Why the Doc bashing

[Dean Coneys boots 1,398]

It is interesting to note how those posting later...ie who were actually AT the game- seem less intolerant of the Doc than those on the thread earlier.

I also think many need to wake up WE ARE IN L1....John Terry is not about to sign for us. Doc does have his faults, speed being the most obvious, but for this level he is up there with the very best.

Yesterday we were playing a team 58 places above us whose Goalkeeper alone cost more in trnasfer fees than our entire 11. And we showed spirit, character and gave it a good go even when 3 down. So many positives from where we were not long ago....Lambert has clearly instilled spirit early on.

Yet some on here moan, grumble and spew poison at the Doc - as if he should have kept the £9million Kenwyn (who will skin many a prem defender this season) quiet. It does not seem very fair.

LAst year Doc was also at fault on occasion but he was one of the few who showed passion and looked like he cared. This year he remains better than other options we have, IMO, and can do the job.

So in summary- not perfect but then perfect players do not ply their trade in L1. I do however think he is a solid Champ level player

[ZLF 271]

[quote user="Danielt88"]I think this was hopefully Doherty''s last chance and he blew it in my mind. Whilst Spillane showed his naivete and Askou makes errors too, I''d still rather have them that Doherty who terrifies me. Also, Otsemobor was actually quite good last night apart from going absent for their second goal and giving Reid all the time for a world class finish.[/quote]

Ots was only part of the problem for the second goal which was a team balls up ,  but takes far more of the blame in the third where again he went awol,  inexcusable when they started the move in their own half on our left flank - how did Reid get THAT much space of the third when Ots has so much pace????  Reid is hardly electrically quick is he..

[Daniel Taylor 0]

[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

[quote user="Danielt88"]I think this was hopefully Doherty''s last chance and he blew it in my mind. Whilst Spillane showed his naivete and Askou makes errors too, I''d still rather have them that Doherty who terrifies me. Also, Otsemobor was actually quite good last night apart from going absent for their second goal and giving Reid all the time for a world class finish.[/quote]

Ots was only part of the problem for the second goal which was a team balls up ,  but takes far more of the blame in the third where again he went awol,  inexcusable when they started the move in their own half on our left flank - how did Reid get THAT much space of the third when Ots has so much pace????  Reid is hardly electrically quick is he..

[/quote]

 

True. I suppose I just don''t expect that much from him defensively these days because of the evidence over the last few years. Reid isn''t quick that''s true but our whole defence is shaky at best and Otsemobor should have been back but he seems to abandon things as a lost cause pretty quickly.

[jimidack 0]

I still can''t agree with any of this, his positioning was terrible, he panicked  when he had a free header or attempted a long pass, and it was no different then any other time. On a night when players like Doc, Whaley etc had a chance to impress the new boss in a competitive match, Doc looked awful. I don''t know what who SKY, Lakey and co were watching but it certainly wasn''t the Doc I saw last night.

[The Butler 0]

Interesting that watching the replay of the goals that Otsemobor was back defending, covering the middle when the CB''s had gone missing.

No cover for him down the right side.

Doc was signed as a Prem defender, to now say you can''t blame him for being pulled apart by prem strikers speaks volumes.

The guy is a poor defender, that he is even considerd as one of our best speaks volumes for the level we have reached!

Just look at our record since Worthy signed him (I still think as revenge against the boards decision not to back him with Ashton), it''s dire.

Can''t be botherd to add up goal against for the last 4 years but must be a fairlly large number (anyone?)

Whilst Mr D is at the heart of our defence then this club is going nowhere but down!!

[Duffman 0]

[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

[quote user="Duffman"]Reid''s second goal was not semmys fault. You need to open your eyes and watch it again. Semmy made a great run down the wing but Whaley ignored him and ran inside and gave the ball away and they hit us on the break.[/quote]

Whaley lostt he ball too cheaply.

Ots did make a great run,  but did you see where the rest of our defensive line was????  Its was 15-20 yards behind Whaley.   That meant that Ots was horrendously out of position and conceeding huge amounts of space to Reid or any other midfielder.   If whaley is that central and deep, the defence have to defend and not pretend to be right wingers.   Its the midfields role to either make the option wide or cover the gap Ots leaves.   And that was my point - Ots leaves too many gaps and gets no cover from his midfield.  Hence the goal was a team effort - from us shooting ourselves in the foot for failing to defend  

[/quote]You really should watch it again.  Whaley was in the RB slot so Semmy made the over lap run which should have been picked out but Whalley, for some reason, decided against passing down the line and cut inside.    I don''t see how you can blame Semmy for that, he was trying to get forward and was assuming Whalley was going to play him in and sit in for him at RB

[Mook 0]

Butler, this "we''ve had him 5 years and we''ve been relegated twice" view is way too simplistic. He''s been constantly one of the better performers in some really terrible teams.

