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Mr Carrow in the City Stand

I hear the sound of chickens coming home to roost.

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The league table makes disappointing reading for us and, no matter how green and yellow our viewpoint,  it is  is sadly the result of some poor management decisions at both Board and Manager levels. There is a real danger our hard won and long awaited Premier place will be lost as a result.

-  Board funding  over cautious and basically inadequate over the summer to give Worthy a decent chance.

- some of the funds we did have wasted on the likes of Docherty, Gallagher, Helveg who have not made any impact at all with a quarter of the season gone. We couldn''t afford to sign players who were just to warm the bench.

- some decent players like Brennan, Mackay,  who were capable of making an impact and no worse than others just signed basically  frozen out by the Manager.

- failure to sign a striker, the one area we needed to strengthen before the window closed.

- Board ''releasing'' funds of £1.2M for January from the shareholders not claiming their money; too little and likely to be available too late by January.

- resulting frustration for players and fans and possible loss of confidence.

I''m sure many will say this is ''gloom and doom'', ''support the club'' etc. There''s no danger those of us who turn up at home and away won''t always support the club strongly but that does not mean we should be blind to a growing sense that they have been over cautious and not strengthened sufficiently to give us the best chance of survival. There is no way we should be worse placed than Crystal Palace, WBA, Southampton, Fulham etc but we are and most of our problems over the first 10 games have been self inflicted.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Poor decisions or prudent decisions ?

- Yes it would have been nice to have more money to spend but Worthy done well with the budget he had. We could have spent around £10 million but then that''s not really improved the likes of West Brom has it. Not only that but we have a large but manageable debt which needs addressing.

- Gallacher was a bosman and always going to be backup while Greeno''s here. He came here as we could offer him far more than Dundee but I''d imagine it''s still not breaking the bank. Helveg''s warming the bench but there''s till chance to make a contribution, I''d rather have an experienced player like him on the bench than someone we''ve paid a seven figure sum for and was pretty average. Doherty, I agree that the jury''s still out. As a defender he was one of the worst in the Prem last season, up front he''s ineffective. I don''t know why we signed him but at 24 yrs old there''s still potential once up to fitness.

-We were right to sell Malky, we got a decent price for a player out of contract at the end of the season. Let''s be honest, he wouldn''t have cut it in the Prem week in, week out. Brennan still has a chance but again let''s not forget that he had one good season for Forest, the majority of his time was spent on loan or in the reserves.

-A striker would be nice but the real weakness lies in midfield where we don''t have anyone with some creativity and the ability to pick players out and create chances. Strikers can only score when chances are created. If you want a striker who can make something out of nothing then you''re talking about money we haven''t got.

There''s still 84 points to play for, based on last season we don''t even need half of that to stay up and having seen all 10 games now I honestly think we''re getting stronger but these next few weeks are the real test. If we start getting wins then confidence will breed, if we don''t then I will accept we''re going down.

Still it''s nice to be here after many years of mediocrity....oh and keep the faith

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[quote]The league table makes disappointing reading for us and, no matter how green and yellow our viewpoint, it is is sadly the result of some poor management decisions at both Board and Manager levels. T...[/quote]

Mr Carrow,

I am a bit too depressed tonight to post my feelings but you have echoed my sentiments entirely and saved me the job. I agree with the points you make and wish that someone could answer them adequately to cheer me up especially the one about players being frozen out because I just dont understand why its happening.

Finally when Worthy let Iwan go he said theres no room for sentiment in football so how can he justify Holt still being first choice every week.

 

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Angel, I don''t want to sound depressing but Holt is in the team by virtue of the one metric that Worthy is so public about - hard work. If you get nothing else from Holt you can be sure of getting one thing: a lot of hard work and graft for 90 minutes. Unfortunately that isn''t enough in the Premiership many of the posters have already noted that ball control and accurate passing are a pre-requisite to being useful in the top division.

I''m of the opinion that that will come for Holt, but time is not something that City have - they need results and if the answer is to play a better ball player in place of someone who epitomises Worthy''s work ethic then I''m afraid Worthy has to suck it up and make the change.

Maybe Holt''s hamstring injury will force the issue for Worthy.

