Why the NCISA witch hunt?

[Kathy 733]

[quote user="Ankles"]I became a member specifically to make recommendations for beneficial changes, or at leastwhat i feel are beneficial. As with NCFC board i feel the old guard need to step aside & let fresh blood in with new impetus. The obvious response to this is every member can put themselves up for election so a suitable candidate has every chance of election. I refute that and prefer a forceable life period for each committe member so change HAS to happen If it is seen as a witch hunt by some sensitive soles i really don''t care, i didn''t join to make friends[/quote]

On the contrary, I welcome your proposal. I feel that the reality of the situation is that there may not be enough willing souls out there to feed a rotation system, but I look forward to seeing if I am wrong.

[Ankles 0]

Half a dozen every 2 or 3 years?

I''d be shocked if it was a genuine struggle at all

[McNallyindahouse 0]

This is classic! After all the pieces in the press and interviews on the radio from NCISA urging people to take the rebate you''re now saying that it was nothing to do with you. Either you''re an influential group or you''re not. Which is it?I saw something the other day that said NCISA had raised about £12k over the years for the academy. The rebate along with the money Foulger would have stumped up means the club lost £2,400,000 this summer. But of course all the press coverage and statements meant nothing did they.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

[quote user="blahblahblah"]at [quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

Do you honestly think a single person kept their rebate because NCISA told them to?  The majority of people kept their rebates, so that would suggest that NCISA called it right and reflected the views of the majority of their members which, in a nutshell, is what they are about.  Unless you believe they should back the minority viewpoint when making decisions??

[/quote]

What I didn''t understand about that was why they felt it necessary to comment at all - you''ve just admitted that their opinion on the matter wouldn''t be listened to, so why say anything about it ?  As far as maintaining links with the club go, I feel that this was an own goal.
[/quote]

They are far from perfect- as i am often reminded by my friend who is an ex-commitee member, but they are basically in a no-win situation stuck in the middle with views of their own but trying to represent the majority view of their members- often on the hoof with no time for ballots etc.  They were criticised long and loud for not being vocal or critical enough during our slide, then they get criticised for making a statement which the majority of fans seemed to agree with.....

[Mr.Carrow 376]

[quote user="refjezhitchin"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"][quote user="refjezhitchin"]

Another thing, this is a thread from footballwriter.co.uk re: NCISA and rebate

In particular, it (NCISA) urged all season ticket holders to reclaim the rebate that came with relegation - a move that could force the club into finding upwards of £600,000 this summer should its 18,250-strong season ticket base all demand a refund of up to 20% on the cost of their season ticket now that they were being ''sold'' the prospect of watching Yeovil at home next season.

An organistation which has been said to support the club financially especially the academy - Great, the NCISA deserves credit for that, but then for them to ''urge'' Norwich fans to claim the rebate, means they are effectively making the club lose money if fans did indeed listen to the NCISA.

So in one sense good that you are giving money to the academy but on the other hand its very hypocritical for you then to turn around and effectively take money away from the club.

[/quote]

Do you honestly think a single person kept their rebate because NCISA told them to?  The majority of people kept their rebates, so that would suggest that NCISA called it right and reflected the views of the majority of their members which, in a nutshell, is what they are about.  Unless you believe they should back the minority viewpoint when making decisions??

[/quote]

I don''t think the NCISA called it right I''m afraid, not when they are trying to raise money for the club, then equally would back a measure for people to take money away from the club....

and no I don''t think people kept their rebate just because the NCISA told them too, but i doubt it helped.

[/quote]

So you believe NCISA should have backed the minority view over the majority?  I suggest a move to North Korea.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

[quote user="McNallyindahouse"]This is classic! After all the pieces in the press and interviews on the radio from NCISA urging people to take the rebate you''re now saying that it was nothing to do with you. Either you''re an influential group or you''re not. Which is it?

I saw something the other day that said NCISA had raised about £12k over the years for the academy. The rebate along with the money Foulger would have stumped up means the club lost £2,400,000 this summer. But of course all the press coverage and statements meant nothing did they.


[/quote]

Who exactly are you addressing this too?  FYI i`m nothing to do with NCISA.  Also your figures are miles out.  Have to go to work now unfortunately....

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"][quote user="blahblahblah"]at [quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

Do you honestly think a single person kept their rebate because NCISA told them to?  The majority of people kept their rebates, so that would suggest that NCISA called it right and reflected the views of the majority of their members which, in a nutshell, is what they are about.  Unless you believe they should back the minority viewpoint when making decisions??

