Players to get us out of the rut?

[Superflash 0]

Right, we''ve all seen threads about the players of the last few years who have not been good enough to wear our beloved colours. We''ve seen various Gunny threads about the future of his managerial tenure and we''ve seen various threads about official statements and threads about us possibly going down again. I want to try and put a slightly more positive spin on the proceedings if I may.Personally I believe that there is actually a solid foundation in terms of the players of this club from which we can build. Will it take the right manager? Absolutely. Will they need to step it up a gear? You damn betcha. But I believe they have all the attributes required to do our shirt justice. Not only that, but I think down the line they could help us become quite successful. Here are the names I have provisionally thought of, feel free to add to my comments on them or think up your own names to throw into that.Chris Martin By all accounts had a good season at Luton despite their relegation, which to be fair was a given from the start of the season anyway. He''s played roughly 50 games for them over the season and he can surely only be better for this. Has a reputation in some circles as a bit of a troublemaker but the seriousness of this NCFC situation will hopefully make him more mature and professional. I''m not 100% sure about the differences between Leagues 1 & 2, but surely if he can bang them in for Luton with relative ease he should be good for at least 10 goals or so this season for us as he continues to gain experience. It could even be a breakout season for him in which he shows signs of his full potential. Bringing him back into our strike force for next season almost feels like signing a new player to me. Could form a lethal strike partnership with Cody MacDonald over time.Cody MacDonaldSpeaking of the devil, I think this coming season we''ll only see Cody improve. Many folk will claim League 1 is quite the psychical league and thus Cody may find this a bit difficult. Codswallop I tell thee, I was there for his debut against Cardiff who are one of the most psychical sides in the Championship and he was giving them an incredibly torrid time. He''s one of the few players from the last two or three games of our torrid season that can actually look at himself and say he gave it everything he had. He''s young, extremely hungry and his confidence will only grow as he rips some of the feeble League 1 defenses apart. I wouldn''t start him in every game, he''s still got to be natured a bit and not pushed in at the deep end before he''s had a chance to hone his skills and reach his full potential, but a definite bench player who could help to cause some real damage late on. As the season progresses get him starting more often and see the results go our way.Korey Smith/Luke DaleySmith played out of his skin against Charlton despite most of his fellow players giving up before they''d even walked out onto the pitch. Has played well in the youth team all season and deserves his chance to impress in League 1 which will only serve as a great learning curve for him. Daley is another young Canary who had a chance to play recently at the end of the season and he''s similarly given a tremendous effort against a tough side like Reading. Both of these players should at the very least be on the bench. I say get them starting in pretty much all of the pre-season games coming up in the next 2 months and start building them up even more. Like MacDonald I don''t think the rough nature of the new league will phase them at all, if anything it''ll just make them twice as hungry and determined. Daley in particular scored a hat trick against Arsenal''s reserves early in the season which is pretty much all the reference you need as those Arsenal reserves could probably become a Premier League team all by themselves.Tom AdeyemiAnother youth team player who has been very impressive and one of the key figures in the youth team cementing their brilliant 2nd place finish in the youth league with only Arsenal''s kids finishing higher. Earned a professional contract thanks to his hard work in the academy and he''ll be another hungry youngster eager to get himself some games in the new league. He''s still got quite a way to go but I think he''s got all the potential in the world to become a Premier League player one day if he keeps up the good work. At the very least I think he could make for good cover in midfield. Over the next couple of seasons I''d gradually build him up so he''s ready to take on a starting position within the side.Micheal SpillaneLike Martin, impressed many people during his time at Luton despite their relegation and again like Martin it almost feels like we''ve acquired a brand new player. I think he''s ready to be put into the starting line up right from the start of the season personally. It may take him time to find his feet in the new league but he''ll relish the challenge if his performances at Luton are anything to go by. Now an under 21 international with Republic of Ireland, Spillane will be more ready than ever to do the business for us and to cement his place in his country''s squad.Declan RuddAnother member of the brilliant youth team who finished 2nd in their league this season. Highly praised young shot stopper who also produced a few heroics for them in the youth cup as they reached the quarter final stage. Has all the potential in the world to be a Premier League keeper. With the goalkeeping situation at the club in question for the time being it may provide him with the opportunity to step up to the plate. Is he ready for a starting place? I''ve no idea. But the least the lad deserves is a place on the bench. Should Marshall go I think it''s important we get an experienced GK so that Declan can learn from him and gradually be natured into taking his place when the time comes. He might well be ready to just get the no #1 jersey in the first place, but like Adeyemi I think throwing him in at the deep end so soon would be a bit too much. Still, certainly one to watch.Alan LeeI never said this list was just limited to youth players! My reasoning for Lee being on the list is due to his desire and determination during his loan spell with us. He''s only scored once but he''s also been really unlucky with some of his chances during his time here. Despite his binner connections he''s one of the few players that has really given his all in trying to keep us in the Championship. He''s already expressed his desire to stay with us on at least two occasions and I believe if we can bring him in he''ll be a brilliant permanent signing. He''s not scored many in the Championship all season, but then neither did Leicester''s Matty Fryatt in the year they went down. His goal scoring spree the next season saw them win the title and whilst I don''t think Lee could quite help us achieve that I think he''s got plenty of goals left in him. More than anything, he could be a leader for us in the mould of a Huckerby or a Dublin. So at the very least if we have a torrid season again we''ll still have a character like that to keep us from plummeting too far.Well, there''s 8 at the least. Ladies, gentleman, let the discussion commence!

