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Tangible Fixed Assets anyone?

The land behind the Jarrold stand.........

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Tangible Fixed Assets anyone?

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Joined on 03/08/2005
Posts 2,574

Re: Nearly £10m more to run NCFC Plc compared to Preston North End

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 T wrote:

If the club had managed to sell the land at the peak then there was a chance that could have raised the money to fund a promotion bid

Really?

First deduct £2.5m from the receipts for repayment of the bank loan.

Then they have submitted a document to the City Council Planning dept regarding a multi storey car park and as Buckethead has suggested that would cost a fair bit. Can''t  remember the exact figure but £5m. seems to ring a bell. Of course the alternative is to buy the land next door for car parking that will free up the ex LSE and City Council  land behind the Jarrold stand for the sale you are suggesting. Remember somebody was hinting last summer / start of the season about other land being looked at.

Then you have to consider demolition costs (if its the LSE buildings towards the railway line) and asphalting the area ready for a car park

Even if the ex LSE, ex City Council land could be sold for £10m that would hardly leave anything to put towards the playing squad!

 -----------------------------------------------

 

 

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translation - norwich are fucked because delia decided to become a property speculator. ROFLMAO!!!

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LOL LOL LOL LOL....... "it would cost £5m to submit a document to the city planning department".

Never read anything so stupid.

Somebody give me the floor area of the site, and how many floors the car park is likely to have, and I will give you an estimated price for building the car park.

 

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[quote user="ryan85k"]

LOL LOL LOL LOL....... "it would cost £5m to submit a document to the city planning department".

Never read anything so stupid.

Somebody give me the floor area of the site, and how many floors the car park is likely to have, and I will give you an estimated price for building the car park.

 

[/quote]

* Quote might not be entirely accurate.

It just read funny

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Deducting the car park is a very basic school boy error in your analysis for reasons previouly explained.

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Presumably they will only build it if it is cost effective to do so - i.e. it generates revenue for the club on non-match days and frees up other land for development. They can go back in with a re-plan if need be. Getting planning permission on this land was a decent strategy at the time and the club has been somewhat unfortunate with the timing of the economic downturn. It may however still prove a very valuable asset in the future in the same way that Chase''s much derided flour mill purchase actually proved something of a god-send several years later!

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[quote user="ryan85k"]

"it would cost £5m to submit a document to the city planning department".

[/quote]

''Then they have submitted a document to the City Council Planning dept regarding a multi storey car park and as Buckethead has suggested that would cost a fair bit. Can''t  remember the exact figure but £5m. seems to ring a bell.''

Its obvious to anyone with a brain that the £5m relates to the cost of building the  multistorey car park. That estimated cost doesnt surprise me given what I know about the estimated cost of another multi storey car park that is planned for another part of the city.

If you want to know the spec of the multistorey car park that NCFC had in mind try the Norwich City Council Planning Dept. This of course assumes you know where to look online for the document. If you work in the construction industry you will have no problem finding it, will you?

 

 

 

 

 

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Oh dear. still don''t get it?. Look up basic incremental investment analysis and then get back to us.

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[quote user="Jim Smith"]Presumably they will only build it if it is cost effective to do so - i.e. it generates revenue for the club on non-match days and frees up other land for development. They can go back in with a re-plan if need be. Getting planning permission on this land was a decent strategy at the time and the club has been somewhat unfortunate with the timing of the economic downturn. [/quote]

The problem is what to do with the car parking?  Build a multi storey car park or buy the land nearby (either will cost many millions), in order to free up the space for the land development when it eventually happens. Even if they somehow manage to sell the land for £10m sometime in the future, after all these other costs there will be little for the team and this would have been the case even without the financial crunch.

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Tangible - a) what''s new about the OP of this thread ?b) why can''t you explain yourself so that non-accountants can understand you ?

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[quote user="Tangible Fixed Assets anyone"]Big white elephant comes to mind............[/quote]Is THAT what they spent our money on?! [:P]

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[quote user="Tangible Fixed Assets anyone"][quote user="ryan85k"]

"it would cost £5m to submit a document to the city planning department".