[/quote]What I didn''t understand about that was why they felt it necessary to comment at all - you''ve just admitted that their opinion on the matter wouldn''t be listened to, so why say anything about it ?  As far as maintaining links with the club go, I feel that this was an own goal.[/quote]

They are far from perfect- as i am often reminded by my friend who is an ex-commitee member, but they are basically in a no-win situation stuck in the middle with views of their own but trying to represent the majority view of their members- often on the hoof with no time for ballots etc.  They were criticised long and loud for not being vocal or critical enough during our slide, then they get criticised for making a statement which the majority of fans seemed to agree with.....

[/quote]You can never please all the people, all the time... [:)]

[Mr.Carrow 376]

Succinctness (is that a word?!) has never been my strong point blah!  Right, i`m well late for work.....

[shortfatb 0]

Anything that I know about the NCISA is from this board and whilst I''m sure people are working really hard and putting loads of hours in on a voluntary basis, people do this for a million different causes all around these Isles for the same reason, because they want to. When they don''t want to or can''t do it any longer, they stop. Also like a million other organisations, the people who run it hold all elements of it dear because they are part of it, they thought of them in the first place, they want to hang on to the ''power'' they hold, etc. They also often resent others tampering with or mocking what they''ve got and often appear very open but are actually unofficial closed shops    Also if these people stopped caring it would probably all stop in many cases, and would it really matter to anyone other than the people who run them?What do associations like this actually achieve? I''m not a member by the way as I only wear a fleece when I go camping, and as everybody knows, volunteering doesn''t pay.   

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote]So an association that represents their members opinion should not express that opinion in case they offend someone.[/quote]

I believe it''s called choosing your moments Butler.  I''m as entitled to that opinion as they are to theirs on the issue, and as you are of mine.

[quote]Anything else you want to lay at NCISA''s door?[/quote]

This reactionary and parochial attitude is exactly the problem Butler.  You aren''t actually on their committee, but have appointed yourself a guard dog, and you are going them a dis-service in doing so.  Now be a good dog and stop digging will you.
[/quote]

So they chose the wrong moment?

You mean while people were making their minds up!

Did you mean doing them a dis-service?

By asking questions of those detractors? Parochial? Again I don''t understand that comment. Local is not NCISA local?

You don''t push me over that easy Blah.

Watch dogs don''t dig they bite. You have taken time to express your opinions am I not allowed my opinion also.

[McNallyindahouse 0]

Mr Carrow I was addressing it to The Butler but the time I spent looking for the NCISA statement about the St Andrews Hall meeting meant that more posts appeared in between. Quotes don''t work for me. The statement doesn''t seem to be on the NCISA site anywhere but the invitation to St Andrews is. Odd.You''re right my figures were out. I had £1.2 million in my head for some reason as being the amount the rebate plus Foulgers money contributed. Actually the 34% who didn''t take it plus Foulger came to about £700k didn''t it. That means it only cost the club £1.4 million. That''s better!

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote user="The Butler"]

[quote user="blahblahblah"]

So they chose the wrong moment?

You mean while people were making their minds up!

Did you mean doing them a dis-service?[/quote]

Pedantry is the last resort of those who know they have lost the argument.

Watch dogs don''t dig they bite. You have taken time to express your opinions am I not allowed my opinion also.[/quote]

There''s a scrap yard a mile or so from my house.  It''s got a big snarling dog out the back, and a barbed wire fence.  They are there for the yards'' security, but as a marketing statement, they are not very helpful.  I might need a door mirror for my car in future, but I wouldn''t go there, because of the guard dog and the fence.  Do you understand me now ?Now imagine if you owned that scrap yard, and a big snarling dog turned up one day and started scaring off your customers to protect your yard.  You''re not doing them any favours.  Take a leaf out of faces'' book.

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="The Butler"]

[quote user="blahblahblah"]

So they chose the wrong moment?

You mean while people were making their minds up!

Did you mean doing them a dis-service?[/quote]

Pedantry is the last resort of those who know they have lost the argument.

Watch dogs don''t dig they bite. You have taken time to express your opinions am I not allowed my opinion also.[/quote]

There''s a scrap yard a mile or so from my house.  It''s got a big snarling dog out the back, and a barbed wire fence.  They are there for the yards'' security, but as a marketing statement, they are not very helpful.  I might need a door mirror for my car in future, but I wouldn''t go there, because of the guard dog and the fence.  Do you understand me now ?

