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colneycanary

When will Delia and Michaell ever learn........

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You have to go with experience! It doesn''t matter that Gunn is a legend. It''s been proved time and time again, for success you need an experienced manager in charge! For people to make excuses saying the players he had were crap is just a pathetic lame excuse.

Take what happened in the premiership as an example. Spurs were crap at the start of the season. Couldn''t get a win to save their lives. They give Ramos the boot get in Harry Rednapp and with the same players climb to mid table safety. When Harry left Portsmouth, Tony Adams look over his first job in a Managerial role and they went rapidly down hill and down the table until he was given the boot. The same happened at Blackburn with Ince (a step to far) and Newcastle, were they appointted a manager with their hearts and not their brains.

If we had kept Roeder i beleive we wouldn''t of gone down. We stood a far better chance of surviving than putting a complete inexperienced person in charge. Delia and Michael have made cock up after cock up and will never learn this simple rule: YOU HAVE TO GO WITH EXPERIENCE!

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No they will not , and the hardest bit to take about Gunn getting the job was it came shortly after they had told us they had learnt from their mistakes and things were going to change. Gunn is probably the biggest mistake they have ever made , hopes of staying up died the day he was given the job and any hopes of promotion next season died the day they reappointed him.

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[quote user="colneycanary"]You have to go with experience! It doesn''t matter that Gunn is a legend. It''s been proved time and time again, for success you need an experienced manager in charge! For people to make excuses saying the players he had were crap is just a pathetic lame excuse. Take what happened in the premiership as an example. Spurs were crap at the start of the season. Couldn''t get a win to save their lives. They give Ramos the boot get in Harry Rednapp and with the same players climb to mid table safety. When Harry left Portsmouth, Tony Adams look over his first job in a Managerial role and they went rapidly down hill and down the table until he was given the boot. The same happened at Blackburn with Ince (a step to far) and Newcastle, were they appointted a manager with their hearts and not their brains. If we had kept Roeder i beleive we wouldn''t of gone down. We stood a far better chance of surviving than putting a complete inexperienced person in charge. Delia and Michael have made cock up after cock up and will never learn this simple rule: YOU HAVE TO GO WITH EXPERIENCE![/quote]

We went with experience in Roeder, and put quite simply, he caused unrest amongst the players apparently and upset the fans more than once.

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the board should have done thier homework before taking roeder on, any burnley newcastle and west ham fan would have told you the man is not liked and a failure and the grief he caused , even i knew that and i was very concerned .

 

it wouldnt have been that hard to work out what the outcome would be , his cv hardly paints a picture of success .

burnley were in a very similar situation to us and just managed to stay in the championship .

bringing in a load of loan players and flogging off your players on the cheap showed what a idiot roeder was .

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[quote user="singing canary"]

the board should have done thier homework before taking roeder on, any burnley newcastle and west ham fan would have told you the man is not liked and a failure and the grief he caused , even i knew that and i was very concerned .

 

it wouldnt have been that hard to work out what the outcome would be , his cv hardly paints a picture of success .

burnley were in a very similar situation to us and just managed to stay in the championship .

bringing in a load of loan players and flogging off your players on the cheap showed what a idiot roeder was .

[/quote]

Agreed, at the time of his appointment I did say that my Wet Sham supporting mate said Roeder would see us almost relegated in his 2nd season, and I strongly believe that if he had of remained we would have gone down anyhow.

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Roeder may have been an experienced manager but he was still the biggest mistake this board have ever made. Had they looked at this experience the ywould have seen nothing but failure. Beyond the first season he has no record of any sucess.The worst thing about Roeder was he destroyed the infrastucture at the club before he went. Totally removing all the backroom staff and many others who had been there a long while just to bring in his own yes men who turned out to be as incompetent as him or as competent as he would allow has ben a major factor in where we are.

The appointment of Roeder who appeared to be able to do what he wanted well beyond what I would expect from a manager was a major failing of this board and down to the lack of any footballing knowledge on the board.

The appointment of Gunn both last season and now is another board failing, again down to their total lack of football knowledge.

I disagree totally with all the chldish and unjustified attacks on the majority shareholders, we would be in a very poor way without them. We should accept there is no big money takeover going to happen. Our best hope is that Foulger comes up with some investment to supplement the continued support from the existing shareholders. We should also hope that either a CEO or new shareholder with some football knowledge soon join the board.

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I''m not sure Roeder was their biggest mistake.

I think maybe keeping hold of Worthington way too long when everyone( but the board) could see he had lost the players and then giving the job to Grant was just as big a mistake.

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It just shows how much they care for the fans and the club, Not a bit interested in giveing back the pride to the many thousands of fans, they blame the big money men for our Demise, when the answer is in the mirrow in the office,

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[quote user="pete_norw"]It just shows how much they care for the fans and the club, Not a bit interested in giveing back the pride to the many thousands of fans, they blame the big money men for our Demise, when the answer is in the mirrow in the office,[/quote] Correct , Smith and Jones are responsible for this clubs demise more so than money , plenty of clubs with less than us in the Championship .All we can hope is that they see sense and sod off before they take us any lower , after the appointment of Gunn that does not look on the cards though.

