19 games is enough

[ricky knight 0]

Chirp instead of getting all uppity why dont you tell us why Gunn is the man for the job, at least others are putting their point across.

[chicken 0]

[quote user="Gunns NO Legend"]Its not over and will be a talking point early in the new season when the WE WANT GUNN OUT chants ring around Carrow Road .Stupid appointment , and without a shadow of a doubt the worst one we could have made.[/quote]Not sure about that - you are talking about the current board arn''t you? Grant, Roeder and Hamilton . . . . . . . the worse appointment we could have made? That sounds like the sort of challenge our board would love to rise to . . . please don''t tempt them!

[The Chirp 0]

But it''s been made... unless you (as in the royal you) are thick you must see that being outwardly against him from the word go and making it known from the word go is only ever going to hinder the team and it''s progress...It''s been done to death on here and i am pretty sure some people on here don''t have the sense to see the other side of any discussion let alone this one... but if you want Norwich to do well and succeed you need to back the appointment and give it a chance... If we''re doing average by say november time then sure go for him but still moaning about it now is just a bit... well it makes you look like a bit of a moron. Sure you''ll have an answer for this but it won''t be anything new or anything i haven''t read on here... Like it or not, he''s the boss and if you''re a fan of this club you''ll get over your frustration at this appointment and support him. If however you''re a bit lacking in the brains department you''ll carry on venting your anger at the apppointment all through the summer.

[chicken 0]

[quote user="ricky knight"]Chirp instead of getting all uppity why dont you tell us why Gunn is the man for the job, at least others are putting their point across.[/quote]At the end of the day I think you will always disagree. I can''t talk for chirp here but personally I would like Gunn to get the time that you would give to any new manager to put a team together and prove his worth. He may well be another flukelike Worthington.As you have said in your arguments you have made so far that total of 19 games has come down to the last 6. For that I would just say that there have only been two or three seasons since the current board took over, where the team has been able to shake off the nerves and pressure and play teams and win when it really matters. The play off final season - to some extent, the promotion season, and for parts of the premieship season such as against Man U and away to Middlesborough.There have been varying reasons given as to why - sometimes the expectancy levels of the fans leading to some players being scared to take risks etc, the players not being good enough mentally, the management being to kind and not getting the team to fight as well as play etc etc etc.My opinion? Our fans can be vocal - but the modern perception of football is that your players must earn the right to be cheered - or at least that is the opinion that people tend to give on here. I remember the days when we cheered even when we were loosing, we would sing for 90mins just to keep the oppo fans quiet and to spur our guys on.I am talking about getting behind players like Carey, Forbes (Adrian) and Milligan - not the clubs most fondly remembered players by any stretch of the imagination.When it comes down to it we haven''t been able to cut the mustard when push comes to shove for quite some time. Gunn said that drawing would get us no where and that wins were what we had to achieve. That lead to very open football - but the situation rather required it. Perhaps we could have been more cautious in those last few games but in fairness the only reason we were still in with a chance is because other teams slipped up - we should have been dead and burried along time before the last day of the season.

[chicken 0]

[quote user="The Chirp"]But it''s been made... unless you (as in the royal you) are thick you must see that being outwardly against him from the word go and making it known from the word go is only ever going to hinder the team and it''s progress...It''s been done to death on here and i am pretty sure some people on here don''t have the sense to see the other side of any discussion let alone this one... but if you want Norwich to do well and succeed you need to back the appointment and give it a chance... If we''re doing average by say november time then sure go for him but still moaning about it now is just a bit... well it makes you look like a bit of a moron. Sure you''ll have an answer for this but it won''t be anything new or anything i haven''t read on here... Like it or not, he''s the boss and if you''re a fan of this club you''ll get over your frustration at this appointment and support him. If however you''re a bit lacking in the brains department you''ll carry on venting your anger at the apppointment all through the summer.[/quote]Chirp - I think you have the wrong end of the stick. Ricky has effectively asked for reasons why we should feel confident that Gunn can do it. He isn''t suggesting Gunn should go - just whether or not we feel he would be a success and if so why?My point of view is that I shall judge him on the players he brings in and what he managers to get out of them in the first few games of next season - something most fans would do with any other new manager. But I guess that is because I would like to put last season behind me and allow Gunn a fresh start/clean slate.So essentially in answer to Ricky I have no real proof that he will succeed nor blinkered belief that he will, just that I need to see more before I am convinced either way.