However, I can''t defend the indefensible. Last night he was awful, confidence looked shot. We looked like we might be able to make a decent game of it at 3-1, then he decides to NOT watch the ball as it comes into the area and lo - Sunderland score. That was one of many mistakes, sadly.

[Bury Yellow 2]

Can''t be bothered to read through this thread.

OP - glad you don''t sit anywhere near us, you would have a difficult time! I suggest you go and watch a team in the Conference. The Doc is a total liability.

Best decision of the night from Lambert - give Doc enough rope to hang himself and makes Holt captain.

Absolutely marvellous.

Must go my sides are aching

[Lenny-boy 0]

Doc is as hard as teak, but is limited in ability. With Spillane out suspended does that mean Nelson or Doc. will start.

There is still time in the transfer window.....

[Dronny Canary 0]

It''s only "opinion" but I don''t think we have had a decent CB since Malky was shown the door.  We need someone like him with a bit of presence and leadership.  As a team too often we defend as a bunch of "headless chickens".  It''s easy to keep blaming the Doc, and he is certainly as much to blame as the others, but so many of you are blind to what other people are doing badly because you''re so keen to focus just on Doherty.  At the same time, people on here have been trying to make excuses for Spillane''s clear red card, saying he was "unlucky"!  I can only imagine the reaction if it had have been Doc who''d done this!  None of our four main CBs this season fill me with any great confidence but I feel they''d all perform better if those around them showed a bit of responsibility in their contribution to team defence.  Some of you need to open your eyes and look at who else isn''t doing their job as well as Doc.

[Captain Holt 520]

Poor Doc. Absolutely shocking.

Arguably our best player last season but I think he''s past it now. Put him up against a half decent striker and he doesn''t stand a chance. Askou and Nelson for me on saturday.

[ZLF 271]

[quote user="Captain Holt"]Nelson for me on saturday.[/quote]

[:''(]

How quickly you forget

[Duffman 0]

[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

[quote user="Captain Holt"]Nelson for me on saturday.[/quote]

[:''(]

How quickly you forget

[/quote]That is rich coming from someone who is defending Dohertys performance last night.

[ZLF 271]

[quote user="Duffman"][quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

[quote user="Captain Holt"]Nelson for me on saturday.[/quote]

[:''(]

How quickly you forget

[/quote]

That is rich coming from someone who is defending Dohertys performance last night.

[/quote]

Read again. I said historically, and factually, the team is better with doc than without him.    I said docs performance was poor,  just not as bad as some of his team mates,  that the whole team defended poorly and to solely lay into Doc today was wrong.   I pointed out that several pros commented that he has a good game,  upto MOTM,  who for me was clearly Lappin and then Holt.

Doc was streets ahead of Nelson against Colchester,  again that does not mean his was good,  but just demonstrates how poor our defence is and how difficult the choices to identify better than Doc has been for this club and several managers.

[ZLF 271]

[quote user="Duffman"][quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

[quote user="Captain Holt"]Nelson for me on saturday.[/quote]

[:''(]

How quickly you forget

[/quote]

That is rich coming from someone who is defending Dohertys performance last night.

[/quote]

At least I was doing some defending - more than the sorry yellow shirts have shown lately 

[Duffman 0]

[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"][quote user="Duffman"][quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

[quote user="Captain Holt"]Nelson for me on saturday.[/quote]

[:''(]

How quickly you forget

[/quote]That is rich coming from someone who is defending Dohertys performance last night.[/quote]

Read again. I said historically, and factually, the team is better with doc than without him.    I said docs performance was poor,  just not as bad as some of his team mates,  that the whole team defended poorly and to solely lay into Doc today was wrong.   I pointed out that several pros commented that he has a good game,  upto MOTM,  who for me was clearly Lappin and then Holt.

Doc was streets ahead of Nelson against Colchester,  again that does not mean his was good,  but just demonstrates how poor our defence is and how difficult the choices to identify better than Doc has been for this club and several managers.

[/quote]I think you are far too quick to write off Nelson though.   Yes he was awful on the opening day but this was his first game playing in front of a crowd of 25,000+ fans and I think he deserves at least another chance.  Going by the way this club has supported Doherty I would say that is the least Nelson should get.Nelson and Doherty does not look like a partnership that will flourish but out of those two, Nelson deserves another chance on the pitch.   I agree the whole defence was poor and has been all season but Gary Doherty just seems to be at fault for critical goals i..e. the first goal last night was going to be crucial for Sunderland.   First 12 games of last season we conceeded 15 goals with Kennedy and Dejan.Then Dejan gets injured so in comes the Doc........The next 12 games we conceeded 28 and Doherty got himself a nice red card in one of those against Forest. How can people still defend the Doc?   He clearly cannot. 

