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JuanVelasco

Doherty Off?

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Firstly butterworth is hardly going to sit there and say hes pleased weve signed nelson but hes not going to get in the team! Secondly the doc is one of the few players we have who has heart so why dont people get off his back. Thirdly if doc stays he will be the best defender in league 1 next season. Yes he makes the odd blunder but generally a very good defender and i get the impression also a decent bloke.

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[quote user="JuanVelasco"][quote user="JuanVelasco"][quote user="USAcanary"][quote user="jimidack"][quote user="JuanVelasco"]

[quote user="Houston Canary"]I would hate to lose D''OHerty after he anchored out defense for the last 4 or 5 years, including 2 relegations.  We can''t afford to lose such a quality talent with that  kind of impact on the team.   [/quote]

Its ok for you to say sitting behind your laptop in Houston. Doherty was playing his best football for us last season.

[/quote]

From what I can see from the original quote, he is just stating a fact. In the last 4-5 years Doc has been our first choice centre back and we have gotten worse year by year.

I do think it is merely a coincidence but it''s hard to ignore.
[/quote]

I dont think Roeder would agree with that.

He saw Doc as nothing more than a 3rd choice CB as he started the season with Dejan and Kennedy

I think losing both those players through injury led to a lot of our problems.

[/quote]

But Kennedy was only on loan until 1st January (just over 3 months) so sorry to pee on your bonfire, but that doesnt really work does it. Losing Kennedy to injury was a foregone conclusion, he was 24 and had already spent a total of over 4 years not being able to kick a ball.

[/quote]

Bearing in mind that Roeder also thought that Huckerby was not good enough for our squad, was ignorant enough to loan Jamie Cureton to Barnsley, sold Jason Shackell and replaced him with a 33 year old, and had a ration of about 1 in 3 signings being successful, I will choose to respect my own judgement over Glen Roeders, thanks.

Of course, you are more than entitled to take Roeders ideals as gospel and worship the man if you like, personally I think that makes you a little bit of a tit.

 

[/quote]

Jimidack wrote "In the last 4-5 years Doc has been our first choice centre back "

I wrote "I dont think Roeder would agree with that. He saw Doc as nothing more than a 3rd choice CB as he started the season with Dejan and Kennedy"

Where does it say that is my opinion?  I am just saying its NOT correct that he has been first choice.

 

 

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Sorry Juan Velasco, The clubs wages were not water tight last season we were paying some of the top money in the division for what?? and this is one of the main reasons we''re losing money year on year. The youth players and young members of the squad will not be the players causing this, it will be the wages of players like Doherty and Cureton. I agree we should keep our better players if possible but from what i saw last season there really isnt that much that is going to make us top 2 in league 1 and  the two players who are likely to make a big difference (Hoolahan and Clingan) both look likely to go.

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[quote user="USAcanary"][quote user="JuanVelasco"][quote user="USAcanary"][quote user="jimidack"][quote user="JuanVelasco"]

[quote user="Houston Canary"]I would hate to lose D''OHerty after he anchored out defense for the last 4 or 5 years, including 2 relegations.  We can''t afford to lose such a quality talent with that  kind of impact on the team.   [/quote]

Its ok for you to say sitting behind your laptop in Houston. Doherty was playing his best football for us last season.

[/quote]

From what I can see from the original quote, he is just stating a fact. In the last 4-5 years Doc has been our first choice centre back and we have gotten worse year by year.

I do think it is merely a coincidence but it''s hard to ignore.
[/quote]

I dont think Roeder would agree with that.

He saw Doc as nothing more than a 3rd choice CB as he started the season with Dejan and Kennedy

I think losing both those players through injury led to a lot of our problems.

[/quote]

But Kennedy was only on loan until 1st January (just over 3 months) so sorry to pee on your bonfire, but that doesnt really work does it. Losing Kennedy to injury was a foregone conclusion, he was 24 and had already spent a total of over 4 years not being able to kick a ball.

 

 

[/quote]

Why would he start Dejan and Kennedy if he rated Doc above them? 

 

[/quote]

Look I understand that Roeder rated Kennedy and Stefanovic above Doherty, and so do I if im honest. But what im trying to say, and what you are obviously finding very difficult to understand, is that Roeders opinion is completely irrelevant, as his many other decisions such as the release of Huckerby showed.

You show me where we are going to get another Kennedy and I will back your corner, but Micky Nelson is no Kennedy is he. Doherty is an International player with Premiership experience, Micky Nelson is a 29 year old who has never played above league one and who Hartlepool fans were happy to see leave.

Your example of the Kennedy Stefanovic partnership bears absolutely no relevance to our current predicament. I am talking about Stefanovic one year and one major injury on, Micky Nelson and Gary Doherty.  If I was talking about a fit Dejan Stefanovic, a fit John Kennedy, Jason Shackell and Gary Doherty then it would be another story.