[city-till-i-die 7]

[quote user="Spineless Fooks"]I agree. He had enough time and failed in his job.[/quote]agree

[chichcanary 0]

Back to Guus

2 reasons you can''t compare his situation to Gunn

1 - Guus is one of the best managers in the world, Gunn is a novice

2 - Chelsea have a massively strong squad. I suspect one way to really motivate someone like eg Ballack is to drop him and put in someone like Deco

It kind of helps them having virtually 2 internationals in every position - sadly not quite a luxury Gunn had

[The Chirp 0]

[quote user="ricky knight"]Chirp instead of getting all uppity why dont you tell us why Gunn is the man for the job, at least others are putting their point across.[/quote]I''m not being uppity as you put it - and if it comes across that way then my apologies. I''ve put my opinions on why he''s the man for the job many times... In fact, i''ll write it out again and cut and paste it into a word doc so i don''t have to do it again... Here goes... 1. Firstly, the point about ''19 games'' is pretty thin. He had 13 days to sign anyone on a full time basis. He was stuck going into the final 19 games with Roeder''s squad of loanees. Morale was at an all time low in the squad and serious freshening up was needed. 2. Most of the funds available for signings had been used up by the previous boss so his hands were tied. Omozuzi...Sibieski... Lupoli3. The morale of the poor team was improved. 4. He got in players we should have been going for at the beginning of the season in Mooney, Gow and Lee. 5. He saw that Fotheringham wasn''t delivering the goods, neither was Pattison (imo.. this is hotly debated I know. I personnally think Patty is a very poor central midfielder... Not a defensive bone in his body... See Forest at home) neither was Curo after coming back. 6. Has excellent connections in the game. 7. He, and Butterworth have good knowledge of the lower leagues (butts with being an assistant Gunn as a cheif scout of sorts).8. He knows the players Norwich need now, he''s seen the games the attitude, what works... and importantly what doesn''t. He knows how the board works, he knows the fans (in part sadly) the area, how to sell the area to new players. 9. He was the cheap option. It''''s something a lot of you will jump on but it has to be taken into account. A new manager even one who unattached will either straight away or eventually want a new backroom staff. We need this money to be spent on players. 10. With Crook I think we have a coach who''ll get us playing attractive football, in Butt''s we have a good defensive coach (boy we''ve needed one of those!)11. If we got someone else in who is to say you would have faith in that appointment anyway? Would you have trusted the board to appoint someone decent? Would you even know much about that appointment? Bar it being Jewell, Pards, Ince, Aidy etc I would imagine a lot of you would say... oh here we go again... lack of ambition... Robins would have cost us a fair amount of money to get him out of Rotherham before you bring him up. 12. This really is the boards last chance, they know it, we know it, the media knows it. They know they have backed the manager when many of the fans would have pushed him to the wayside... they will have to back him in the pocket as well... They know failure to reach at the very least the playoffs could cause the complete ruin of NCFC. 13. He knows all the youth players right down from the 13 year olds to the 2 year YTS''. This is really important foor Norwich, we need to produce youngsters and play them... This is our bread and butter... Gunn wasn''t afraid to use some of them and next season this will continue. 14. I like the guy and have faith that he''ll sort us out. - Faith is a big thing you know... Many of you have rightly lost your faith in the board, and a lot of you have lost it in Gunn... But 19 games in the situation Norwich were in with the squad we had isn''t the sort of situation to truly judge a man. If it were 19 games from the start of the season where he had the time to sign his own men etc etc then I would be right with you, pitch fork out and demanding Gunn to go...  But it was in a dire situation. It''s not ''just'' and fair to judge him on last season. That''s why I back him... Right... i''m gonna copy and paste this... :-)

[The Chirp 0]

