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Pete Raven

Rebate: One in three waive the right to claim cash

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[quote user="LQ"]Yeah - sorry - I forgot.

My opinion is ''self-righteous'', anyone elses is ''opinion''.

Have it your way.


[/quote]

Your opinion is not "self righteous" but your manner is.

The campaign waged by a few, lead by yourself, against the democratic rights of both the NCISA vote and the individual season ticket holders has got what it deserved.

It is very unfortunate that the player budget gets targeted BUT what has been left for the supporters to protest with.

It also proves that the vote taken at St. Andrews Hall was far more in line with the general feeling than you or the club liked to admit.

The next action, without doubt, will be the redundancies at the club, the blame again put on the fans, as all available money MUST now be found for Gunn.

And you have the nerve to say that what was attempted was not gross blackmail in all it''s nastiness.

I respectfully suggest LQ that you head back to your paymasters and  for once, tell them the truth, rather than your miss guided interpretation of it.

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I would be sickened of Foulger does not give his chosen man, Gunn, the full million he clearly was prepared to donate now the rebate date nonsense passed.

 

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[quote user="LQ"][quote user="JuanVelasco"]

[quote user="LQ"]Juan/Ryan, I know exactly what the player budget includes. That''s why I used the phrase.


[/quote]

So why do you believe that it will be less than £4m?

[/quote]

Here''s what I wrote back in May when I asked what people thought our player budget was:

"Last accounts showed £6.7million on player wages plus just over £2 million on transfer fees/costs. In addition to this the first team management and coaching costs were £1.2 million but I ignored them as they, and other staff wages, don''t come out of the player budget. It does include player wages/transfer fees/agents costs.

The last available accounts also showed an overall loss for the Club of £2.7 million.

The £6 million loss I predicted initially is based on League payment losses of around £2 million, season ticket, casual ticket and matchday spend losses of around £2.5 million (based on the NCISA straw poll of 75% of ST holders taking their rebate) and around £1.5 million in losses relating to sponsorship and advertising.

All other things being equal we''d be looking at a loss of £8.7 million for the year if the player budget remained at £8.5 million - which obviously it can''t. A player budget of £4 million (stated by TangibleFixedAssets and CityAngel initially on other threads I believe) gives us an operating loss of £4.2 million."


Based on that we have a budget of almost exactly zero plus the £700k from today.

You do the math!


[/quote]

£1.5m losses on advertising? Thats very inaccurate, we dont even get that per year from Aviva.  In light of less than 75% of ST holders taking their rebate, how does this reduce the losses from matchday revenue?

We do not know how many people gave their rebate to the trust. Any money given to the trust will also be invested into the club in the form of shares purchased, how many people bought shares themselves or will spend it in the club shop? 

The last available accounts are ancient and include wages for players including Darren Huckerby. We will be able to sign 5 players on Huckerbys wages alone.

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Lisa, how dare you condem and blame people who chose to claim their rebate. If you pal purple is to be believed then the vast majority of them are destitute and cant do without the money!!!!!!!!!!! Do you get dizzy when you look down on the rest of us?

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doesnt budget for any player sales and reduction in wages.  With the loan players gone the wage bill must have been reduced enormously.  Gunn was clearly a very cheap appointment. Assume that Clingan will be sold aswell.  I will be disgusted if the board dont give the club the money to mount a realistic challenge on automatic promotion. 

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[quote user="Keith Roads"]Could Archant investigate how many fans did not receive a rebate form from the club. I know three people who never got sent a form, no big deal if you live near the ground, big pain in the rear otherwise.  I sure the club may have missed people out by ''mistake''/  Questioning the honest of the club, whatever next!![/quote]

It is hardly the conspiracy of the century - if people didn''t get their forms they were surely more than capable of contacting the club in some way. 

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On the point about non playing staff cuts a few posts up

I truely beoved the non playing staff overhead was way too high and trimming here was essential anyway.  I do not feel the club will link it to playing budget, it is unfortunate folsk will lose their jobs but in all honesty they should have been aggressively trimmed 2 season ago

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[quote user="Soldier on"]

Sends a good message to Delia & Co though LQ

And more importantly why should fans pay the same price for an inferior product.  Letting the club keep the rebate wouldnt mean we were watching championship style football.

A comment from NCISA reaffirming the anti board stance (with the exception of new CE) wouldnt go amiss now

[/quote]

A good idea but don''t worry about dragging the new CE into the argument...........he''s not a Board member.

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If NCFC had not been so mismanaged over the last 3/4 years we would not have found ourselves in League One and therefore we would all be looking forward to another season in the Championship and we would not have been subjected to this awful, awful rebate issue. Handled so badly by all at NCFC.