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I also feel as though the whole club have gone into the prem with the thought that if we go down we will do a Charlton and bounce straight back and live happily ever after. Wonderful if it works out that way but the reality is that it very rarely does, look at Leeds, Wolves and Leicester all struggling. We all know that the club has a large Debt but Delia has already said that none of the prem money would be used to clear the debt so thats not a factor in the miserly budget worthy got. I am a season ticket holder and will continue to be whatever division we are in  but I can''t help but feel disappointed at the lack of funds put into the team this season. This prudence with ambition attitude is sensible but we seem to have plenty of prudence and very little ambition. The most annoying thing is that we are only 3 players away from being a mid table team and because of our nervousness about spending money it''s likely we will go down and lose our better players. When Mr Chase was in charge he had no end of stick for not signing players when we needed them and while I know we are in debt the income nowadays is far greater than it was then. As the season wears on if things don''t improve the dissentors will increase as people grow tired of the poverty stories we are fed and if we go down the club will find it far more difficult to sell tickets as people begin to lose faith in their policies.

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My o my we all have such short memories worthy has done a fantastic job at this club and lets be honest out of those first 10 games we could have won half of those , fans were crying our for worthy to give mckenzie a go and still not much end product with that one , with little money and finding it hard to attract players to carrow road i would say worthy has his hands tied and is doing as best he can with what he has look where we have come since worthy took over LAYOFF him guys and lets get behind the club, he can''t control how new players will adapt when coming to a new club, just look at Birmingham and Charlton who have spent tons more than us and they are not setting the premier alight infact they are in a relegation dogfight like us so spending millions does not always mean success, and blimey we are only 10 games in to the season and from what i have seen so far city have every chance of staying up.

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Totally agree with you barclayendboy. There''s a lot of complaining about NW not signing a "proven Premiership striker" in the summer but no-one wants to name names. Presumably they think that somewhere there''s a shop selling strikers, and you go there and select one off the shelf. It ain''t like that - a) they have to be available, b) they have to be willing to join a newly promoted club, i.e. favourites to go back down, and c) they have to be affordable in terms of fees and wages, and agree to reduced wages if we do go back down.

Please, someone, give us some NAMES. Otherwise, complaints like that don''t deserve any respect.

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Good for you, Mr Carrow - you have merely put into a post what many fans are feeling right now

The fact that we do question what has been going on does not make us any less loyal supporters, indeed I would hazard a guess that many of us are the longer term supporters, and ones that have invested in the Club in more ways than one.

As for the people who claim that it isn''t too bad because we could have won some of our matches so far, the fact is we didn''t   We are bottom, and are rapidly losing touch with the immediate group above us.

As for players who we might / ought to sign, why do they have to be named?  Did anyone come up withe names of Ward, Gallacher, Helvig, Charlton, Safri, Doherty, Jonson before they were signed?  Nope -don''t think so

There are many, many players who are either fringe players at Premiership Clubs, or playing in other leagues both in this country, and abroad, who could help solve our two most pressing problems - being "creative" in midfield, and putting the ball in the back of the net.

Rest assured that other Clubs will strengthen their squads come January - the big question is, will we?

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I am rather saddened by the negativity to some of the comments on here.  A few things to think about:

....we are only a quarter of the way through the season wth plenty of time for things to turn around. Performances have generally been encouraging and we''ve only been really outplayed once (Liverpool); as I see it as only a matter of time before we win - indeed it is by no means beyond us to win both vs Man C and Blackburn.

...we have played 4 games we were never going to win (Man U, Newcastle, Arsenal, Liverpool) also Spurs [with their new manager, and it being away]) and Villa - who were both going to be very tough to beat (but we didn''t lose).  We ought to have beten Palace and Pompey (and deserved to), but we did make a ''gain'' vs Newcastle.  By my reckoning even with a good start we''d have only ever really been on 10 pts. 

...signings: people were moaning about Jonson only a few weeks ago, but now they seem to have accepted him.  I think it is only a matter of time before we see the best of Helveg too - you just don''t win 90 caps for a decent international side if you aren''t any good!!  Safri has done pretty well when called on, though deos like to get booked(!).  The jury is out on Doc, but did we not all think Iwan was poor in his first months?

My point is that we all knew our points tally would be small at this stage, so why jump to the conclusion that we are worse than we thought?  Also, some signings do take time to bed in and we have 3/4 season left to go. 