[Superflash 0]

Actually, I''d better change my signiture a bit at the risk of contradicting myself!

[Minster Canary 0]

Fantastic observation, agree with everything you say. Would really like a blend of youngsters and experienced players next season - all on permanent contracts.

[JJ 0]

Good post Superflash and I don''t think there''s any harm in retaining any of the players you have mentioned. 

My thoughts are that if Martin and Spillane haven''t learnt from their time at Luton then they never will.  Lee is an absolute must because we''ll need players like him (and several more dotted round the side - God knows who).  Rudd should get some bench time and the odd game in the cups (potentially sell Marshall and Nelson and get an experienced old hand in).  Perhaps too soon to throw the other lads in straight away, but some bench time and cup games are a start.  Macdonald looks hugely promising.

Possibly retain Doherty as well, but I''m not keen on most of the others staying.

 

[Nobodys Perfect 0]

I feel we need to keep hold of Clingan. His free kicks and pens are something we have missed in recent seasons. If he does go, then the cash must be used very wisely, (something else that has been missing in recent seasons.) I''m sure he would attract a six figure sum, which should be used to tie up Lee and possibly Shackell. Get Hucks back (I know I know) in November to revive crowd interest, but he must be used very sparingly, only as an "impact" player and not at all if we''re in a winning position in a game. It''s all very well citing the basics of a fighting force that we could have, but where is the strength in depth? We''re very thinly spread at the moment, so some fresh faces will HAVE to come in. 

[JuanVelasco 27]

[quote user="Arthur Frederick"]I feel we need to keep hold of Clingan. His free kicks and pens are something we have missed in recent seasons. If he does go, then the cash must be used very wisely, (something else that has been missing in recent seasons.) I''m sure he would attract a six figure sum, which should be used to tie up Lee and possibly Shackell. Get Hucks back (I know I know) in November to revive crowd interest, but he must be used very sparingly, only as an "impact" player and not at all if we''re in a winning position in a game. It''s all very well citing the basics of a fighting force that we could have, but where is the strength in depth? We''re very thinly spread at the moment, so some fresh faces will HAVE to come in. [/quote]

Theres no point in keeping Clingan next season if he is going to leave on a Bosman as a result. He is a 7 figure sum player.

So technically you are valueing his 6 goals at between £1m and £1.5m. I would put it to you that the sale of Clingan would buy three or four players, and if spent wisely, would be much more valuable next season that ''his free kicks and pens''.

For a start, we could spend a few hundred grand on Alan Lee. If Clingan wants to sign another year with a minimum fee release clause and the board thinks they can find other ways of signing players then great, lets keep him, but if he isnt willing to sign that then there is absolutely no sense whatsoever to keep him.

Your post is very contradictory, you are saying that we should keep Clingan, but then saying that we need strength in depth and that we HAVE to sign players. The only way that we are going to be able to pay for players is by selling Clingan and possibly Marshall if anybody actually rates him...... otherwise we are using Crofts, Fozzys, Curetons wages..... to sign other free agents.

[Simon Lappin, King Of Spain 0]

Betrand, Shackell and Lee are musts.