Now imagine if you owned that scrap yard, and a big snarling dog turned up one day and started scaring off your customers to protect your yard.  You''re not doing them any favours.  Take a leaf out of faces'' book.
[/quote]

 Perhaps the owner got fed up with people pinching his property or insulting/threatening his friends.

Now if you check the posts I have made, I haven''t  called anyone little S*** and a snarling dog but have kept my replies courteous.

Not posted anything that is not in the public domain.

Me thinks perhaps Blah that you protest to much!

 

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote]Perhaps the owner got fed up with people pinching his property or insulting/threatening his friends.[/quote]Again, the blurring of 2 completely separate incidents.  Quite how you can associate an idiot confronting someone with someone asking a simple question on here is astounding.  [quote] I haven''t  called anyone little S*** and a snarling dog but have kept my replies courteous[/quote]And then, associating my comment with a completely separate comment made by someone else about something else.I''m stopping this now as it''s getting silly and one of us needs to be the adult.  But I think you need to go for a long walk and clear your head.

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote]Perhaps the owner got fed up with people pinching his property or insulting/threatening his friends.[/quote]

Again, the blurring of 2 completely separate incidents.  Quite how you can associate an idiot confronting someone with someone asking a simple question on here is astounding. 

[quote] I haven''t  called anyone little S*** and a snarling dog but have kept my replies courteous[/quote]

And then, associating my comment with a completely separate comment made by someone else about something else.

I''m stopping this now as it''s getting silly and one of us needs to be the adult. 

But I think you need to go for a long walk and clear your head.
[/quote]

It''s not me that''s confused, you drew the analogy I replied.

You are right lets both be grown up and stop.

Fresh air for me and you go out and play.[:D]

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"][quote user="refjezhitchin"]

Another thing, this is a thread from footballwriter.co.uk re: NCISA and rebate

In particular, it (NCISA) urged all season ticket holders to reclaim the rebate that came with relegation - a move that could force the club into finding upwards of £600,000 this summer should its 18,250-strong season ticket base all demand a refund of up to 20% on the cost of their season ticket now that they were being ''sold'' the prospect of watching Yeovil at home next season.

An organistation which has been said to support the club financially especially the academy - Great, the NCISA deserves credit for that, but then for them to ''urge'' Norwich fans to claim the rebate, means they are effectively making the club lose money if fans did indeed listen to the NCISA.

So in one sense good that you are giving money to the academy but on the other hand its very hypocritical for you then to turn around and effectively take money away from the club.

[/quote]

Do you honestly think a single person kept their rebate because NCISA told them to?  The majority of people kept their rebates, so that would suggest that NCISA called it right and reflected the views of the majority of their members which, in a nutshell, is what they are about.  Unless you believe they should back the minority viewpoint when making decisions??

[/quote]

At the open meeting at St. Andrews, 90% polled that they were season ticket holders and 75% of the season ticket holders voted that they would take the rebate. So NCISA were listening to the people.

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

Do the bump.....

[Flashman 0]

Personally, I have always felt that the high profile members of NCISA are too cosy with the club.  It is easy to picture Roy Blower and his good wife being invited round to sip tea with Delia and Michael.   I believe that some of them are part of the inner sanctum known as the Supporters'' Consultative Group. 

Incidentally, does anyone know if the SCG is still alive and kicking?  I note that sketchy minutes began to be posted on the official NCFC website but nothing has appeared since the meeting of 15th May, 2009.  

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="Flashman"]

Personally, I have always felt that the high profile members of NCISA are too cosy with the club.  It is easy to picture Roy Blower and his good wife being invited round to sip tea with Delia and Michael.   I believe that some of them are part of the inner sanctum known as the Supporters'' Consultative Group. 

Incidentally, does anyone know if the SCG is still alive and kicking?  I note that sketchy minutes began to be posted on the official NCFC website but nothing has appeared since the meeting of 15th May, 2009.  

[/quote]

As far as I know every one of the were invited to the recent meet the board meeting. So yes they still are in being.

I am sure LQ would confirm that.

[Daphne 0]

The NCISA-related threads on this board are more depressing than the current state of our team!

As a committee member who would be perfectly OK about being voted off - as long as this was through the constitutional process - I throw some random thoughts into this gruesome, and quite unpleasant, soup.

1. This is a general message board - not the NCISA website. Fewer than half of the committee members contribute to it - and when they do, apart from factual info about meetings etc, any opinions expressed are their own, not NCISA''s. Therefore it''s not realistic to expect a "NCISA point of view" on here.

