Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
concerned-scouse

Whats happened to Norwich City (an outsiders request)

Recommended Posts

[quote user="thebigfeller"][quote user="singing canary"]

i think what you have said was right if we go down or stay up .

the club has been in decline for several years , we shouldnt be in the position to have to rely on other result to stay in this division anyway .

you hit the nail on the head with every point , well done .

[/quote]

Thing is though, if we stay up (and for some reason, I''m getting this weird feeling that we will), you know many people will just forget about it. The board will hail Gunn (and rightly so), claim vindication and a fresh start; and no lessons will be learned. Of course I''d far rather we struggle in the Championship than face a bleak future in League 1 - if it goes our way on Sunday, I''ll be leaping around in amazement and utter relief. But it''d be very likely to prove the most Pyrrhic victory imaginable: I just can''t envisage this club doing anything but toil under the current ownership.

[/quote]

Your last sentence sums it all up for me which is why I find it beyond belief  that there are still people around who try and defend them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i like most fans will be really pleased if norwich can retain championship status.

yet decisions made by the board have been nothing short of  crazy gambles,and lack of experience in running a football club.

if norwich stay up , it would be through lady luck rather than prudence with ambition .

i think most if not all fans would agree with you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="thebigfeller"]

3. Failure to come straight back up. Chairman Robert Chase appointed Martin O''Neill on the proviso he would be given ample funds that weren''t there. When O''Neill realised this, it was only a matter of time before he left; when he did, the atmosphere around the club quickly turned poisonous, and the team started to slide.
[/quote]

Chase borrowed £2m from the bank to keep the squad together and provide some transfer funds for a promotion push. Unfortunately we signed Fleck back for £650k on a three year contract and he stopped scoring on a reasonable basis after half a season and we signed Rush from West Ham United for £300k. If I remember correctly Rush got injured.

We were top of the league when O''Neill left us for Leicester and they were are next opponents at Filbert St. If I remember correctly we were 2-0 up and then managed to lose 2-3. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

O''Neill''s signings certainly weren''t great. But Chase obfuscated throughout the Dean Windass affair and, frankly, took the piss: would MON have taken the job in the first place had Chase been honest about exactly how much money was available? Meanwhile, we hit 2nd in the table by winning 2-0 at Watford in a televised Sunday game; but then lost at home to Stoke and drew 2-2 with Grimsby at CR, falling to 4th before MON left. Those two results were, I''ve always believed, largely a consequence of the rapidly deteriorating relationship between Chairman and manager: by this point, it was only a matter of time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Tangible Fixed Assets anyone"]

[quote user="thebigfeller"]

3. Failure to come straight back up. Chairman Robert Chase appointed Martin O''Neill on the proviso he would be given ample funds that weren''t there. When O''Neill realised this, it was only a matter of time before he left; when he did, the atmosphere around the club quickly turned poisonous, and the team started to slide.
[/quote]

Chase borrowed £2m from the bank to keep the squad together and provide some transfer funds for a promotion push. Unfortunately we signed Fleck back for £650k on a three year contract and he stopped scoring on a reasonable basis after half a season and we signed Rush from West Ham United for £300k. If I remember correctly Rush got injured.

We were top of the league when O''Neill left us for Leicester and they were are next opponents at Filbert St. If I remember correctly we were 2-0 up and then managed to lose 2-3. 

[/quote]

There are numerous versions of the events around Chasegate, but my understanding is that Chase was the one who wanted to sign fans favourite Flecky to appease those who were calling for his head, not Martin O''Neill.  O''Neill wasn''t totally against it but Flecky wasn''t his choice, then when he wanted to sign a player of his own (Dean Windass) Chase wouldn''t play ball, hence O''Neill''s exit.  I believe we were 3rd in the table on that fateful Sunday at Filbert Street in December 1995 (Leicester were 2nd), but you are right about the score. 

Haven''t we had some ghastly experiences in the past dozen years or so, for me that day was even worse than Craven Cottage because O''Neill''s departure spelled the end of our hopes of an immediate return to the Prem and hence the end of an era.  The first thought that sprang instantly to mind when I heard O''Neill had gone was "It''s all over, for ever".  Not wrong so far, sadly.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Spot on Big Fella, that has hit the nail flush on its head.

How refreshing to read a sensible post other than most of the garbage posted on here.

 

[quote user="thebigfeller"]Hi concerned-scouse,

First, thankyou for a wonderful, heartwarming post. It''s gratifying to know there are people out there who still remember what this club once stood for. I''m going to answer your question in as complete a way as possible: hopefully it''ll trigger debate, if nothing else!

So, what went wrong? Here''s a potted modern history of Norwich City Football Club, with the most important mistakes emboldened.

1. Failure to quickly remove John Deehan as manager when it was clear he was floundering. That win in front of the Spion Kop occurred under him - yet having inherited the greatest side in our history, he won just two games out of 19 over the rest of 1993/4. Victory at Anfield was like a tribute to the European heroes of six months earlier - but it already felt like a distant dream. The club went into decline the moment Mike Walker departed for Everton, and Ruel Fox and Chris Sutton left soon afterwards.