We were lost without Bertrand at left back against Charlton, Shackell has been excellent since his return and Lee has got more fire in his belly than most of the team combined. We also desperately need a replacement for Otsemobor he was awful at Charlton and totally exposed by Kebe against Reading; two identikit goals from crosses down our right flank. Another thread suggested we could try him on the wing which I don''t think is actually too bad an idea, he certainly has no defensive ability whatsoever but his pace and the freedom to go forward could improve his contribution to games immensely. 

With the three I mention above plus Doherty, Cody, Russell and a few youth players, such as Smith (not Delia ;-)) and Daley we could actually have a fairly decent League one team.

[Smudger 0]

Thank god you are not the manager of NCFC.

[Don,tPanic 0]

The only problem there my friend is that none of them apart from Lee are physically BIG enough,this has been the trouble at this club for too long

[Superflash 0]

[quote user="Smudger"]Thank god you are not the manager of NCFC.[/quote]...Was this for me? :(

[ZLF 335]

We wont win with youth.  Rudd needs a seasons loan playing with a league 2 team to bring him along like Lewis,  with an assurance he can play next season.

Spillane & Martin may have benefited from being with Luton and will be valuable squad players.

I agree Lee is a good key signing.

But the rest are too immature and too small to have the impact we need to mount a promotion challenge.

We need real first team experience and allow the youngsters to take 20 mins a game this season to bring them on,  but we need a core of experienced ability,  relying on youth will leave us languishing in this league once again being unable to compete.

As for Clingan - preferable to keep,  but not for his deadball ability apart from pens (wooo) and 2 decent free kicks whioch he scored with,  his corners other freekicks were distinctly average  - lappin was better which sums it up really.  

[Superflash 0]

When I posted the list I didn''t mean I expected those 8 to start or be the sole reason of our promotion should we achieve that. But yes, experience alongside them will be unquestionably essential.Regarding Clingan, I think he''s pretty much a goner. I''d like him to stay as I believe in League 1 he''d be a key asset. But the longest he''d possibly stay for is until Janurary when a team from the top two divisions snaps him up. They may actually pay more in Janurary than they will at present as the stench of relegation wears off of him.

[Simon Lappin, King Of Spain 0]

[quote user="Smudger"]Thank god you are not the manager of NCFC.[/quote]

I assume that was directed at my suggestion that playing Otsemobor on the wing wouldn''t be the worst ever idea, but it''s certainly no more crazy than playing Shackell at left back. We''re likely to have a very small squad next season so we do actually need to retain one or two players from the current team, it''s not as if anyone else is going to buy the useless sod.

[Smudger 0]

[quote user="NXCanary"]

[quote user="Smudger"]Thank god you are not the manager of NCFC.[/quote]

I assume that was directed at my suggestion that playing Otsemobor on the wing wouldn''t be the worst ever idea, but it''s certainly no more crazy than playing Shackell at left back. We''re likely to have a very small squad next season so we do actually need to retain one or two players from the current team, it''s not as if anyone else is going to buy the useless sod.

[/quote]

Wy did you assume that it was meant for you?

It was aimed at the OP.

As for Ostemobor playing on the wing and Shackell at left back... [:$]

[Badger 0]

I haven''t watched much League One - never had to before - but from what I hear the Doc could be important too!

[Smudger 0]

[quote user="Badger"]
I haven''t watched much League One - never had to before - but from what I hear the Doc could be important too!
[/quote]

Oh hahaha not happy with two relegations on his CV The Donkey is going for a third... marvellous!!! [:$]

[valiant 5]

agree with everything though i also think a fully fit drury would be very important next year as long as he gets through pre season, his experience will be needed like doherty''s

[Superflash 0]

[quote user="Smudger"][quote user="NXCanary"]

[quote user="Smudger"]Thank god you are not the manager of NCFC.[/quote]

I assume that was directed at my suggestion that playing Otsemobor on the wing wouldn''t be the worst ever idea, but it''s certainly no more crazy than playing Shackell at left back. We''re likely to have a very small squad next season so we do actually need to retain one or two players from the current team, it''s not as if anyone else is going to buy the useless sod.

[/quote]

It was aimed at the OP.[/quote]

Fair enough, what didn''t you agree with? The whole thing?