2. There have been a lot of comments on the 500 NCISA members and the 20,000 season ticket holders. Membership of NCISA is open to anyone. The only right you have as a member is to attend the AGM and vote, to nominate committee members etc. Currently membership of most organisations in the UK is down - we are becoming a nation of watchers rather than joiners - look at political parties and trade unions. Statistically NCISA is most likely quite well supported!

3. NCISA arranges meetings (St Andrews Hall) and forums - as at the AGM - which are open to all. That is where most new members are signed up. However you can come and speak and not join - that is an individual''s choice. The AGM part of the meeting on Sept 10th is open to all - and all are welcome - but the formal business including elections will have to run according to the constitution before the general forum with McNally starts. New committee members are always welcome - please make yourselves known on the night.

4. And to be quite honest, reading this thread in which committee members are both cosying up to the Board and also threatening the club''s future over the rebate issue - it is difficult to pin down exactly what (as the OP says) why there seems to be a NCISA witch hunt.

5. Looking forward to seeing lots of you on September 10th. It should be a really interesting evening. However I am sure that NCISA membership reflects Committee membership - I''d be very surprised if even half our members read this board!

[Metatron 0]

In response to that Daphne I''d say

1) True, but this is main place where NCISA committee members discuss football and other things, and tends to be the place where NCISA posts information about activities. When NCISA committee members answer questions on threads about NCISA activities surely they are then posting in their ''official'' capacity rather than as individuals (with a duty to respond in a professional manner)?

2) Whilst that''s true about wider society, it sounds a little complacent to accept that 500 members is ''ok'' - do you ever consider why more people don''t join? As refjezhitchen says, if Luton can get 800 members from a smaller fanbase then perhaps NCISA is under-achieving in this regard. I know I am put off joining by some of the responses to NCISA-related questions on here (see point 1).

3) "New committee members are always welcome - please make yourselves known on the night" - don''t they have to get their nominations in 14 days in advance then, or is that just for elected posts?

4) See point 2 - perhaps people aren''t engaged in a ''witch hunt'' but are curious about what NCISA''s role and objectives are and why its'' officers get so defensive if anyone asks them a straightforward question.

5) Fair enough.

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

Metatron stated:

In response to that Daphne I''d say 1) True, but this is main place where NCISA committee members discuss football and other things, and tends to be the place where NCISA posts information about activities. When NCISA committee members answer questions on threads about NCISA activities surely they are then posting in their ''official'' capacity rather than as individuals (with a duty to respond in a professional manner)?

----------------------

1) How do you know that this bb. is their MAIN place to discuss football and other things?

2) It has been stated on this bb. before  that committee members post their own opinions.  

[Metatron 0]

1) From having looked at WOTB, Kick It Off, carrowroad,net etc

2) Yes, I know, they post their own opinions in general (and I''m not saying they shouldn''t). However, there are times when they are answering a question about NCISA so they are therefore answering as ''the Chairman'' or ''Secretary'' or ''committee member''.

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="Metatron"]1) From having looked at WOTB, Kick It Off, carrowroad,net etc .[/quote]

Do you know their usernames for each of these websites?

Do you know which watering holes they use and whether they discuss football while frequenting these establishments?

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote user="Tangible Fixed Assets anyone"]

[quote user="Metatron"]1) From having looked at WOTB, Kick It Off, carrowroad,net etc .[/quote]

Do you know their usernames for each of these websites?

Do you know which watering holes they use and whether they discuss football while frequenting these establishments?

[/quote]yes, Yes we do, for our spies are ev-er-eee-where - Mwa ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaa  !!!!!one!!! (strokes white cat and looks terrifyingly smug...)

[Daphne 0]

Thanks for reply Metatron, hope I''ve answered some of your points below:

In response to that Daphne I''d say

1) True, but this is main place where NCISA committee members discuss football and other things, and tends to be the place where NCISA posts information about activities. When NCISA committee members answer questions on threads about NCISA activities surely they are then posting in their ''official'' capacity rather than as individuals (with a duty to respond in a professional manner)?

Yes this is most likely the main place that some of those committee members who use message boards do take part in discussions - I''m guessing, it certainly applies to 3 or 4 of us. We have discussed the issue of personal comments on public media at committee meetings - and we always post as individuals - but as you say, responding in a professional manner (hopefully). Sometimes however there are purely factual bits of info, such as public meetings, where this is a convenient advertising space. NCISA also gets some publicity for events from Radio Norfolk - it''s a matter of free advertising to as wide an audience as possible

2) Whilst that''s true about wider society, it sounds a little complacent to accept that 500 members is ''ok'' - do you ever consider why more people don''t join? As refjezhitchen says, if Luton can get 800 members from a smaller fanbase then perhaps NCISA is under-achieving in this regard. I know I am put off joining by some of the responses to NCISA-related questions on here (see point 1).

