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kdncfc

We should have plenty of money.

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We have already sold Marshall and offloaded Croft and it also looks like Clingan will be on his way which will make the toal amount we of incoming transfer fees around 1.5 million, add another 500k for the rebate money and that should give us a budget of around 2 million pounds to be spent on transfer fees as the wages of new players should be more than compensated for by the loss of the high earners.

Taking all this into consideration I find it hard to believe that we don''t seem to be able to compete with clubs like Huddersfield Town for players, it again arouses suspicion that the money we do have isn''t being spent where it should be spent. We really should be throwing our weight around when it comes to signing players at this level and I find it demoralising that we don''t seem to be able to compete with such giants of the English game.

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I was genuinely about to post a thread about whether people think these transfer fees are going to go straight into our transfer kitty. I sure as hell don''t - it never has.

Would love to be proved wrong.

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[quote]We have already sold Marshall and offloaded Croft and it also looks

like Clingan will be on his way which will make the toal amount we of

incoming transfer fees around 1.5 million[/quote]We sold Marshall for what was described by both Cardiff and Norwich as a "six figure sum".  Croft terminated his contract early, so no fee there, and Clingan hasn''t gone anywhere yet.  So how do you arrive at 1.5 million ?

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[quote user="kdncfc"]

We have already sold Marshall and offloaded Croft and it also looks like Clingan will be on his way which will make the toal amount we of incoming transfer fees around 1.5 million, add another 500k for the rebate money and that should give us a budget of around 2 million pounds to be spent on transfer fees as the wages of new players should be more than compensated for by the loss of the high earners.

Taking all this into consideration I find it hard to believe that we don''t seem to be able to compete with clubs like Huddersfield Town for players, it again arouses suspicion that the money we do have isn''t being spent where it should be spent. We really should be throwing our weight around when it comes to signing players at this level and I find it demoralising that we don''t seem to be able to compete with such giants of the English game.

[/quote]and Mr F''s £500 k will make it c£2.5 M.

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i agree with what you are saying yet we still have plenty of time to bring players in .

hopefully if lessons are learned we will sign a few players that people will stand up and take note.

time can only tell i would think the selling of players has gone to the debt we owe if the truth be known .

i hope im wrong and we will make a big push to get us back to the championship .

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clingan has to worth at least 1-1.5 million surely .

i wouldnt put money on it he is here next week let alone the start of the new season he has made that quite clear .

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There is not a single penny in the budget make no mistake about it.I was told by a member of Club staff"we will be shopping at poundstretcher".Forget the rebate issue this was said before it even raised it''s head.

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[quote user="Mushroom"]I was genuinely about to post a thread about whether people think these transfer fees are going to go straight into our transfer kitty. I sure as hell don''t - it never has. Would love to be proved wrong.[/quote]

One thing that annoys me is how the club always seem to totally discount the wages that we have saved on departing players, when Clingan goes we have probably saved something like 20k a week in wages and you''d get 4 league 1 players for not much more than half that amount in wages. Surely that should mean that having made a big saving on wages every penny of any transfer fees should be spent on transfer fees but that doesn''t seem to happen. As a result every time you sell a player for a largish fee and replace them with a freebie you downgrade the quality of the playing staff and that is what got us into this position in the first place.

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[quote user="kdncfc"]

Taking all this into consideration I find it hard to believe that we don''t seem to be able to compete with clubs like Huddersfield Town for players.

[/quote]

Where is the evidence that we can''t compete with Huddersfield Town? As far as I can make out Coventry are interested in Sammy Clingan and have offered cash plus Robbie Simpson. We have told them we''re not interested and want the full amount so Simpson is off to Huddersfield. There was never any suggestion that Simpson was interesting us until the story about Coventry wanting Clingan came to light.

If anything I look upon this as a positive. Hopefully if Clingan does leave we''ll be holding out for what we think he''s worth rather than accepting the first deal that comes our way.

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You also have to accept that:

i) Fees are rarely payed all up front re. Marshall deal

ii) We hada £7m shortfall due to relegation

iii) Where have you read that we can''t compete financially with Huddersfield? The Simpson deal? He was only linked with us in a swap deal...

iv) Have you got the official numbers of those who haven''t claimed their rebate?