 

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[quote user="Jim Smith"]Firstly butterworth is hardly going to sit there and say hes pleased weve signed nelson but hes not going to get in the team! Secondly the doc is one of the few players we have who has heart so why dont people get off his back. Thirdly if doc stays he will be the best defender in league 1 next season. Yes he makes the odd blunder but generally a very good defender and i get the impression also a decent bloke.[/quote]

I agree with everything that you said there.

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[quote user="Jim Smith"]Firstly butterworth is hardly going to sit there and say hes pleased weve signed nelson but hes not going to get in the team! Secondly the doc is one of the few players we have who has heart so why dont people get off his back. Thirdly if doc stays he will be the best defender in league 1 next season. Yes he makes the odd blunder but generally a very good defender and i get the impression also a decent bloke.[/quote]

I agree with everything that you said there.

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[quote user="Yellowbeagle"]

Sorry Juan Velasco, The clubs wages were not water tight last season we were paying some of the top money in the division for what?? and this is one of the main reasons we''re losing money year on year. The youth players and young members of the squad will not be the players causing this, it will be the wages of players like Doherty and Cureton. I agree we should keep our better players if possible but from what i saw last season there really isnt that much that is going to make us top 2 in league 1 and  the two players who are likely to make a big difference (Hoolahan and Clingan) both look likely to go.

[/quote]

No im talking about the wage structure, not the wage levels. We paid good money for sub standard players, I cannot dispute that. All I am saying is that senior players were all on similar money, there was a wage structure and more importantly a wage cap, I know all this for fact. Unfortunately most senior players did not earn there wages last year, with perhaps the exception of Doherty, Croft and Clingan. 

I was supporting my argument that Doherty is not on any more money then the other senior players that we still have at the club from last season. e.g. Russell, Lappin, Pattison, Cureton etc etc.  None of the players I have just mentioned deserved their pay cheques, and were overpaid, that cannot be disputed...... in fact many didnt deserve a penny some weeks, I am just disputing the assumption that Doherty is on better money because he initially signed in the premiership season.

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[quote user="USAcanary"][quote user="JuanVelasco"][quote user="JuanVelasco"][quote user="USAcanary"][quote user="jimidack"][quote user="JuanVelasco"]

[quote user="Houston Canary"]I would hate to lose D''OHerty after he anchored out defense for the last 4 or 5 years, including 2 relegations.  We can''t afford to lose such a quality talent with that  kind of impact on the team.   [/quote]

Its ok for you to say sitting behind your laptop in Houston. Doherty was playing his best football for us last season.

[/quote]

From what I can see from the original quote, he is just stating a fact. In the last 4-5 years Doc has been our first choice centre back and we have gotten worse year by year.

I do think it is merely a coincidence but it''s hard to ignore.
[/quote]

I dont think Roeder would agree with that.

He saw Doc as nothing more than a 3rd choice CB as he started the season with Dejan and Kennedy

I think losing both those players through injury led to a lot of our problems.

[/quote]

But Kennedy was only on loan until 1st January (just over 3 months) so sorry to pee on your bonfire, but that doesnt really work does it. Losing Kennedy to injury was a foregone conclusion, he was 24 and had already spent a total of over 4 years not being able to kick a ball.

[/quote]

Bearing in mind that Roeder also thought that Huckerby was not good enough for our squad, was ignorant enough to loan Jamie Cureton to Barnsley, sold Jason Shackell and replaced him with a 33 year old, and had a ration of about 1 in 3 signings being successful, I will choose to respect my own judgement over Glen Roeders, thanks.

Of course, you are more than entitled to take Roeders ideals as gospel and worship the man if you like, personally I think that makes you a little bit of a tit.

 

[/quote]

Jimidack wrote "In the last 4-5 years Doc has been our first choice centre back "

I wrote "I dont think Roeder would agree with that. He saw Doc as nothing more than a 3rd choice CB as he started the season with Dejan and Kennedy"

Where does it say that is my opinion?  I am just saying its NOT correct that he has been first choice.

[/quote]

I got you confused with Houston Canary and his comment.

Although, I would argue that Doherty has been our first choice, since with the exception of his 2 month long injury he was ever present for all but 2 games.

For the bulk of last season he was our only fit and permanantly contracted centre back, so if you cant be first choice then, then I dont know when you can be.

Your argument is also very flawed. Roeder saw enough in Doherty to give him a two year contract, whilst happily selling Shackell to Wolves.

I would suggest therefore that Stefanovic was a replacement for Shackell and that Kennedy was brought in to give them both competition. Before Roeder came in we had two centre backs, and when he came in we had two centre backs. It was Doherty - Shackell and then it was Doherty - Stefanovic.

