Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
NMTD

Club takeover - Criterion Café 2009

Recommended Posts

Norwich City F.C. was formed following a meeting at the Criterion Cafe in Norwich on 17 June 1902 by a group of friends led by two former Norwich CEYMS players, Robert Webster and Joseph Cowper.

With our club, now on its knee’s, in desperate need of new ownership, I feel that the time is right for a new Criterion Café moment in the history of our club.

People say there are no investors out there? There maybe no big investors – and indeed if we got one we may just end up in the same position as we are now – with no real say over the running of the club. But how about if we could get 50,000 small investors to buy the club?

Couldn’t be done I hear you say? Impossible dream?

Well, I say different….

In 2007, MyFootballClub.co.uk bought Ebsfleet Utd for £600,000 whilst charging an annual subscription of £35 per subscriber using a company My Football Club Society Ltd incorporated as an Industrial and Provident Society as the vehicle. Subscribers come from over 80 countries. Do the maths – that means nearly 20,000 people.

Barcelona, one of the most successful clubs in history, is owned by 150,000 members via a Member-Owned Social Club

The current Supporters Trust, the Kitty, and individuals buying existing shares are really only perpetuating the current structure of the club, and don’t have the appeal of a full takeover. Nothing will change as the supporters are and will stay still a very minority voice in terms of ownership under these schemes.

Using the MyFootballClub.co.uk fund raising model combined with the management ethos of a Member-Owned Social Club, with a sole aim of taking over a named football club would generate huge worldwide coverage. To raise the required funds to buy Norwich City the scheme would need to operate at a much higher subscription rate than £35 that funded the purchase of Ebsfleet, but I think it could be achieved. Real fans now getting on average £75 rebate on their season tickets would go for a higher premium if they really had part ownership and control, and this would be supplemented by the worldwide community who would want to be part of a phenomenon. To make it viable I think that we’d have to look at a year 1 subscription rate of £30 / month and £10 / month afterwards.

In brief, the society acts as a kind of savings club, with all funds securely invested under the watchful eye of the FSA with the sole purpose of purchasing Norwich City FC. If that does not occur in a given period – all capital is returned, so there is no risk to the ‘investor’ during the fund building period.

Decisions are made by the subscriber base – the fans have real control.

However, this is not a proposal without controversy. It would be very much a business transaction, and the optimum time to buy would not be now. It would most certainly be when and if the club enters administration and all that would mean for the current majority and other shareholders, and current creditors of the club.

I would encourage you to read about how MyFootballClub.co.uk works, find out a bit of history on FC. Barcelona and then judge if you think this is a daft idea or if it could work.

I would be interested in your opinions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Criterion Cafe is now Moss Bros in White Lion Street which, in terms of football financing, pretty much says it all I think.

[:|]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I''ve often thought about the merits of a fan-based takeover. And I have to say, for a club like Norwich, I don''t think it could work in any capacity without some sort of wealthy backer.The examples you use are very specific to each club. Myfootballwriter rode on a crest of publicity - and then used that to buy publicity to buy a small, Blue Square club with no debt and fewer overheads to take over.  Barcelona is a huge club with a much, much larger support base than us. You mention 150,000 people - we wouldn''t get anywhere near that amount.Lincoln is another club who have done similar.  http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2001/jan/13/football.vivekchaudhary . Again, though, Lincoln had much lower debt and fewer contractual obligations, as a smaller club in League One.Any person looking to take over this club must take into account the debt at this club. Either they would need to renegotiate the conditions of the debt or pay it off in full. Either way, that would present a unique challenge to a fan-based take over. Even with Norwich''s loyal fan base, I think you would struggle to get more than 15,000 members - I genuinely don''t think that a number like that could support the club in it''s state. And that''s before people grow disillusioned with it and withdraw their support because their opinion is not being listened to under what I assume would be a majority rules system.It''s a nice idea, but one I think just would not work for a club like Norwich. I do think, however, it''ll be the way forward for non-league and semi-professional clubs. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Camuldonum"]

The Criterion Cafe is now Moss Bros in White Lion Street which, in terms of football financing, pretty much says it all I think.

