Why the Doc bashing

[wedgie 0]

Anyone who looks twice their age deserves to be picked on

[grantroederdisaster 0]

[quote user="Metatron"]"We had all this Sh*t last season when we got supposedly better CBs in messrs Stefanovic and Kennedy yet still the Doc was our best CB last season and was one of our best players not that, that was difficult!"

er...Stef got injured fairly early in the season afetr a very promising start with Kennedy alongside him.

Had Stef stayed fit then he would have been the best CB by a country mile - and he would have been Captain.

Stef''s injury meant a return for the Doc who, I agree, played some decent games. However, his errors make everyone around him nervous.

Last Saturday the CB pairing looked pretty calm and assured, apart from the two errors. Doc looks like an accident waiting to happen with his rugby-tackling ways and awful headers (always up in the air).

This is not something new, or a ''bandwagon''. I''ve never been convinced by his ability as a CB.[/quote]

Stefanovic made more mistakes in his few games for us than what the Doc did all season. Yes the guy looked calm and often classy when playing the ball about but his defending wasn''t as good the Docs - fact!

We only got Kennedy because he was a long term crock. Yes I''ll agree that he looked like if he was fit he''d be hell of a CB (who we would never of got) but he wasn''t and his last games for us he was a slow liability!

On Saturday we were playing one of the poorest attacking sides I think I''ve ever seen at Carrow Road who only scored cause Askou gave them the 1st one and Spillane did near enough the same for their 2nd. Against a decent League 1 side messrs Askou and the not strong enough in the air Spillane would been caught out much more!

While the Doc is limited hes still out best option at CB and we could do with another decent CB!

But still lets blame everyting on the Doc!

Where was the ginger Pele when JFK was shot?!

[Metatron 0]

"but his defending wasn''t as good the Docs - fact!"

No, that''s your OPINION, not a ''FACT!''

There''s a difference y''know.

I thought Stef looked like exactly the kind of leader on the pitch that we needed post-Dion.

I''d also think his defending was 100 times better than the Doc - that''s just my opinion though.

[CanaryColt 0]

Doc''s time should be up, thanks to the bloke for the commitment he is shown but he is just not good enough.

At fault for the 1st and 4th Goals. The 4th he had the man marked, ran directly to meet the ball perfect defending, then DUCKED! That ball was on his head the whole way until he actually got there. The 1st, well, typical Doherty, falling over and looking a prat. I think even he would hold his hand up for that goal.

Now the rest of the game, he turns his back on the ball too much for a defender, nicely portrayed by the through ball in the second half that hit him on the back of the legs. Also in the second half, he did make a nice clearing tackle on the edge of the box, taking it away from the Sunderland forward just before he shot, but to be honest, the reason the guy was in the opportunity was because Doherty was playing him onside in the build up, when Spillane, Otsemobor and Lappin pushed up when the ball was played across the Sunderand midfield he stood back and allowed that space to be created.

We appear to have it a bit backwards at the moment, when we have the ball, the defensive line is rather high, then when the opposition get it we are too deep. This makes it harder for the midfield to do their part in defending, as they have more ground to cover. One other thing i have noticed about to be fair, both of the centre halves tonight, was that they didnt show for the ball at the back. dropping off and creating space for the midfield when we had the ball. Throw ins in our half, if either of them could drop 10 yards and show for it, it pulls an opponent towards them and allows people like Adeyemi and Tudur-Jones to have a simple lay off for the ball.

Fair play he wins his fair share of headers, but at the same time he is clambering over the back of the striker. He can defend long ball, only if he has a free run at the ball, he drops as the ball is kicked well and then attacks it once he has judged the line. It''s when he is in tight marking and when he is turned that he has a problem. I think it was Campbell that out ran him in the second half on a run towards the Snakepit, despite Doherty have a few yards head start, he should have used his strength and not let him run around him shielding that ball whilst going for it. Whilst i admit he can get his head on alot of balls played into the defence, he doesn''t direct the clearance well. Too often i saw the Sunderland midfield pick up his defensive headers. I think he, and to be honest the rest of the defence for us, learn to head the ball back to the keeper. The Sunderland defence did this well and it instantly stops an attack if done. I just dont see it from our defence enough, if at all.