[quote user="chicken"][quote user="The Chirp"]But it''s been made... unless you (as in the royal you) are thick you must see that being outwardly against him from the word go and making it known from the word go is only ever going to hinder the team and it''s progress...It''s been done to death on here and i am pretty sure some people on here don''t have the sense to see the other side of any discussion let alone this one... but if you want Norwich to do well and succeed you need to back the appointment and give it a chance... If we''re doing average by say november time then sure go for him but still moaning about it now is just a bit... well it makes you look like a bit of a moron. Sure you''ll have an answer for this but it won''t be anything new or anything i haven''t read on here... Like it or not, he''s the boss and if you''re a fan of this club you''ll get over your frustration at this appointment and support him. If however you''re a bit lacking in the brains department you''ll carry on venting your anger at the apppointment all through the summer.[/quote]Chirp - I think you have the wrong end of the stick. Ricky has effectively asked for reasons why we should feel confident that Gunn can do it. He isn''t suggesting Gunn should go - just whether or not we feel he would be a success and if so why?My point of view is that I shall judge him on the players he brings in and what he managers to get out of them in the first few games of next season - something most fans would do with any other new manager. But I guess that is because I would like to put last season behind me and allow Gunn a fresh start/clean slate.So essentially in answer to Ricky I have no real proof that he will succeed nor blinkered belief that he will, just that I need to see more before I am convinced either way.[/quote]

hopefully i have explained in my last post why i think he will take us forward... fair enough though my comment didn''t answer ricky''s question.. hopefully the last post has done.

[Michael Bailey - Sportsdesk 0]

[quote user="Sports Desk - Michael"]Two words: Glenn Roeder.[/quote]

Maybe I should make it clearer. Glenn Roeder''s first 19 games.

[ricky knight 0]

[quote user="chichcanary"]

Back to Guus

2 reasons you can''t compare his situation to Gunn

1 - Guus is one of the best managers in the world, Gunn is a novice

2 - Chelsea have a massively strong squad. I suspect one way to really motivate someone like eg Ballack is to drop him and put in someone like Deco

It kind of helps them having virtually 2 internationals in every position - sadly not quite a luxury Gunn had

[/quote]

but the team what won the cup was the one that was not working for the previous manager nearly man for man.

[chichcanary 0]

I don''t follow Chelski that closely.. but I think Guus did change the forward line (playing Annelka and Drogba together)

Also it''s the principle of the thing - a few bad games and someone good can take your place

That was never an option for us unfortunately

 

[ricky knight 0]

I thought Gunn was part of transfers before he was manager, were we not tapping in on his exellent contacts, sorry but where are these contacts we keep hearing about. The bit i cant get over is, yes the team might not be good enough but they went down without a fight, winning one of the last five was not good enough, they no showed, showed no motivation which a manager should be able to get 100 percent out of even in a losing performance, Reading second half and Charlton we stuck out the white flag which was a disgrace. I have seen City relegated before but always felt we could come back, we did three times, this time i only feel things will get worse and Gunn is part of the reason.

[The Chirp 0]

[quote user="ricky knight"]I thought Gunn was part of transfers before he was manager, were we not tapping in on his exellent contacts, sorry but where are these contacts we keep hearing about. The bit i cant get over is, yes the team might not be good enough but they went down without a fight, winning one of the last five was not good enough, they no showed, showed no motivation which a manager should be able to get 100 percent out of even in a losing performance, Reading second half and Charlton we stuck out the white flag which was a disgrace. I have seen City relegated before but always felt we could come back, we did three times, this time i only feel things will get worse and Gunn is part of the reason.[/quote]Thing is... this point on paper is great... and i would totally agree with you... However... Gunn wasn''t the boss. Gunn would have been told what sort of player to look for (i.e loans from the prem) ... End of the day Roeder makes the call who they are to sign, Roeder and his team would have then watched the majority of the players who they were interested in. This won''t be shocking news to you, but Roeder didn''t listen to anyone. Gunn might have said, hey there''s this guy playing for dartford we should go for him... or... Spillanes doing a good job etc... but Glenn is known for not listening... ask any journo or previous colleague of his.  

