Whats happened to Norwich City (an outsiders request)

[giveitsum 0]

delia smith so stuff don''t rise

[giveitsum 0]

i love this club so much unfortunately i''m not a tv chef, just a cook who for this situation has found god . all will be good my frinds. bless up lfc

[gazzathegreat 0]

There is an article on Shaun''s post (with link) and some quotes from Kevin Baldwin on the Guardian site. Sorry can''t do links but this is the address.

www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2009/may/01/norwich-city-championship-relegation-league-one

Very good piece, plus some welcome publicity! How''s it going in the Press Office at CR I wonder?

[Lenny-boy 0]

Lost out on sky, bubble burst, got Delia Smith

[Match Day Pie 0]

These are all very valid, well put but obvious points from BigFeller - meaning obvious not in that he hasn''t written them extremely well (which he has) but more that we''ve all known this stuff for years and done NOTHING about it.

The biggest crime is the amount of AGMs shareholders have turned up to and done absolutely nothing to change things. Last year''s was the perfect example - we all knew we were on the brink of what is now becoming reality, yet chose to spend most of the session berating Roeder about Huckerby. The board must have been delighted. The shareholders at this club (small and large) are as responsible for the problems at this club as much as the board, players and management.

[nutty nigel 7,511]

Blimey MDP! I''m beginning to feel guilty now! As a season ticket holding fan with a small shareholding looks like it''s become double bubble for blaming me!

I blame Worthy Out[:@] (Not really but it didn''t help did it?)

 

[thebigfeller 200]

[quote user="Match Day Pie"]These are all very valid, well put but obvious points from BigFeller - meaning obvious not in that he hasn''t written them extremely well (which he has) but more that we''ve all known this stuff for years and done NOTHING about it. The biggest crime is the amount of AGMs shareholders have turned up to and done absolutely nothing to change things. Last year''s was the perfect example - we all knew we were on the brink of what is now becoming reality, yet chose to spend most of the session berating Roeder about Huckerby. The board must have been delighted. The shareholders at this club (small and large) are as responsible for the problems at this club as much as the board, players and management.[/quote]

MDP - I completely agree, mate. I had a letter published in the EDP in October 2007 making exactly the same points as I did the other night: something was clearly afoot behind the scenes at the time, Doncaster seemed very stressed whenever commenting on anything, and we later discovered Cullum had offered £5m for team strengthening at this point. And shortly before Peter Grant left, I also wrote this post on here:

http://www.pinkun.com/cs/forums/2/1040583/ShowPost.aspx#1040583

The whole thing is very, very bizarre. Walker, who it''s correct to say wasn''t appointed by Smith and Wynn Jones (they didn''t join the board until Nov ''96, and didn''t play a leading role on it for a good year or so more), actually did us an enormous favour by returning to the club at all. He was very reluctant, as he knew it''d be impossible to recreate his previous success, and realised what a horribly difficult job it was bound to be - and only the fact that season ticket sales were in three figures because Megson seemed to be remaining persuaded him to come back (in short, the club would''ve been at death''s door if he hadn''t). Then, an at times encouraging first season in charge was followed by a disappointing second - but we spent 97/8 ravaged by injuries, with no money to spend, and really, were just paying the price for the shambles Chase had left us in.

Whether MW could''ve taken us back to success, I''m not too sure; but at the very least, he deserved until Xmas of the following season to turn it around. Then, if we were still struggling, a calm, fair judgement could''ve been reached - but to sack him when we did, especially after what he''d gone through all season following the death of his poor wife, was absolutely despicable. Following that appallingly shoddy episode, we at least appointed a proven manager in Bruce Rioch - but he too was utterly hamstrung by lack of funds, and also by the shameful plotting behind his back which went on between Hamilton and the two majority shareholders. As a result, for my money our best manager since O''Neill was effectively the victim of constructive dismissal, and following his departure, was notoriously described as a "square peg in a round hole" by Ms Smith.

To prove to the world our marvellous ambition, Hamilton then immediately signed a bunch of nomarks, who were paraded by a beaming board. How come Hamilon had been immediately granted resources denied to Rioch? And to make matters worse, Smith and Jones became so close to the Blarneymeister that he still enjoyed their full confidence even when he left. He only quit because he''d asked his players whether they still had faith in him, and praise be, very few raised their hands. But that the club would not sack arguably the worst manager in its entire history beggared belief; and still more ludicrous was their pathetic blaming of probably the most docile local media in the whole country for his downfall.