Sorry the post veered abit off topic but i think Doherty just sums up well whats wrong with our defence. It''s time for a change, he is the only constant from the Premier League demise, he has gone through tw relegations with us. Just shocks me that people think he is good, i dont want to come across as saying i''m more knowledgable abot this than those, but from what i''ve noticed everytime Doherty has done something well, there has normally been a mistake by him that has caused it, or dealt with it earlier in the build up of the attack.

 

[GJP 79]

Stef is a lovely footballer. He''s played at the top level and it shows. Only thing is that he''s very much the wrong side of 30 and his legs have gone.

Interestingly enough Gary Doherty has also played top flight football.

I wonder whether Askou, Nelson or Spillane will ever play at that level.

[Metatron 0]

Excellent post CanaryColt

Sometimes, a reasoned analysis needs to be lengthy!

[grantroederdisaster 0]

[quote user="Metatron"]"but his defending wasn''t as good the Docs - fact!"

No, that''s your OPINION, not a ''FACT!''

There''s a difference y''know.

I thought Stef looked like exactly the kind of leader on the pitch that we needed post-Dion.

I''d also think his defending was 100 times better than the Doc - that''s just my opinion though.[/quote]

But the difference between me and the crowd baying for the Docs head is that I deal in the truth not half truths blinded by the need to join in the ridiculous campaign against the Doc which is very over the top!

[chris_sabian 0]

No idea how people can make judgement of Stefanovic so easily - we haven''t really seen him play since he was injured, how can we know "his legs are gone". Remember this is league one, his positioning alone would probably be enough to cover for his lack of pace if it really was that bad.As for Doherty, well, what a shambles. By far the worst player on the pitch. Consistently fouls and makes mistakes, and is far too slow. Strikers must love playing against him.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="ricardo"]

What a lot of pathetic nonsense from the Doc haters. He won virtually everything in the air and restricted Kenwyne Jones to very few chances.

He had a decent game against good Premiership strikers. A lot of this critisism is getting well over the top

[/quote]

Well done Ricardo - the voice of reason once again. Now unless we sign someone better, and we all always hope for someone better, I reckon the best pairing for Saturday would be Doc and Askou. I have been lucky enough to have seen every game this season and these two look the best we have available. But whatever pairing Lambert decides on he should styick to it and allow them to forge a partnership. The same with centre mid. The best pairing for me would be Hughes and Adeyemi. Adeyemi is going to be a top player and I''m not surprised that Prem clubs are already sniffing. The same up front, my best pair would be Holt and Cody. I also rate Luke Daley but thought he was too easily moved off the ball tonight. But these were experienced prem defenders.

We need to develop strength and understanding through the spine of the team. If the Doc isn''t good enough then we need to sign someone else because he''s the best we''ve got.

 

[GJP 79]

[quote user="chris_sabian"]

No idea how people can make judgement of Stefanovic so easily - we haven''t really seen him play since he was injured, how can we know "his legs are gone".

Remember this is league one, his positioning alone would probably be enough to cover for his lack of pace if it really was that bad.

[/quote]

Well mainly because it was obvious he couldn''t run last season before he got injured.

Which leads me on to point two, positioning really wouldn''t be enough if a quick lad upfront got a run on him. Again, we saw that last season before he got injured.

That said, we could do worse than give Stef a game. Assuming he wants a game for us.

[Metatron 0]

"But the difference between me and the crowd baying for the Docs head is that I deal in the truth not half truths blinded by the need to join in the ridiculous campaign against the Doc which is very over the top! "

Again, you are stating your opinion as a ''truth''.

I might be right or I might be wrong about the Doc but I''ve been critical of his ability to play at CB since we signed him so I''m not "joining in" some "ridiculous campaign": I am giving you my opinion of him as a player and my opinion is that he''s poor and should only be in the team as a last resort.

You disagree. That''s fine.

Ultimately, Paul Lambert will decide which one of us is right!

[grantroederdisaster 0]

[quote user="Metatron"]"But the difference between me and the crowd baying for the Docs head is that I deal in the truth not half truths blinded by the need to join in the ridiculous campaign against the Doc which is very over the top! "

Again, you are stating your opinion as a ''truth''.

I might be right or I might be wrong about the Doc but I''ve been critical of his ability to play at CB since we signed him so I''m not "joining in" some "ridiculous campaign": I am giving you my opinion of him as a player and my opinion is that he''s poor and should only be in the team as a last resort.