Personally I think that if we are keeping Doherty and Stefanovic and signing Nelson as competition, this will be a very positive direction. Three permanent centre backs (four including Spillane) for the first time in bleedin ages. Thats a positive direction.

My original post was simply querying whether or not people thought that either Doherty or Stefanovic were leaving, which in my opinion would be a negative direction. So why cant we try and keep that on track?

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To be fair to Stef he''s 34 and coming off the back off a cruciate knee injury, the kind of injury that normally spells the end for 34 yr old footballers, so i dont expect we''ll see much of Stef next season.

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Barclayman - [quote]To be fair to Stef he''s 34 and coming off the back off a cruciate knee injury, the kind of injury that normally spells the end for 34 yr old footballers, so i dont expect we''ll see much of Stef next season.[/quote]

[url=http://www.pinkun.com/cs/forums/1726902/ShowPost.aspx]Precisely[/url]

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[quote user="Barclaymanyour Carrow Road SuperHero"]To be fair to Stef he''s 34 and coming off the back off a cruciate knee injury, the kind of injury that normally spells the end for 34 yr old footballers, so i dont expect we''ll see much of Stef next season.
[/quote]

I actually see completely see where your coming from there mate. Lets hope that Nelson is seen as a potential doherty partner then. 

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[quote user="Sideshow Tim"]Perhaps Gunn wants Doc to play as ''the big man up front'' He is prolific in front of goal!!!!!!!!!![/quote]

You stole my thunder there Tim, I was thinking the same thing. Doc''s always wanted to play up front, even when Worthy was here. So I wonder whether he''s being thought more of in a Dion role, mainly playing up front but dropping back into defence if required?

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[quote user="WestMidlandCanary"]

[quote user="Sideshow Tim"]Perhaps Gunn wants Doc to play as ''the big man up front'' He is prolific in front of goal!!!!!!!!!![/quote]

You stole my thunder there Tim, I was thinking the same thing. Doc''s always wanted to play up front, even when Worthy was here. So I wonder whether he''s being thought more of in a Dion role, mainly playing up front but dropping back into defence if required?

[/quote]

Yes, Doc will be used up-front, the value of a battering ram can not be underestimated, and there isn''t one at the club.

Also, he will not give away needless freekicks in dangerous places.

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There will be short term injuries, so we must carry at least 3 central defenders, and if there is a longer term injury, .......   We certainly do not want to dip into the loan market!From all accounts our three established CDs will all be on the slow side, and my feeling is that if Nelson can stop people without all-in wrestling then he could get the nod in front of the Doc. The latter has been a great servant, but my heart is in my mouth every time he goes near an opposing player, and he certainly has conceded quite a few free-kicks in dangerous areas.Otherwise, I suppose it will be a matter of form and who gels with whom. One thing is sure that with three CDs who are all not the quickest, we desperately need a quick LB, where a veteran, injury revaged Drury may not be quick enough.If we get enough players for each position, we could even have some rotation in busy times of the year, and why not at CD?

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[quote user="Lenny-boy"][quote user="WestMidlandCanary"]

[quote user="Sideshow Tim"]Perhaps Gunn wants Doc to play as ''the big man up front'' He is prolific in front of goal!!!!!!!!!![/quote]

You stole my thunder there Tim, I was thinking the same thing. Doc''s always wanted to play up front, even when Worthy was here. So I wonder whether he''s being thought more of in a Dion role, mainly playing up front but dropping back into defence if required?

[/quote]

Yes, Doc will be used up-front, the value of a battering ram can not be underestimated, and there isn''t one at the club.

Also, he will not give away needless freekicks in dangerous places.

[/quote]

No he will just mess up every one of our set pieces instead by jumping on the shoulders of every player in the other box.

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My dad is actually doing some building work at the Doc''s house and the Doc said he werent sure on whether he was going or not because there have been no offers for him! My dad also said that a very attractive young lady came out of the Doc''s house half naked after he went clubbing! Good old boy!

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[quote user="CanaryRyan"]My dad is actually doing some building work at the Doc''s house and the Doc said he werent sure on whether he was going or not because there have been no offers for him! My dad also said that a very attractive young lady came out of the Doc''s house half naked after he went clubbing! Good old boy![/quote]

Dude, isnt he married with a kid?  if so...... that really wasnt a clever thing to write.

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[quote user="JuanVelasco"]

[quote user="CanaryRyan"]My dad is actually doing some building work at the Doc''s house and the Doc said he werent sure on whether he was going or not because there have been no offers for him! My dad also said that a very attractive young lady came out of the Doc''s house half naked after he went clubbing! Good old boy![/quote]

Dude, isnt he married with a kid?  if so...... that really wasnt a clever thing to write.

[/quote]

No he isnt married, well im pretty sure he isnt! If im wrong then this could be a Jeremy Kyle situation!