[The Chirp 0]

Also... on the point of the last 5 games... Can I ask a question... Who do you think would be more determined to keep their club up... A team such as Barnsley who have the majority of their players on contracts... Or, A team with players loaned from other clubs? This all has to be taken into account... Gunn has to take blame for the relegation of course he does, but the situation he was in crazy. It would have been hard for any manager. 

[xxxx 0]

Gunn would have said what about Killen and Gow , Roeder would have said not good enough , as soon as Gunn was in charge in they come , expect plenty more cheap Scottish rubbish untill Gunns gone.

[ricky knight 0]

Chirp you makes some good points and fair play to you. I really hope i am wrong about Gunn but i had the same worries over Roeder and Grant and i think Gunn is even a worse choice especially where we find ourselves but please God we win the league at a canter and Gunn is the next Clough. 

[The Chirp 0]

Rick, having watched league one football a fair bit, it is going to be a hard season. It will be for all the teams that came down to league one. It''s also more likely than not that Norwich won''t be in the top two. However, it would take near on a miracle worker to get a new team to bed in and win the league or be top at christmas...It''s more likely he''ll fail to get norwich promoted at the first attempt but then again i think it''s a hard job for any manager. I do now though, with the experience of last season behind him and a full pre season ahead of him think he has as good a chance as any manager (within our reach) to take the canaries forward.

[The Chirp 0]

oh and to answer the what about Killen and Gow... I would have gone for Killen too... He was a very good player when he was at motherwell and playing for Oldham (without looking i think that was his previous team?) He had a great record and fitted the bill as a striker available on loan, possible to make it a perm deal if things went well... However the move didn''t work out. That happens in football even to the best players... Gow i actually think is a decent player, but due to lack of options he was played not in his best position up front. Honestly if you came up with a really valid slate at Gunn I would say you''re right but I don''t think you have thus far. not trying to be uppity honest.

[Michael Bates 9]

Roeder turned around Norwich when we were in troubled times.. Saved us from relegation and everything... Then he completely failed in his first full season... Hiddink did a good job but i would have liked to see Hiddink next season with a whole summer for himself and see what he really is about. Would he do any better than Avram Grant/Mourinho?? Doubt it.. At the end of the day, managing Chelsea is a suicidal job. Just like it was to manage Newcastle... And Hiddink isn''t stupid. He has rejected taking it over full time as he is fully aware that the job is a temporary one unless you win the Champs League which they won''t i don''t think. Avram Grant takes them to final and gets sacked. Enough said there..

[ricky knight 0]

[quote user="Michael Bates"]Roeder turned around Norwich when we were in troubled times.. Saved us from relegation and everything... Then he completely failed in his first full season... Hiddink did a good job but i would have liked to see Hiddink next season with a whole summer for himself and see what he really is about. Would he do any better than Avram Grant/Mourinho?? Doubt it.. At the end of the day, managing Chelsea is a suicidal job. Just like it was to manage Newcastle... And Hiddink isn''t stupid. He has rejected taking it over full time as he is fully aware that the job is a temporary one unless you win the Champs League which they won''t i don''t think. Avram Grant takes them to final and gets sacked. Enough said there..[/quote]

Cant argue with that.

 

[hogesar 9,618]

I think Chirp''s made some very good points.Saying that, 19 games is a possible 57 points. And we didn''t pick up enough. And he has to take most of the blame for that, because thats what managers do. If the team fails, the manager is the first to leave, not the entire squad who let him down.You have to think though, had we won against Reading & Charlton and stayed up...the amount of people against the appointment would have reduced. I mean, Wiz would have kissed Gunn''s feet had that of happened - judging by how wildly he changes his opinion. Yet, that would only have been an extra 6 points out of 57. It wouldn''t have made him a better manager - and he''d of been in a more difficult league than this one.

[GJP 79]

He has to be judged as any other manager would be. He chose to take the job when he did so he must have had the belief that he could keep us up.

Gunn had 19 games, plenty of points to play for. It could have been done, teams have been in far bleaker situations and survived.

 

[ricky knight 0]

It would have shown motivation skills i think he lacks, to win them two major games and stay up under our own steam would imo have earned him another season but it was them two games especially which made me feel a new face was needed. Come on they completely no showed Reading second half and Charlton was a blxxdy disgrace in anybodies eyes.