You disagree. That''s fine.

Ultimately, Paul Lambert will decide which one of us is right![/quote]

He certainly will and at the moment our best 2 options at CB are Askou and the Doc in MY opinion of course!!

I''m not overly impressed with any of our CBs so far but we''ve had all this Doc bashing before and its surprising how few CBs below the Premiership are around that are better than the ginger one!

[Mason 47 1,373]

Tonight my dad thought that Doherty had been sent off. He has no problems distinguishing players normally, so I can only assume its become habit to react with ''Oh flip its Doherty'' in that situation now.

There was criticism of Theoklitos for causing a confidence drain with his first mistake against Colchester, which escalated. We had been playing well before they scored their first and all I saw was the same thing happening again, our team taking a body blow from a mistake and as if on cue, it was 0-2. I dont hate the Doc, but its time to try something else because he is too easily exploited.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="Metatron"]"But the difference between me and the crowd baying for the Docs head is that I deal in the truth not half truths blinded by the need to join in the ridiculous campaign against the Doc which is very over the top! " Again, you are stating your opinion as a ''truth''. I might be right or I might be wrong about the Doc but I''ve been critical of his ability to play at CB since we signed him so I''m not "joining in" some "ridiculous campaign": I am giving you my opinion of him as a player and my opinion is that he''s poor and should only be in the team as a last resort. You disagree. That''s fine. Ultimately, Paul Lambert will decide which one of us is right![/quote]

Yeah right Metatron![:)]

Worthy, Grant, Roeder, Gunn and various caretakers have either all been blind to Docs deficiencies or they have already passed judgement on which of you is right. If Paul Lambert puts the Doc out to grass then it could be said Doc Haters are still 4-1 down[:O]

Do I hear "we''re gonna win 5-4"[:-*][:^)]

If Lambert signs someone better we''ll all be happy [Y]

 

[Metatron 0]

Nutty, much as I respect your tenure as a long-running poster on this board, your constant defence of Worthy is rather sad.

At a pre-season dinner 2 years ago (when Grant had made Shackell captain), i chatted to Doc who was pleasant enough. His comment then was that Worthington had asked him if he could play up front as well as at centre back (ie kill two birds with one stone) and Doc had said ''no'' and that he''d come so long as he was played at CB.

Worthington paid £750,000 for him and then played Doc as first choice centre-forward in the opening games of our Premiership season. Doc did what he could with good grace.

My doubts about Worthington were confirmed and he should have been sacked before Xmas when we struggled to win a single game, in no small part down to his decision to play a CB up front when he could have spent £750,000 on a proven striker.

[Longy 1]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="Metatron"]"But the difference between me and the crowd baying for the Docs head is that I deal in the truth not half truths blinded by the need to join in the ridiculous campaign against the Doc which is very over the top! " Again, you are stating your opinion as a ''truth''. I might be right or I might be wrong about the Doc but I''ve been critical of his ability to play at CB since we signed him so I''m not "joining in" some "ridiculous campaign": I am giving you my opinion of him as a player and my opinion is that he''s poor and should only be in the team as a last resort. You disagree. That''s fine. Ultimately, Paul Lambert will decide which one of us is right![/quote]

Yeah right Metatron![:)]

Worthy, Grant, Roeder, Gunn and various caretakers have either all been blind to Docs deficiencies or they have already passed judgement on which of you is right. If Paul Lambert puts the Doc out to grass then it could be said Doc Haters are still 4-1 down[:O]

Do I hear "we''re gonna win 5-4"[:-*][:^)]

If Lambert signs someone better we''ll all be happy [Y]

 

[/quote]Yeah I bet all those managers are thinking now, what a great decision it was to put Doherty at the back............................................................... Oh wait they all got sacked and were failure in Doherty''s time at the club.There are arguements for Doherty staying at the club and playing regularly this isn''t one of the.

[Brendo 0]

Well to be honest, he did alright considering the strike force he was up against.

We need a new defender. Well 2 really. Spillane, Askou, Doc and Nelson all have their own qualities, but all have things which for me, all dont seem good enough. Why couldnt we have just got lambert in at the start of the season :@

Lappin LM!

