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birdman

Rebuild from the bottom up

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Ricky Martin has been quoted as saying that many of the Academy players need to go on loan to league 2 clubs, it just shows how stupid the man is, there are no players in the Academy that clubs would want on loan. here are a few of his big mistakes, Damion Lathrope, who Martin and Roeder kept ranting on about a player known to them as Damo, he then struggled to even get in to the Academy team. Kris Renton known as the Big Man to Ricky Martin (hopefully we are not going to mention his broken leg a year an a half ago) went to Kings Lynn and as many Lynn fans will tell you he was slow and Cr@p. When oh when will people see that if the club needs rebuilding the Academy needs to be the place to start and the if your face fits culture needs to be replaced by if your a good footballer you might make it. One of the many x pro''s at the club should be put in charge of the Academy, what other big company can you name with an amateur in charge.

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[quote user="birdman"]Ricky Martin has been quoted as saying that many of the Academy players need to go on loan to league 2 clubs, it just shows how stupid the man is, there are no players in the Academy that clubs would want on loan. here are a few of his big mistakes, Damion Lathrope, who Martin and Roeder kept ranting on about a player known to them as Damo, he then struggled to even get in to the Academy team. Kris Renton known as the Big Man to Ricky Martin (hopefully we are not going to mention his broken leg a year an a half ago) went to Kings Lynn and as many Lynn fans will tell you he was slow and Cr@p. When oh when will people see that if the club needs rebuilding the Academy needs to be the place to start and the if your face fits culture needs to be replaced by if your a good footballer you might make it. One of the many x pro''s at the club should be put in charge of the Academy, what other big company can you name with an amateur in charge.[/quote]

 

Agree!

 

Paul Hayes was chucked out of the club for a discretion and hes now a capable player now in the League above us - He''d do well for us now!

 

We then had to endure Ryan Jarvis and Henderson who were both given 2 years longer than they deserved and it was was obvious long before they were released they were not going to make it!

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There is definetly a problem at the club as to why youngster dont progress with us. But to be fair Henderson looked promising in his first season with the first team even if he did look light-weight, i also saw him play for the england U18''s where he looked really good just behind the forwards, unfortunetaley he didnt develop any further and actually seemed to go majorly back wards. Ryan Jarvis looked really good for England U18''s aswell but again didnt develop, something bad seems to be happening to these players once they reach 18 and start getting involved with the first team, maybe they just arnt winners but have the ability but not the right attitude. I dont for one second think it''s all Ricky Martins Fault, i''m not even sure he''s been the man in charge for all that duration, wasnt Sammy Morgan invloved somewhere.

I also not sure how Paul Hayes have been any good for us he''s come into the championship a few times and never cut it at that level. If he''d been with us and scored only a couple of goals we''d all be saying he wasnt good enough which he wasnt and we could hardly have kept him all that time until now just incase we were playing league 1 football. Maybe if we were to get him now are actually in that divison it might be ok.

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Hayes would do well for us now because we are League 1 , he wont be good enough at Championship level.

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I think you will find that when they reach 18 they start to get trained by Martin, that''s when promising youngsters start to take a step back

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[quote user="birdman"]I think you will find that when they reach 18 they start to get trained by Martin, that''s when promising youngsters start to take a step back[/quote]

Both Ryan Jarvis and Ian Henderson were involved in the first team at 18 years old and would have been training with the first team for long periods. Doesnt Ricky Martin run the Under 18''s?,  I may be wrong of course I assumed that once they started getting to 19-20 they would be part of the first team squad or let go, and I''m not saying he doesnt have a role in their development after they reach 18 but there has been problem''s in the past when they pass over to the first team as alot of these kids look as good as the other premier league academy players and then seem to lose their way completely.

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As someone with experience of the way the Academy people think I can tell you many of the problems are caused by those above Academy level and speads to those below Academy at Player Development Centre level. All they are interested in is "big, strong athletes". OK, maybe at senior level to clog your way out of League 2 but is this the attitude we want at 12 and 13 years olds? How many people would continue wanting to invest in The Academy if they knew that this was the attitude? They are many lads who are now 14, 15 and 16 who have been rejected by the Colney Machine and are now being accpeted by clubs such as Peterborough, Ipswich, Colchester and even Cambridge while Colney continues chanting the mantra started by Nigel Worthington - "bring me big strapping athletes and I''ll teach them to kick a football". Talented, average sized players need not apply.

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Mantra started by Nigel Worthington bring me bigstrapping athletes and I''ll teach them to kick a football". Talented, average sized players need not apply.