There was, at least, a spell under Worthington where we finally had the right balance. Unlike his lamentable predecessor, he wasn''t too close to the board - and was extremely shrewd in challenging them and facing them down: first when demanding they either made him permanent manager, or chose somebody else, in early January ''01; then in calling for funds for real quality while being courted by Crystal Palace in Summer ''03. The underlying threat was clear - and the board had been so burned by the Blarneymeister episode that they had little choice other than to give in. Sadly though, following promotion, they started blindly backing him whatever (Delia telling the Guardian that our Nigel was the "next Wenger"), all the while Worthington began losing the drive, desire and refusal to stand for the complacency which had previously characterised the club which he demonstrated in spades when first taking over. As he went stale, so the board''s myopia became ever more ludicrous: all it would''ve taken was a "thanks for the memories Nigel, but things change, and it''s time to move on" - instead, they dug their heels in more and more.

And now, unbelievably, it may be happening with Grant too. A board so utterly devoid of real footballing expertise that they sack good managers prematurely, and maintain failing ones seemingly until kingdom come, might well continue to back him even if we lose at Loftus Road: otherwise, why are we suddenly back in the loan market for a centre back? Previously, they claimed we were being priced out: now, our interest in Andrew Davies suggests dismissing PG isn''t even on the board''s radar. I''ll be absolutely explicit here: lose on Monday, and he must go: failure to dismiss someone so clearly in over his head would be tantamount to pure negligence. The international break provides the perfect chance to scout around for someone new and proven (can you believe Rioch a full nine years ago was the last time we appointed someone with a successful track record? Incredible!) - but if they sit on their hands, then we''ll have to put up with this nonsense for at least another month, by which point heaven only knows what our league position will be.

I''m sick of the excuses, which our beloved Chief Executive will doubtless provide yet more of in his much-trailed column later this morning; I''m sick of the negativity; I''m sick of the absolutely shocking myopia. Action is needed now if a calamitous drop into League One isn''t to become a frightening reality; and if the board fail to act, then their time, too, is very clearly up.

It''s not rocket science - but the club failed to heed the warnings of 06/7 and 07/8, and here we are now.

[Match Day Pie 0]

BigFeller, have you seen The Damned United? There''s a scene in there where the chairman of Derby spells it out to Clough exactly how the hierarchy in the club works. It reminds me so much of NCFC, the only difference being thirty years later we still have that mentality - still run by small-minded business people with more concern about their standing in the local community than how modern football actually works.

I was at the first AGM after relegation in 2005, and when I stated to the board that - after our poor start to the season and less than inspiring signings - the January 2006 transfer window was going to be one of the most important in the club''s history, as it would determine our intentions to both players and fans, Munby and Doncaster laughed at me.

What happened? Two months later we sold Ashton, panic-bought Earnshaw and failed to strengthen the squad around him, resulting in the rest of our good players wanting away. The rest is history. Who''s laughing now?

[nutty nigel 7,511]

[quote user="Match Day Pie"]BigFeller, have you seen The Damned United? There''s a scene in there where the chairman of Derby spells it out to Clough exactly how the hierarchy in the club works. It reminds me so much of NCFC, the only difference being thirty years later we still have that mentality - still run by small-minded business people with more concern about their standing in the local community than how modern football actually works. I was at the first AGM after relegation in 2005, and when I stated to the board that - after our poor start to the season and less than inspiring signings - the January 2006 transfer window was going to be one of the most important in the club''s history, as it would determine our intentions to both players and fans, Munby and Doncaster laughed at me. What happened? Two months later we sold Ashton, panic-bought Earnshaw and failed to strengthen the squad around him, resulting in the rest of our good players wanting away. The rest is history. Who''s laughing now?[/quote]

The way I see it the good players didn''t want away until Peter Grant was in the building MDP. While there was undoubtedly a split in the dressing room at the end of Worthy''s tenure, the good players still pulled out the stops for him.