I for one will not be thinking negatively (at least just yet!), and I just hope the negativity here doesn''t make its way onto the terraces or we really will not turn it round.

 

 

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Portsmouth 2 - Manu 0 !

Arsenal 2- Southhampton 2  !

Results like this should be duly noted  !! .......  Soton gave the  " elite "  a lesson   ! .....  the look on Wengers face  .....

And what Pompey did to Manure was sheer bliss    ....

Soton and Pompey showed NO  respect  to their opponents exalted status ........  and that is the mental attitude  that the Norwich players should  carry in there heads  when they trot out  into the field    .........  your opponents are not as good as they think they are  .......  get into them  !!!

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I think it''s time for a reality check here. A couple of years ago, this club was 48 hours away from extinction. It was that close people, believe me. We were crippled by debts, and the vulture bankers were closing in.

This time last year, we were a mediocre, mid-table Nationwide team who had just been beaten by Northampton Town in the League Cup.

Who, on this board, in their wildest dreams, drove back from Northampton that night expecting to be playing at Old Trafford, Anfield, and White Hart Lane in the Premiership just a matter of months later?

Not me, that''s for sure.

The manager, team AND board delivered a minor miracle last season. In short, this club massively overachieved its expectations last season.

Even if we do get relegated this season, we will be financially stable. That is a very good thing, after what we''ve been though in the last ten years. But I happen to believe that we WON''T be relegated. Which is an even better thing.

We will stand a much, much better chance of survival however, if we all stick together. I find it incredible that Norwich fans are even contemplating slagging off the very same people who sent us into such ecstasy last May.

Keep the faith. This club is in good hands.   

 

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I know what you are saying but the problem is that we did get promoted and it is like anything else in life once you experience the good life you do not want to give it up.  It is the experiences of Northampton and playing at Rotherham etc that we do not really want to go back to without making a bloody good fight of it.  Of course that fight could start tomorrow night with a win at Man City (although I cannot see it myself) which in fact would put us only two points behind them and in amongst that group of clubs trying to pull away from the bottom.  I know there are certain fans that will complain whatever we do and to be honest I think we have played extremely well with lady luck not particularly being on our side.  I think we will get away from the danger zone however must start to do it quickly as the statement "it will come soon" is starting to wear a bit thin now.  Still if we do go down at least I will stand a chance as a member of actually getting a ticket for games instead of being allocated front row tickets (which I hate) to three games that the club decide I can go to.

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Yes I think that was the point of my original post. The need for a reality check before its too late for us to have a chance of staying up.

We cannot live off the exploits of last season for ever. That was then. This is the Premiership now and we''ve got 6 points out of 30 with a quarter of the season gone. I don''t want our great club to be subject to the embarassment that was Wolves last year and returned to sender.

We all enjoyed going up as champions and full marks to Worthy and the Board for that. The issue now is whether we are showing the quality of management to help us stay up. ''Keeping the faith'' and extreme financial caution doesn''t cut it in this division I''m afraid. I am also doubtful whether ''cheap'' buys of players like Docherty are ''prudent'' at all.  You get what you pay for and if the Board can''t adjust to this in January I feel sorry for players like Huckerby who are being asked to carry us too much and need to see some team strengthening.

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[quote]I think it''s time for a reality check here. A couple of years ago, this club was 48 hours away from extinction. It was that close people, believe me. We were crippled by debts, and the vulture bankers...[/quote]

Well said andy as i said earlier people have got short memories I''m afraid . 

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[quote]I think it''s time for a reality check here. A couple of years ago, this club was 48 hours away from extinction. It was that close people, believe me. We were crippled by debts, and the vulture bankers...[/quote]

Fair post Andy.  I''m always pleased to here people''s opinons.  However, you say:

"This club massively over achieved it''s expectations last season"

Why?  Surely it is more the case that we have under achieved for the last 9 years!  We really missed the boat when we got relegated 10 years ago.  We got relegated just before sky really started to pump money into the Premiership.  If we had stayed up we could be at the same point as Southampton, Charlton even Villa?  An established Premiership club.

Now we''re here and we''re back, lets give it our damn best shot at staying up.  IMO, this would be most likely acheieved if Nige had a reasonable budget for January.