[/quote]

''Then they have submitted a document to the City Council Planning dept regarding a multi storey car park and as Buckethead has suggested that would cost a fair bit. Can''t  remember the exact figure but £5m. seems to ring a bell.''

Its obvious to anyone with a brain that the £5m relates to the cost of building the  multistorey car park. That estimated cost doesnt surprise me given what I know about the estimated cost of another multi storey car park that is planned for another part of the city.

If you want to know the spec of the multistorey car park that NCFC had in mind try the Norwich City Council Planning Dept. This of course assumes you know where to look online for the document. If you work in the construction industry you will have no problem finding it, will you?

 

 

 

 

 

[/quote]

 

Look rudeboy, I acknowledged in the post immediately after that it was ''How it read''. 

I also offered to do a costing for a car park. I am a member of RICS. 

''Anybody with half a brain'' would encourage me do an estimate for a car park to potentially support their argument, based on SPONS building prices, instead of picking a stupid argument.

Now, would you like me to get my big expensive book out and check that price or not?

 

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[quote user="T"]Oh dear. still don''t get it?. Look up basic incremental investment analysis and then get back to us.[/quote]

Surely when talking about land, the only calculations required is a Residual Appraisal and a Monte Carlo risk analysis.

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I suggest you have a look at the masterplan TFA and more particularly where the bulk of the residential development is. As far as I can see this can be built without losing the current car park and there is no requirement for the multi story car park to be built in connection with it.

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[quote user="ryan85k"][quote user="Tangible Fixed Assets anyone"][quote user="ryan85k"]

"it would cost £5m to submit a document to the city planning department".

[/quote]

''Then they have submitted a document to the City Council Planning dept regarding a multi storey car park and as Buckethead has suggested that would cost a fair bit. Can''t  remember the exact figure but £5m. seems to ring a bell.''

Its obvious to anyone with a brain that the £5m relates to the cost of building the  multistorey car park. That estimated cost doesnt surprise me given what I know about the estimated cost of another multi storey car park that is planned for another part of the city.

If you want to know the spec of the multistorey car park that NCFC had in mind try the Norwich City Council Planning Dept. This of course assumes you know where to look online for the document. If you work in the construction industry you will have no problem finding it, will you?

 

 

 

 

 

[/quote]

 

Look rudeboy, I acknowledged in the post immediately after that it was ''How it read''. 

I also offered to do a costing for a car park. I am a member of RICS. 

''Anybody with half a brain'' would encourage me do an estimate for a car park to potentially support their argument, based on SPONS building prices, instead of picking a stupid argument.

Now, would you like me to get my big expensive book out and check that price or not?

 

[/quote]

 

Actually f*ck you, personally I couldnt give a monkeys about the car park. Take your bitter attitude somewhere else. I couldnt have made it much clearer that I misread the post, and my extensive use of the abbreviation ''Lol'' suggested that I was being light hearted.

The fact that I was willing to provide you with a semi credible assessment of the true building cost, with my own time, and you responded by being so rude just goes to show how f*cking ungrateful people are. 

If you think that I am going to search for plans, then load up my software which costs me thousands of pounds on license, and then use my building costs guide.... which also cost me a lot of money...... and then use my own time to determine the cost of building and approximate true value of the site.....  time which also costs me money...... just to help out your thread for the benefit of your conversation..... then you truly have something coming.

This was your discussion, I could have added something meaningful to it by doing a full development appraisal. Instead I am going to get on with doing a development appraisal for a real paying customer. And yes I do get paid to do it.

 

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[quote user="ryan85k"][quote user="Tangible Fixed Assets anyone"][quote user="ryan85k"]

"it would cost £5m to submit a document to the city planning department".

[/quote]

''Then they have submitted a document to the City Council Planning dept regarding a multi storey car park and as Buckethead has suggested that would cost a fair bit. Can''t  remember the exact figure but £5m. seems to ring a bell.''

Its obvious to anyone with a brain that the £5m relates to the cost of building the  multistorey car park. That estimated cost doesnt surprise me given what I know about the estimated cost of another multi storey car park that is planned for another part of the city.

