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Evil Monkey

Axe to Fall

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|BA,

Sorry I missed the last part of your post.

The reason for dressing up the catering division''s performance (which includes the highly lucrative matchday operation) would simply be vanity of the majority shareholders. This is particulary given the mess we are now in. Do you think it would sit well with increasingly nagry fans if they found out that the team was being drained off funds to support non-essential side projects - dont even get me started on the land disaster which makes the cost of the catering operation look like petty cash.

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So |BA.Do you think the Canary Store in the Mall is a worthwhile venture? Merchandise sales show an overall profit but would that profit be substantially greater if the Mall shop were closed and sales were made from the stadium and the website? One market two outlets, I suspect there''s a six figure pa saving to be made what with the rates, the rents, the utilities and the extra wages. Six figures in this division can buy you a decent player or pay his wages.The office space re-development, lucrative or more of a white elephant?The only real profit we''ve made on property development in twelve years was down to Chases investment and loan negotiations. How much per year is the latest land debacle costing the team? One player per season in wages alone just in interest repayments, was last years interest repayment David Bell?Are we really better off running the catering ventures ourselves or could we make a larger profit charging a fair market rental to independent businesses?Do matchday catering and bar sales prop up monday, tuesday,wednesday, thursday and friday sales in the accounts?We don''t know but I have faith in David McNally already and he does know.

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|BA, if the match day catering operation was making a £1m profit, but the "other stuff" a £250k loss then the accounts would state a £750k profit.  I think it`s the "other stuff" which is being questioned.

For what it`s worth i think that the catering side as a whole looks just about justified at the moment but when you start to think about sunk costs, the time and energy spent on it which could be focussed on more important things, and the apparant aggravation with the Turners who allegedly wanted to slash catering costs, you have to wonder whether we shouldn`t have just leased it out like most other clubs do.

In 2002 the club had non player wage costs of £9m.  They rose to £17m in the Prem and have stayed roughly the same ever since.  In 2002 we had an "affordable" playing budget of £5.7m, last year it was £1.9m.  Do you not think we should be concerned that Prem-sized non player costs appear to be leaving the club barely able to afford a professional football team?

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[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

 

|BA, if the match day catering operation was making a £1m profit, but the "other stuff" a £250k loss then the accounts would state a £750k profit.  I think it`s the "other stuff" which is being questioned.

[/quote]In a nutshell Mr. Carrow.

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[quote user="Buckethead"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

 

|BA, if the match day catering operation was making a £1m profit, but the "other stuff" a £250k loss then the accounts would state a £750k profit.  I think it`s the "other stuff" which is being questioned.

[/quote]In a nutshell Mr. Carrow.[/quote]My guess (and its only my guess) is that any activity still going by christmas is either making a profit or neccesary for running the club.

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Mr C,

I am not sure whether you figures are just examples, but there is no way on earth that the club is making £1M profit from match day catering. Equally, I suspect that the true cost (including overheads, depreciation, finnancing costs) of the non-matchday catering is likely to be very considerable and I suspect will never pay its way -but this would too embarassing for Delia. I also suspect that Doomy''s catering rpofit was based upon management accounts rather than a full trading account. By this I mean that it would include all of the catering income matched just against the direct costs (e.g. staff and materials) which reflects the budget managed by the catering manager. It is typical in management acconuts for items such as overheads, depreciation and financing charges to be excluded as these are likley to be managed at a corporate level. Thus, one man''s profit can be anothers loss depending upon whether it is based upon management accounts or a trading account format (i.e quasi P&L).

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7rew,

.... or is related to the vanity of the majority shareholders. There is no smoke without fire regarding the reasons for the Turner''s departure.

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DF, sorry i should have clarified that the £1m was just a hypothetical figure.  Yes i absolutely agree that the figures can be (and have been...) spun to show pretty much anything therefore it is difficult to get an accurate take on things.

Which is why i keep trying to focus on the bigger picture- we have 134 non-football staff, Preston have 20.  They can afford a player budget of £5m out of £8.5m income, we can only afford £1.9m out of £19m income.  Non-player wage costs were £9m in `02 now they`re £17m- virtually the same as when we were in the Prem.

Given the above (and plenty of other evidence) anyone who says that the boards policy of investing off the pitch is increasing the amount available to be spent on the team either need their heads testing or have vested interests IMO.

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Maybe the axe will fall on us Golden Goal sellers? I haven''t had my letter yet telling me I need to turn up for the first game of the season. Who knows ? Maybe if more of you bought Golden Goal tickets we would have more money to buy players? or maybe the chairman should put a quid into the coffers for every Golden Goal ticket we sell?