When hoolahan is playing, he looks good and the rest of the midfield look bad, because when he is playing, the midfield has no shape and he doesnt actually create much really!

He takes people on but I dont remember him making many oportunities lately. Lappin assisted 2 on saturday.

[nutty nigel 7,509]

Do you and Largey not have a sense of humour Metatron? Read my post for what it is.

I don''t post for respect, I post my opinion. My opinion is not worth anymore than others just because I am a long running poster on this board. It is however worth the same and my post count is irrelevant in this.

This is way off topic now but you are right, Worthy could have signed a striker for the first part of our prem season. The striker he wanted was Ashton. He wasn''t backed. He got the blame as the scapegoat of that time, but later accused the board of being reactive and not proactive by signing Ashton in January. I have consistantly posted that not signing Ashton in the August is the main reason we were relegated.

£750,000 does not buy a Prem striker I''m afraid. Grant paid more than that for Curo.

 

[Metatron 0]

Nutty, sorry if that came across as a bit of an attack on you. I was just trying to make a point that the person who signed Doc didn''t even think he was a great CB.

I enjoy your posts and respect your opinion (even when you are wrong!)...so onwards and upwards.

:o)

[nutty nigel 7,509]

No probs Metatron [Y]

 

[Houston Canary 0]

Donk has played in 2 home games this year and we have conceded 11 goals in them.

His "only 1" mistake lead to 3 goals as the team, and specifically the defense, became quickly deflated by that act of buffoonery, much like happened when Colchester went from 1 up to 3 up in a matter of a few minutes. He assisted on Sunderland''s 4th goal with his header to the back of the other defender''s legs (OTJ, I think).

The team lacks offense when he is on the pitch because the midfield spends too much time too far back to create sustained attacks in the opponent''s end.

His distribution is awful.

AND, he was signed to be a Prem quality defender and there are comments defending him on other posts about how he is definite quality for League 1, a league in which the team''s performances when he is on the pitch have been brutal.  It seems no matter what division he is in, he screws up a lot and wrecks the team''s confidence.

[sgncfc 1,221]

Doc'' problem is his lack of pace. He is always targeted by opposition managers to try to get "one on one" for their pacier strikers, which means he drops deep to compensate. The defensive line then drops with him leaving a hole to midfield which gets continually bypassed. It''s all about shape and individual players doing their jobs. Lambert will sort this out - our players are good enough but our teamwork isn''t because Gunn and Butterworth (and Roeder/Grant before them) had very little idea about team organisation. Colchester and Sunderland both exploited a lack of pace. You get out of League One by being organised and consistent. You have to keep a higher defensive line and have some pace available for covering the runners (which is what Clingan used to do). Once we start keeping some clean sheets we will be fine.

As for tonight, I thought Lappin was excellent again. Whalley and Semi both hopeless and I think that will be the last we see of that combination on the right. Personally, I don''t think Hoolahan is up to it - every time he gets the ball he slows everything down and I would love to see his pass completion stats which I suspect are very poor. Tudur Jones is promising, as are Adeyemi and Smith. Don''t like Martin - arrogant little s**t who doesn''t try hard enough and thinks he''s too good for us. I suspect he is poison. Daley worked hard and I thought showed some good touches.

Suspect Theo will start his rehab on Saturday and will be in the team at Hartlepool. Would like to see Smith at right back, Drury at left back with Askou and Stephanovic in the middle. Midfield of TJ, Hughes, Adeyemi and Lappin. Up front, Holt and A N Other.

Gunn said that he bought leaders but I haven''t seen any yet. My big worry about the team, with the notable exceptions of Holt and Askou is the lack of aggression. Frankly we just pussy around too much and allow the opposition to out muscle us in almost every challenge. Oh, for a Trevor Hockey!! For that reason I would like to see Russell and Setephanovic return, but suspect that won''t happen.

[Duffman 0]

Culverhouse''s reaction to dohertys slip tells it''s own story. He will not play for this club, as a first choice, anymore.

We will never win anything with this clown at the back. Worthy,Grant,Roeder and Gunn all fell victim to his ability and paid with there jobs for blindly continuing to play him.

Yes it was kenweyne jones but he got turned just as easy against kevin lisbie on the opening day.

[ZLF 271]

[quote user="ricardo"]

What a lot of pathetic nonsense from the Doc haters. He won virtually everything in the air and restricted Kenwyne Jones to very few chances.

