong.  However I listened to the last twenty minutes today and it sounded like he was comitting a few fouls around the area in dangerous positions.  I came on here and eveyone is saying that he is getting back to his usual self of giving away free kicks and using players as a ladder.  This all worries me.  Doherty is no nonsense and more often that not put''s it in row Z, but in the past few seasons we have conceded so many goals because of unecessary free kicks and penalties he has given away.  He cannot do this and when we play teams like Leeds next week something like that could cost us the game.  Doherty is Doherty and this will never go from his game, and to be honest, he is far to much of a liability.  I still don''t think we have a good enough partner for Askou as I think Nelson is prone to the same sort of thing.

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He gave away one free-kick in a very dangerous position and their fullback (Harte) was close to making us pay as a result.

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[quote user="Grif"]He gave away one free-kick in a very dangerous position and their fullback (Harte) was close to making us pay as a result.[/quote]I''m sure he was the only player to give away a freekick in a dangerous position.Fact is, Doc is a far, far better CB than any of the others we have, and I include JBA in that - despite the love-in we all seem to have for him, the guy is shaky at the best of times. Yet, he''ll never get slated like Doc does for giving away fouls.

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He''s been decent.  We''ve been decent.  Results are going our way so there''s very little to complain about.  When Doc gives some crappy ''no-need'' foul away and costs us points, he will deserve all the criticism he will undoubtedly receive.  Until then, he should be praised with every other player for what we''ve achieved in the past couple of months.

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According to the BBC text commentary thingy Doherty gave away the grand total of two fouls today so I don''t think that''s much to moan about. Especially when Holt gave away double that...Askou, impressively, didn''t give away any which is pretty impressive for a centre-back.

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[quote user="Graham Humphrey"]Askou, impressively, didn''t give away any which is pretty impressive for a centre-back.[/quote]Not the best sentence I''ve ever written. It''s late.

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                                                     why don''t you get off his back instead of waiting for him to make a mistake so you can moan about him

ill get off docs back when he gets off the opposition''s back

 

 

Good comeback CMBA!

He has not been perfect as the originator of this thread claimed, in the games vc Orient and Bristol. He fell over early in one of those games and we were fortunate not to get punished for it. However, 3 clean sheets in a row suggests he is not poisoning the team the way he used to.  He seems to have found his level.  Too bad it took 2 relegations for that to happen, but so be it.

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What you need to remember is while Doherty may make a bad mistake (giving away a dangerous free kick, making a bunder) every 4 or 5 games, he still is (in my opinion) the best CB at the club.

for example, if another CB fails to mark/track a man or his run, and we concede a goal because of it, it isnt at all obvious whos fault it is and the player will usually go without blame. Doherty for me is a solid defended who never lets a player out of his sight (sometimes by physically holding them) and I think its his flaw of looking a right tool when he does make a mistake being the reason people dont like him.

 

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If even Houston isn''t on Doc''s case at the moment then he must be playing at least OK!  So many people seem to be on "Doc Watch" just waiting for any sort of slip to stick the knife in.  To do this on the basis of the radio commentary is a bit unfair to say the least.  I was at the game and thought Doc was a tower of strength at the heart of the defence along with Askou while a lot of the players in front of him struggled to get going or failed to make the most of the opportunities we had against a mediocre Carlisle side.  I can only remember Doc giving away a couple of free kicks all game.  He didn''t get booked or sent off and we kept a clean sheet, in spite of a lot of pressure towards the end.  So this makes him a "liability"?! 

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its utterly pathetic that we`re on a winning run and people still feel the ned to single him out for critisism, not only that but people who weren`t even their to see it for themselves..from what i heard on snorefolk he had a very decent game ..adams hasn`t a bad word for him at the moment , its just worrying and whining for the sake of it [:D]

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It''s the Norwich fans never ending need for a scapegoat. Doc doesnt deserve it, he''s been a superb CB that, like every other player, has made the odd mistake. But he''s still the most composed and the best CB we have. Some fans will never trust the Doc. That''s their loss.

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For example, that incident right there:JBA has his hands on Dobie, who escapes and fires a shot to goal. Now, he did no more or less than the Doc did when he conceeded the freekick (except lose the ball), but the criticism for JBA wouldnt be near the level than Doc gets. But we can ignore the new mans mistakes, because he looks alright and has a good head on him....