Shaun.

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[quote user="Desert Fox"]

7rew,

.... or is related to the vanity of the majority shareholders. There is no smoke without fire regarding the reasons for the Turner''s departure.

[/quote]What you mean where there sub prime lending business was badly affected by the credit crunch and they couldn''t afford the ongoing investment.There was no smoke about the Turners departure - not until people decide they wanted there to be.

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[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

DF, sorry i should have clarified that the £1m was just a hypothetical figure.  Yes i absolutely agree that the figures can be (and have been...) spun to show pretty much anything therefore it is difficult to get an accurate take on things.

Which is why i keep trying to focus on the bigger picture- we have 134 non-football staff, Preston have 20.  They can afford a player budget of £5m out of £8.5m income, we can only afford £1.9m out of £19m income.  Non-player wage costs were £9m in `02 now they`re £17m- virtually the same as when we were in the Prem.

Given the above (and plenty of other evidence) anyone who says that the boards policy of investing off the pitch is increasing the amount available to be spent on the team either need their heads testing or have vested interests IMO.

[/quote]Look, this took 20 pages last time, but you were/are not comparing like with like on staffing and turnover due to a greater degree of subcontracting at PNE.But if you want to continue with misleading headline figures thats OK.  Just don''t complain about spin in the same post!

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[quote user="Desert Fox"]

7rew,

No - I am talking about the open remit to cut costs and the immovable object that was Delias catering empire.

[/quote]Any kind of quote on this - I can''t remember the reasons being given other than needing to concentrate on their own buisness.

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[quote user="7rew"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

DF, sorry i should have clarified that the £1m was just a hypothetical figure.  Yes i absolutely agree that the figures can be (and have been...) spun to show pretty much anything therefore it is difficult to get an accurate take on things.

Which is why i keep trying to focus on the bigger picture- we have 134 non-football staff, Preston have 20.  They can afford a player budget of £5m out of £8.5m income, we can only afford £1.9m out of £19m income.  Non-player wage costs were £9m in `02 now they`re £17m- virtually the same as when we were in the Prem.

Given the above (and plenty of other evidence) anyone who says that the boards policy of investing off the pitch is increasing the amount available to be spent on the team either need their heads testing or have vested interests IMO.

[/quote]

Look, this took 20 pages last time, but you were/are not comparing like with like on staffing and turnover due to a greater degree of subcontracting at PNE.

But if you want to continue with misleading headline figures thats OK.  Just don''t complain about spin in the same post![/quote]

I know that 7rew, and accepted it on the last thread.  But given that Preston can spend far more of their £8.5m income on their team than we can out of £19m, it seems that their approach is more successful does it not?

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[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

I know that 7rew, and accepted it on the last thread.  But given that Preston can spend far more of their £8.5m income on their team than we can out of £19m, it seems that their approach is more successful does it not?

[/quote]Preston had a player budget of 5m - we "can afford" a player budget of 1.9m, but what did we actually spend on players?  Like with like comparisons are whats needed after all.If you are on about percentages however, then I can''t be bothered to go any further.

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7rew, looking at the two sets of accounts it seems that the two clubs had very similar player budgets (about £8m), but that Preston needed less in the way of player sales and director loans to pay the extra on top of what was affordable out of normal income. 

To be honest i`m not really to interested in what other clubs budgets are in this context.  It is a widely believed truism that City are a "well run club", i believe we are not and the fact that Preston have a far bigger affordable budget out of much lower normal income is absolute proof of that.

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On Buckethead''s suggestion that the Castle Mall shop be closed I''d assume that it is a profitable venture (and a good idea) - on non-matchdays and at Xmas time, how many shoppers are going to head down the ground to buy merchandise?