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I think the word "experience" is too liberally used. IMO when selecting a good manager, judging him by "experience" is weak and flawed in itself. There are far more important attributes to consider i think. For every tony adams i''m sure there''s a darren ferguson somewhere in the same way there''s a peter grant. Experience doesn''t ensure a successful manager by any stretch of the imagnation and we should stop kidding ourselves that it would. Eh Glenn?

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They make important decisions on the rebound with a series of knee jerk appointments.

Grant ... no experiece and a failure.

Roeder ... big on experience but upset the fans and seemed detached from the community club image they aspire to.

Gunn ... fans favourite and very much a community figure.

They never see the bigger picture.

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[quote user="whoareyou"]

I''m not sure Roeder was their biggest mistake.

I think maybe keeping hold of Worthington way too long when everyone( but the board) could see he had lost the players and then giving the job to Grant was just as big a mistake.

[/quote]

I can''t buy keeping Worthington as manager being a bigger mistake than appointing Grant, Roeder or Gunn. His crime was not keeping us in the Premier and then not taking us back at the first attempt. That was what the disappointment and anger was about. The biggest mistake was appointing Grant and then allowing him to replace Worthy''s Championship players with League One equivalents. Hucks even said it at the time yet people still won''t accept it. That was why we ended up going down the loan route to try and get some quality back. We couldn''t afford to buy it and the damage was already done. Worthington would never have got us relegated into League One. His worst finish was 9th and everyone wanted him sacked for it.

 

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Agree, Worthington paid for our premature departure from the Premiership and the fact that our expectations were much higher then.

He had played a big part in building up those expectations, but made some poor signings when we went down again.

I, like many others wanted his sacking at the time, believing that we were standing still, when the only way was up.

How wrong was that?

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You forget some of those signings he made though, nutty!

Jason Jarrett and Peter Thorne. Mathhieu Louis Jean and Carl Robinson. All absolute shite and a complete and utter waste of time and money.

The reason we went down hill then was Worthington''s crap signings!

It''s too easy to forget just how very poor we were then too!

And the only common denominator in all this??? DS and MWJ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I can''t believe that people bemoaning the appointment of Gunn and CO for next season are going on about the need for an experienced manager - That was why we got the managerial incompetant Roedernowhere!

 

I remain unconvinced about Gunn either way (will he be any good or not?) but I fully support reappointing him with Butterworth and Crook for next season cause we''ve had to much disruption at the club, a dstincty lack of continuity and the states the clubs currently in I''d say that it''d take one hell of a manager to turn us around. Gunn took over a poisoned chalice last season and I doubt that a lot of other supposedly experienced managers would of done much better if at all and if Roedernowhere would of stayed we''d of seen 1996 Chase out similar protests and total anarchy at the club as well as relegation!  

 

Hopefully Gunn can surprise us but I''d give him until December and if we''re still struggling then he''d have no complaint if he then has to go. Anyway I think Gunns a decent enough bloke who cares about the club enough that he''d know when the time was right for him to go not like the ''experienced'' Roeder who was never going to quit and was in his latter days just hanging on for the compensation!

 

As for the board well I''ll never be to harsh with them cause they have put their money and time into keeping the club going something which most of us wouldn''t be able to do or seemingly the few that could seem reluctant to do so. That said I think the board are now too long in the tooth, have been there to long now, have made too many mistakes and need replacing if the club are to move forward!

 

I commend messrs Doncaster and Mumby for doing the right thing and falling on their swords but remember that ultimately Delia and CO held the purse strings then and still do now!

 

I take some optimism in the fact that in League 1 and even the Championship that a club can do well and get promoted without big finance if  the club has good football management - Fingers crossed for Gunny and CO!

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[quote user="whoareyou"]

You forget some of those signings he made though, nutty!

Jason Jarrett and Peter Thorne. Mathhieu Louis Jean and Carl Robinson. All absolute shite and a complete and utter waste of time and money.

The reason we went down hill then was Worthington''s crap signings!

It''s too easy to forget just how very poor we were then too!

And the only common denominator in all this??? DS and MWJ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[/quote]

I remember them all my friend. Worthy made mistakes, all managers do, but the good far outweigh the bad. He recognised the mistake with Jarrett and put it right with Etuhu who was as good a signing as Jarrett was poor. Robinson was not as bad as many make out but as with all the signings that season became a scapegoat. The midfield Grant inherited from Worthy was Croft, Safri, Etuhu, Huckerby, Hughes and Robinson. All Worthy signings. Grant''s midfield legacy to Roeder was Chadwick, Fotheringham, Lappin, Russell and Brellier. And he''d managed to keep Hucks and Croft. So Roeder probably had to do down the loan route however he did bring in quality leaving Clingan Hoolahan, Pattison and Bell in his will to Gunn. If Clingan and Hoolahan leave this summer where does that leave us?

 

 

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I think you can be fairly certain that Clingan and Hoolihan will leave in the summer. Which leaves us with no one of any quality at all and up sh*t creek with no paddle.

Having said that look at what Burnley have achieved...so it is possible to pull some rabbits out of the hat...it''s just whether we have anyone capable of doing that at managment level.