[ZLF 271]

[quote user="Duffman"][quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"][quote user="Duffman"][quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

[quote user="Captain Holt"]Nelson for me on saturday.[/quote]

[:''(]

How quickly you forget

[/quote]

That is rich coming from someone who is defending Dohertys performance last night.

[/quote]

Read again. I said historically, and factually, the team is better with doc than without him.    I said docs performance was poor,  just not as bad as some of his team mates,  that the whole team defended poorly and to solely lay into Doc today was wrong.   I pointed out that several pros commented that he has a good game,  upto MOTM,  who for me was clearly Lappin and then Holt.

Doc was streets ahead of Nelson against Colchester,  again that does not mean his was good,  but just demonstrates how poor our defence is and how difficult the choices to identify better than Doc has been for this club and several managers.

[/quote]

I think you are far too quick to write off Nelson though.   Yes he was awful on the opening day but this was his first game playing in front of a crowd of 25,000+ fans and I think he deserves at least another chance.  Going by the way this club has supported Doherty I would say that is the least Nelson should get.

Nelson and Doherty does not look like a partnership that will flourish but out of those two, Nelson deserves another chance on the pitch.  

I agree the whole defence was poor and has been all season but Gary Doherty just seems to be at fault for critical goals i..e. the first goal last night was going to be crucial for Sunderland.  

First 12 games of last season we conceeded 15 goals with Kennedy and Dejan.

Then Dejan gets injured so in comes the Doc........

The next 12 games we conceeded 28 and Doherty got himself a nice red card in one of those against Forest.

How can people still defend the Doc?   He clearly cannot. 

[/quote]

Facts is facts - of the games last season where Doc started we ended up with 10% more points per game than those he did not start.  Same the season before.  And that includes the 12 game slot you mention.

He is not playing well,  agreed.  But why chose to start with someone who was a class below Doc???  And whom many pundits thought was our best player last night?? Better than Spillane for example?

[Dronny Canary 0]

To solve the problem of trying to scratch around from our poor squad to find four "defenders" worthy of playing, why don''t we just play 3 at the back (we seem to half the time anyway!)

[Duffman 0]

A class below in one game?   A 7-1 demolition where every player, Grant Holt included, looked absolute rubbish.At least I am basing my opinion on 4 years of watching the Doc defend at Carrow Road.  Your opinion is based on one ''freak'' game.

[Baldyboy 0]

going back to the original question, why the doc bashing? simples three words, cos he''s s**te!!!! hes a donkey and thats being kind i think. hes not even good enough for non league!!!

[ellis206 0]

[quote user="Duffman"]A class below in one game?   A 7-1 demolition where every player, Grant Holt included, looked absolute rubbish.At least I am basing my opinion on 4 years of watching the Doc defend at Carrow Road.  Your opinion is based on one ''freak'' game.[/quote]And one of those seasons winning player of the year, and last season winning 3rd place in player of the season. Guess your opinion is different to the majority of Norwich fans

[Clean Shirt 0]

[quote user="Dronny Canary"]To solve the problem of trying to scratch around from our poor squad to find four "defenders" worthy of playing, why don''t we just play 3 at the back (we seem to half the time anyway!)[/quote]

Gunius were already dodgy in defense I know what will make that better lets remove one of them thats bound to work [;)]

[Duffman 0]

[quote user="ellis206"][quote user="Duffman"]A class below in one game?   A 7-1 demolition where every player, Grant Holt included, looked absolute rubbish.At least I am basing my opinion on 4 years of watching the Doc defend at Carrow Road.  Your opinion is based on one ''freak'' game.[/quote]And one of those seasons winning player of the year, and last season winning 3rd place in player of the season. Guess your opinion is different to the majority of Norwich fans[/quote]Yes it is and I am glad it is.   I want to see decent players at Norwich City whilst the majority of Norwich fans seem to have accepted Gary Doherty as a decent standard of player for this club.   Look where that has got us. 