2. Failure to back him properly, especially in terms of strikers - and Deehan''s failure to adequately replace Bryan Gunn when, on one of the most pivotal days in our entire history, he broke his leg in a 1-0 defeat at Nottingham Forest in late December 1994. Open, passing sides need a great goalkeeper. We''d already been winging it for much of that season; in his absence, we suddenly had no protection. Cue one of the worst second half of the season collapses in EPL history, and relegation right at the moment when big money was starting to come into the game - but wiser fans had seen it coming.

3. Failure to come straight back up. Chairman Robert Chase appointed Martin O''Neill on the proviso he would be given ample funds that weren''t there. When O''Neill realised this, it was only a matter of time before he left; when he did, the atmosphere around the club quickly turned poisonous, and the team started to slide. As soon as it became clear we weren''t going to achieve promotion, the banks called in their debts - and suddenly we faced a battle for the club''s entire survival. Thanks to the late, great Geoffrey Watling, who to my mind did more for NCFC than anyone else in our history, Chase was forced out - but having started 1995/6 confidently expected by pundits up and down the land to swiftly return to the top flight, we ended it severely diminished, and effectively back at square one.

4. Our financial position meant many years would have to be spent fighting our debt, meaning little or nothing was made available either to the returning Mike Walker or his successor, Bruce Rioch. Appallingly, and to their eternal shame, Delia Smith''s new board sacked Walker - who against his better judgement, had effectively ridden to our rescue in Summer 1996 - prematurely; then treated Rioch quite disgracefully, hanging him out to dry, describing him as a "square peg in a round hole", and conniving with Director of Football Bryan Hamilton, who effectively stabbed Rioch in the back. Hamilton, despite a managerial CV which made Alan Ball look like Bill Shankly, was immediately appointed, with catastrophic effect - and by Xmas 2000, Norwich were staring at the abyss of the old Third Division.

5. Now, more by luck than judgement, the board finally got something right. Hamilton was replaced with his assistant Nigel Worthington, and relegation avoided. With the board under mounting pressure because of their poor record and Ipswich''s success around that time, Worthington was able to face them down and demand real funds, which he spent wisely. ITV Digital''s deal with the Football League had enabled us to push the boat out a bit; but when it collapsed, it effectively forced us into gambling on promotion. Spending money we hadn''t yet received meant we could only recoup it through a return to the EPL, and failure could''ve left us in an even worse position than we are now. Darren Huckerby''s permanent signing later, as well as those of Leon McKenzie, Matthias Svensson, and the loan signings of Peter Crouch and Kevin Harper, helped us sail to the title in 2004.

6. But here, the mistakes started again, and have never stopped since. Worthington''s decision to release talismanic captain Malky Mackay left the side short of leadership and spirit in the top flight; the board''s failure to sign Dean Ashton in Summer 2004 rather than January 2005 left us short of goals. Even then, the appalling lack of quality within the bottom four that season left us with every chance of survival - but Worthington had never figured out how to win on the road (if you look at his record with Northern Ireland, he still hasn''t!), and leads in crunch games were thrown away like confetti. Norwich were relegated thanks to a humiliating 6-0 clobbering at Fulham: a defeat which has cast a pall over the club ever since, and we''ve never recovered from.

7. Back in the Championship, we were again expected to challenge - but something within the team was wrong. Very wrong, in fact. The manager''s new signings flopped badly, and we spent much of the first half of the campaign in or near the relegation zone. Nigel was clearly past his sell by date, as happens to all except the most exceptional managers eventually; but rather than quietly take him to one side in late Autumn 2005, thank him for the memories and send him on his way, the club staggeringly failed to act. Worthington was allowed to flounder on amid a divisive atmosphere, our crucial parachute payments over halfway to being exhausted.

8. When he finally left in October 2006, time had already almost run out. Into our second and final season of parachute payments, the club needed to appoint a proven manager with a decent track record: some sort of equivalent of Tony Mowbray, if you like. Instead, we plumped for completely unproven Peter Grant. Grant certainly loved the club, and did his very best - but his utterly non-existent man-management skills, appalling signings and tendency to be a one man slag it off if it moves brigade led morale in the dressing room to collapse, and Norwich to slump to bottom of the table - now minus parachute payments - just after his departure in October 2007.

9. Our fast deteriorating financial position meant the idea of any return to the Premier League was now risible. Making matters still  worse was the club''s decision to build the new Jarrold Stand in 2003, and securitise it against future season ticket sales. This increased capacity - but also meant a large proportion of the extra revenue brought in must now necessarily go towards interest on and paying off the loan taken at the time. Other investments in property around the stadium by the board proved wildly optimistic too.

10. Caught between a rock and a hard place, instead of appointing the equivalent of, say, Neil Warnock, who knows his way around this league and even this year, has kept Crystal Palace in a comfortable position while Norwich and Southampton, relegated with Palace in 2005, have plunged towards League 1, the board yet again got it wrong by appointing Glenn Roeder. To be fair to him, Roeder inspired a revival at first; but the signs were bad even by the end of last season, with his and the club''s disgraceful treatment of Darren Huckerby a sign of how out of touch and arrogant he and they were becoming. This season, it became far worse: Roeder''s obsession with loan signings destroying any cohesion or continuity within the team; his contemptuous dismissal of paying supporters who dared question his judgement - and were horribly aware of his dire CV in management - threatening to destroy the one positive remaining at the club: the bond between it and its public.