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[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote]We have already sold Marshall and offloaded Croft and it also looks like Clingan will be on his way which will make the toal amount we of incoming transfer fees around 1.5 million[/quote]

We sold Marshall for what was described by both Cardiff and Norwich as a "six figure sum".  Croft terminated his contract early, so no fee there, and Clingan hasn''t gone anywhere yet.  So how do you arrive at 1.5 million ?
[/quote]

Well at a guess I''d say that Marshall must have made at least 400k and there was talk of a million for Clingan plus Simpson who seems to be on his way to the mighty Huddersfield so we may now get more than a million for him.

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[quote user="The Walking Man walking to Yeovil"]

You also have to accept that:

i) Fees are rarely payed all up front re. Marshall deal

ii) We hada £7m shortfall due to relegation

iii) Where have you read that we can''t compete financially with Huddersfield? The Simpson deal? He was only linked with us in a swap deal...

iv) Have you got the official numbers of those who haven''t claimed their rebate?

[/quote]

Can we not also pay fees in instalments then or are NCFC the only club that will allow such an arrangement?

We were also interested in Peter Clarke and he chose uddersfield so we obviously lost out on that one and no I haven''t got the official figures on the rebate but I assumed half would let the club keep it which would equate to 300k and added another 300k for Foulgers contribution. Wouldn''t mind betting I''m not a million miles out with that either.

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[quote user="TIL 1010"]There is not a single penny in the budget make no mistake about it.I was told by a member of Club staff"we will be shopping at poundstretcher".Forget the rebate issue this was said before it even raised it''s head.[/quote]

We''ve just been relegated and have half a squad to replace; what exactly do people expect?

People forget that under Grant and Roeder we spent a lot of money. Grant gave ridiculous contracts to useless players. Drury and Cureton are still probably among our most expensive players as they were given contracts by Grant. Roeder spunked any remaining cash on loans, loans, loans.

I expect there to be some money available to Gunn for team building. But with the numbers we need and the expectations the club is bound to have, of course we''re going to be shopping for cheaply available players. It''s common sense.

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[quote user="TIL 1010"]There is not a single penny in the budget make no mistake about it.I was told by a member of Club staff"we will be shopping at poundstretcher".Forget the rebate issue this was said before it even raised it''s head.[/quote]

I so hope you''re wrong John but somehow I doubt it, just reinforces my feeling that while Smith and Jones remain at the club for all their good intentions we will only be going in one direction. You can''t do this football thing without money anymore whatever level you are at I''m afraid.

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An extract from a ''Delia Out'' post sums it up:

What is more than a little dumbfounding is the reference by some posters to ''the good times we have had under Smith''! Which straws are these people clutching at?!

This really is very strange. To glorify our 6th place finish & subsequent defeat at Cardiff is perhaps a little perplexing, and you then have just 1 season from the remaining 12 years which was highly successful. As for the rest - pathetic would sum it up.

Oh, and they seem to ignore the journey from an opening £6m inherited debt to now being in debt to the tune of over £20m - despite premiership & (perhaps the even more precious) post-premiership finance injections of:

1) £12.2m profit on player trading.

2) £14.2m ''parachute'' monies.

3) £1.5m Geoffrey Watling Estate Legacy (subsequent to his death in 11/04).

They forget (or ignore) that the club faced financial ruin prior to Chase becoming Chairman. Given the vast wealth of sellable player talent & land investments held at the club in 1996, there was NO financial crisis from which (according to myth) Smith saved us. There was certainly the requirement to negotiate the banking arrangements & perhaps move some of the overdraft into a loan or similar, but that is as far as it goes. The ''Butler'' can provide more information on this (due to him being privileged with more extensive knowledge of the facts).

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[quote user="kdncfc"][quote user="The Walking Man walking to Yeovil"]

You also have to accept that:

i) Fees are rarely payed all up front re. Marshall deal

ii) We hada £7m shortfall due to relegation

iii) Where have you read that we can''t compete financially with Huddersfield? The Simpson deal? He was only linked with us in a swap deal...

iv) Have you got the official numbers of those who haven''t claimed their rebate?