The board bought this on themselves by buring their heads in the sand. 

For people to start blaming the fans for this mess is nothing short of shocking.

How many other League One (Championship and even some Premeirship) Clubs have 18000+ season ticket holders? 

Burnley have 7500 and look at them.

You need to wake up, the blame lays firmly at Delia''s door.

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[quote user="The Butler"]

[quote user="LQ"]Yeah - sorry - I forgot.

My opinion is ''self-righteous'', anyone elses is ''opinion''.

Have it your way.


[/quote]

Your opinion is not "self righteous" but your manner is.

The campaign waged by a few, lead by yourself, against the democratic rights of both the NCISA vote and the individual season ticket holders has got what it deserved.

It is very unfortunate that the player budget gets targeted BUT what has been left for the supporters to protest with.

It also proves that the vote taken at St. Andrews Hall was far more in line with the general feeling than you or the club liked to admit.

The next action, without doubt, will be the redundancies at the club, the blame again put on the fans, as all available money MUST now be found for Gunn.

And you have the nerve to say that what was attempted was not gross blackmail in all it''s nastiness.

I respectfully suggest LQ that you head back to your paymasters and  for once, tell them the truth, rather than your miss guided interpretation of it.

[/quote]

Well said Butler.

This feeble attempt by LQ to make people feel guilty in accepting the rebate cuts no ice with me. The whole '' if you love NCFC you won''t claim your rebate '' bribery campaign has proved to be a damp squib. Good. Perhaps if our Club wasn''t run by such a bunch of incompetents then many more of us would have been willing to let them keep our cash.

Like many on here I don''t really need my rebate but I''m b*ggered if I''m letting them have it

 

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[quote user="Beauseant"]

[quote user="LQ"]I did try to argue the point about expectations regarding the player budget for this season but I was constantly TOLD by a few on here that it was around the £4million mark.

Quite how they got to that figure when I''d already done the sums is beyond me.

Still, I feel for those who had to claim because of the financial situation and to the rest who didn''t have to but chose to - I expect you''ll really enjoy your cheap football next year. Hope that £1.2million the player budget has missed out on doesn''t scupper our chances too much eh?

(I would put a sarcastic smilie in here but I''m not in the mood!)


[/quote]

 

Not surprisingly you''re a little miffed to find that despite your efforts people are actually exercising their right to both think for themselves, and to make a tangible protest at the mismanagement they have had to witness over the last few seasons both on and off the pitch. However, your attempts to try to make supporters,and particularly the season ticket holders, the scapegoats are rather distasteful. Why not give the patronising comments a rest for once?

 

[/quote]

Hallelujaaaaaaaaaaaa brother, very well said [:)]

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[quote user="Simples"]

Can I ask wht Archant would not find out exactly whether the money had or haad not been budgeted for. I want to work for them. Sit on your backside for a few days, extract a few rumours off the forums, few more days off, do half an interview.

Cushty

[/quote]

Absolutely. Once again their reporting leaves a lot to be desired as their cosy little love-in with the club continues. Oh for some precise, probing and accurate journalism!

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[quote user="LQ"]I did try to argue the point about expectations regarding the player budget for this season but I was constantly TOLD by a few on here that it was around the £4million mark.Quite how they got to that figure when I''d already done the sums is beyond me.Still, I feel for those who had to claim because of the financial situation and to the rest who didn''t have to but chose to - I expect you''ll really enjoy your cheap football next year. Hope that £1.2million the player budget has missed out on doesn''t scupper our chances too much eh?(I would put a sarcastic smilie in here but I''m not in the mood!)

[/quote]In just two years the club pi$$ed away an amount in Prem parachute payments alone equivalent to TWENTY times the amount claimed in the form of the rebate. Still people try to put the clubs failure at the feet of the fans.

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[quote user="Mister Chops"][quote user="LQ"]to the rest who didn''t have to but chose to - I expect you''ll really enjoy your cheap football next year. Hope that £1.2million the player budget has missed out on doesn''t scupper our chances too much eh?

(I would put a sarcastic smilie in here but I''m not in the mood!)

[/quote]

I am paying quite enough to see League One football next season and see no reason to give the current incompetent bunch of boardroom and managerial incumbents another £80 of my money to squander.

Did I mention that your self-righteousness makes me want to vomit?

[/quote]Could afford to give back rebate but like yourself would not do so. Consider price of ST is enough for Div 1 football and considering there are 18,000 of us that should be enough to finance a club in Div 1 without asking for ST holders to give the club extra money.