[Taxing 0]

[quote user="NXCanary"]

Betrand, Shackell and Lee are musts.

We were lost without Bertrand at left back against Charlton, Shackell has been excellent since his return and Lee has got more fire in his belly than most of the team combined. We also desperately need a replacement for Otsemobor he was awful at Charlton and totally exposed by Kebe against Reading; two identikit goals from crosses down our right flank. Another thread suggested we could try him on the wing which I don''t think is actually too bad an idea, he certainly has no defensive ability whatsoever but his pace and the freedom to go forward could improve his contribution to games immensely. 

With the three I mention above plus Doherty, Cody, Russell and a few youth players, such as Smith (not Delia ;-)) and Daley we could actually have a fairly decent League one team.

[/quote]

 

Is it me, or am I the only person who thinks that Shax is pretty poor quality ? A combination of Shackell and OhIamsopoor in a back four which already "features" the Doc is scary, even in the third division . Look at those two goals we conceded in that critical game against Reading. Shax and Otsemebor at their finest.

[Superflash 0]

[quote user="Lord Snooty"][quote user="NXCanary"]

Betrand, Shackell and Lee are musts.

We were lost without Bertrand at left back against Charlton, Shackell has been excellent since his return and Lee has got more fire in his belly than most of the team combined. We also desperately need a replacement for Otsemobor he was awful at Charlton and totally exposed by Kebe against Reading; two identikit goals from crosses down our right flank. Another thread suggested we could try him on the wing which I don''t think is actually too bad an idea, he certainly has no defensive ability whatsoever but his pace and the freedom to go forward could improve his contribution to games immensely. 

With the three I mention above plus Doherty, Cody, Russell and a few youth players, such as Smith (not Delia ;-)) and Daley we could actually have a fairly decent League one team.

[/quote]

 

Is it me, or am I the only person who thinks that Shax is pretty poor quality ? A combination of Shackell and OhIamsopoor in a back four which already "features" the Doc is scary, even in the third division . Look at those two goals we conceded in that critical game against Reading. Shax and Otsemebor at their finest.

[/quote]The mistakes were definately cut a bit since Butterworth came in. We even managed to pull off some clean sheets which was seemingly impossible under Rodent''s regime. Semi has been unquestionably poor though. Shackell however was easily our best defender of the season and had he not gone to Wolves may even have helped us stay in the Championship. His displays toward the end whilst not perfect certainly kept us in the running to stay in the fight a bit longer.

[Superflash 0]

[quote]Right, we''ve all seen threads about the

players of the last few years who have not been good enough to wear our

beloved colours. We''ve seen various Gunny threads about the future of

his managerial tenure and we''ve seen various threads about official

statements and threads about us possibly going down again. I want to

try and put a slightly more positive spin on the proceedings if I may.Personally

I believe that there is actually a solid foundation in terms of the

players of this club from which we can build. Will it take the right

manager? Absolutely. Will they need to step it up a gear? You damn

betcha. But I believe they have all the attributes required to do our

shirt justice. Not only that, but I think down the line they could help

us become quite successful. Here are the names I have provisionally

thought of, feel free to add to my comments on them or think up your

own names to throw into that.Chris Martin By all

accounts had a good season at Luton despite their relegation, which to

be fair was a given from the start of the season anyway. He''s played

roughly 50 games for them over the season and he can surely only be

better for this. Has a reputation in some circles as a bit of a

troublemaker but the seriousness of this NCFC situation will hopefully

make him more mature and professional. I''m not 100% sure about the

differences between Leagues 1 & 2, but surely if he can bang them

in for Luton with relative ease he should be good for at least 10 goals

or so this season for us as he continues to gain experience. It could

even be a breakout season for him in which he shows signs of his full

potential. Bringing him back into our strike force for next season

almost feels like signing a new player to me. Could form a lethal

strike partnership with Cody MacDonald over time.Cody MacDonaldSpeaking

of the devil, I think this coming season we''ll only see Cody improve.

Many folk will claim League 1 is quite the psychical league and thus

Cody may find this a bit difficult. Codswallop I tell thee, I was there

for his debut against Cardiff who are one of the most psychical sides

in the Championship and he was giving them an incredibly torrid time.