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One of Doc or Stefanovic will be off , whoever we get a bid for i expect.

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[quote user="USAcanary"][quote user="jimidack"][quote user="JuanVelasco"]

[quote user="Houston Canary"]I would hate to lose D''OHerty after he anchored out defense for the last 4 or 5 years, including 2 relegations.  We can''t afford to lose such a quality talent with that  kind of impact on the team.   [/quote]

Its ok for you to say sitting behind your laptop in Houston. Doherty was playing his best football for us last season.

[/quote]

From what I can see from the original quote, he is just stating a fact. In the last 4-5 years Doc has been our first choice centre back and we have gotten worse year by year.

I do think it is merely a coincidence but it''s hard to ignore.
[/quote]

I dont think Roeder would agree with that.

He saw Doc as nothing more than a 3rd choice CB as he started the season with Dejan and Kennedy

I think losing both those players through injury led to a lot of our problems.

[/quote]

 

Kennedy apart from the serious injuries hes had over a number of years would probably be a quality CB but that was the reason he came to Norwich. He was a slow liability in his last games for us and was not missed in the end!

 

Obviously Stefanovics injury was a big blow but while the bloke was a cultured footballer his defending at times could of been better.

 

Our best CB pairing was when the Doc was reunited with Shackell. Yes both not cultured but certainly better stoppers than both Stefanovic and Kennedy which is the most important aspect of being a defender!

 

I''ve said it before this Docherty/Shackell bashing, "Doc and Shackell are crap" rubbish is so wide of the mark and in reality factually incorrect!

 

Docherty was one of our few decent players and either him or Clingan should of been player of the year.

 

As previous posters have mentioned our defensive frailties were more to do with other players than Docherty! 

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Just seen another post which says the Doc is slow?

 

What a load of ballocks and incorrect stereotyping of the Doc!

 

He isn''t the fastest but hes certainly not slow as he showed last year when he outpaced Earnie a few times in the home game. One of John Kennedys failings was his lack of the neccesary tip top fitness which meant he was slow and it was embarrassing watching him get outpaced by Shefki Kuqi!

 

Keeping our best defender from the last few years - The Doc must be a priority if we are to make a serious go of getting promoted back into the Championship!

 

If this new guy Nelson is 3/4''  as good as what the Doc is then we''ll have a good signing!

 

Never ceases to amaze me how so many fans get blinded by incorrect stereotypes!

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[quote user="grantroederdisaster"]

Just seen another post which says the Doc is slow?

 

What a load of ballocks and incorrect stereotyping of the Doc!

 

He isn''t the fastest but hes certainly not slow as he showed last year when he outpaced Earnie a few times in the home game. One of John Kennedys failings was his lack of the neccesary tip top fitness which meant he was slow and it was embarrassing watching him get outpaced by Shefki Kuqi!

 

Keeping our best defender from the last few years - The Doc must be a priority if we are to make a serious go of getting promoted back into the Championship!

 

If this new guy Nelson is 3/4''  as good as what the Doc is then we''ll have a good signing!

 

Never ceases to amaze me how so many fans get blinded by incorrect stereotypes!

[/quote]

Well said mate, people just dont realise that Championship quality players are going to be very hard to come by. I think we have just signed one, Owain Tudor Jones, but the other two are probably two thirds of a Gary Doherty.

We need to keep hold of a proven capable defender whilst we have him, we arent going to get another one very easily.

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[quote user="CanaryRyan"][quote user="JuanVelasco"]

[quote user="CanaryRyan"]My dad is actually doing some building work at the Doc''s house and the Doc said he werent sure on whether he was going or not because there have been no offers for him! My dad also said that a very attractive young lady came out of the Doc''s house half naked after he went clubbing! Good old boy![/quote]

Dude, isnt he married with a kid?  if so...... that really wasnt a clever thing to write.

[/quote]

No he isnt married, well im pretty sure he isnt! If im wrong then this could be a Jeremy Kyle situation!

[/quote]

 

Jeremy Kyle. Can''t Stand That Show! Its Rubbish.

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I really don''t understand why Doc gets so much stick, thought he was one of our better players for the last few months of the season plus he plays with his heart on his sleeve.

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[quote user="cityangel"]I really don''t understand why Doc gets so much stick, thought he was one of our better players for the last few months of the season plus he plays with his heart on his sleeve.[/quote]

 

Stereotypes and people jumping onto a bandwagon!

 

I''ll agree with anyone that the ginger Pele has had his stinkers in the past but over the last 2 seasons he has been mostly outstanding,easily one of our best players!

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If he stays and plays we will be mid table at best next year.  He must have been responsible to the loss of ten points single handedly solely from the free kicks around the box and penalties he gave away.  The quicker he leaves the better.

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