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[quote user="Allez17"]For example, that incident right there:

JBA has his hands on Dobie, who escapes and fires a shot to goal. Now, he did no more or less than the Doc did when he conceeded the freekick (except lose the ball), but the criticism for JBA wouldnt be near the level than Doc gets. But we can ignore the new mans mistakes, because he looks alright and has a good head on him....
[/quote]

If anything you could be more critical of JBA because he let his man get away from him too easily.

Not that I want to be critical of either Doherty or JBA because they''re our best defenders and they''re defending well.

I like JBA because he''s a real competitor but I definitely trust Doherty the most.

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[quote user="Canary_on_the Trent"]So you want Doherty to just concede the battle with a centre forward?

Nothing he can do if a centre forward is backing in[/quote]Me?

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[quote user="Allez17"]For example, that incident right there:

JBA has his hands on Dobie, who escapes and fires a shot to goal. Now, he did no more or less than the Doc did when he conceeded the freekick (except lose the ball), but the criticism for JBA wouldnt be near the level than Doc gets. But we can ignore the new mans mistakes, because he looks alright and has a good head on him....
[/quote]

Part of being a defender is giving away freekicks. Because they''re defenders free kicks will be in dangerous areas. They''re much more likely to be in and around the box than free kicks given away by midfielders or forwards. Sometimes a yellow card or even a red card is the price you pay for a clean sheet. Sometimes even a penalty is better than a goal, depends on the state of the game and time left etc. And, as Allex17 alludes in this post, giving away a free kick is a better option than giving away a goal.

This all sounds so elementary and yet doesn''t seem to apply to our Ginger Pele.

Four games back in the side, four wins, one goal conceded from a penalty given away by Askou but the witch hunt is still on[:|]

 

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I''m gonna stick up for the originator of this thread. Doherty''s rugby tackle on Dobie today was typical, and he was VERY lucky to not give away a penalty. We''re winning currently because we''re scoring goals so it''s not an issue, but I always feel a red card / penalty is just around the corner with him at the back. Watch the footage from todays game, he was bear hugging the lad from behind ffs, both hands wrapped around the striker on the edge of the box, you can''t do that now. Shearer made a career out of fooling defenders like Doherty.

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[quote user="Michael Starr"]I''m gonna stick up for the originator of this thread. Doherty''s rugby tackle on Dobie today was typical, and he was VERY lucky to not give away a penalty. We''re winning currently because we''re scoring goals so it''s not an issue, but I always feel a red card / penalty is just around the corner with him at the back. Watch the footage from todays game, he was bear hugging the lad from behind ffs, both hands wrapped around the striker on the edge of the box, you can''t do that now. Shearer made a career out of fooling defenders like Doherty.
[/quote]

Hardly true is it? We only needed to score one goal in three of the last four games to win and we would only have needed to score one in the fourth if Askou hadn''t given away that penalty.

 

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for me it was just as much Dobie backing in as it was doc holding him and as an ex centre back you have to hold your ground and not be bullied into letting the striker have a clear shot on goal, a bit like askou when he was out muscled and allowed their striker to have a decent chance. Doc is by far the best CB we have and i for one am getting pretty fed up with everyone having a go when we have only conceded the penalty since hes been back in and that was askous faultis anyone else a bit concerned with the stat that askou didnt concede 1 foul yesterday? for me, esp in this league, i would expect my centre backs to concede some fouls

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Houston, the slip that you refer to as being "fortunate not to get punished for" happened in the first min of the orient game and you can tell that you are not there live as it didnt cause any problems what so ever. He has been as near perfect as you can get in a football match since he was brought back in and as i said when he was first left out and everyone was waiting for him to leave that Doc will be a very important player for us this season

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I personally dont rate Doherty he is more than likely to be the highest if not one of the highest earners at the club and i dont think we get value for money from him, but having said that he is playing well at the momment and while he is and we''re winning and looking solid he should stay in the team (anyway we hardly have an alternative at the momment with all the injuries), every player imo whether you rate them or not deserves the right to stay in the first 11 if they are performing well.