11. The board had already openly acknowledged it had run out of ideas, and made a complete mess of the approach of wealthy businessman Peter Cullum last summer, as well as losing an anticipated £2m of investment through the abrupt departure of Andrew and Sharon Turner. Just how hard they sought new investment is open to question: many believe Delia''s insistence on only a bona fide Norwich fan being suitable effectively made it close to impossible, and her board''s apparent over-pricing of the club did the rest. With City again in serious relegation trouble, surely this time they''d look for a proven manager? Someone like Aidy Boothroyd, with prior connections to and genuine affection for Norwich, say? But no. Instead, in an utterly reckless gamble, they gave the job to club legend Bryan Gunn - with no prior managerial experience whatever - on the strength of one single game as caretaker.

12. What has followed since has hardly been Gunny''s fault: we all love him, and he stepped up to the plate in extremis. But he should never have been put in such a position in the first place: our predicament demanded wisdom on the part of the board, and they failed utterly. It''s not working for Alan Shearer at Newcastle; it hasn''t worked for Bryan Gunn at Norwich.

Relegation - barring a wholly undeserved get out of jail free card being brandished on Sunday - hasn''t come out of the blue. In truth, there''s been a smell of death about Norwich City FC for at least four years now. You may have noticed the lack of "whatever happened to Norwich City?" articles in the press, in contrast to pieces looking at Charlton, Southampton, or before them, Nottingham Forest, Sheffield Wednesday or Leeds. There aren''t any because the club sells itself so chronically short. Despite almost 25000 fans continuing to turn up to watch utter dross for four straight seasons, despite being the only club in an entire county, despite the entrepreneurs who''ve moved to Norwich in order to travel into London over the past decade (I appreciate the credit crunch has put the kybosh on this now, but it hardly did so during ten years or so in which the rich got richer and football clubs grew out of all recognition), the club styles itself as "little Norwich", unable to compete, and unwilling to either behave ruthlessly or what it myopically perceives as sell its soul in order to succeed.

For Delia Smith''s board, community comes first every time; winning a poor second. Preposterously, this led them to term our relegation season of 2004/5 a "success"; it''s also led them to place an impossibly high bar on securing new investment and, indeed, to think it''d be alright on the night if we appointed a "Norwich man" as manager. Abundantly clear throughout has been the chronic lack of real footballing expertise within the board, and more latterly, a complete lack of vision or any plan for the future. Smith''s strategy failed when we came down in 2005 and failed to go back up by 2007: she may even have been disillusioned by what modern football seems to have become. But rather than throw the kitchen sink at courting a new buyer, she just became more stubborn than ever: spurning Cullum''s advances as the board muddled on to nowhere fast.

Some observers admire this club for its refusal to bend to the realities of modern football, and maintenance of high principles. But while it''s all very well having a Unique Selling Point, it''s another thing entirely when that refusal to change just results in ever more precipitous decline. Within the last week, Ipswich Town demonstrated their very obvious ambition by appointing Roy Keane as manager, and promising him substantial money to spend on players. Ipswich were taken over last season by someone who is considered good enough as a donor by the Liberal Democrats, but wouldn''t have passed Delia''s fit and proper person test in a million years. Their future is risky, hard to predict in the longer term, but bright; ours - the fabled community club - is all set to be at our lowest level in almost 50 years. The contrast could not be more stark: and if one group of people are to blame above all else for the decline of this football club, it''s Delia Smith and her board. And - perhaps worst of all - I don''t think they''ve learned a thing throughout the entire journey.
[/quote]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Spot on Big Fella, that has hit the nail flush on its head.

How refreshing to read a sensible post other than most of the garbage posted on here.

 

[quote user="thebigfeller"]Hi concerned-scouse,

First, thankyou for a wonderful, heartwarming post. It''s gratifying to know there are people out there who still remember what this club once stood for. I''m going to answer your question in as complete a way as possible: hopefully it''ll trigger debate, if nothing else!

So, what went wrong? Here''s a potted modern history of Norwich City Football Club, with the most important mistakes emboldened.

1. Failure to quickly remove John Deehan as manager when it was clear he was floundering. That win in front of the Spion Kop occurred under him - yet having inherited the greatest side in our history, he won just two games out of 19 over the rest of 1993/4. Victory at Anfield was like a tribute to the European heroes of six months earlier - but it already felt like a distant dream. The club went into decline the moment Mike Walker departed for Everton, and Ruel Fox and Chris Sutton left soon afterwards.

2. Failure to back him properly, especially in terms of strikers - and Deehan''s failure to adequately replace Bryan Gunn when, on one of the most pivotal days in our entire history, he broke his leg in a 1-0 defeat at Nottingham Forest in late December 1994. Open, passing sides need a great goalkeeper. We''d already been winging it for much of that season; in his absence, we suddenly had no protection. Cue one of the worst second half of the season collapses in EPL history, and relegation right at the moment when big money was starting to come into the game - but wiser fans had seen it coming.

3. Failure to come straight back up. Chairman Robert Chase appointed Martin O''Neill on the proviso he would be given ample funds that weren''t there. When O''Neill realised this, it was only a matter of time before he left; when he did, the atmosphere around the club quickly turned poisonous, and the team started to slide. As soon as it became clear we weren''t going to achieve promotion, the banks called in their debts - and suddenly we faced a battle for the club''s entire survival. Thanks to the late, great Geoffrey Watling, who to my mind did more for NCFC than anyone else in our history, Chase was forced out - but having started 1995/6 confidently expected by pundits up and down the land to swiftly return to the top flight, we ended it severely diminished, and effectively back at square one.