Another reason why the Academy should have a new manager and start fresh at the moment the Academy is not working. I am a firm believer that boys need talent and then they should be coached to a higher level.

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To be fair to the large strapping lads approach even Ajax used a system called spits or sprints ie speed, power, intelligence and technique.If indeed our youth system was run on that ground would we not have a line of skill-less drogbas I have not seen any acadamy lads that where either mega paced or physical monsters.Infact thinking about it oniel, eadie, ade akinbye (sorry for spelling) looked fast/powerful from the off.At our level we should be creating a few players that we can sell to the lower divisions, with the odd first teamer and every few years a star, so from my persepctive its just not doing a good enough job

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[quote user="Yellowbeagle"]

[quote user="birdman"]I think you will find that when they reach 18 they start to get trained by Martin, that''s when promising youngsters start to take a step back[/quote]

Both Ryan Jarvis and Ian Henderson were involved in the first team at 18 years old and would have been training with the first team for long periods. Doesnt Ricky Martin run the Under 18''s?,  I may be wrong of course I assumed that once they started getting to 19-20 they would be part of the first team squad or let go, and I''m not saying he doesnt have a role in their development after they reach 18 but there has been problem''s in the past when they pass over to the first team as alot of these kids look as good as the other premier league academy players and then seem to lose their way completely.

[/quote]You''ll find in the hucks interview he gives his opinon on this and it''s not ricky martins fault it''s because there''s a gap between acadamy and first team squad that needs to be bridged

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[quote user="SNAP"]As someone with experience of the way the Academy people think I can tell you many of the problems are caused by those above Academy level and speads to those below Academy at Player Development Centre level. All they are interested in is "big, strong athletes". OK, maybe at senior level to clog your way out of League 2 but is this the attitude we want at 12 and 13 years olds? How many people would continue wanting to invest in The Academy if they knew that this was the attitude? They are many lads who are now 14, 15 and 16 who have been rejected by the Colney Machine and are now being accpeted by clubs such as Peterborough, Ipswich, Colchester and even Cambridge while Colney continues chanting the mantra started by Nigel Worthington - "bring me big strapping athletes and I''ll teach them to kick a football". Talented, average sized players need not apply.[/quote]

I can''t for the life of me believe the club are stupid enough to live by the mantra ""bring me big strapping athletes and I''ll teach them to kick a football" when it comes to deloping young players. Darel Russell is a classic example of an athlete first footballer second and it shows. He''s crap. More than that, he wouldn''t have got anywhere near Burnley''s team which were superb today in the playoff final. In fact, if we continue down the stupid route of taking athletes over technique and talent, then we''ll continue to miss out on the likes of Robbie Blake (continuing the Burnley theme after seeing them this afternoon) who isn''t an athlete by any means, but technically is outstanding at Championship level (the level we need players to progress too). And besides, I believe you can''t teach athletes to play at a very high level. Talent and technique are deloped by youngsters over many many years. You can''t just take a big strapping 16 year old and turn them into a high class player. It just doesn''t happen very often.

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I don''t think the gap would be as big if the scholars had an X pro training them for two years.

Hopefully Hucks will return to the club and dedicate some time to help the younger players. Perhaps he could be the Pro to run the Academy when he retires?

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[quote user="birdman"]Ricky Martin has been quoted as saying that many of the Academy players need to go on loan to league 2 clubs, it just shows how stupid the man is, there are no players in the Academy that clubs would want on loan. here are a few of his big mistakes, Damion Lathrope, who Martin and Roeder kept ranting on about a player known to them as Damo, he then struggled to even get in to the Academy team. Kris Renton known as the Big Man to Ricky Martin (hopefully we are not going to mention his broken leg a year an a half ago) went to Kings Lynn and as many Lynn fans will tell you he was slow and Cr@p. When oh when will people see that if the club needs rebuilding the Academy needs to be the place to start and the if your face fits culture needs to be replaced by if your a good footballer you might make it. One of the many x pro''s at the club should be put in charge of the Academy, what other big company can you name with an amateur in charge.[/quote]

FFS lay off Ricky Martin. He is the only person employed at the club with an ounce of sense. The man knows what he''s talking about unfortunatley it''s the crap around him that doesn''t.

Ricky will eventually ''do a Boothroyd'' and leave to be successful.

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I could be wrong.... but i think if i am right the original poster has a chip on their shoulder regarding the release of Nick Davey this year. I.e a bit of a bias attitude when looking at this topic. Sorry but this has been done to death, at the time Hayes was nowhere near good enough to play in the team so was released... he has beefed up and played in the lower leagues and since developed. there is no real exact science to bringing through youngsters... however now i think we are starting to use the academy more effectively. Hucks is right about there needing a middle period between first team footy and youth.