I''m sorry if other disagree, but thats my opinion

 

 

 

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To those of us that think we should invest in January in order to give us the best possible chance of staying up the issue is fairly clear.  An investment of say £5m could help us stay in a division where the income is £30m (?) plus a season.

Not investing could lead us to being relegated into a division where we very nearly went bankrupt just a couple of years ago.

Invest £5m for a £30m return - makes sense to me.

Anyway, most peoples'' postings (including mine) are only supposition and opinion and I don''t think for one minute that the Board will be influenced one way or the other by this forum

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It all boils down to conviction. At board level this equates to the ''prudence with ambition'' mantra. From the outset, NW, having performed one miracle has ben set another similar task, that of keeping City up.

In order to give himself room to manoevre in the transfer market, he first had to cut the playing staff quite considerably. In picking up 2 useful goalkeepers for 250k, the excellent Charlton for the same, Doherty, Jonson, Helveg, Bentley all for less than 2 mill. he has done well i beleive, with one hand tied behind his back. The wages saved on Mackay, Roberts, Rivers, Crichton, Cooper, Easton, Briggs, Abbey and Sinclair will offset the cost of these players to a large degree, leaving our expenditure, overall, well below what is reasonably to be expected. Not to mention 300k garnered for Mackay. 

Several games this season have brought into sharp focus the chronic lack of a goalgetter in the squad... its cost us points already. Failure to make a decent attempt to stay in the PL, after the euphoria of 70,000 plus people in the city centre, would represent a big let down on the part of the club, and would be unforgiveable.

The efforts of the players, as always, are 110%. With moderate investment, safety, and a long stint in the top flight, would be within reach. Having sampled the Premier league first hand, a diet of Crewe, Plymouth, Stoke, Gillingham and Ipswich seems particularly unedifying.

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My only real gripe about this thread is the constant bleating about how much he will have to spend in January when there are 10 make or break games before Jan 1st and currently nobody knows how much he will have. 

I believe that we have performed more credibly than I had hoped, particularly in the 2nd halves, and I am proud that we are a low budget team playing good football. This is as much as I expected, but with a few more 3-0 tonkings along the way, in reality.

Last season was great, this season is too for different reasons, get behind the team at the games and on this site and if we are in any position where survival is possible in January I believe the money will be found.

bwod

   

 

 

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[quote]To those of us that think we should invest in January in order to give us the best possible chance of staying up the issue is fairly clear. An investment of say £5m could help us stay in a divisi...[/quote]

fat man fat

remember last year?  this forum is divided yet again into the same camps as before (apart from the sad loss of mook, where are you mate?), we seem to be singing from the same hymn sheets as then

the overwhelming feeling in the city (and beyond) last november was to buy hucks - he would get us promoted.  AND yes, the board did listen to us - some of them acutally said as much (deila at fans forum end of last season)

fans are very important to the club, whatever point of view they hold, and I will go all out and do everything i can to find out what money nige is going to get (for the limited transfer window) and if he doesn''t get much, why not!  I know it is not just a question of money, we need to adapt our style and be brutal and play our eleven best players in each position (not out of position and not players who just have the right work ethic) - but that is within nige''s hands, and i hope he does it

what is harder is convincing the board that going down and expecting to come straight back up is not a good idea

ask sheff wed, bradford and barnsley!

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Here we go again .....

Invest £5mio to make £30mio ..... great where do we sign up, surely we''d all be diving in for such a guaranteed return ...... all those who believe this should form a consortium and buy the club ..... except it''s not that simple is it?

£5mio wil buy us, at best, two of the players we''ve seen mentioned on here but at worst one man. What happens if your new star striker breaks his leg after a couple of games (Drogba , Cissee .... it happens). How much have West Brom spent? They''ve spent a decent budget on Premiership players past their best / luxury players, oversees players and sub-Premiership players. In Earnshaw they''ve spent big money (was it £3 or £3.5mio?) on a player who is unproven in the Premiership and hasn''t cut the mustard so far.

Does this approach sound familiar (I''d pay up to £5mio for Harewood!)? If Brom go down they will have to sell, they may be able to survive as they''ve already been up and down once and hence are likely to have better finanaces.