Apologies if I sounded complacent - 500 is not many out of those who support NCFC. However if you have been to any of our public meetings recently you will have found me on the door - plenty of people take forms and don''t send them back; others happily pay over the odds for entry, tell us we are doing a good job, but decline membership; other take the 1-year membership option because there is an issue with the club, and then don''t renew. I was pointing out that "joining" just doesn''t seem cool any more - and obviously came across as being quite happy with the status quo. It would be great to have the time and facility to analyse our membership and do some surveys to try and build numbers..... you can see where I am going!

3) "New committee members are always welcome - please make yourselves known on the night" - don''t they have to get their nominations in 14 days in advance then, or is that just for elected posts?

I can only tell you my own experience: I went to a NCISA forum having been a member for a few years. Roy Blower was in the chair and said there were always vacancies on the committee during the year - was anyone interested? Perhaps foolishly I went after the meeting and gave him my name. Some time later he rang me and asked to meet - and I was grilled for about an hour on my football and NCFC credentials. Then as there was a vacancy, I attended a committee meeting and was co-opted. Obviously then I had to stand for re-election at the next AGM. Other committee members have been similarly co-opted and re-elected. The only restriction as far as I can remember is that you have to have been a member for 3 months. Therefore if any member is interested - as I said, make yourself known so the process can start.

4) See point 2 - perhaps people aren''t engaged in a ''witch hunt'' but are curious about what NCISA''s role and objectives are and why its'' officers get so defensive if anyone asks them a straightforward question.

I can''t speak for anyone else - but this "defensive" tag is being applied frequently. The role and objectives of NCISA have been discussed on here at length in the last few months on other threads. The website is being overhauled and this info should be up there - if not I apologise and will chase it up. Personally I am certainly not in it for the glory, and don''t have time to defend the indefensible.

5) Fair enough.

Thanks!

Sorry if all the above is long-winded, seems self important or is full of errors - I have had virtually no sleep as the house next door caught fire at 2.30 this morning, we were evacuated onto the Green and we have had 6 fire appliances outside our front door most of the night. EDF have just finished reconnecting half the village after all the power was off. Not an excuse, but I feel my brain is a little tired! No injuries or loss of life!

[Metatron 0]

Daphne,

Many thanks for those answers - I appreciate the time you''ve taken to reply and the manner in which you''ve done so.

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote user="Tangible Fixed Assets anyone"]

[quote user="Metatron"]1) From having looked at WOTB, Kick It Off, carrowroad,net etc .[/quote]

Do you know their usernames for each of these websites?

Do you know which watering holes they use and whether they discuss football while frequenting these establishments?

[/quote]

yes, Yes we do, for our spies are ev-er-eee-where - Mwa ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaa  !!!!!one!!! (strokes white cat and looks terrifyingly smug...)
[/quote]

Ah! So you are the master spy. Lol!

[yellow hammer 0]

It''s opinion that NCISA has something of a "split personality". On the one hand it raises money for the academy and sponsors a member of the coaching staff (I believe my facts on this are up to date) which puts NCSIA inside the tent.

On the other hand NCISA is a critic of of the club when it feels the club is not looking after the best interests of the fans. This side of NCISA puts it outside of the tent.

Now I believe that both raising funds and looking after the best interests of the fans are both worthy and necessary functions. But I do believe that both functions being performed by the same organisation is a mistake because there will be so many times when there is a conflict of interests.

The current debate on whether it is right for NCISA to back a measure that deprives the club of funds is a very good example of the conflict that is built into the current organisation of NCISA

Now NCISA may argue that it is able to perform both functions, but it is my opinion that it cannot do both functions well because there is this conflict of interests.

So NCISA has to choose what it wants to be. Either a fund raising organisation inside the tent or a watchdog outside the tent.

Personally I think that fund raising should be left to groups such as FONCY or the Trust who both have specific agendas that fans can choose to support or not, as they wish.

NCISA should become the guardian of fans'' interests. This would narrow the focus of NCISA and make it a much more effective organisation.

[blahblahblah 2]

Interesting post Hammer.  The thing is, in order to stand up for the fans'' interests, don''t they have to be "in the tent" ?   And would they get to stay "In the Tent" if they stopped raising money for the club ?  I would have thought that being able to talk to the people in the tent would be more effective than shouting at them to get heard from outside.