[:|]

[/quote]

PS: You have, of course, factored in the debt of around about £22m which would be repayable on a change of ownership haven''t you?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="NMTD"]

Norwich City F.C. was formed following a meeting at the Criterion Cafe in Norwich on 17 June 1902 by a group of friends led by two former Norwich CEYMS players, Robert Webster and Joseph Cowper.

With our club, now on its knee’s, in desperate need of new ownership, I feel that the time is right for a new Criterion Café moment in the history of our club.

People say there are no investors out there? There maybe no big investors – and indeed if we got one we may just end up in the same position as we are now – with no real say over the running of the club. But how about if we could get 50,000 small investors to buy the club?

Couldn’t be done I hear you say? Impossible dream?

Well, I say different….

In 2007, MyFootballClub.co.uk bought Ebsfleet Utd for £600,000 whilst charging an annual subscription of £35 per subscriber using a company My Football Club Society Ltd incorporated as an Industrial and Provident Society as the vehicle. Subscribers come from over 80 countries. Do the maths – that means nearly 20,000 people.

Barcelona, one of the most successful clubs in history, is owned by 150,000 members via a Member-Owned Social Club

The current Supporters Trust, the Kitty, and individuals buying existing shares are really only perpetuating the current structure of the club, and don’t have the appeal of a full takeover. Nothing will change as the supporters are and will stay still a very minority voice in terms of ownership under these schemes.

Using the MyFootballClub.co.uk fund raising model combined with the management ethos of a Member-Owned Social Club, with a sole aim of taking over a named football club would generate huge worldwide coverage. To raise the required funds to buy Norwich City the scheme would need to operate at a much higher subscription rate than £35 that funded the purchase of Ebsfleet, but I think it could be achieved. Real fans now getting on average £75 rebate on their season tickets would go for a higher premium if they really had part ownership and control, and this would be supplemented by the worldwide community who would want to be part of a phenomenon. To make it viable I think that we’d have to look at a year 1 subscription rate of £30 / month and £10 / month afterwards.

In brief, the society acts as a kind of savings club, with all funds securely invested under the watchful eye of the FSA with the sole purpose of purchasing Norwich City FC. If that does not occur in a given period – all capital is returned, so there is no risk to the ‘investor’ during the fund building period.

Decisions are made by the subscriber base – the fans have real control.

However, this is not a proposal without controversy. It would be very much a business transaction, and the optimum time to buy would not be now. It would most certainly be when and if the club enters administration and all that would mean for the current majority and other shareholders, and current creditors of the club.

I would encourage you to read about how MyFootballClub.co.uk works, find out a bit of history on FC. Barcelona and then judge if you think this is a daft idea or if it could work.

I would be interested in your opinions.

[/quote]What are knee''s?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Camuldonum"][quote user="Camuldonum"]

The Criterion Cafe is now Moss Bros in White Lion Street which, in terms of football financing, pretty much says it all I think.

[:|]

[/quote]

PS: You have, of course, factored in the debt of around about £22m which would be repayable on a change of ownership haven''t you?

[/quote]

PS. You obviously didn''t read my post properly - I said it would only work in the advent of administration - and everyone''s "investment" is safe until that happens.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="TheMarshmallowMonkey"]I''ve often thought about the merits of a fan-based takeover. And I have to say, for a club like Norwich, I don''t think it could work in any capacity without some sort of wealthy backer.

The examples you use are very specific to each club. Myfootballwriter rode on a crest of publicity - and then used that to buy publicity to buy a small, Blue Square club with no debt and fewer overheads to take over.  Barcelona is a huge club with a much, much larger support base than us. You mention 150,000 people - we wouldn''t get anywhere near that amount.

Lincoln is another club who have done similar.  http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2001/jan/13/football.vivekchaudhary . Again, though, Lincoln had much lower debt and fewer contractual obligations, as a smaller club in League One.

Any person looking to take over this club must take into account the debt at this club. Either they would need to renegotiate the conditions of the debt or pay it off in full. Either way, that would present a unique challenge to a fan-based take over. Even with Norwich''s loyal fan base, I think you would struggle to get more than 15,000 members - I genuinely don''t think that a number like that could support the club in it''s state. And that''s before people grow disillusioned with it and withdraw their support because their opinion is not being listened to under what I assume would be a majority rules system.