4. Our financial position meant many years would have to be spent fighting our debt, meaning little or nothing was made available either to the returning Mike Walker or his successor, Bruce Rioch. Appallingly, and to their eternal shame, Delia Smith''s new board sacked Walker - who against his better judgement, had effectively ridden to our rescue in Summer 1996 - prematurely; then treated Rioch quite disgracefully, hanging him out to dry, describing him as a "square peg in a round hole", and conniving with Director of Football Bryan Hamilton, who effectively stabbed Rioch in the back. Hamilton, despite a managerial CV which made Alan Ball look like Bill Shankly, was immediately appointed, with catastrophic effect - and by Xmas 2000, Norwich were staring at the abyss of the old Third Division.

5. Now, more by luck than judgement, the board finally got something right. Hamilton was replaced with his assistant Nigel Worthington, and relegation avoided. With the board under mounting pressure because of their poor record and Ipswich''s success around that time, Worthington was able to face them down and demand real funds, which he spent wisely. ITV Digital''s deal with the Football League had enabled us to push the boat out a bit; but when it collapsed, it effectively forced us into gambling on promotion. Spending money we hadn''t yet received meant we could only recoup it through a return to the EPL, and failure could''ve left us in an even worse position than we are now. Darren Huckerby''s permanent signing later, as well as those of Leon McKenzie, Matthias Svensson, and the loan signings of Peter Crouch and Kevin Harper, helped us sail to the title in 2004.

6. But here, the mistakes started again, and have never stopped since. Worthington''s decision to release talismanic captain Malky Mackay left the side short of leadership and spirit in the top flight; the board''s failure to sign Dean Ashton in Summer 2004 rather than January 2005 left us short of goals. Even then, the appalling lack of quality within the bottom four that season left us with every chance of survival - but Worthington had never figured out how to win on the road (if you look at his record with Northern Ireland, he still hasn''t!), and leads in crunch games were thrown away like confetti. Norwich were relegated thanks to a humiliating 6-0 clobbering at Fulham: a defeat which has cast a pall over the club ever since, and we''ve never recovered from.

7. Back in the Championship, we were again expected to challenge - but something within the team was wrong. Very wrong, in fact. The manager''s new signings flopped badly, and we spent much of the first half of the campaign in or near the relegation zone. Nigel was clearly past his sell by date, as happens to all except the most exceptional managers eventually; but rather than quietly take him to one side in late Autumn 2005, thank him for the memories and send him on his way, the club staggeringly failed to act. Worthington was allowed to flounder on amid a divisive atmosphere, our crucial parachute payments over halfway to being exhausted.

8. When he finally left in October 2006, time had already almost run out. Into our second and final season of parachute payments, the club needed to appoint a proven manager with a decent track record: some sort of equivalent of Tony Mowbray, if you like. Instead, we plumped for completely unproven Peter Grant. Grant certainly loved the club, and did his very best - but his utterly non-existent man-management skills, appalling signings and tendency to be a one man slag it off if it moves brigade led morale in the dressing room to collapse, and Norwich to slump to bottom of the table - now minus parachute payments - just after his departure in October 2007.

9. Our fast deteriorating financial position meant the idea of any return to the Premier League was now risible. Making matters still  worse was the club''s decision to build the new Jarrold Stand in 2003, and securitise it against future season ticket sales. This increased capacity - but also meant a large proportion of the extra revenue brought in must now necessarily go towards interest on and paying off the loan taken at the time. Other investments in property around the stadium by the board proved wildly optimistic too.

10. Caught between a rock and a hard place, instead of appointing the equivalent of, say, Neil Warnock, who knows his way around this league and even this year, has kept Crystal Palace in a comfortable position while Norwich and Southampton, relegated with Palace in 2005, have plunged towards League 1, the board yet again got it wrong by appointing Glenn Roeder. To be fair to him, Roeder inspired a revival at first; but the signs were bad even by the end of last season, with his and the club''s disgraceful treatment of Darren Huckerby a sign of how out of touch and arrogant he and they were becoming. This season, it became far worse: Roeder''s obsession with loan signings destroying any cohesion or continuity within the team; his contemptuous dismissal of paying supporters who dared question his judgement - and were horribly aware of his dire CV in management - threatening to destroy the one positive remaining at the club: the bond between it and its public.

11. The board had already openly acknowledged it had run out of ideas, and made a complete mess of the approach of wealthy businessman Peter Cullum last summer, as well as losing an anticipated £2m of investment through the abrupt departure of Andrew and Sharon Turner. Just how hard they sought new investment is open to question: many believe Delia''s insistence on only a bona fide Norwich fan being suitable effectively made it close to impossible, and her board''s apparent over-pricing of the club did the rest. With City again in serious relegation trouble, surely this time they''d look for a proven manager? Someone like Aidy Boothroyd, with prior connections to and genuine affection for Norwich, say? But no. Instead, in an utterly reckless gamble, they gave the job to club legend Bryan Gunn - with no prior managerial experience whatever - on the strength of one single game as caretaker.