 

[thebigfeller 200]

[quote user="Match Day Pie"]BigFeller, have you seen The Damned United? There''s a scene in there where the chairman of Derby spells it out to Clough exactly how the hierarchy in the club works. It reminds me so much of NCFC, the only difference being thirty years later we still have that mentality - still run by small-minded business people with more concern about their standing in the local community than how modern football actually works. I was at the first AGM after relegation in 2005, and when I stated to the board that - after our poor start to the season and less than inspiring signings - the January 2006 transfer window was going to be one of the most important in the club''s history, as it would determine our intentions to both players and fans, Munby and Doncaster laughed at me. What happened? Two months later we sold Ashton, panic-bought Earnshaw and failed to strengthen the squad around him, resulting in the rest of our good players wanting away. The rest is history. Who''s laughing now?[/quote]

They''re so myopic and pleased with themselves that, frighteningly, they probably still are laughing to an extent. If they just give Gunn the job and Doncaster gives us the usual spiel after the board''s "period of reflection", it''d be ample proof of that. It''s no exaggeration to say that I think many posters on here could''ve done a better job of making key football decisions than Doomy and the board have.

In his autobiography, Len Shackleton famously entitled a chapter "The average director''s knowledge of football", before leaving several pages blank. That''s more true of the Norwich City board now than ever.

[thebigfeller 200]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

The way I see it the good players didn''t want away until Peter Grant was in the building MDP. While there was undoubtedly a split in the dressing room at the end of Worthy''s tenure, the good players still pulled out the stops for him.

 

[/quote]

24/3/06 Burnley 2-0 Norwich City

If that constitutes the "good players pulling out the stops for him", nutty, I''d hate to have seen what didn''t!

[Mr.Carrow 376]

[quote user="Match Day Pie"]These are all very valid, well put but obvious points from BigFeller - meaning obvious not in that he hasn''t written them extremely well (which he has) but more that we''ve all known this stuff for years and done NOTHING about it. The biggest crime is the amount of AGMs shareholders have turned up to and done absolutely nothing to change things. Last year''s was the perfect example - we all knew we were on the brink of what is now becoming reality, yet chose to spend most of the session berating Roeder about Huckerby. The board must have been delighted. The shareholders at this club (small and large) are as responsible for the problems at this club as much as the board, players and management.[/quote]

At the 2007 AGM my friend Keith Roads politely asked a few difficult questions which sparked the "if anyone wants to invest they can have the club" and "no-one wants to invest in Championship clubs" outbursts (it later transpired that Cullum had expressed his interest in that very month.....).  Keith was rounded on, aggressively asked to "name names" by MWJ, booed and sworn at by fellow shareholders, then came home to find himself being called every name under the sun by some of the know-nothing know-alls over at WOTB.

So not only have many shareholders done nothing about the continued failures and cock-ups, they`ve actually turned on those who have tried to.  Shameful.

[nutty nigel 7,511]

[quote user="thebigfeller"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

The way I see it the good players didn''t want away until Peter Grant was in the building MDP. While there was undoubtedly a split in the dressing room at the end of Worthy''s tenure, the good players still pulled out the stops for him.

 

[/quote]

24/3/06 Burnley 2-0 Norwich City

If that constitutes the "good players pulling out the stops for him", nutty, I''d hate to have seen what didn''t!

[/quote]

Thanks for reminding me of that game bigfeller! Had a bad journey up there and nearly missed the kick off. We started the game like world beaters and finished the game well beaten. But we missed enough chances to have won the game comfortably. The pitch was crap but in the first 15 mins McKenzie missed a couple and we hit the bar and tore them to shreds. Then, as often happens when we start like that, they scored with their first attack after about 20 mins and then we allowed ourselves to be bullied out of it. We had good players back then but we had lost the war-horses that we''d had in 2004 and that''s why we lost games like that after our relegation. However for all those short comings we''d die for that team now. Our bench that day included Earnshaw, Safri and Etuhu!

I usually go to Burnley, I guess mainly because it''s often not a saturday so I can. The one time we won there, in our promotion season, I couldn''t go!

 

 

[Match Day Pie 0]

The shame of it all is that reasoned, practical arguments like the many on this thread have been washed away by wave after wave of bitter vitriol in the past. I''ve found myself - despite disagreeing with the board''s actions - defending Delia in the light of ''old trout'' etc comments because it''s just so unnecessary - however, all it''s done is to muddy the debate we should have been having, sensibly, years ago. Now all we''re left with is the question, ''why didn''t we do something sooner''?

The best response would be to take the responsibility of finding new investors out of the board''s hands - or at least make it very difficult for them to say no. I have hoped, time and again, that they would learn by their mistakes but they haven''t. They''ve got Keith Harris looking for investors but while they still hold the final decision, it may as well be keith Chegwin.