If you want to know the spec of the multistorey car park that NCFC had in mind try the Norwich City Council Planning Dept. This of course assumes you know where to look online for the document. If you work in the construction industry you will have no problem finding it, will you?

 

[/quote]

 

Look rudeboy,

[/quote]

May I suggest you look in the mirror after all it was you who was rude to me first. Thus you DESERVED a rude response!

Furthermore I didn''t take your offer seriously given the rude context of your post.

Thank you for offering to make an estimate however  Buckethead went into some detail when the issue of the multistorey car park was raised. However I will try to re post the detail here in due course should you wish to comment upon it.

 

 

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[quote user="Jim Smith"]

I suggest you have a look at the masterplan TFA and more particularly where the bulk of the residential development is. As far as I can see this can be built without losing the current car park and there is no requirement for the multi story car park to be built in connection with it.

[/quote]

I have looked at the various documents relating to this land. The various flat blocks will take up the land between the test bed building and the river. Furthermore the plan also has houses around the multistorey car park on the piece of land just behind the Jarrold stand where vehicles currently park. So its a multistorey car park or another piece of land for the car parking.

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TFA,

Are you or anyone else (buckethead/Mr Carrow?) able to estimate what the overall net profit from all the peripheral land developments would have contributed at say:

1. Height of the property boom pre credit crunch

2. Now

3. Say 3 to 4 years time when the market picks up (assumption)

I assume that any future income should also take account of development costs that have yet to happen and the costs of interest on debts which are specifically related to these projects.

Sorry to lob you a curve ball, but if you area able to answer (which I fully appreciate might not be instantly) this it would help make your concern about this land more relavenet to the average fan who is struggling to undertstand why the team is being starved of funding. This should also highlight how much return the Board were expecting relative to the considerbale risk they have taken in playing in a market in which they have little experience.

 

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[quote user="ryan85k"][quote user="ryan85k"][quote user="Tangible Fixed Assets anyone"][quote user="ryan85k"]

"it would cost £5m to submit a document to the city planning department".

[/quote]

''Then they have submitted a document to the City Council Planning dept regarding a multi storey car park and as Buckethead has suggested that would cost a fair bit. Can''t  remember the exact figure but £5m. seems to ring a bell.''

Its obvious to anyone with a brain that the £5m relates to the cost of building the  multistorey car park. That estimated cost doesnt surprise me given what I know about the estimated cost of another multi storey car park that is planned for another part of the city.

If you want to know the spec of the multistorey car park that NCFC had in mind try the Norwich City Council Planning Dept. This of course assumes you know where to look online for the document. If you work in the construction industry you will have no problem finding it, will you?

 

 

 

 

 

[/quote]

 

Look rudeboy, I acknowledged in the post immediately after that it was ''How it read''. 

I also offered to do a costing for a car park. I am a member of RICS. 

''Anybody with half a brain'' would encourage me do an estimate for a car park to potentially support their argument, based on SPONS building prices, instead of picking a stupid argument.

Now, would you like me to get my big expensive book out and check that price or not?

 

[/quote]

 

Actually f*ck you, personally I couldnt give a monkeys about the car park. Take your bitter attitude somewhere else.

[/quote]

You really do need to look at the mirror! Thank you for showing your true colours. May I suggest you think about who was rude first? 

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[quote user="Tangible Fixed Assets anyone"][quote user="ryan85k"][quote user="Tangible Fixed Assets anyone"][quote user="ryan85k"]

"it would cost £5m to submit a document to the city planning department".

[/quote]

''Then they have submitted a document to the City Council Planning dept regarding a multi storey car park and as Buckethead has suggested that would cost a fair bit. Can''t  remember the exact figure but £5m. seems to ring a bell.''

Its obvious to anyone with a brain that the £5m relates to the cost of building the  multistorey car park. That estimated cost doesnt surprise me given what I know about the estimated cost of another multi storey car park that is planned for another part of the city.

If you want to know the spec of the multistorey car park that NCFC had in mind try the Norwich City Council Planning Dept. This of course assumes you know where to look online for the document. If you work in the construction industry you will have no problem finding it, will you?