12. What has followed since has hardly been Gunny''s fault: we all love him, and he stepped up to the plate in extremis. But he should never have been put in such a position in the first place: our predicament demanded wisdom on the part of the board, and they failed utterly. It''s not working for Alan Shearer at Newcastle; it hasn''t worked for Bryan Gunn at Norwich.

Relegation - barring a wholly undeserved get out of jail free card being brandished on Sunday - hasn''t come out of the blue. In truth, there''s been a smell of death about Norwich City FC for at least four years now. You may have noticed the lack of "whatever happened to Norwich City?" articles in the press, in contrast to pieces looking at Charlton, Southampton, or before them, Nottingham Forest, Sheffield Wednesday or Leeds. There aren''t any because the club sells itself so chronically short. Despite almost 25000 fans continuing to turn up to watch utter dross for four straight seasons, despite being the only club in an entire county, despite the entrepreneurs who''ve moved to Norwich in order to travel into London over the past decade (I appreciate the credit crunch has put the kybosh on this now, but it hardly did so during ten years or so in which the rich got richer and football clubs grew out of all recognition), the club styles itself as "little Norwich", unable to compete, and unwilling to either behave ruthlessly or what it myopically perceives as sell its soul in order to succeed.

For Delia Smith''s board, community comes first every time; winning a poor second. Preposterously, this led them to term our relegation season of 2004/5 a "success"; it''s also led them to place an impossibly high bar on securing new investment and, indeed, to think it''d be alright on the night if we appointed a "Norwich man" as manager. Abundantly clear throughout has been the chronic lack of real footballing expertise within the board, and more latterly, a complete lack of vision or any plan for the future. Smith''s strategy failed when we came down in 2005 and failed to go back up by 2007: she may even have been disillusioned by what modern football seems to have become. But rather than throw the kitchen sink at courting a new buyer, she just became more stubborn than ever: spurning Cullum''s advances as the board muddled on to nowhere fast.

Some observers admire this club for its refusal to bend to the realities of modern football, and maintenance of high principles. But while it''s all very well having a Unique Selling Point, it''s another thing entirely when that refusal to change just results in ever more precipitous decline. Within the last week, Ipswich Town demonstrated their very obvious ambition by appointing Roy Keane as manager, and promising him substantial money to spend on players. Ipswich were taken over last season by someone who is considered good enough as a donor by the Liberal Democrats, but wouldn''t have passed Delia''s fit and proper person test in a million years. Their future is risky, hard to predict in the longer term, but bright; ours - the fabled community club - is all set to be at our lowest level in almost 50 years. The contrast could not be more stark: and if one group of people are to blame above all else for the decline of this football club, it''s Delia Smith and her board. And - perhaps worst of all - I don''t think they''ve learned a thing throughout the entire journey.
[/quote]

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We weren''t top Tangie, I think we were not far off but had started to slip away. We lost a couple of games and then Windass signed for Aberdeen for less that we paid for Flecky. I agree with Cherub. Rush was probably O''Neill''s only real signing and his career finished after one game. I always thought there was something strange about Flecky''s return and can''t help wondering if Chelsea still owed us money from the 2m transfer fee a few years earlier. If I remember rightly he came back on loan first. Having scored at a rate of one in three in his first spell Fleck was not nearly so prolific on his return. Hindsight suggests we''d have got a much better return if that money had been spent on Windass but maybe that wasn''t possible.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Some very good points big fella. Hopefully the board will sit up and take notice, although I won''t be holding my breath.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This is the best forum topic I have read by along way. It is really good to see a proper debate without pointless swearing or unjustified arguments.I am an Ipswich fan, so apologies for intruding, but I wanted to know what had gone so wrong up the A140. I just wanted to comment on some of the points.Some comparisons have been made to Ipswich regarding the financial situations. When Ipswich went into administration it was a real embarrassment for myself and Sheepshanks should have left in shame. It was a business decision, but not one that sits easy, and we had overexerted ourselves. It is good to see Norwich are trying not to take the easy way out.We have been reasonably successful due to some kind donations from Michael Spencer and Holly Bellingham and were fortunate to receive these before Marcus Evans joined. The Norwich board seem reluctant to accept these donations? Ipswich did take the same route as Norwich by choosing an ex player, in Ipswich''s case obviously the cheap option.We were so fortunate to have Marcus Evans, who is running the club as a business more than as part of the community. He is taking business decisions which is unfortunately how football is being run these days, but seems to be the only way. Roy Keane is a gamble but it shows real ambition the same with Simon Clegg being appointed. Finally and from a footballing perspective the amount of loanees that Norwich have is verging on the ridiculous. It was very evident during the derby that they didn''t have the heart in the club. It is easy for them to return to the reserves at thier parent club and not worry about the fate of Norwich City. Norwich always had players who loved the club, Roberts, Huckerby, Dublin to an extent, but only Doherty seemed to have that desire needed in the current team.And remember you are not down yet!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

An excellent initial post, & an excellent response from Big Fella.

I''d like to see an approriate response from Smith to the points raised, but I''m not holding my breath. I just hope people aren''t taken in by rubbish like ''bleeding yellow & green'' ''this hurts me more than it does the fans'' ''loyal supporters'' ''spirit of 1958/9'' ''all hands to the pump'' etc etc which is bound to follow from her or Doncaster in the next few weeks. Don''t kid yourselves it will be any better next season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I along with many others I am sure, sent this to Doncaster, I received a very quick reply, the usual rubbish which stated that Delia wasn''t to blame for most of the "mistakes".......oh how I hate our Board!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Sports Desk - Pete"]

The version in the paper directs people to the web where 2,000 words can be published with no space constraints. It''s also across all three sites....