The simple fact is that at this stage we are the Gillingham or Crewe of this league .... We''re cash poor, expected to struggle, surviving on smaller crowds, hunting for bargains ..... Location wise we''re a long way from other clubs adding to our financial and expectation problems in attracting players.

I would rather have a decent chance of keeping a squad together following a relegation and then having a great chance at coming straight back ...... Now before you knock me, that doesn''t mean I don''t think we''ll stay up ..... Just think the long term position of this club is better served by the current approach than risk it all on overpriced players who come with no guarantee.

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We would all pay £5m to ensure £30m but there are no guarantees.

Apart from the mere issue of whether we have or can even obtain the £5m to spend on a striker my more practical concern is who do we get for £5m? Whats the point of talking cash until we know who the targets and their prices are?

Of the names suggested NONE are guaranteed or indeed are even LIKELY to be better than the ones already at the club. We all feel that they SHOULD be better but in reality is Ashton better than Leon? Is Harewood? And who are we to judge the Worthy is wrong if he thinks it really is Johanssen (who scored at the weekend?) In retrospect none of these stand out as being significantly better than what we already have which just shows how hard it will be to sign a saviour for the second Xmas running.

To go a class up will involve spending even more and as the likes of Birmingham & Blackburn have found there is no certainty of the striker finding the back of the net. OK he is not a great example but Bham signed an England internationl with donkeys (sic) years of experience of the prem, is still youngish and who has scored goals for well over £5m in Emile Heskey (not a player I would really want associated with us anyway but thats a different story!)

And thats before we start talking about getting these ''stars'' attracted to playing for Norwich in a relegation battle.

We are in a weak postion; unfancied to stay up in a regional team with limited funds - who you come here if you were a talented striker of the class that we know we need?

OTBC

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NEW Author

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SAME content

I am getting bored of reading the same old stuff, just posted by different people with different wording

Instead of complaining that the club isn''t spending big in January, why don''t you all just WAIT until January and see what happens?   Come January it will be obvoius whether the club has a decent chance of staying up.

If we don''t - they won''t spend as the club will stay financially stable with a healthy enough squad.

If we do - I am sure they will spend everything they can get their hands on including good old Greeno.

There''s no point moaning about lack of spending at the start of the season, its been and gone and the team has done okay considering the opposition.  There is no point moaning about lack of spending in January, it hasn''t happened yet!!!

My point is, why can''t we all just be positive until then?   The message board is so depressing at the moment.

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Hear Hear SF.  How anyone can assume how much or how little we have to spend is beyond me.  At the end of the day we have what we have and it is a sure bet the board are not going to let us in on what the figure is.   Come Jan we may be surprised and we may not. Probably not but we will just have to wait and see.  On the subject of tonights game

COME ON YOU YELLOWS

 

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Can''t agree with SF. If we can''t comment on what the Board did in the summer because its gone and can''t comment on what they might do in January because its in the future we going to have a pretty limited discussion. Football is about opinions and not just those which are comfortable to hear.

If you are on a Board of Directors and make key decisions expect those decisions to be scrutinised by those who are interested. I don''t think they would expect anything else really.

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my point is people are moaning about lack of money being spent in January when its months away still     What part of that don''t you get.  Its okay to have an opinion but people are complaining about something that hasn''t even happened as if it is a fore gone conclusion it makes me mad, especially as people keep starting numerous topics about the same thing when the old topics are still in the top 20!!

I just want some positivity around here.  By all means have an opinion on something, but don''t moan just for the sake of moaning.

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I don''t think people are specifically moaning about the lack of money being spent in January, Primarily they are moaning about the lack of money spent in the summer leaving as with a completely ineffective forward line and rooted to the relegation zone despite competing in all other areas of the pitch.

The transfer window issue is another thing wondering whether they will address the situation or let us slide quietly back down.

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Gazza - I do remember last year and the influence that the fans brought to bear. I also remember other occasions in the past when the fans have had a major inluence - from "Chase Out" to the fans raisingg the money to buy Gerry Howshall (who unfortunately was not the best signing ever :rolleyes

As fas as I am concerned longevity only belongs to the fans. No matter whose names are on the shares the Club "belongs" to the fans - no fans, no Club.

However, I don''t think that opinions posted on this forum have too much of an influence on the decision making process at Carrow Road - the more''s the pity - otherwise it would be enough money for a new striker come January

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