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[quote user="Metatron"]On Buckethead''s suggestion that the Castle Mall shop be closed I''d assume that it is a profitable venture (and a good idea) - on non-matchdays and at Xmas time, how many shoppers are going to head down the ground to buy merchandise?[/quote]

All those prepared to go to Riverside for Morrisons, Next, Books, Mama + Papa''s, Argos, Going Places and JJB at a guess

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[quote user="Metatron"]On Buckethead''s suggestion that the Castle Mall shop be closed I''d assume that it is a profitable venture (and a good idea) - on non-matchdays and at Xmas time, how many shoppers are going to head down the ground to buy merchandise?[/quote]Anyone who wants NCFC merchandise I guess. If little Jimmy wants the new away shirt for his birthday then mum and dad will either pop to the shop or order it online, he wont not get it because the shop is 10 minutes down the road. If I want a pint of beer I dont go to the hairdressers because it''s closer I go to the pub because it''s a specialist outfit when it comes to selling beer.It''s common business practice to close down branches in areas where multiple branches exist in order to cut costs. It''s not like we''re talking Greggs where you might drop in and buy a couple of doughnuts on impulse. The whole psychology of out of town retail parks was based on the assumption that people will travel to specialist retailers. You want a PC a laptop or a new tv or stereo do you head into town or out of town and round the ring road?Closing the canary store is a gamble not every sale lost if they closed it would be picked up by the stadium shop of course but it''s all in those numbers which we don''t have access too. I suspect that such a large chunk of any gross trading profit at the Mall is eaten up by rent, rates, staffing costs, utilities etc. that the net profit could be generated by the staff at the stadium outlet IF they had exclusivity to the product.

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As far as i am aware when i joined the catering side of this football club, they stated 1.3million profit from the business since opening up once the kitchens in the jarrold stand were built. I recall that to be about 10-years ago?? This info was when i joined 2-years ago.. So from this i would conclude they make an average of around 130k a year from the catering business Delia has set up.

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[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

7rew, looking at the two sets of accounts it seems that the two clubs had very similar player budgets (about £8m), but that Preston needed less in the way of player sales and director loans to pay the extra on top of what was affordable out of normal income. 

To be honest i`m not really to interested in what other clubs budgets are in this context.  It is a widely believed truism that City are a "well run club", i believe we are not and the fact that Preston have a far bigger affordable budget out of much lower normal income is absolute proof of that.

[/quote]I maintain that it is proof of absolutely nothing.  Its a basic principle of logic,  FALSE implies ANYTHING.   Since these figures aren''t compatable (they are rather like comparing Japan to Coca-Cola ltd) then they are effectively false.  (like claiming a club with a stadium of 32 denumerated sections has only 20 non-football staff.)

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[quote user="7rew"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

7rew, looking at the two sets of accounts it seems that the two clubs had very similar player budgets (about £8m), but that Preston needed less in the way of player sales and director loans to pay the extra on top of what was affordable out of normal income. 

To be honest i`m not really to interested in what other clubs budgets are in this context.  It is a widely believed truism that City are a "well run club", i believe we are not and the fact that Preston have a far bigger affordable budget out of much lower normal income is absolute proof of that.

[/quote]I maintain that it is proof of absolutely nothing.  Its a basic principle of logic,  FALSE implies ANYTHING.   Since these figures aren''t compatable (they are rather like comparing Japan to Coca-Cola ltd) then they are effectively false.  (like claiming a club with a stadium of 32 denumerated sections has only 20 non-football staff.)[/quote]And BTW:  Division 3 => must do better everywhere.  Not sure much else is needed!

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Michael Bates,

This is interesting. Assuming what you have been told is correct, it conflicts directly with Doomy''s view of the world. A £1.3M return over 10 years is not great considering teh cost of capital and opportunity cost. Furthermore, I would estimate that matchday catering is likley to yield a net profit of circa £0.3M per year largely on the back of the bars. So, this would imply that the non-matchday operation is loss making, again assuming that your information is correct.

If you do work in the catering operation, have you got any idea how many staff are tied up in the non-matchday operation and how well this is doing. If they have made two managers  redundant, I am assuming that it was not doing that well.

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Err...The Jarrold hasn''t been open for 10 years?[8-)]

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[quote user="LQ"]Err...

The Jarrold hasn''t been open for 10 years?

[8-)]


[/quote]

No, but the Bellamy err, Barclay Kitchens have.....I think the poster may have got the stands mixed up...

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[quote user="Snakepit boys"]I hope the well fit chicks from the Ticket Office remain, they occasionally get a spare seat in the snakepit!! [:P][;)][<:o)]
[/quote]

Dirty little sod......