[Yellow Hotrod 0]

If the doc was really as bad as people on here are saying then Kenwyne Jones, Frazier Campbell and co would have stuck a lot more than 4 past us.Some people are talking as if he''s never ever played well and never ever done anything good in his entire canary career - rubbish. He''s had good spells and bad spells. I''ve voted for him for player of the season before and he deserved it. He had some good play last night which isn''t getting any credit and he had some bad play which is being blown out of proportion.When Lambert came in and said that some players needed a confidence boost, do you think possibly that the doc was one of those? He''s the only one from the GK and the two centre backs of the 7-1 showing who is still in the team. His confidence will be shot from that, but he deserves credit for playing on. He''s not at his best right now, but to simply say he''s always been rubbish is misguided. It feels like there''s a bit of Doc hysteria creeping in to this board.

[Shaun Tilly Lace 0]

Doc?? He''s about as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike and as safe as a chocolate fireguard.

[Mook 0]

[quote user="Pablos pubic perm"]Doc?? He''s about as useful as an ashtray on a motorbike and as safe as a chocolate fireguard.[/quote]And your jokes are from the 80s.

[ncfcstar 287]

[quote user="Duffman"]A class below in one game?   A 7-1 demolition where every player, Grant Holt included, looked absolute rubbish.At least I am basing my opinion on 4 years of watching the Doc defend at Carrow Road.  Your opinion is based on one ''freak'' game.[/quote]Completely agree Duffman, I got slated last night by people who clearly never go apart from cheap cup games for calling him ''Donkerty''.  It''s unbelievable that these people even think they deserve an opinion of him.  I was sitting last night thinking how on earth he has survived almost 6 years at this club, he is a complete liability.

[ZLF 271]

The facts are there whether you I or anyone else goes to the games or not.

My opinion,  which is based on a combination of what I see at games as a many years season ticket holder and the facts, is that Doc is part of a team that defends poorly,  is currently in a rough spell,  who gives his all,  has consistently out performed his partner and most of his team ad squad mates season after season and remains the best centre back option at the club as SPillane, Nelson and Askou have only ever shown ability at a lower level than this and have looked poorer in the middle than an even under performing doc this season.

I think our worst defender remains Ots - but I have never felt the need to call him playground names like Donkerty - when discussing his footballing capabilities   

[ncfcstar 287]

[quote user="ZippersLeftFoot"]

The facts are there whether you I or anyone else goes to the games or not.

My opinion,  which is based on a combination of what I see at games as a many years season ticket holder and the facts, is that Doc is part of a team that defends poorly,  is currently in a rough spell,  who gives his all,  has consistently out performed his partner and most of his team ad squad mates season after season and remains the best centre back option at the club as SPillane, Nelson and Askou have only ever shown ability at a lower level than this and have looked poorer in the middle than an even under performing doc this season.

I think our worst defender remains Ots - but I have never felt the need to call him playground names like Donkerty - when discussing his footballing capabilities   

[/quote]I''m sorry but I don''t agree.He has been found wanting on numerous occasions, and is guaranteed to concede dangerous free kicks in every match in which he plays.  I''m not saying that he is necessarily worse than the others because in all honesty they are unproven at the moment.  But, Doherty has proven to me over the past few years that he is not up to the job and has cost us points at vital occasions.  Yes, your facts may state that Doherty has won us more points etc, but my eyes show me a player who is a complete liability and one we should aim to replace.  I do agree that Otsemebor is the worst defender around, he quite simply can''t defend, and despite his pace as soon as he is in control of the ball he stops.I don''t believe that it is a ''playground name'', it''s clearly in jest and a bit of banter.

[Mook 0]

[quote user="ncfcstar"]He has been found wanting on numerous occasions, and is guaranteed to concede dangerous free kicks in every match in which he plays.....  But, Doherty has proven to me over the past few years that he is not up to the job and has cost us points at vital occasions.[/quote]This kind of statement gets on my t*ts. I just want to be clear here - I''m not disagreeing with your point in general, but there are two major things you are missing.Firstly, the most dangerous free kicks last night were given away by Lappin, with a shockingly crap attempt at a tackle on the edge of the box, and Spillane who had 2 yards on his man and was overtaken in 5 yards, with a stupid push. Why do these not get highlighted? All I can see is generous praise for Lappin and some sympathy for Spillane. One rule for one, and one rule for another, which is silly.Secondly, Doherty is a centre back. Yes, he NEEDS to let go of his man, we all know that. But any mistimed tackle, whether it be Doherty''s mistake or some good skill from the striker, WILL result in a dangerous situation. It goes with the territory of being the last line of defence. It''s like saying our goalkeeper''s mistakes lead to dangerous situations... that''s cos he''s in goal. The same applies to Doherty.I''d like to make it clear that I thought he was inexcusably bad last night, and for the first time in his Norwich career looks bereft of confidence and well out of form. He needs to be rested, but we''ll need him back before the end of the season, I guarantee that.