[hogesar 9,618]

[quote user="ricky knight"]It would have shown motivation skills i think he lacks, to win them two major games and stay up under our own steam would imo have earned him another season but it was them two games especially which made me feel a new face was needed. Come on they completely no showed Reading second half and Charlton was a blxxdy disgrace in anybodies eyes.[/quote]True, and thats fair enough. I will say though, those kind of games the manager should not need to motivate the players, if they honestly couldn''t motivate themselves for those two games which meant so much, when are they ever going to be?

[GJP 79]

[quote user="ricky knight"]It would have shown motivation skills i think he lacks, to win them two major games and stay up under our own steam would imo have earned him another season but it was them two games especially which made me feel a new face was needed. Come on they completely no showed Reading second half and Charlton was a blxxdy disgrace in anybodies eyes.[/quote]

To be fair to them I just thought they punched themselves out in the first half against Reading (but that''s not really the point).

But then you look at dead performances like the Sheff Weds game at home... that''s where he should have had them buzzing.

He hasn''t really justified staying on. There no real signs of improvement. A couple of decent loan signings but nothing of any real substance.

[ricky knight 0]

[quote user="hogesar"][quote user="ricky knight"]It would have shown motivation skills i think he lacks, to win them two major games and stay up under our own steam would imo have earned him another season but it was them two games especially which made me feel a new face was needed. Come on they completely no showed Reading second half and Charlton was a blxxdy disgrace in anybodies eyes.[/quote]

True, and thats fair enough. I will say though, those kind of games the manager should not need to motivate the players, if they honestly couldn''t motivate themselves for those two games which meant so much, when are they ever going to be?
[/quote]

A good manager gives you the belief you can win, makes you feel like a million dollars when you walk out and you want to win for him. To be honest no Gunn interview has inspired me when he said we would stay up, it was not said with belief, i find him a very boring orater but again, imo.

[The Chirp 0]

thing is... back to the point i made earlier... these players on the whole were either not good enough on contracts (otsemobor russell etc) or loan players who at the end of the season are on their way... it matters to them but not as much as a player playing for sheff weds (who at the time it was poss they could go down) coventry (the same) reading (could have gone up) or charlton (pressure off, but playing for their contract to be renewed etc) Just saying ''oh if he was a decent manager he could motivate them enough is total rubbish unlless you can back it up... to the poster above who said other managers have kept teams up in that situation... i ask..who? what team? and when? The answer is there has NEVER been a team in the situation norwich were in... 17 loan players in a season, a board who penny pinch and a team made up of loans... No team has been in that situation before... if they had, it wouldn''t have been such a talking point in the media. So that''s rubbish, i am sorry to say but it is. It was a dire situation and i am close to actually being angry that the board allowed that situation to occur. And before you say gunn added to the loans he had no choice (13 days in charge and zero funds to afford signing the players good enough to get us out of this mess)

[xxxx 0]

Gunns team , of mostly players he himself brought to the club or reintroduced back into the team failed to show up match after match , anybody trying to spin Gunn as any kind of manager whatsoever is quite frankly stupid .Worst manager in this clubs history and i fully expect him to be sacked early next season  , in a nutshell he hasnt got a clue and didnt have from day 1. Gunn relegated a side any half decent manager would have kept up and is still in the job because Delia likes a yes man at the helm and he is as cheap as dirt .

[hogesar 9,618]

[quote user="Gunns NO Legend"]Gunns team , of mostly players he himself brought to the club or reintroduced back into the team failed to show up match after match , anybody trying to spin Gunn as any kind of manager whatsoever is quite frankly stupid .Worst manager in this clubs history and i fully expect him to be sacked early next season  , in a nutshell he hasnt got a clue and didnt have from day 1. Gunn relegated a side any half decent manager would have kept up and is still in the job because Delia likes a yes man at the helm and he is as cheap as dirt .[/quote]Any half decent manager would have kept up a squad made fundamentally out of loan players, some of which were awful, and then contracted players of which only one or two were any good? Well, in my opinion that would mean Sir Alex isn''t quite ''half decent'' yet, as im not sure he''d of kept us up.