As for the self-righteousness, it does make you sick.

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[quote user="mtv"]Lisa, how dare you condem and blame people who chose to claim their rebate. If you pal purple is to be believed then the vast majority of them are destitute and cant do without the money!!!!!!!!!!! Do you get dizzy when you look down on the rest of us?[/quote]

And how dare those who took their rebare criticise those who didn''t or tell Foulger to put his money in.

We all made choices and have responsibility for that decision.  It is gross hypocrisy for those who took the rebate to call on Foulger to put his money in and both sides are patronising in condemning the other''s choice.

What happens next will be the result of all the factors that put the Club in this place and no one has a monopoly of wisdom or sanctity

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[quote user="The Butler"]

[quote user="LQ"]Yeah - sorry - I forgot.

My opinion is ''self-righteous'', anyone elses is ''opinion''.

Have it your way.


[/quote]

Your opinion is not "self righteous" but your manner is.

The campaign waged by a few, lead by yourself, against the democratic rights of both the NCISA vote and the individual season ticket holders has got what it deserved.

It is very unfortunate that the player budget gets targeted BUT what has been left for the supporters to protest with.

It also proves that the vote taken at St. Andrews Hall was far more in line with the general feeling than you or the club liked to admit.

The next action, without doubt, will be the redundancies at the club, the blame again put on the fans, as all available money MUST now be found for Gunn.

And you have the nerve to say that what was attempted was not gross blackmail in all it''s nastiness.

I respectfully suggest LQ that you head back to your paymasters and  for once, tell them the truth, rather than your miss guided interpretation of it.

[/quote]

Good evening Butler,can i just add to the point you made about the St Andrews Hall vote?

Certain people ridiculed that fact that "only 500" out of 18,000 season ticket holders who attended the meeting could not be taken as a measure of the overall feeling towards the club.We estimated that 75% of those 500 at the meeting indicated they would claim the rebate.We now know that 66.6%  of the 18,000 in fact did claim.Not too far off the mark in my eyes so it looks as though those attending were representative of the fans at large.

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[quote user="LQ"]Juan/Ryan, I know exactly what the player budget includes. That''s why I used the phrase.


[/quote]

You know everything.....

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[quote user="Mello Yello"]

[quote user="LQ"]Juan/Ryan, I know exactly what the player budget includes. That''s why I used the phrase.


[/quote]

You know everything.....

[/quote]

Mello you should know by now that in some eyes we are not worthy.No pun intended by the way.

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[quote user="TIL 1010"][quote user="The Butler"]

[quote user="LQ"]Yeah - sorry - I forgot.

My opinion is ''self-righteous'', anyone elses is ''opinion''.

Have it your way.


[/quote]

Your opinion is not "self righteous" but your manner is.

The campaign waged by a few, lead by yourself, against the democratic rights of both the NCISA vote and the individual season ticket holders has got what it deserved.

It is very unfortunate that the player budget gets targeted BUT what has been left for the supporters to protest with.

It also proves that the vote taken at St. Andrews Hall was far more in line with the general feeling than you or the club liked to admit.

The next action, without doubt, will be the redundancies at the club, the blame again put on the fans, as all available money MUST now be found for Gunn.

And you have the nerve to say that what was attempted was not gross blackmail in all it''s nastiness.

I respectfully suggest LQ that you head back to your paymasters and  for once, tell them the truth, rather than your miss guided interpretation of it.

[/quote]

Good evening Butler,can i just add to the point you made about the St Andrews Hall vote?

Certain people ridiculed that fact that "only 500" out of 18,000 season ticket holders who attended the meeting could not be taken as a measure of the overall feeling towards the club.We estimated that 75% of those 500 at the meeting indicated they would claim the rebate.We now know that 66.6%  of the 18,000 in fact did claim.Not too far off the mark in my eyes so it looks as though those attending were representative of the fans at large.

[/quote]

You won.......... You won......... You won..........

Now claim your prize.......................... No change in the boardroom and a smaller first team budget.........

 

 

 

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[quote user="TIL 1010"][quote user="The Butler"]

[quote user="LQ"]Yeah - sorry - I forgot.My opinion is ''self-righteous'', anyone elses is ''opinion''.Have it your way.

[/quote]

Your opinion is not "self righteous" but your manner is.

The campaign waged by a few, lead by yourself, against the democratic rights of both the NCISA vote and the individual season ticket holders has got what it deserved.

It is very unfortunate that the player budget gets targeted BUT what has been left for the supporters to protest with.

It also proves that the vote taken at St. Andrews Hall was far more in line with the general feeling than you or the club liked to admit.