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Oh no not the old chip on the shoulder, name one player who has made it to the first team who has held down a regular place after being trained by Martin. Yes I have had an opinion on some of the boys being released and one of those was Nick Davey, what more could the boy do but end up as the top scorer in the Academy, but Mr. Martin had already made his mind up that his great idea of turning Danny Kelly from a good center back in to a striker, not going to happen in a million years. If you ask me Chirp you are one of those people that accept second best and Mr. Martin is not the best man for the job. In my line of work you produce results or you know where the door is. Why do people attack Gunn but are more than happy for the Academy not to produce one player that can hold down a regular place? It''s time to want the best in every position in the club from the bottom up instead of ploughing along the same line and failing again.

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I can''t claim any expertise on this as I never go to youth team games but logically I the following seems to me to be the case:1. We have not produced many players in recent years so something has been wrong.2. It might have been resolved by now but it has yet to become apparent - i.e. the problems have been sorted and that players will come through soon.3. The problems have not been sorted.If we assume 3 and make changes when the situation is 2, we will undermine any good reforms that have taken place. If we assume 2 and do nothing, the weaknesses will persist.I understood that we were looking much better this year, which suggests that 2 is more likely but I don’t really know. Is the apparent improvement real?

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No, the Academy had a very false look about it this year as there was no reserve league so the young pro''s played in many of the Academy U18 games.

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Not defending Renton''s actual ability, however breaking a leg during your teenage years can have a massive effect on your pace.  I''ve got a couple of mates who could leave me for dust before breaking their legs at a young age, afterwards they could barely keep up even the slowest members of the team we played for (i.e. Me... :-)  ).

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When he broke his leg he asked the doctor if he would have pace and the doctor said yes, Renton replied great cos I didn''t have any before...and he was telling the truth

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A lot less quality has been produced by Norwich since the 90 minute rule was brought in where players are allowed to be picked from at young ages in a bid to safeguard their education.

The big city clubs Arsenal, Man U, Chelsea, Liverpool, Villa (in big suburbs) have a massive advantage over clubs like Norwich now. 

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If you think like that there is no point in having an Academy, we might as well scrap it and pick up the scraps thrown away by the big clubs.

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Birdman i don''t accept second best... however on the situation of the board and gunn... i am a realist. We were never going to get another manager so why bother ''chirping'' on about getting someone else in... Also i don''t think we can do much with the board until someone actually comes in wanting to take us over... that aside... Davey is indeed the top goalscorer... however he doesn''t offer us anything different to what we have upfront already... shame for the lad as he''s obviously done wellricky martin has come in and slowly started getting players though... At the end of the day, he''ll provide the players, it is the managers job to decide who signs pro. he has only been the academy manager since 2004 and the yth coach since 07'' - At this age it is hard to know who''ll makke it and who won''t. Currently though you look at the youth team and it looks a lot better than it did a few seasons back... And what good timing tooo... now more than ever we need new blood. I don''t know how you can be having a go at the youth team at the moment if i am honest... As they say, the table doesn''t lie... the academy team finished 2nd, diid well in the cup and have a number of young internationals...  If you want Norwich''s biggest crime of late (in the YTS) it''s letting Byrne go to Hibs... Clearly got loads of potential... would have no doubt been in the first team here now. Thing is... I come on here and it must be 90% of posts are having a moan about everything and anything... I think however starting on the academy boss if pretty poor form though...

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[quote user="norfolkchance1"]

A lot less quality has been produced by Norwich since the 90 minute rule was brought in where players are allowed to be picked from at young ages in a bid to safeguard their education.

The big city clubs Arsenal, Man U, Chelsea, Liverpool, Villa (in big suburbs) have a massive advantage over clubs like Norwich now. 

[/quote]

There is no reason Norwich cannot produce quality youngsters regardless of any 90 minute rule. Get a young lad, aged around 9, have him play football for (at least) 2 hours every day, with a 60 minute 11-a side match at the weekend, for a couple of years, and they should begin to learn the basics. Up the length of the match as they get older, keep them playing at least 2 hours every day, and by the time they''re 16, as long as they have played against good opposition as they''ve gotten older, they should be approaching a high standard technique wise for their age group with a good understanding of their preferred position, with a strong ability to read the game and other players. Yes, some players will be blessed physically more so than others, but technical excellence must come first in full back, midfield and attacking positions (I accept that for centre backs physical strength is a must to be any good). The youngsters with a strong winning determined mentality should be easily spotted and nurtured. These are the boys who will become winners as they become men.