[thebigfeller 200]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Thanks for reminding me of that game bigfeller! Had a bad journey up there and nearly missed the kick off. We started the game like world beaters and finished the game well beaten. But we missed enough chances to have won the game comfortably. The pitch was crap but in the first 15 mins McKenzie missed a couple and we hit the bar and tore them to shreds. Then, as often happens when we start like that, they scored with their first attack after about 20 mins and then we allowed ourselves to be bullied out of it. We had good players back then but we had lost the war-horses that we''d had in 2004 and that''s why we lost games like that after our relegation. However for all those short comings we''d die for that team now. Our bench that day included Earnshaw, Safri and Etuhu!

I usually go to Burnley, I guess mainly because it''s often not a saturday so I can. The one time we won there, in our promotion season, I couldn''t go!

 

 

[/quote]

Even in 2006/7, I looked at our team and wondered what the hell we were doing struggling so badly. Earnie, Safri, Etuhu, Hucks, Dublin, Crofty and an emerging Chris Martin: at the very least, we still had players we could connect and identify with. Steve Claridge commentated on our FA Cup game at Chelsea and couldn''t understand how we could be so low down in the table; but in retrospect, the warning signs were already there. If a side with that ability, and still in our second year of parachute payments could flirt with the drop, what would happen when we lost £7m the year later? Unfortunately, we have our answer.

[thebigfeller 200]

[quote user="Match Day Pie"]The shame of it all is that reasoned, practical arguments like the many on this thread have been washed away by wave after wave of bitter vitriol in the past. I''ve found myself - despite disagreeing with the board''s actions - defending Delia in the light of ''old trout'' etc comments because it''s just so unnecessary - however, all it''s done is to muddy the debate we should have been having, sensibly, years ago. Now all we''re left with is the question, ''why didn''t we do something sooner''? The best response would be to take the responsibility of finding new investors out of the board''s hands - or at least make it very difficult for them to say no. I have hoped, time and again, that they would learn by their mistakes but they haven''t. They''ve got Keith Harris looking for investors but while they still hold the final decision, it may as well be keith Chegwin.[/quote]

It''s funny. In my dreams, I literally imagine the fans taking responsibility for finding a new owner out of the current lot''s hands as you''ve described. God knows how we''d go about it though!

[gazzathegreat 0]

Yes, remember it well Mr Carrow, you can always be guaranteed some sort of floor show at every AGM. I wasn''t aware of the WOTB stuff, but spoke to Keith at the event this year and he seemed very subdued after what had happened when he asked those questions. Funnily enough while he was speaking there was a few of us clapping and encouraging him, I think Mystic (now called Canary Cherub) was one. I was another, the looks and comment I got spoke volumes for a long percentage of the shareholders. Rule One: Sit in strategic positions at them all, or better still stand at the back. At the AGM that year only a handful of people opposed the re election of Delia and Michael, and this year there were few opposing Munby, but a few more stuck their hands up opposing Doncaster.

As has been said in posts above, the Shareholders Meetings are strange events, including much stage managed stuff it has to be said. Although much was concentrated on Roeder and his behaviour/remarks it has to be said no one could have anticipated what he was going to say and I think the responses he drew from some shareholders did then take away much flak the board were due to receive.

Andy Larkin questioned Delia closely and the board of directors did admit they hadn''t a clue where to go next. That in itself is no small achievement. I have attended AGMs for the last five years or so and have to say dissent and anti board feeling is probably in the minority at these things.

Solution: Sell a few more shares to the wider fanbase, particularly to those who haven''t so far had a chance to buy them. Might even up things a bit, plus provide revenue for the club.

[nutty nigel 7,511]

[quote user="thebigfeller"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

Thanks for reminding me of that game bigfeller! Had a bad journey up there and nearly missed the kick off. We started the game like world beaters and finished the game well beaten. But we missed enough chances to have won the game comfortably. The pitch was crap but in the first 15 mins McKenzie missed a couple and we hit the bar and tore them to shreds. Then, as often happens when we start like that, they scored with their first attack after about 20 mins and then we allowed ourselves to be bullied out of it. We had good players back then but we had lost the war-horses that we''d had in 2004 and that''s why we lost games like that after our relegation. However for all those short comings we''d die for that team now. Our bench that day included Earnshaw, Safri and Etuhu!