The next action, without doubt, will be the redundancies at the club, the blame again put on the fans, as all available money MUST now be found for Gunn.

And you have the nerve to say that what was attempted was not gross blackmail in all it''s nastiness.

I respectfully suggest LQ that you head back to your paymasters and  for once, tell them the truth, rather than your miss guided interpretation of it.

[/quote]

Good evening Butler,can i just add to the point you made about the St Andrews Hall vote?

Certain people ridiculed that fact that "only 500" out of 18,000 season ticket holders who attended the meeting could not be taken as a measure of the overall feeling towards the club.We estimated that 75% of those 500 at the meeting indicated they would claim the rebate.We now know that 66.6%  of the 18,000 in fact did claim.Not too far off the mark in my eyes so it looks as though those attending were representative of the fans at large.

[/quote]A few things...First off, Butler - if they we''re my paymasters surely they''d be paying me? Last time I checked it was the other way round. Sorry. And as for the ''campaign lead by yourself'', I certainly wasn''t the only one with the view I took on here and I definitely didn''t lead a campaign. I put the other side of the story. I apologise if you find that unpalatable. I call it balance and debate.Next up, John - actually it was 63.3% of ST holders who claimed. That''s 12% less than your St Andrews straw poll suggested. 12% would be considered a pretty big swing if this were an election especially as the ''campaign'' Butler referred to didn''t have the monopoly of being called on by the local press for statements every three minutes. So what you could (more accurately) say is that instead of three quarters of the ST holders claiming it was less than two thirds. Doesn''t sound so good though, does it?Just shows you can do anything with numbers and it depends on who''s reading as to how it''s read (a bit like my posts it seems...)The only important number as far as I''m concerned is that our player budget is now £1.3million less than it could have been.I find that really sad because all I want is to get out of this stupid league asap - and money talks in this game.

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[quote user="Loan City Fc "]Yes but look on the bright side , with the type of players Gunn is signing we can get 2 new teams with £700,000 . [/quote]That was actually funny![:D]

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[quote user="LQ"][quote user="TIL 1010"][quote user="The Butler"]

[quote user="LQ"]Yeah - sorry - I forgot.

My opinion is ''self-righteous'', anyone elses is ''opinion''.

Have it your way.


[/quote]

Your opinion is not "self righteous" but your manner is.

The campaign waged by a few, lead by yourself, against the democratic rights of both the NCISA vote and the individual season ticket holders has got what it deserved.

It is very unfortunate that the player budget gets targeted BUT what has been left for the supporters to protest with.

It also proves that the vote taken at St. Andrews Hall was far more in line with the general feeling than you or the club liked to admit.

The next action, without doubt, will be the redundancies at the club, the blame again put on the fans, as all available money MUST now be found for Gunn.

And you have the nerve to say that what was attempted was not gross blackmail in all it''s nastiness.

I respectfully suggest LQ that you head back to your paymasters and  for once, tell them the truth, rather than your miss guided interpretation of it.

[/quote]

Good evening Butler,can i just add to the point you made about the St Andrews Hall vote?

Certain people ridiculed that fact that "only 500" out of 18,000 season ticket holders who attended the meeting could not be taken as a measure of the overall feeling towards the club.We estimated that 75% of those 500 at the meeting indicated they would claim the rebate.We now know that 66.6%  of the 18,000 in fact did claim.Not too far off the mark in my eyes so it looks as though those attending were representative of the fans at large.

[/quote]

A few things...

First off, Butler - if they we''re my paymasters surely they''d be paying me? Last time I checked it was the other way round. Sorry. And as for the ''campaign lead by yourself'', I certainly wasn''t the only one with the view I took on here and I definitely didn''t lead a campaign. I put the other side of the story. I apologise if you find that unpalatable. I call it balance and debate.

Next up, John - actually it was 63.3% of ST holders who claimed. That''s 12% less than your St Andrews straw poll suggested. 12% would be considered a pretty big swing if this were an election especially as the ''campaign'' Butler referred to didn''t have the monopoly of being called on by the local press for statements every three minutes. So what you could (more accurately) say is that instead of three quarters of the ST holders claiming it was less than two thirds. Doesn''t sound so good though, does it?

Just shows you can do anything with numbers and it depends on who''s reading as to how it''s read (a bit like my posts it seems...)

The only important number as far as I''m concerned is that our player budget is now £1.3million less than it could have been.

I find that really sad because all I want is to get out of this stupid league asap - and money talks in this game.


[/quote]

First off LQ you ridiculed both the meeting and the vote as "non representative" and that the season ticket holders would reject the rebate offered.