The original post from concerned scouse, which sparked the whole debate in the first place, appears in the paper in full.

[/quote]

Not quite, it appears to be missing the part about Huckerby, perhaps you guys can enlighten me. Is this a sore subject?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Sports Desk - Pete"]

The version in the paper directs people to the web where 2,000 words can be published with no space constraints. It''s also across all three sites....

The original post from concerned scouse, which sparked the whole debate in the first place, appears in the paper in full.

[/quote]

Not quite, it appears to be missing the part about Huckerby, perhaps you guys can enlighten me. Is this a sore subject?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I''m not sure that I agree with the fact that letting Malky go was a mistake - not fronting any money to find an adequate replacement was the mistake.Malky - as West Ham and Watford discovered, was nearing the end of his career. Yes we missed his presence as a leader but the same could be said for Iwan. The problem is that neither would have been able to provide the level of football required in the premiership on a game to game basis and you cant argue that either would have the same effect from the bench. Sure we could have kept them and used them when needed but the reality of the situation was and remains to be that since Iwan and Malky went we have paid host to a void of a natural leader. Infact I would also say that we never really replaced Holt either.You look back at that team and it hardly changed from the play off final of 2002 to promotion and for the most part remained injury free. When we gained promotion we had a team of aging players of whom many were passed their best and were not going to be up to the pace of the premiership. Ashton in the summer could have been all it took to keep us up but I would also suggest buying in a better defender too. Charlton was committed but not a brilliant centre back, Helveg was more than a huge disapointment.Over the years since there has simply been to much of a high turn over of players. There is no consistancy because we have not fielded a consistant team. When we have we have performed better. The run we had under Roeder was when we hardly changed the starting line up - you would have thought he would have figured that one out and done the same this season. Too much tinkering with loan players and the unfortunate injuries to Stefanovic and Kennedy also disrupted the team along with Russells suspensions.Its not hard to see, and many people say it, but the sides we have seen in recent years show glimpses of quality way beyond the team of 2002 until promotion but what they lack in buckets is the character, commitment and drive to achieve for themselves.My only hope is that whether we stay up or go down we can keep Lee because I think that with a bit of luck he will be what makes the difference - he seems to have that character, that never say die attitude.Out of the starting line up on Monday I can only see two or three players being here for certain next season. Semmy, Russell and Macdonald - that in itself should speak volumes. Had we been relegated with Iwan, Fleming and Malky they would have stayed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Roeder had a quite a bit of previous when it came to star players, just ask any West Ham fan about how he handled crowd favourite Paulo Di Canio at his time at West Ham.

The start of the end at Norwich for Glenn Roeder was the game versus Hull on 12th February 2008.

We had just come off the back off three victories (albeit fortunate ones) against decent sides and Roeder started tinkering with the team, He dropped Mo Camara, who had played solidly for a number of games, and gave Kieron Gibbs his debut against a big physical Hull team who snuffed him out. Huckerby was just returning from injury, having been a sub for two of these three games. He was sub that evening against Hull, with Gibbs playing in his position and at Leicester the next Saturday he did not feature at all in the match day sixteen with another Premiership loanee, James Henry starting.

City’s form dropped away after these two games and it was only after a 3-0 victory against QPR on the penultimate day of the season that safety was guaranteed. We were though, plating against ten men for 80 minutes and were assisted by some bizarre substitutions by the then QPR manager, Luigi Di Canio.

If we had gone to Hillsborough on the final day of the season needing to win, it is highly likely that we would already be playing in League One.

After the Leicester game, in the BBC Radio Norfolk radio phone-in show following the 0-4 defeat at Leicester, one of the callers, badgered Neil Adams, the show’s host, into admitting Huckerby would always be in his squad, if fit. Roeder took this as personal insult, and soon after, Adams informed that he was to be removed from his NCFC post as one of the youth team coaches. Adams was offered his job back at the start of the following season. In his time away from NCFC, I thought that Adams had become more critical of the side in his radio summarising, and my view was that Roeder thought it best to get him back in the NCFC fold.

Roeder further alienated Huckerby by refusing to say whether he would be offered an extension to his contract, and only informed him after the final game of the season that he would have to find another club. Dion Dublin however, who Roeder described as “real man” was subbed off to a standing ovation at Hillsborough. Huckerby was not afforded the same send off, and was more kicked out of the back door of Carrow Road. It appeared to be a decision of spite and nothing more.

In both the cases of Adams and Huckerby, the NCFC Board allowed Roeder to make decisions that were, in my opinion, patently wrong, and should have been more hands-on with Roeder.

In any football club, responsibility for the playing side is delegated to the manager, but in the case of these two cases, it was more of an abdication and a stronger Board would have intervened.