I usually go to Burnley, I guess mainly because it''s often not a saturday so I can. The one time we won there, in our promotion season, I couldn''t go!

 

 

[/quote]

Even in 2006/7, I looked at our team and wondered what the hell we were doing struggling so badly. Earnie, Safri, Etuhu, Hucks, Dublin, Crofty and an emerging Chris Martin: at the very least, we still had players we could connect and identify with. Steve Claridge commentated on our FA Cup game at Chelsea and couldn''t understand how we could be so low down in the table; but in retrospect, the warning signs were already there. If a side with that ability, and still in our second year of parachute payments could flirt with the drop, what would happen when we lost £7m the year later? Unfortunately, we have our answer.

[/quote]

Our one chance was probably to forgive Worthy the mistakes he made in the summer of 2005 and back him in 2006. Had after all been unlucky with the signings of Thorne and MLJ and lost Francis at the last minute. He was still best placed to get us back up. We did neither and all we got was Lee Croft, with Dublin to follow. Two players who would go on to win POS I might add. Gambling on Worthy would have been better than gambling on Grant later.

 

[Match Day Pie 0]

We started that season playing some beautiful football - I remember watching us pass (and score!) Preston off the park and thinking ''wow''. But we all knew that signing only Crofty that summer would come back to haunt us, and a few vital injuries later, Worthy was gone.

Personally I think some fans'' attitude towards Worthy that season didn''t help, but the truth of the matter is that had he been given the right money to strengthen, we probably would have been ok. But then the board had the arrogance to think we were a ''solid Championship club with Premier aspirations'' that could afford to take a gamble on Grant, rather than a club in free-fall with mercenary players and unforgiving supporters who were desperate for a return to the promised land, despite our relative lack of cash.

It''s no surprise our best players and coaches like Hunter cleared off - they could see what was coming.

[mrE 0]

Well what has happened? Whatever happens with the last game of season whether we stay up or go down Its time for a long hard look and discussion, not just the board but everyone Including the supporters. It’s time for change, It’s time to put one of the best supported clubs outside the premiership back on the right tracks and if heads must roll then so be it. Maybe a new board? Maybe a new manager? Whatever it takes! But we desperately need a new fresh approach and it has to be in place for next season. I would like to thank Delia for what she has done but I feel she has not done enough in today’s modern climate of football to warrant her position. If I did not perform in my place of work I’m would be sacked, and same must be said for everyone involved with the club. No excuses no if or buts! We the fans and the club need a positive direction a new leader a new spirit. If we can’t find it, Norwich City will fold quicker than most of us realize another Southampton. 43 years I have been supporting Norwich and I now find myself at my lowest in all those supporting years. ON THE BALL CITY

[britjag 0]

Canary fans are everywhere. Los Angeles Daily News soccer blogger Nick Green is a City supporter and former Norwich resident.

[Mister Chops 7]

[quote user="thebigfeller"]

http://www.pinkun.com/cs/forums/2/1040583/ShowPost.aspx#1040583

[/quote]Brilliant post.

[canaryfan68 0]

Have just seen the Norwich fans who were clapping the players.....what the hell were you applauding? It makes me embarrassed to be a Norwich fan and this sums up why we are total sh*te,we clap for players who don''t turn up!

[The Butler 0]

[quote user="canaryfan68"]Have just seen the Norwich fans who were clapping the players.....what the hell were you applauding? It makes me embarrassed to be a Norwich fan and this sums up why we are total sh*te,we clap for players who don''t turn up![/quote]

Same as applauding and chanting for Delia at scum land.

Must not let other teams supporters think that just because we are relegated we are not all for the team,board manager etc etc.

Got to give them a last laugh at our expense!

[KenBrown 0]

''Fraid its a case of Pennywise Pound foolish when it came to the managersNo one since Worthington...

[thetfordforest 0]

not being funny but norwich are the worst team i''ve seen this season and deserve to go down , you could struggle to get up as well ( as forest did ) as i can''t imagine there being much of a budget and some of your better players will no doubt abandon ship , i bet sammy clingan is well chuffed he furthered his career by going to norwich !

[nutty nigel 7,511]

Well I was there and I didn''t see anyone around me applaud the team off after the match. What I saw and heard were boos, "you''re not fit to wear the shirt" And as I pointed out out on another thread, there were some individual performances where some fans thought those players were in fact fit to wear the shirt. These players acknowledged that the fans were fit to wear the shirt and some fans acknowledged those players in return.