He''s one of the few players from the last two or three games of our

torrid season that can actually look at himself and say he gave it

everything he had. He''s young, extremely hungry and his confidence will

only grow as he rips some of the feeble League 1 defenses apart. I

wouldn''t start him in every game, he''s still got to be natured a bit

and not pushed in at the deep end before he''s had a chance to hone his

skills and reach his full potential, but a definite bench player who

could help to cause some real damage late on. As the season progresses

get him starting more often and see the results go our way.Korey Smith/Luke DaleySmith

played out of his skin against Charlton despite most of his fellow

players giving up before they''d even walked out onto the pitch. Has

played well in the youth team all season and deserves his chance to

impress in League 1 which will only serve as a great learning curve for

him. Daley is another young Canary who had a chance to play recently at

the end of the season and he''s similarly given a tremendous effort

against a tough side like Reading. Both of these players should at the

very least be on the bench. I say get them starting in pretty much all

of the pre-season games coming up in the next 2 months and start

building them up even more. Like MacDonald I don''t think the rough

nature of the new league will phase them at all, if anything it''ll just

make them twice as hungry and determined. Daley in particular scored a

hat trick against Arsenal''s reserves early in the season which is

pretty much all the reference you need as those Arsenal reserves could

probably become a Premier League team all by themselves.Tom AdeyemiAnother

youth team player who has been very impressive and one of the key

figures in the youth team cementing their brilliant 2nd place finish in

the youth league with only Arsenal''s kids finishing higher. Earned a

professional contract thanks to his hard work in the academy and he''ll

be another hungry youngster eager to get himself some games in the new

league. He''s still got quite a way to go but I think he''s got all the

potential in the world to become a Premier League player one day if he

keeps up the good work. At the very least I think he could make for

good cover in midfield. Over the next couple of seasons I''d gradually

build him up so he''s ready to take on a starting position within the

side.Micheal SpillaneLike Martin, impressed many

people during his time at Luton despite their relegation and again like

Martin it almost feels like we''ve acquired a brand new player. I think

he''s ready to be put into the starting line up right from the start of

the season personally. It may take him time to find his feet in the new

league but he''ll relish the challenge if his performances at Luton are

anything to go by. Now an under 21 international with Republic of

Ireland, Spillane will be more ready than ever to do the business for

us and to cement his place in his country''s squad.Declan RuddAnother

member of the brilliant youth team who finished 2nd in their league

this season. Highly praised young shot stopper who also produced a few

heroics for them in the youth cup as they reached the quarter final

stage. Has all the potential in the world to be a Premier League

keeper. With the goalkeeping situation at the club in question for the

time being it may provide him with the opportunity to step up to the

plate. Is he ready for a starting place? I''ve no idea. But the least

the lad deserves is a place on the bench. Should Marshall go I think

it''s important we get an experienced GK so that Declan can learn from

him and gradually be natured into taking his place when the time comes.

He might well be ready to just get the no #1 jersey in the first place,

but like Adeyemi I think throwing him in at the deep end so soon would

be a bit too much. Still, certainly one to watch.Alan LeeI

never said this list was just limited to youth players! My reasoning

for Lee being on the list is due to his desire and determination during

his loan spell with us. He''s only scored once but he''s also been really

unlucky with some of his chances during his time here. Despite his

binner connections he''s one of the few players that has really given

his all in trying to keep us in the Championship. He''s already

expressed his desire to stay with us on at least two occasions and I

believe if we can bring him in he''ll be a brilliant permanent signing.

He''s not scored many in the Championship all season, but then neither

did Leicester''s Matty Fryatt in the year they went down. His goal

scoring spree the next season saw them win the title and whilst I don''t

think Lee could quite help us achieve that I think he''s got plenty of

goals left in him. More than anything, he could be a leader for us in

the mould of a Huckerby or a Dublin. So at the very least if we have a

torrid season again we''ll still have a character like that to keep us

from plummeting too far.Well, there''s 8 at the least. Ladies, gentleman, let the discussion commence! [/quote]I

posted this about a year ago, so in light of our recent good fortune I

thought I''d take a look back and see how these players have done with

regards to my predictions.MartinHas obviously

had an excellent season. I thought he''d pop up with 10 goals or so but

he''s even surpassed that. If we should be thanful for anything during

Roeder''s reign of terror, it''s the decision to send Martin out on loan

to Luton the previous season. He came back revitalised and ready to

prove a point, and goodness me haven''t we reaped the benefits. MacDonaldHasn''t

featured as much as I thought he would, but he''s still been a useful

squad player. Stragely, his highlight this season was probably his

breif stint in goal during the closing stages of the Carling Cup game

against Sunderland. Has popped up with the odd goal but still needs

time to progress and improve. I still think he''s got bags of potential

though. Korey SmithHas been fantastic this

season, he''s really stepped up his game. His energy and drive to

succeed are exaclty what we needed at this level and Lambert seems to

be nurturing him to become even better. He''ll likely find the

Championship much tougher next season (well, if we get there *touches

wood*) but with his commitment to the cause I think he''ll do just fine.