It''s a nice idea, but one I think just would not work for a club like Norwich. I do think, however, it''ll be the way forward for non-league and semi-professional clubs. 
[/quote]

Get a grip OP! I was personally involved in the Lincoln City saga when we set up a personal message board so as to get shot of the Smudger''s of this world who are no ******* use (pardon my language, gal) when you are dealing with professional administrators.  Over 300 people were left with hours not to save the club from going bankrupt but from going out of existence.

I listened, as did many friends, to the Administrator saying: "Yes, I know the club has a wonderful history and I am sympathetic to that personally but, in law, I cannot allow such sympathy to prevail." [+o(]  Meetings with the administrator at well gone midnight.

We did it, not with £30 quid a month but with the money upfront.  In my case nearly £12,000 up front - miniscule money by the standards of today.  I know one Lincoln supporter who put it over £30,000.  Others chipped in what they could.

Norwich may be struggling financially but they are not in the situation Lincoln faced.  We were indeed the founders of the Supporters Trust - Exeter''s are majority shareholders as well - but we did not have a £22m debt to confront, otherwise we would have been sunk.  It was bad enough as it was.

On the bright side of life this year is the 125th anniversary of the Mighty Imps - Lincoln Green shirt already paid for, stuck in League Two (or the Fourth Division if you will) but it''s still going. 

Yes, the Supporters Trust does have an import - it okayed our current Manager for example - but that comes at a price which isn''t going to be £30 a month if you wish Norwich to create such a thing.

But it was also done "at our level" which is not yours, including your current fall from grace.  The highest paid player at Lincoln is on £51,000 a year currently.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
It''s an interesting idea and I would love it to work. Say the club could be bought by the supporters, what ideas have people got to try and make it as profitable as possible? Is it servicing the debt that makes City unprofitable, poor financial management, or simply the game itself - high player wages and agents fees etc?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="NMTD"][quote user="Camuldonum"][quote user="Camuldonum"]

The Criterion Cafe is now Moss Bros in White Lion Street which, in terms of football financing, pretty much says it all I think.

[:|]

[/quote]

PS: You have, of course, factored in the debt of around about £22m which would be repayable on a change of ownership haven''t you?

[/quote]

PS. You obviously didn''t read my post properly - I said it would only work in the advent of administration - and everyone''s "investment" is safe until that happens.

[/quote]

FFS dear.  Adminstrators want the money UP FRONT, cash in hand reddies, NOT whatever a month.  No cheques, Banker''s Draft or cash.  The consortium attempting to buy Southampton have put up £500,000 on the table (non refundable either way) so that is half a million just to carry on talking.

[:|]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Camuldonum"][quote user="NMTD"][quote user="Camuldonum"][quote user="Camuldonum"]

The Criterion Cafe is now Moss Bros in White Lion Street which, in terms of football financing, pretty much says it all I think.

[:|]

[/quote]

PS: You have, of course, factored in the debt of around about £22m which would be repayable on a change of ownership haven''t you?

[/quote]

PS. You obviously didn''t read my post properly - I said it would only work in the advent of administration - and everyone''s "investment" is safe until that happens.

[/quote]

FFS dear.  Adminstrators want the money UP FRONT, cash in hand reddies, NOT whatever a month.  No cheques, Banker''s Draft or cash.  The consortium attempting to buy Southampton have put up £500,000 on the table (non refundable either way) so that is half a million just to carry on talking.

[:|]

[/quote]

Change of majority shareholders before administration triggers the repayment of the loans.  I believe you. £30 a month it is then.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Why don''t you just go to the match on Saturday and enjoy the game instead of all this melodramatic "desperate need for new ownership"? Delia does what you ask of her.You want rid if Worthington? Well out he goes. You want rid of Peter the Poiner? Well out he goes. You want rid of Glen Roeder? Well out he goes? You want rid of Neil Doncaster? Well out he goes. You want rid of Roger Munby? Well out he goes. You and your lot have been pushing the club destruct button for years and that is what has brought the Club to its current position in League One. Leave the ownership in the hands of Delia and if you are not happy about it go down to one of the many coffee shops in Norwich (your choice) or Bury and form another Club with your mates..