 

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The biggest mistake was Grant. His signings were nearly all poor and crippled the club financially. Thats what makes the Gunn appointment so ridiculous, the board have tried this before and its failed. Why they didn''t appoint a fairly experienced manager like Gannon or Tilson etc is beyond me. At least if it didn''t work out with either of those two they would not get as much of the blame because these managers had a decent track record.If next season begins badly they will be under huge amounts of pressure from the fans for repeating their previous mistakes.

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I''m sorry, but assuming Gunn will be the same as Grant just because of "experience" is a little short sighted to say the least.Truth is, none of us really know how capable Gunn and co. are going to be, its the fear of the unknown and that it may blow up in our faces again thats worrying. But to just tar any inexperienced manager with the Grant brush is a little silly i feel.Jury is out for me, but back him and who knows. There are no dead certs in this game thats for sure.

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I don''t think you can criticise Worthy for Thorne and MLJ - unless he had a crystal ball he wasn''t to know that they would be on a permanent sick note. Plus Peter Thorne seems to have done OK since he left.

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I think we saw last season just how capable Gunn is and thats whats worrying everybody . He couldnt get the team motivated in a relegation battle , every interview he did he didnt once sound as if he had a clue .I would swap him for Grant or Roeder right now because i think hes worse than both of them . He is Delias yes man and the man the fans wont demonstrate against apart from that god knows why he was given the job.

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I don''t really agree with the premise behind this.They have appointed1. Rioch - experienced - didn''t work out2. Hamilton - experienced - disaster.3. Worthington - some experience, not that much, successful periods4. Grant - inexperienced - disaster5. Roeder - experienced - didn''t work out/ disaster depending upon your point of view.6. Gunn - inexperienced - we won''t really know until he has had a chance to shape a team.I think it is rather more complex than the simple need for experience. Clearly our managers have not been successful, but it doesn''t seem to me that there is a strong correlation between their success and their experience.

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[quote user="colneycanary"] YOU HAVE TO GO WITH EXPERIENCE![/quote]Who is available that we could afford and would come?When Roeder got the job the boards first choice was Calderwood but he didn''t want to know.

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Exactly Badger. The correlation is there with the board i feel.Whats worse is, us fans are doing exactly what the board want by enlarge. People are directing discontent at "uncle fester" (pathetic to resort to that BTW) instead of the board. They are slowly planning to slip off the hook. Masterstroke on their part? Or shortsightedness on ours?

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[quote user="Badger"]3. Worthington - some experience, not that much, successful periods4. Grant - inexperienced - disaster5. Roeder - experienced - didn''t work out/ disaster depending upon your point of view.6. Gunn - inexperienced - we won''t really know until he has had a chance to shape a team.[/quote]Well, let''s see about that.Grant did better with the team he inherited from Worthy than Worthy was doing with them.Roeder did better with the team he inherited from Grant than Grant was doing with them.Gunn... oh, that''s right.  He had 19 games with the team he inherited from Roeder, and he got us relegated.

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[quote user="Lupo Loop"]Why they didn''t appoint a fairly experienced manager like Gannon or Tilson etc is beyond me. At least if it didn''t work out with either of those two they would not get as much of the blame because these managers had a decent track record.[/quote]Tilson was approached when it went to grant but wouldn''t even talk.If you seriously want them to appoint managers based on the criteria of how little blame will be apportioned to them if it goes wrong then you''re deluded. This isn''t New labour.......

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[quote user="whoareyou?"]

You forget some of those signings he made though, nutty!

Jason Jarrett and Peter Thorne. Mathhieu Louis Jean and Carl Robinson. All absolute shite and a complete and utter waste of time and money.

The reason we went down hill then was Worthington''s crap signings!

It''s too easy to forget just how very poor we were then too!

And the only common denominator in all this??? DS and MWJ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[/quoteClueless

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[quote user="Mister Chops"]Well, let''s see about that.Grant did better with the team he inherited from Worthy than Worthy was doing with them.Roeder did better with the team he inherited from Grant than Grant was doing with them.Gunn... oh, that''s right.  He had 19 games with the team he inherited from Roeder, and he got us relegated.[/quote]So is that an argument for or against experience?

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DGC - you may be right in relation to some supporters, but not all.

The board are ENTIRELY culpable, to blame, however you want to put it.

They make the appointments, they determine the budget, they secure investment (or not), they sanction everything the manager does re transfers in and out. They are in charge and therefore they are responsible.

I don''t blame Gunn at all for taking on the job. I think he is ill advised to take on a job he''s had next to no training for, but he loves the club and wanted to do his best to help. IF he wishes to be a manager for the rest of his career he would have done better to move away and take on a lower league club for three years or so, before coming back here or finding out it was not for him.

The board appointed him for one reason only, to save their own skins. All this talk of community club is to get the fans back on side, to ensure they have enough money coming in to continue paying the debt repayments. To buy a bit of time while Keith Harris searches for a mythical person willing to pay a fortune for a club whose status declines every season, but it still for sale at a very high price.

Slip off the hook? Let''s hope not, but I agree it will be a tough and long battle before everyone sees the light.

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