The vote taken was far more representative than you or the club imagined possible with 500 in attendence and 18000+eligable to recalim. The "error" is not great therefore. Any government losing a vote 2 thirds to 1 third is on a very slippery slope.

Your campaign of beefing the guilt of supporters who had shown their loyalty to the club, along with the clubs stance was unacceptable and received the treatment it deserved.

I  do not look on this as any type of victory, more of a sad consequence to years of missmanagement, you of all people with your business interests should at least acknowledge that fact.

The nett result is however that the club, in many eyes, lose again. Money that when added to the millions wasted by this board has resulted in our present highly unacceptable position.

This whole stupid charade of accusation and counter accusation now needs to cease and a way of bringing all interested parties together found.

If that can only be achieved by the present majority shareholders moving sideways then that is what MUST happen for the sake of our club and it''s future.

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I couldn''t agree more!Bring on someone with some nous about the business and some dosh to follow it up and I''ll be happy as Larry!(and p.s. I always thought it would be about 50/50 so I was 13% off and so was the St Andrews do [;)] )

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[quote user="LQ"][quote user="TIL 1010"][quote user="The Butler"]

[quote user="LQ"]Yeah - sorry - I forgot.

My opinion is ''self-righteous'', anyone elses is ''opinion''.

Have it your way.


[/quote]

Your opinion is not "self righteous" but your manner is.

The campaign waged by a few, lead by yourself, against the democratic rights of both the NCISA vote and the individual season ticket holders has got what it deserved.

It is very unfortunate that the player budget gets targeted BUT what has been left for the supporters to protest with.

It also proves that the vote taken at St. Andrews Hall was far more in line with the general feeling than you or the club liked to admit.

The next action, without doubt, will be the redundancies at the club, the blame again put on the fans, as all available money MUST now be found for Gunn.

And you have the nerve to say that what was attempted was not gross blackmail in all it''s nastiness.

I respectfully suggest LQ that you head back to your paymasters and  for once, tell them the truth, rather than your miss guided interpretation of it.

[/quote]

Good evening Butler,can i just add to the point you made about the St Andrews Hall vote?

Certain people ridiculed that fact that "only 500" out of 18,000 season ticket holders who attended the meeting could not be taken as a measure of the overall feeling towards the club.We estimated that 75% of those 500 at the meeting indicated they would claim the rebate.We now know that 66.6%  of the 18,000 in fact did claim.Not too far off the mark in my eyes so it looks as though those attending were representative of the fans at large.

[/quote]

A few things...

First off, Butler - if they we''re my paymasters surely they''d be paying me? Last time I checked it was the other way round. Sorry. And as for the ''campaign lead by yourself'', I certainly wasn''t the only one with the view I took on here and I definitely didn''t lead a campaign. I put the other side of the story. I apologise if you find that unpalatable. I call it balance and debate.

Next up, John - actually it was 63.3% of ST holders who claimed. That''s 12% less than your St Andrews straw poll suggested. 12% would be considered a pretty big swing if this were an election especially as the ''campaign'' Butler referred to didn''t have the monopoly of being called on by the local press for statements every three minutes. So what you could (more accurately) say is that instead of three quarters of the ST holders claiming it was less than two thirds. Doesn''t sound so good though, does it?

Just shows you can do anything with numbers and it depends on who''s reading as to how it''s read (a bit like my posts it seems...)

The only important number as far as I''m concerned is that our player budget is now £1.3million less than it could have been.

I find that really sad because all I want is to get out of this stupid league asap - and money talks in this game.


[/quote]

My mistake Lisa,66.6% was the amount claimed and it was 63.3% who claimed.

Is there really any need for the sarcasm with regard to press statements every 3 minutes? NCISA has issued two so far this year and you wonder why there was a thread the other week "why do people dislike LQ?"

You are critical of me and my approach and attitude over certain issues and with some individuals.Just one word Lisa..........Mirror!

 

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[quote user="LQ"]I couldn''t agree more!

Bring on someone with some nous about the business and some dosh to follow it up and I''ll be happy as Larry!

(and p.s. I always thought it would be about 50/50 so I was 13% off and so was the St Andrews do [;)] )


[/quote]

As you did not bother to attend the meeting LQ you obviously are unaware that it was a "hands up" ballot and people trying to take a head count.

So 70-80% give or take became 75% (in my view). Even your 50/50 would have been a sad reflection on how fans realy feel.

The plot has been badly lost by the majority shareholders. sacrificial lambs and enticement has not worked.

Orchestrated campaigns have not worked. Now can we get everyone to move on, that includes this out of touch board, before they do even more damage and cause even greater splits within the fan base.

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