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Camuldonum"][quote user="NMTD"][quote user="Camuldonum"][quote user="Camuldonum"]

The Criterion Cafe is now Moss Bros in White Lion Street which, in terms of football financing, pretty much says it all I think.

[:|]

[/quote]

PS: You have, of course, factored in the debt of around about £22m which would be repayable on a change of ownership haven''t you?

[/quote]

PS. You obviously didn''t read my post properly - I said it would only work in the advent of administration - and everyone''s "investment" is safe until that happens.

[/quote]

FFS dear.  Adminstrators want the money UP FRONT, cash in hand reddies, NOT whatever a month.  No cheques, Banker''s Draft or cash.  The consortium attempting to buy Southampton have put up £500,000 on the table (non refundable either way) so that is half a million just to carry on talking.

[:|]

[/quote]

I suggested in my original post that readers study how myfootballclub.co.uk worked - I still don''t think you have done that, and I think you are assuming that I am saying that we could takeover the club right now at this point in time - I have not said this at all.

myfootballclub.co.uk raised their money WORLDWIDE over a period of time before they could make any bid - I''m not so thick as as to think we could buy the club on the never, never.

If the club was sold or went into administration before the scheme had enough hard cash we wouldn''t be in the game - and the subscribers get their money back - no one loses.

If however, it was 1 year plus before the opportunity arose to buy the club via administration, the scheme would have raised considerable sums. With £22M debt at point of administration and a 5p in the pound settlement (remember Ipswich) plus the nominal value of the shares, the purchase price of the club could be a lot less than everyone thinks. Existing shareholders and creditors lose out big time. The administrators job is to get the best price for the creditors - if thats 5p in the pound - they would take it.  

Why are you being so defensive against the idea? Do you happen to think that it might just work....

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Bobert"]

Why don''t you just go to the match on Saturday and enjoy the game instead of all this melodramatic "desperate need for new ownership"? Delia does what you ask of her.You want rid if Worthington? Well out he goes. You want rid of Peter the Poiner? Well out he goes. You want rid of Glen Roeder? Well out he goes? You want rid of Neil Doncaster? Well out he goes. You want rid of Roger Munby? Well out he goes. You and your lot have been pushing the club destruct button for years and that is what has brought the Club to its current position in League One. Leave the ownership in the hands of Delia and if you are not happy about it go down to one of the many coffee shops in Norwich (your choice) or Bury and form another Club with your mates..

[/quote]

Or as Mr Worthington put it not that long ago: "Once bitten, twice shy I think."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="NMTD"][quote user="Camuldonum"][quote user="NMTD"][quote user="Camuldonum"][quote user="Camuldonum"]

The Criterion Cafe is now Moss Bros in White Lion Street which, in terms of football financing, pretty much says it all I think.

[:|]

[/quote]

PS: You have, of course, factored in the debt of around about £22m which would be repayable on a change of ownership haven''t you?

[/quote]

PS. You obviously didn''t read my post properly - I said it would only work in the advent of administration - and everyone''s "investment" is safe until that happens.

[/quote]

FFS dear.  Adminstrators want the money UP FRONT, cash in hand reddies, NOT whatever a month.  No cheques, Banker''s Draft or cash.  The consortium attempting to buy Southampton have put up £500,000 on the table (non refundable either way) so that is half a million just to carry on talking.

[:|]

[/quote]

I suggested in my original post that readers study how myfootballclub.co.uk worked - I still don''t think you have done that, and I think you are assuming that I am saying that we could takeover the club right now at this point in time - I have not said this at all.

myfootballclub.co.uk raised their money WORLDWIDE over a period of time before they could make any bid - I''m not so thick as as to think we could buy the club on the never, never.

If the club was sold or went into administration before the scheme had enough hard cash we wouldn''t be in the game - and the subscribers get their money back - no one loses.