For me, technical excellence always trumps athleticism. Put them together with mental strength though and you have a world class player. Players with all three attributes are very rare though. I''d just be happy with Norwich producing technically excellent players year in year out with a strong winning mentality, who can play one touch football and have a touch of flair about them. It should be do-able. That we apparently don''t just shows how poor our academy appears to have been managed. Mismanagement at Norwich has been off the scale for far too long.

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Please stop harping on about second place and a great cup run, here are some facts from someone who has been watching the youth team for many years, we had 5 young pro''s playing for us this year, I have never seen this before, the teams we have played had 16/17 year olds in them, so we should be beating them if our young pro''s have the potential to be playing for the first team. second the cup run we played two teams who don''t even have an Academy, played well against Everton and then got mauled by Man City but managed to walk away only losing 1 - 0, the most one sided 1-0 I have ever seen. If a football manager was in a job for 4 years and produced nothing he would be shown the door, why should an Academy manager be any different and why is it poor form? The man is not bullet proof

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sorry but a lot of the teams we played against also have players who are signed up on pro contracts. either that or get to play more reserve football than our lot did.It''s something you could argue about non stop (seeing as this is the 5th or 6th post on this subject you''ve started clearly you can and will!) but i disagree with you... sorry... one of those things in life, you have your opinion and others will think otherwise... I think in the next two years we will start to see a few decent players doing well coming out of the youth set up... that''s my opinion... time will tell if i am right or wrong...I for one will look on with great interest to see who N. Davey goes to next season... Maybe he''ll move to a big club and prove to be the one that got away? Or maybe he''ll be playing for Norwich United...

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Your right, he will more than likely be playing for a lower league side along with 99.5% of the other boys in the Academy. I would say that the only two that will make a big impact will be the goalkeepers, Most of the teams this year had first and second scholars in them, if there is an improvement in the Academy we will see next year if we are back in the reserves league and the academy plays scholars and not yound pro''s, this season was a farce. Roeder pulled us out of the reserves so the young pro''s played for the Academy team, that meant that some first year scholars sat on the bench most of the season (a year wasted). the boys that get released have a very small chance as other clubs have invested in their own boys and that''s why most of them do not get a second chance.

As you want to talk about Nick the good news for Nick is that some lower league coach who knows very little about football called Glenn Hoddle has shown an interest and Nick has made it to the final trials in Spain from 1000''s of applicants to join his Academy but perhaps Mr. Martin is a better coach and has more experience and can spot a player.

Your also right that I have replied several times on this subject as I am passionate about the young players and I have witnessed some very poor decisions this season.

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birdman, agree with you on most things Martin, it makes you worry when you see the Scouts from the academy only recommending the tall fast players. My nephew was at a five a side tournament over the weekend and  there are some very talented players, but as they were not over six foot with a size fourteen shoe they would be overlooked.Incidently, saw the name of Manny Richardson on another thread and was wondering what has happened?

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I hope Nicky does really well honestly i do... It''s always a shame when a player isn''t taken on... He seems pretty similar to Curo cody and Martin though so maybe it was just a case of being too similar... Whereas, although he hasn''t done as well in your eyes... perhaps Kelly offers something different. (de him a decent forward in the making or not)I think... Manny has another year to run on his youth deal? Birdman will prob know for sure. Paul NCFC, Write to all the lower league clubs about your nephew... I don''t know where you live but a lot of the london clubs will take a look at him for sure... I know that Barnet and Millwall especially will take a look. I would write to Norwich as well... they have nothing to lose in taking another look at his team.My nephew is at Chelsea (under 11''s) I don''t think he will make it there (even at that age they have kids from other countries) but he is going to be around 6 ''5'' when he stops growing... thing is he''s a bean pole and you need everything these days to be the all round modern player. - Is that right? I don''t think so, but it is the way a lot of youth teams are thinking at the moment. From the very little experience i had of doing football agent work i will say this... they can have all the attributes... but if they don''t want it enough they''ll get nowhere... If your nephew really really wants it, and he has a fair amount of skill he''ll have a chance. Hopefully some of these youth players at NC have that drive.

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Manny Richardson disappeared from the youth team at the start of the season, the only information I could find out is there was a problem with his visa and work permit. Good luck to your son, I think it depends which position your son plays in as far as height goes.

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Not saying by any stretch of the imagination that my Nephew would be good enough but the general consensus of opinion from people connected with youth football around Norfolk is that CW and fellow scouts are blinkered in the way they assess the youngsters at the moment, with the emphasis on size.Shame about Manny Richardson, he reminded me of Barrington Belgrave with a first touch.

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