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[quote user="Buckethead"][quote user="Metatron"]On Buckethead''s suggestion that the Castle Mall shop be closed I''d assume that it is a profitable venture (and a good idea) - on non-matchdays and at Xmas time, how many shoppers are going to head down the ground to buy merchandise?[/quote]

Anyone who wants NCFC merchandise I guess. If little Jimmy wants the new away shirt for his birthday then mum and dad will either pop to the shop or order it online, he wont not get it because the shop is 10 minutes down the road. If I want a pint of beer I dont go to the hairdressers because it''s closer I go to the pub because it''s a specialist outfit when it comes to selling beer.
It''s common business practice to close down branches in areas where multiple branches exist in order to cut costs. It''s not like we''re talking Greggs where you might drop in and buy a couple of doughnuts on impulse.
The whole psychology of out of town retail parks was based on the assumption that people will travel to specialist retailers. You want a PC a laptop or a new tv or stereo do you head into town or out of town and round the ring road?
Closing the canary store is a gamble not every sale lost if they closed it would be picked up by the stadium shop of course but it''s all in those numbers which we don''t have access too. I suspect that such a large chunk of any gross trading profit at the Mall is eaten up by rent, rates, staffing costs, utilities etc. that the net profit could be generated by the staff at the stadium outlet IF they had exclusivity to the product.
[/quote]

Maybe they could get a stall in the market.

Just as central.

Would be a perfect match for straightened circumstances of the Third Division.

No heating costs either.

Have to avoid one with a blue and white roof though.

OTBC

 

 

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[quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]

[quote user="Buckethead"][quote user="Metatron"]On Buckethead''s suggestion that the Castle Mall shop be closed I''d assume that it is a profitable venture (and a good idea) - on non-matchdays and at Xmas time, how many shoppers are going to head down the ground to buy merchandise?[/quote]Anyone who wants NCFC merchandise I guess. If little Jimmy wants the new away shirt for his birthday then mum and dad will either pop to the shop or order it online, he wont not get it because the shop is 10 minutes down the road. If I want a pint of beer I dont go to the hairdressers because it''s closer I go to the pub because it''s a specialist outfit when it comes to selling beer.It''s common business practice to close down branches in areas where multiple branches exist in order to cut costs. It''s not like we''re talking Greggs where you might drop in and buy a couple of doughnuts on impulse. The whole psychology of out of town retail parks was based on the assumption that people will travel to specialist retailers. You want a PC a laptop or a new tv or stereo do you head into town or out of town and round the ring road?Closing the canary store is a gamble not every sale lost if they closed it would be picked up by the stadium shop of course but it''s all in those numbers which we don''t have access too. I suspect that such a large chunk of any gross trading profit at the Mall is eaten up by rent, rates, staffing costs, utilities etc. that the net profit could be generated by the staff at the stadium outlet IF they had exclusivity to the product.[/quote]

Maybe they could get a stall in the market.

Just as central.

Would be a perfect match for straightened circumstances of the Third Division.

No heating costs either.

Have to avoid one with a blue and white roof though.

OTBC

 

 

[/quote]A concession in Debenhams would be one likely cost effective solution.

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[quote user="Buckethead"][quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]

[quote user="Buckethead"][quote user="Metatron"]On Buckethead''s suggestion that the Castle Mall shop be closed I''d assume that it is a profitable venture (and a good idea) - on non-matchdays and at Xmas time, how many shoppers are going to head down the ground to buy merchandise?[/quote]

Anyone who wants NCFC merchandise I guess. If little Jimmy wants the new away shirt for his birthday then mum and dad will either pop to the shop or order it online, he wont not get it because the shop is 10 minutes down the road. If I want a pint of beer I dont go to the hairdressers because it''s closer I go to the pub because it''s a specialist outfit when it comes to selling beer.
It''s common business practice to close down branches in areas where multiple branches exist in order to cut costs. It''s not like we''re talking Greggs where you might drop in and buy a couple of doughnuts on impulse.
The whole psychology of out of town retail parks was based on the assumption that people will travel to specialist retailers. You want a PC a laptop or a new tv or stereo do you head into town or out of town and round the ring road?
Closing the canary store is a gamble not every sale lost if they closed it would be picked up by the stadium shop of course but it''s all in those numbers which we don''t have access too. I suspect that such a large chunk of any gross trading profit at the Mall is eaten up by rent, rates, staffing costs, utilities etc. that the net profit could be generated by the staff at the stadium outlet IF they had exclusivity to the product.
[/quote]

Maybe they could get a stall in the market.

Just as central.

Would be a perfect match for straightened circumstances of the Third Division.

No heating costs either.

Have to avoid one with a blue and white roof though.

OTBC

[/quote]

A concession in Debenhams would be one likely cost effective solution.
[/quote]

Nahhhhh......!!

Wouldn''t have the right atmosphere.

Too much cotton around.

The market is the place for polyester.

OTBC

 

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