At the Capital Canaries AGM in August 2008, Chairman Roger Munby, when questioned about Huckerby admitted that the whole situation could have been “handled better”

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 Really good posts from Concerned_Scouse and Big Fella..Great and searching questions and brilliant answers.I wonder if the NCFC board and players will read those posts?I wonder if the NCFC board and players realise how badly the fans are hurting ,due to their failure to do their jobs?Are they,board and players, really giving their very best efforts to NCFC ? Big Fella finished by saying that the board hadn''t learnt anything in their time,I would also question whether  the NCFC board and players cared about how they are doing their jobs, or whether they care or even realise that the NCFC fans love their club.We are able to live and excuse failure,but apathy from the NCFC board and players is a hard pill to swallow

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
This has been the best thread I have ever read on this site - and Big Fellas post was exceptional. But am I the only one that is a little suspicious of Concerned Scouse''s provenance? I can''t believe that the Evening News published it as fact. Very clever Scouse!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Tim Allman"]

Roeder had a quite a bit of previous when it came to star players, just ask any West Ham fan about how he handled crowd favourite Paulo Di Canio at his time at West Ham.

The start of the end at Norwich for Glenn Roeder was the game versus Hull on 12th February 2008.

We had just come off the back off three victories (albeit fortunate ones) against decent sides and Roeder started tinkering with the team, He dropped Mo Camara, who had played solidly for a number of games, and gave Kieron Gibbs his debut against a big physical Hull team who snuffed him out. Huckerby was just returning from injury, having been a sub for two of these three games. He was sub that evening against Hull, with Gibbs playing in his position and at Leicester the next Saturday he did not feature at all in the match day sixteen with another Premiership loanee, James Henry starting.

City’s form dropped away after these two games and it was only after a 3-0 victory against QPR on the penultimate day of the season that safety was guaranteed. We were though, plating against ten men for 80 minutes and were assisted by some bizarre substitutions by the then QPR manager, Luigi Di Canio.

If we had gone to Hillsborough on the final day of the season needing to win, it is highly likely that we would already be playing in League One.

After the Leicester game, in the BBC Radio Norfolk radio phone-in show following the 0-4 defeat at Leicester, one of the callers, badgered Neil Adams, the show’s host, into admitting Huckerby would always be in his squad, if fit. Roeder took this as personal insult, and soon after, Adams informed that he was to be removed from his NCFC post as one of the youth team coaches. Adams was offered his job back at the start of the following season. In his time away from NCFC, I thought that Adams had become more critical of the side in his radio summarising, and my view was that Roeder thought it best to get him back in the NCFC fold.

Roeder further alienated Huckerby by refusing to say whether he would be offered an extension to his contract, and only informed him after the final game of the season that he would have to find another club. Dion Dublin however, who Roeder described as “real man” was subbed off to a standing ovation at Hillsborough. Huckerby was not afforded the same send off, and was more kicked out of the back door of Carrow Road. It appeared to be a decision of spite and nothing more.

In both the cases of Adams and Huckerby, the NCFC Board allowed Roeder to make decisions that were, in my opinion, patently wrong, and should have been more hands-on with Roeder.

In any football club, responsibility for the playing side is delegated to the manager, but in the case of these two cases, it was more of an abdication and a stronger Board would have intervened.

At the Capital Canaries AGM in August 2008, Chairman Roger Munby, when questioned about Huckerby admitted that the whole situation could have been “handled better”

 

[/quote]

I wouldnt treat anybody with this loyalty in that way, is this really how Huckerby ended his Norwich career. He turns down LFC to play in the championship out of loyalty to you guys, the fans, and this is how he was treated. I read somewhere that he was offered a place by a Premiership team and turned it down in case he had to play against you.

Im lost for words, its like turning your back on your best mate when he needs you most. No its worse than that, its like knifing your best friend in the back when he needs you most, im sorry but the words "board" and "cowardly" spring to mind.

Darren Huckerby, my apologies to you as a fan of exciting football for this cowardly act. Having had the chance to view these forums in detail today, then i can assure you that Canary fans see this as treachery. Any NCFC supporter who is apalled by this treachery and hasnt voiced their opinion, add your name here.

Alternatively if you want i can just f##k o#f,  its just that the more i read here, the more i feel for this proud club and the gutter she is now laying in.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
"After the Leicester game, in the BBC Radio Norfolk radio phone-in show

following the 0-4 defeat at Leicester, one of the callers, badgered

Neil Adams, the show’s host, into admitting Huckerby would always be in

his squad, if fit."
Badgered Neil Adams?  Utter tosh - Neil Adams had been continuously critical of Roeder, for not playing Huckerby nor him not being in the squad well before the Leicester match.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Personally I do not envy Liverpool, part of the big 4 Cartel, foreign owned, and mainly foreign players, I really miss those mid-week European Cup matches on the T.V, with L''pool overturning a 2-0 deficit in front of the Kop, with a basically British side, late 70''s early 80''s, I really supported ''our'' sides in Europe then, it was special, unlike now, just game after money-spinning game, and no real heart in the competition, and who can really identify with Chelsea, Arsenal, etc in terms of being british clubs. Why not let foreign players play for England, this is the next logical step?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="AndyJR"]"After the Leicester game, in the BBC Radio Norfolk radio phone-in show following the 0-4 defeat at Leicester, one of the callers, badgered Neil Adams, the show’s host, into admitting Huckerby would always be in his squad, if fit."