He had a decent game against good Premiership strikers. A lot of this critisism is getting well over the top

[/quote]

 

Well said Ricardo  - but I fear we are pi$$ing in the wind with the blind sheep like prejudice here.

The difference between Docs performance and the ones of Askou and Spillance on sat were enormous - both doc and askou made errors that led to goals,  yet doc overall perofrmance was far stronger than either alternatives either today or on sat.  No - Doc is not playing as well as he can,  but its still better than the alternatives.   Yes we do need to buy but we have tried to find better for 4 years now and still NOT ONE PLAYER has been a better or more consistent defender than Doc - in any of the positions.

If people want to criticise the defending then the focus should be on where the efff Jon Otsemebor was when Reid was picking his spot for his well finished goals and why yet again our midfield - right side esp - were when the back four were being torn apart?  Ots, Whaley, OTJ in particular AGAIN went AWOL - and did for the majority of the game.

We why let the truth, together with the opinions of some seasons pros and commentators get in the way of some good old myopic norfolk witchhunting?

[ZLF 271]

[quote user="Duffman"]Culverhouse''s reaction to dohertys slip tells it''s own story. He will not play for this club, as a first choice, anymore. We will never win anything with this clown at the back. Worthy,Grant,Roeder and Gunn all fell victim to his ability and paid with there jobs for blindly continuing to play him. Yes it was kenweyne jones but he got turned just as easy against kevin lisbie on the opening day.[/quote]

Of course the slip effing frustrated us all - but if you think Cullys reaction was solely due to that you will be wrong. Players slip regularly but if the team defends well unless its the last man how often does it lead to a goal??? 

Tainio is a defensive midfielder ffs yet neither adeyemi nor OTJ tracked his slow run into the box.   The whole team defended abysmally.

[Duffman 0]

Reid''s second goal was not semmys fault. You need to open your eyes and watch it again. Semmy made a great run down the wing but Whaley ignored him and ran inside and gave the ball away and they hit us on the break.

[ZLF 271]

[quote user="sgncfc"]

Doc'' Suspect Theo will start his rehab on Saturday and will be in the team at Hartlepool. Would like to see Smith at right back, Drury at left back with Askou and Stephanovic in the middle. Midfield of TJ, Hughes, Adeyemi and Lappin. Up front, Holt and A N Other.

[/quote]

I have seen little in OTJ other than a decent shot.   Lightweight and makles little impact in the middle and routinely fails to track his runner,  Adeyemi far better IMO.  Without a doubt a midfield of Korey S and Hughes to start, and WLY and Lappin will be back after their virtuoso performances on sat.  Class simply endures and this [aid has it

[Canary Wundaboy 1,358]

The Doc''s been awful since he came to this club. He treats every encounter like a wrestling match, his arms are ALWAYS over his opponent, tugging at the shirt, he gives away free kicks like candy, has the turning circle of a small truck and is far too slow. He is a liability and the record at this club since he arrived shows this clearly, terrible amounts of goals given away and 2 relegations as a result.Oh to have Mackay and Fleming back at their primes.

[ZLF 271]

[quote user="Duffman"]Reid''s second goal was not semmys fault. You need to open your eyes and watch it again. Semmy made a great run down the wing but Whaley ignored him and ran inside and gave the ball away and they hit us on the break.[/quote]

Whaley lostt he ball too cheaply.

Ots did make a great run,  but did you see where the rest of our defensive line was????  Its was 15-20 yards behind Whaley.   That meant that Ots was horrendously out of position and conceeding huge amounts of space to Reid or any other midfielder.   If whaley is that central and deep, the defence have to defend and not pretend to be right wingers.   Its the midfields role to either make the option wide or cover the gap Ots leaves.   And that was my point - Ots leaves too many gaps and gets no cover from his midfield.  Hence the goal was a team effort - from us shooting ourselves in the foot for failing to defend  

[Daniel Taylor 0]

I think this was hopefully Doherty''s last chance and he blew it in my mind. Whilst Spillane showed his naivete and Askou makes errors too, I''d still rather have them that Doherty who terrifies me. Also, Otsemobor was actually quite good last night apart from going absent for their second goal and giving Reid all the time for a world class finish.