 

[/quote]

 

Look rudeboy,

[/quote]

May I suggest you look in the mirror after all it was you who was rude to me first. Thus you DESERVED a rude response!

Furthermore I didn''t take your offer seriously given the rude context of your post.

Thank you for offering to make an estimate however  Buckethead went into some detail when the issue of the multistorey car park was raised. However I will try to re post the detail here in due course should you wish to comment upon it.

[/quote]

And did you read my post 1 minute later? which acknowledged that I misquoted and said that it ''read funny''.  I read it wrong, and yes my offer was serious.

Anyway, moving on..... I would be happy to comment on Bucketheads analysis.

When dealing with land acquisition, it really is only necessary to determine the cost of building, the expected revenues, and acquisition costs that do not relate to the actual land purchase.

I can then tell you the residual value of the land. That is, the price that the land is effectively worth to a developer that wants to build a multi storey car park on it.  I can then calculate the approximate developers profit of such an activity, based on an acquisition cost at its determined value and then the Internal Rate of Return, which is an indicator of the quality of an investment.After working out the TRUE value of the land (which could be more or less than paid) I will perform the same calculations based on the actual acquisition costs of the land.

I am open minded as to the result. The investment could show to be a worthwhile one, or a bad one.

 

 

 

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[quote user="Desert Fox"]

TFA,

Are you or anyone else (buckethead/Mr Carrow?) able to estimate what the overall net profit from all the peripheral land developments would have contributed at say:

1. Height of the property boom pre credit crunch

2. Now

3. Say 3 to 4 years time when the market picks up (assumption)

I assume that any future income should also take account of development costs that have yet to happen and the costs of interest on debts which are specifically related to these projects.

Sorry to lob you a curve ball, but if you area able to answer (which I fully appreciate might not be instantly) this it would help make your concern about this land more relavenet to the average fan who is struggling to undertstand why the team is being starved of funding. This should also highlight how much return the Board were expecting relative to the considerbale risk they have taken in playing in a market in which they have little experience.

 

[/quote]

Ha ha, to do that accurately would take a hell of a lot of time and effort. It wouldnt even be possible to pick a ball park figure. Without knowing the cost of the land, the actual building costs, the actual developers profit....... it would be pretty much impossible without unlimited access to the offices of many surveyors.

Nobody on here could do this accurately or would be willing to, and I would challenge any attempt. You are basically asking for somebody to do what Surveyors and Architects would have and will be paid tens and hundreds of thousands of pounds to do.

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[quote user="Desert Fox"]

TFA,

Are you or anyone else (buckethead/Mr Carrow?) able to estimate what the overall net profit from all the peripheral land developments would have contributed at say:

1. Height of the property boom pre credit crunch

[/quote]

Even if they had sold it for £10m. (probably worth £4m now if you could find a buyer) there are the following to be considered:

£2.5m. to be repaid to the bank regarding the related loan

£5m.    estimate for a multistorey car park or nearby land

?          demolition costs if buildings are on the nearby land

?          asphalting costs, so the nearby land could be used for a car park

 

If a multistorey car park is built then there are also section 106 Planning obligations.

So theres not much left for the squad, is there?

 

 

 

 

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Ryan,

No a reasonable estimate would be suffice. I believe that many of the factors that you have highlighted are either known or can be reasonably estimated. I was only looking for an answer to the nearest million and I cant see what the harm is in exploring this. I know many propoerty developers that can make this mental claculation within minutes of seeing a site or its plans.

The point that I am trying to tease out is what could the Board have reasonably expected to have earned from thsi development as opposed to its value know. This will then enable us to quantifiy the extent of the risk that has been taken (i.e between the upside and downside valautions) and to assess whether this risk was worth taking.

My concern is that this is not simply a case of borrowing specific funds to pursuse this at the margin and that this is now eating into the playing budget rather than contributing towards it. Lets see whether TFA or others (it is an open offer - including you) are prepared to have a punt?

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TFA,

Sorry to be a pain, but is there anyway you could present the information you have shared above into a simple table showing the bottom line prfoit or loss which could have been expected at the top of the market and now?