[/quote]

Can we not also pay fees in instalments then or are NCFC the only club that will allow such an arrangement?

We were also interested in Peter Clarke and he chose uddersfield so we obviously lost out on that one and no I haven''t got the official figures on the rebate but I assumed half would let the club keep it which would equate to 300k and added another 300k for Foulgers contribution. Wouldn''t mind betting I''m not a million miles out with that either.

[/quote]

Hmmm im not convinced we ever made an offer to Clarke, he turned dwon an offer from Charlton...

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[quote user="TheMarshmallowMonkey"]

[quote user="TIL 1010"]There is not a single penny in the budget make no mistake about it.I was told by a member of Club staff"we will be shopping at poundstretcher".Forget the rebate issue this was said before it even raised it''s head.[/quote]

We''ve just been relegated and have half a squad to replace; what exactly do people expect?

People forget that under Grant and Roeder we spent a lot of money. Grant gave ridiculous contracts to useless players. Drury and Cureton are still probably among our most expensive players as they were given contracts by Grant. Roeder spunked any remaining cash on loans, loans, loans.

I expect there to be some money available to Gunn for team building. But with the numbers we need and the expectations the club is bound to have, of course we''re going to be shopping for cheaply available players. It''s common sense.

[/quote]

This can only be down to Smiths board allowing it to happen!

The buck always stops at the top.

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[quote user="DEB (never forgotten)"][quote user="TheMarshmallowMonkey"]

[quote user="TIL 1010"]There is not a single penny in the budget make no mistake about it.I was told by a member of Club staff"we will be shopping at poundstretcher".Forget the rebate issue this was said before it even raised it''s head.[/quote]

We''ve just been relegated and have half a squad to replace; what exactly do people expect?

People forget that under Grant and Roeder we spent a lot of money. Grant gave ridiculous contracts to useless players. Drury and Cureton are still probably among our most expensive players as they were given contracts by Grant. Roeder spunked any remaining cash on loans, loans, loans.

I expect there to be some money available to Gunn for team building. But with the numbers we need and the expectations the club is bound to have, of course we''re going to be shopping for cheaply available players. It''s common sense.

[/quote]

This can only be down to Smiths board allowing it to happen!

The buck always stops at the top.

[/quote/]

Spot on.

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I thought we were running at a £2m a year loss each year in the Championship? This year it will be more than that becasue of the drop in TV money, reduced season ticket income and less away support. Thats around £4m short before we even start the season. So even if your figures are correct we still have no cash in the transfer kitty. Thats why we have no chance of holding on to Clingan and maybe others as well.

Penny dropping yet??

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[quote user="bristol_canary"]what about the turners getting their money back?
[/quote]

The Turners money hasn''t got to be paid back unless we reach the prem which isn''t likely to be anytime soon.

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The rebate money is not new money as the club already has it minus those who claim but plus whatever Foulger matches.

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I largely agree. The board must be held accountable for a string of very, very poor appointments and their actions. But that was not my point. My point was, with the situation we are in, why are people surprised that we can only afford inexpensive signings? 

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[quote user="TIL 1010"]There is not a single penny in the budget make no mistake about it.I was told by a member of Club staff"we will be shopping at poundstretcher".Forget the rebate issue this was said before it even raised it''s head.[/quote]

 

I have heard slightly different, but there you go.

So are you saying the new board members will give nothing to the club?

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We should have plenty of money because our incoming fees are higher than the outgoing ones.Lovely theory, shame it doesn''t hold up in practice:Fees are the only income gained from transfers, but are not the only expenditure involved. there are things like agent fees, signing on fees, bits of income spirited off to players for being sold without putting in a transfer request [which is why they are so rare even from want-away players] etc. that frankly even with fully disclosed fees (which we don''t have) its frankly a guessing game. If you are going to then add in players wages as yet another unknown then we are playing pin the tail on the donkey without even knowing which room the donkey is in.At the end of the transfer window I''ll have a go at showing with reasonable assumptions of fees and wages etc, two sets of figures, one that shows a profit and one that shows a loss on the player transactions carried out this summer - i''ll bet now that it won''t be hard (someone may have to remind me though!)