If however, it was 1 year plus before the opportunity arose to buy the club via administration, the scheme would have raised considerable sums. With £22M debt at point of administration and a 5p in the pound settlement (remember Ipswich) plus the nominal value of the shares, the purchase price of the club could be a lot less than everyone thinks. Existing shareholders and creditors lose out big time. The administrators job is to get the best price for the creditors - if thats 5p in the pound - they would take it.  

Why are you being so defensive against the idea? Do you happen to think that it might just work....

 

[/quote]

"Lincoln City announce a further friendly in their pre-season build up to League Two.

"On July 8 the club will be away to Atletico Narnia (Unibond North)."

Good luck with the Ipswich formula.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Bobert"]

...Delia does what you ask of her.You want rid if Worthington? Well out he goes. You want rid of Peter the Poiner? Well out he goes. You want rid of Glen Roeder? Well out he goes? You want rid of Neil Doncaster? Well out he goes. You want rid of Roger Munby? Well out he goes.....

[/quote]

Only one more wish to go....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="NMTD"][quote user="Bobert"]

...Delia does what you ask of her.You want rid if Worthington? Well out he goes. You want rid of Peter the Poiner? Well out he goes. You want rid of Glen Roeder? Well out he goes? You want rid of Neil Doncaster? Well out he goes. You want rid of Roger Munby? Well out he goes.....

[/quote]

Only one more wish to go....

[/quote]

On behalf of the rest of the Village Idiots League I commend your policy.  Go for it!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The jury is still out on the myfootballclub model, and I certainly wouldn’t be holding it up as an example of a successful way to fund and run a football club.

I am actually a member of it. It looked promising at the start, the problem has been keeping that interest. You’re correct that at the start there was just over 20,000 members who invested 35GBP for one year’s membership, which raised enough money for the club purchase, and a decent playing budget for last season. The problem has been that interest has dropped since the initial take over, so much so that not even a quarter of the club members have renewed for a second year. As a result, the club is looking at a significantly lower playing budget for the coming season, needing to come up with other ways to increase money, and are constantly asking for members to put in more money.

Why has interest dropped so much? Well, I can only speak for myself, but I think it’s a combination of reasons like time, location of the club selected, but the main one for me is the “committee” aspect simply doesn’t work. As always, the more vocal people on the website appear to try and run the show, and alienate sensible people who can''t dedicate the same amount of time as the others. People who frequent this message board will be familiar with the type of "keyboard warriors" I’m talking about. Of course, it’s the same on any forum.

Personally, I signed up for an initial 2 years to myFC, because I believed in the concept. But, for many reasons my interest has waned. I won''t be signing up for a third. I do wish the concept all the best, but unless there is considerable investment coming from somewhere, I don''t think it’s going to work.

And there it is, the “I” word again... The “I” word sound familiar?

In my opinion, design by committee rarely works.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You actually have to get the members to sign up with a standing order on the bank and refuse to take a subscription any other way. Members forget it is there until they receive a bank statement after it has been paid and even then they forget to cancel as most banks require the cancellation to be in writing.

Committes get taken over by cliques, many peddling their own agenda, and you need a strong Chairman who is generally respected to run them successfully. It is important that there are no freebees for the members of the Committee. No free entrance, no free parking, no expenses no special seats, no badges.

Five identifiable, unelected rogues are best ,all owning less than 30%, who are known and live in the community. The garage owner, the Council Leader, the Factory Owner, the wife of the Land owner and the sporting icon is a perfection.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont think £30 a month will go far towards the buying the club.

being realistic if you got 35,000 members to buy the blub and clear the debt would be something in the region of £50m based on the numbers being quoted last year.  Even if you knock a bit off due to relegation and say £40m you would still need to find £1140 each to do this.

I cant see 35k members being interested at that ammount to be honest.

its a nice idea and I would be interested in supporting such a venture.  I have a couple of £k of shares in the club from the share floating scheme in 2003/4.  Are these shares classed as debt to the club and would be included in any £40m payment?

If so then maybe asking people to write those shares off and the £ with it might be an option?  I would be prepaired to do so.....just a thought.

Rich

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...