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[quote user="Tangible Fixed Assets anyone"][quote user="Desert Fox"]

TFA,

Are you or anyone else (buckethead/Mr Carrow?) able to estimate what the overall net profit from all the peripheral land developments would have contributed at say:

1. Height of the property boom pre credit crunch

[/quote]

Even if they had sold it for £10m. (probably worth £4m now if you could find a buyer) there are the following to be considered:

£2.5m. to be repaid to the bank regarding the related loan

£5m.    estimate for a multistorey car park or nearby land

?          demolition costs if buildings are on the nearby land

?          asphalting costs, so the nearby land could be used for a car park

 

If a multistorey car park is built then there are also section 106 Planning obligations.

So theres not much left for the squad, is there?

[/quote]

Surely the club werent proposing to build the car park and then sell it? surely they were proposing to get planning permission for the car park, and sell the land with the planning permission attached? something that would actually increase the value of the land?

If they were planning to build themselves, were they definetely planning to sell it? if they were planning to operate the car park themselves, then the value of the land becomes irrelevant, instead the total costs of finance (e.g. loan repayment including interest) and operation against revenue is the only relevant figures. Thus determining whether the car park could be operated at a profit. Please give me an overview of the proposals, clarifying what is speculation and what is factual, and I will give you my own two pence.

If the club are building the car park themselves, then how do they intend to finance the building costs? You make note of the costs of land acquisition, but the not the costs of financing for building.  As for demolition, you may note that the developer of the South stand actually demolished it for free. Asphalting costs are truly minimal by the way.

On a side note, if they ARE proposing to develop the land themselves, they have commited one serious own goal. And that is to not enter into an agreement with the seller of the land to pay for the site upon project completion, which is common practice these days.

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The costs to 31st May 2008 were approx £6.4m and we have this seasons interest bill on the related loan and probably another arrangement fee to add to the costs to date. However the Profit & Loss related to the land is separate from the use of the cash from a sale even if made at £10m (hopefully sometime in the future).

The £6.4m includes: £2.75m ex LSE land, £0.9m ex Norwich City Council land, £0.55m re the land Chase purchased, £1.2m re Spine Rd etc and £1m re interest to the 31st May 2008.

The land Chase purchased was for £160k per year for five and half years and the club was collecting £50k per year from Carrow Commercials and match day car parking fees. The payments were made on an interest free basis.

 

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[quote user="Desert Fox"]

Ryan,

No a reasonable estimate would be suffice. I believe that many of the factors that you have highlighted are either known or can be reasonably estimated. I was only looking for an answer to the nearest million and I cant see what the harm is in exploring this. I know many propoerty developers that can make this mental claculation within minutes of seeing a site or its plans.

The point that I am trying to tease out is what could the Board have reasonably expected to have earned from thsi development as opposed to its value know. This will then enable us to quantifiy the extent of the risk that has been taken (i.e between the upside and downside valautions) and to assess whether this risk was worth taking.

My concern is that this is not simply a case of borrowing specific funds to pursuse this at the margin and that this is now eating into the playing budget rather than contributing towards it. Lets see whether TFA or others (it is an open offer - including you) are prepared to have a punt?

[/quote]

Any property developer that can make that calculation within minutes of looking at some plans is at serious risk of failure, without referring to the building prices index and without knowing how to perform a residual appraisal.

I know many people that would calculate this using faux methods and to present a specific argument, but as a qualified surveyor who does calculations for a living, I would never resort to guestimating anything.

A 1% change in a variable such as interest rate can change a developments profit level from substantial to loss making, so anybody that feels they can present any figure on this board without using SPONS manuals for each and every relevant year, and without the use of appraisal software such as Circle. Or indeed without at least knowing how Monte Carlo sensitivity analysis works or knows how to perform a paper based Darlow valuation...... has absolutely no credibility at all. Even then a figure is still estimated.

Your friends might be able to give you an approximate cost of a side extension or two 120 m2 terraced houses, but unless there is another chartered surveyor on here, no figure whatsoever can be ascertained relating to your question.

I am willing to spend my time analysing the car park, but that alone will take me a good few hours minimum. Nobody on here can sit down with a calculator and give you a serious figure. Please take that from a professional, else you can be influenced by anybody.

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