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Let me get this straight first. I have never been a big fan of the Doc. You are just waiting for the next mistake. His habit of wrestling with players is bound to cause both him and the team problems. What i really hate though is the way he tries to lean round a forward to get his head to the ball, all it needs is the slightest touch and forward has turned him and away. But ... and this is a big but ... we have looked solid since he came in against Orient. His distribution of the ball is way better than Askou and it shows. Maybe now the team has confidence in the Doc and he has confidence in those around him, we will see him do his job consistently well. The centre back pairing we have at the moment seems to be the best available at this time.One thing that does tend to annoy me about this debate is that both centre backs strengths and weaknesses seem to be being used as ammunition to argue who is better. Who cares? They are the best defensive partnership we have and as long as they are not collectively responsible for shipping goals thats all that matters.And the goal we conceded against Bristol Rovers ... mighty soft penalty.

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People claim this thread to be moaning. Of course it''s moaning, he''s an average defender in a average league against average (and in yesterdays case... poor) strikers. The only reason we''ve sharpened up at the back of late is because Lamberts thrown in extra numbers at the back, Korey Smith, a Defensive shield positioned ahead of the front four. It''s no fluke Doherty has turned in some good performances of late since the arrival of Lambert. For me, Korey Smith should be taking the applause ahead of Doherty.I will admit there is an overall improvement with Doherty lately, but yesterday''s ridiculous bear hug on Dobie could have easily changed the game. Something tells me we''re in the market for two central defenders right now. I''m fully expecting Doherty to give away at least one penalty on Monday against Leeds. Beckfords going to tear us apart with his movement and pace. I hope I''m wrong, but I doubt it.

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[quote user="Michael Starr"]People claim this thread to be moaning. Of course it''s moaning, he''s an average defender in a average league against average (and in yesterdays case... poor) strikers. The only reason we''ve sharpened up at the back of late is because Lamberts thrown in extra numbers at the back, Korey Smith, a Defensive shield positioned ahead of the front four.

It''s no fluke Doherty has turned in some good performances of late since the arrival of Lambert. For me, Korey Smith should be taking the applause ahead of Doherty.

I will admit there is an overall improvement with Doherty lately, but yesterday''s ridiculous bear hug on Dobie could have easily changed the game. Something tells me we''re in the market for two central defenders right now. I''m fully expecting Doherty to give away at least one penalty on Monday against Leeds. Beckfords going to tear us apart with his movement and pace. I hope I''m wrong, but I doubt it.
[/quote]

Not that I agree with all this but there is a crucial point here.  The main reason that we are defending better is because Lambert has got our players defending as a team and that includes the midfield.  A lot of the "comic cuts" defending we''ve seen in the past has been due to the back four getting exposed by midfielders who simply haven''t done their job.  The biggest problem has been midfielders not tracking back with their man which has then pulled defenders out of position.  This doesn''t seem to happen anything like as much as it used to.  The best examples of what I''m talking about could be seen in the Sunderland game where defenders got it in the neck for midfield players getting caught out of position and not getting back.  Yesterday it was Rusty who did a fantastic job in front of the back four.

Apart from this you''re falling back into the old "witchhunt" mentality.  The "ridiculous bear hug" from Doherty was seen by many as backing in by the striker.  It looked to me at the game and on TV as both being at fault.  Of course you fail to mention the shirt pulling and grappling inside the box by Askou that the ref let go and the blatant shirt pulling by Holt at corners which could have conceded at least one penalty.  Of course when one of our "golden boys" does this then we look the other way but when Doc does less than this people jump up and down looking for blood!

Whether Doc gives away a penalty in the next match or not I''m certain that sometime in the next few weeks/months he''s going to make a mistake that costs us a goal.  It''s the nature of playing in that position.  I''m also sure that when this does happen we''ll have a month of the "I told you so" brigade wringing their hands looking for his head.  Meanwhile others make daft mistakes that are simply rejected as refereeing mistakes or unlucky almost without comment.  By all means criticise players when they''ve done something wrong (as long as you treat them all the same) but criticising someone because you "fully expect" them to make a mistake is just ridiculous.

 

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[quote user="Grif"]He gave away one free-kick in a very dangerous position and their fullback (Harte) was close to making us pay as a result.[/quote]

His octopus routine was almost a penalty, I still reckon he''s car crash in waiting![:@]

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