Luke DaleyStill young, but Lambert seems to rate

him. I think he''s had one or two niggling injuries this season too,

hence why his progress probably subsided a bit. AdeyemiAgain,

I expected him to feature more, but he''s certainly looked bright when

he''s come off the bench. I still consider him one for the future and I

think he''s got bags of potential.RuddMade his

league debut this season and has proven he''s ready to play football at

this level. Again, hasn''t featured often but he''s definatley made

progress from last season. IS he ready to be our Number 1 next season?

I doubt it, but he continues to be making good strides.SpillaneLooked

pretty solid in defence, the odd game aside, before he got injured.

Like Martin, he was better for the loan spell at Luton Town. When he

beefs up the fitness I think he''d be a useful squad player for next

season. LeeSmudger thought I was mad at the

time suggesting Lee could be "Our Matty Fryatt" in League One. Alas, he

was probably right. He''s not had too bad a season for Palace, popping

up with the odd goal. I still maintain he worked his socks off for us

prior to our relegation and it would''ve given us another option up

front this season, but he''d urely have been surpplus to requirements. Overall,

I got it spot on with Martin, Smith and Rudd. The others I don''t think

I was too far off the mark and as for Lee, well...I didn''t hear any

rumours about Grant Holt at the time!Still, there''s a couple of

names there that have certainly come good for us this season and have

been vital, giving us a strong core to build upon.

[TheGoogler 604]

Looks like you got it nearly spot on. As you say, though, Holt is not too different from Lee and your comments about the "Alan Lee" figure being a leader have proven to be very true. Holt has been just as influential off the field as the leader as he has on it by the sounds of it.

For me, Korey Smith has been a revelation. No one could have predicted the impact the lad has had - and even though you picked him out shortly after relegation as one to watch, in my view he has been the find of the season. I''ve already expressed a prediction that on ten years time I can see him being considered the NCFC player of the twenty-tens.

[grantroederdisaster 0]

You were not to far out with your assessments there!

 

I too think that Lee would of done well for us in League 1 but he wouldn''t of done what Holt has done and would have been more expensive!

 

Adeyemi for me has to get more physical or he''ll never make the grade.Yes nice that hes won best academy player or whatever its called but hes not in the team for a simple reason - he isn''t good enough!

 

No one on this earth would have predicted what Smith has done for us,lets hope he can keep on doing it!

I

 had to laugh at how far wide of the mark the rants from the legend that is Smudger were!

[Superflash 0]

I think with Adeyemi, we have to remember he''s still very young (is he even 18 yet?) so he''s still got plenty of time to fill out and that''ll help him get more physical. If you remember, there was a pre-season thread showing photos from the training sessions and it was evident Chris Martin had considerably beefed up from his time at Luton. So Adeyemi can do the same I reckon.  Smith has indeed been brilliant, but I didn''t expect him to be THAT brilliant. I just hope he continues to impress in the Championship, which I think he will.

[bjg123 0]

I hope you like egg smudger, covered in it here.

[Ivana_rubyatitz 6]

Do the decent thing Smudger and admit this guy was closer to the mark than you!

[Superflash 0]

In Smudger''s defense we were in a pretty poor state at the time and he certainly wasn''t the only one thinking that unless we sorted our mess out quickly, we''d be in big trouble. Plus, his posts in this thread were also pre-Lambert. I don''t wish to get into another debate about Gunny, but you''ve got to hand it to Lambert who has played a major part in getting these guys better prepared for football at this level. Also, looking at one of his earlier posts about Doherty, virtually everyone was thinking Doc was playing poorly and the 7-1 day of hell only heightened this thought process. Who could have predicted Lambert would give him a new lease of life?