But once again the focus on here turns to the fans. Folk who weren''t there allow the media to distort what actually happens. The players "who didn''t turn up" certainly did get the message from the fans during and after the game. A message that was loud and clear unlike the muttering from the high and mighty embarrassed fans who were watching on the wireless.

 

[Old Boy 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Well I was there and I didn''t see anyone around me applaud the team off after the match. What I saw and heard were boos, "you''re not fit to wear the shirt" And as I pointed out out on another thread, there were some individual performances where some fans thought those players were in fact fit to wear the shirt. These players acknowledged that the fans were fit to wear the shirt and some fans acknowledged those players in return.

But once again the focus on here turns to the fans. Folk who weren''t there allow the media to distort what actually happens. The players "who didn''t turn up" certainly did get the message from the fans during and after the game. A message that was loud and clear unlike the muttering from the high and mighty embarrassed fans who were watching on the wireless.

 [/quote]

Thank god for some sense from nn. "Sack the Board"? - the most pointless chant ever. The Board is in an impregnable position, nobody can sack them. They are watching their shares and the cash they''ve invested, as well as the assets of the Club, dribble away, but the only way to get them out would be for the fans who chant "Sack the Board" to front up with some money to buy out the shareholders (all of them, apparently), or to use guerilla warfare against them. Neither of those is going to happen. So why should people "watching on the wireless", the wireless warriors, tell the people who paid their money to go to the games this season how to behave, and accuse them of somehow giving the Board an easy time?

nn''s earlier post, about the changes of manager since worthy, was also very sensible. I argued strongly at the time against the "Worthy Out" morons on here who had no idea of how to improve things - they just wanted a victim. And this is how it''s ended up: they got what they wanted - Worthy out - and only what they wanted. The Board, like those WOers, were clueless as to how to progress, and that was what I feared would be the case. So it went from bad to worse, with the Board getting weaker and weaker each time against the mindless mob, and it ended with the appointment of Gunn, purely because he was cheap and appealed to the mob. He is less capable as a manger than Grant, in my opinion, so well done the mob.

[Andy Larkin 15]

A measured and reasonable responce Old Boy…However, I am sure that you can at least agree with the fact that if a large majority of the fans at The Valley were heard to be singing "Sack The Board (I know its not physically possible) instead of "City Til I Die" and applauding the team, then the message would be so much clearer to Delia and Michael would it not? I think they must get some pretty confusing signals from us lot? We don''t all stay to applaud the team at the end of the Reading game, but nor do we protest en masse either? Had that been the Chase Days there would have been blood on the streets… we all know that!Maybe they are sticking around cos they think there are more for them than against them.Well, the fact of the matter is that we are now in Division Three. That, to me, is nothing short of scandalous. And the only consistent in our steady decline has been our board of directors… two of whom have been there through it all.Now then, in order to stop mob rule having its way… what is your solution?

[Jerzy Krukowski 5]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Well I was there and I didn''t see anyone around me applaud the team off after the match. What I saw and heard were boos, "you''re not fit to wear the shirt" And as I pointed out out on another thread, there were some individual performances where some fans thought those players were in fact fit to wear the shirt. These players acknowledged that the fans were fit to wear the shirt and some fans acknowledged those players in return.

But once again the focus on here turns to the fans. Folk who weren''t there allow the media to distort what actually happens. The players "who didn''t turn up" certainly did get the message from the fans during and after the game. A message that was loud and clear unlike the muttering from the high and mighty embarrassed fans who were watching on the wireless.

[/quote]

Strange how perceptions vary. I was unfortunately in the home end surrounded by gloating Charlton fans and having to keep shtum and I saw fans trying to lift the team and showing fantastic support until it was clear the majority of the players gave not a toss. "do you even give a sh*t" rang out and there certainly was lots of anger. It''s always hard at the end of a game like that where some did deserve applause,and got it, but most didn''t and were told. Most of the team were an embarrasment and they got the message. There''s little evidence they could care less. The majority were quite happy to disappear up the tunnel afterwards without even having the balls to come to the fans, unlike Lee. Superb fan behaviour and pathetic team yet again. They don''t deserve us. I don''t want to hear criticism of the support. It was nothing short of outstanding in the face of continual provocation.