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Lets be clear - Doncaster did the contract offering, not the manager.[quote user="TheMarshmallowMonkey"]

[quote user="TIL 1010"]There is not a single penny in the budget make no mistake about it.I was told by a member of Club staff"we will be shopping at poundstretcher".Forget the rebate issue this was said before it even raised it''s head.[/quote]

We''ve just been relegated and have half a squad to replace; what exactly do people expect?

People forget that under Grant and Roeder we spent a lot of money. Grant gave ridiculous contracts to useless players. Drury and Cureton are still probably among our most expensive players as they were given contracts by Grant. Roeder spunked any remaining cash on loans, loans, loans.

I expect there to be some money available to Gunn for team building. But with the numbers we need and the expectations the club is bound to have, of course we''re going to be shopping for cheaply available players. It''s common sense.

[/quote]

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Perhaps, any incoming dosh will go into the pot to pay for reduction in - Property value.Television revenuePrivate SponsorshipCompanies pulling out of Corporate hospitalityBudget for likely reduction in home gates, now and in the future.Smaller revenue from away supporters, who are less than in the Championship.Less Merchandise soldPensions, insurance etc.Share priceLess of a cut from away games because the crowds are smaller.Plus, anything or anybody that is affected by the credit crunch.

 

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[quote user="kdncfc"]

[quote user="blahblahblah"][quote]We have already sold Marshall and offloaded Croft and it also looks like Clingan will be on his way which will make the toal amount we of incoming transfer fees around 1.5 million[/quote]

We sold Marshall for what was described by both Cardiff and Norwich as a "six figure sum".  Croft terminated his contract early, so no fee there, and Clingan hasn''t gone anywhere yet.  So how do you arrive at 1.5 million ?
[/quote]

Well at a guess I''d say that Marshall must have made at least 400k and there was talk of a million for Clingan plus Simpson who seems to be on his way to the mighty Huddersfield so we may now get more than a million for him.

[/quote]

Who has said that we had paid Celtic their £1m?

For all we know we could have still owed Celtic 400k in installments, in which case we would have made £0 on Marshall.  In fact we would actually have lost 600k.

Whatever way you look at it, we havent made any money on Marshall, we have in fact made a big fat loss.

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[quote user="HappyhammerAndy"]Perhaps, any incoming dosh will go into the pot to pay for reduction in -

Property value.
Television revenue
Private Sponsorship
Companies pulling out of Corporate hospitality
Budget for likely reduction in home gates, now and in the future.
Smaller revenue from away supporters, who are less than in the Championship.
Less Merchandise sold
Pensions, insurance etc.
Share price
Less of a cut from away games because the crowds are smaller.

Plus, anything or anybody that is affected by the credit crunch.
 
[/quote]

I suspect that the away gates will actually increase next year, as most of the teams havent played us for years and they see us as a big game.

Falling property value also doesnt cost us money, it just reduces the value of the business as a whole. I dont really understand how pension or insurance costs will increase, and the share price is fixed (and irrelevant with regards to working capital anyway).

Everything else is probably right though.

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[quote user="kdncfc"]

[quote user="Mushroom"]I was genuinely about to post a thread about whether people think these transfer fees are going to go straight into our transfer kitty. I sure as hell don''t - it never has. Would love to be proved wrong.[/quote]

One thing that annoys me is how the club always seem to totally discount the wages that we have saved on departing players, when Clingan goes we have probably saved something like 20k a week in wages and you''d get 4 league 1 players for not much more than half that amount in wages. Surely that should mean that having made a big saving on wages every penny of any transfer fees should be spent on transfer fees but that doesn''t seem to happen. As a result every time you sell a player for a largish fee and replace them with a freebie you downgrade the quality of the playing staff and that is what got us into this position in the first place.

[/quote]

I''m sorry but thats a funny kind of statement.

You can''t spend the 20k of wages you have saved... There is no saving... We dropped a league down with significantly reduced income and thus we are dropping wages to balance not increase the books?????

Come on lets write credible stuff.

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