Badgered Neil Adams?  Utter tosh - Neil Adams had been continuously critical of Roeder, for not playing Huckerby nor him not being in the squad well before the Leicester match.
[/quote]

That''s how I recall the conversation on Radio Norfolk after the Leicester match, but as it was you who spoke to Neil Adams.of course you would know better what was said. I don''t often listen to Canary Call, so I can''t comment on other instances of the criticism.

Yes, Roeder had used three central midfielders and one wide player for some time, and Hucks sometimes missed out. I thought he was still struggling with his hip injury, and I don''t think was that he was 100% fit for a large number games that season, and only got back to full fitness towards the last few months, hence my comment.

I did speak at length with him about the injury, and the impression I gained from the conversation was that it was worse than he or the club let on.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="Tim Allman"]

[quote user="AndyJR"]"After the Leicester game, in the BBC Radio Norfolk radio phone-in show following the 0-4 defeat at Leicester, one of the callers, badgered Neil Adams, the show’s host, into admitting Huckerby would always be in his squad, if fit."Badgered Neil Adams?  Utter tosh - Neil Adams had been continuously critical of Roeder, for not playing Huckerby nor him not being in the squad well before the Leicester match.[/quote]

That''s how I recall the conversation on Radio Norfolk after the Leicester match, but as it was you who spoke to Neil Adams.of course you would know better what was said. I don''t often listen to Canary Call, so I can''t comment on other instances of the criticism.

Yes, Roeder had used three central midfielders and one wide player for some time, and Hucks sometimes missed out. I thought he was still struggling with his hip injury, and I don''t think was that he was 100% fit for a large number games that season, and only got back to full fitness towards the last few months, hence my comment.

I did speak at length with him about the injury, and the impression I gained from the conversation was that it was worse than he or the club let on.

 

[/quote]I don''t doubt the injury was worse than he let on - but Neil had been quite open with his view on Hucks for a large part of that season.  All rather academic now in any case.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks My fav other team is Liverpool and I love matches there, we have been badly let down by the board,with lack of funds available and money spent on stands and restaurants ect. bad manager appointments and bad signings.and no youth back up teams.we fans do not deserve this but the board think they know best and disregard the opinion of the true fans.Thanks for you article best wishes form a fan of a former club who had the world at their fingertips but blew it in a big way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Have to say I agree with every point bigfella made there.BUT, I plead that we don''t all overlook the roll of us, the fans, in this sad decline.The bottom line is that the vast majority of fans have swallowed every mistake this board have made without even the merest of question and have consistently flocked back for more servings of utter mediocrity.The fact that only 90 people voiced their anger on monday night, after this once great club wimpered towards the 3rd tier of English football, is another reason on the list.Perhaps this is due to the "family club"seeds planted by the board or a reflection of the way footballs gone on a whole I don''t know, but it can''t be denied. We must learn from this silence.Norwich City R.I.P 1902-2009

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
If Carlsberg did threads this would be it. Thanks to CS for starting it and for the excellent memories. I would sometimes go to Liverpool in the late 70''s and stand on the Kop. I liked the scouse wit as much as the flowing football. At the Norwich game, the last one with the standing Kop, didn''t you sing to us "You''re supposed to let us win"

Thanks also to the big fella whose response was excellent and it got me wondering. Clearly there is a problem with the board and one which needs addressing sooner rather than later. As you seem to present your points in a very calm and structured way, do you think you would be up for a meeting with the board, and by that I mean just the Suffolk two. Just on an informal basis, perhaps with another fan. I think maybe you could get the feelings of the fans over without the controlled atmosphere of a fans forum. Sorry If I have put you on the spot by suggesting this but I don''t think any of us want another season like the current one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[quote user="concerned-scouse"]

I wouldnt treat anybody with this loyalty in that way, is this really how Huckerby ended his Norwich career. He turns down LFC to play in the championship out of loyalty to you guys, the fans, and this is how he was treated. I read somewhere that he was offered a place by a Premiership team and turned it down in case he had to play against you.

Im lost for words, its like turning your back on your best mate when he needs you most. No its worse than that, its like knifing your best friend in the back when he needs you most, im sorry but the words "board" and "cowardly" spring to mind.

Darren Huckerby, my apologies to you as a fan of exciting football for this cowardly act. Having had the chance to view these forums in detail today, then i can assure you that Canary fans see this as treachery. Any NCFC supporter who is apalled by this treachery and hasnt voiced their opinion, add your name here.

Alternatively if you want i can just f##k o#f,  its just that the more i read here, the more i feel for this proud club and the gutter she is now laying in.

[/quote]

It was just appalling, for all the reasons you''ve given. No doubt, the club would argue that Roeder was the manager, and they couldn''t interfere; but what happened was one in the eye for those who defend the board and club on the grounds of always "doing things the right way". Not in Huckerby''s case we didn''t! Darren is so loyal, incidentally, that he refused to join any other club playing in Norwich''s division, and has been spotted in the stands at a number of games at CR since. If we go down, I assume there''s no chance of him returning - but I''d take him back in a heartbeat!

Meanwhile fella, the more posts you write on here, the more I can feel you turning. Are Liverpool about to lose a fan to a League One club? Come on over to the light side! ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Norwich ''R'' Us: I unhappily agree. You see, I don''t think there was anything ground breaking about what I wrote at all. Most of it was common sense and common knowledge, and has been discussed on various messageboards for years. It bewilders me that so many can''t see what''s right in front of them (or alternatively, are scared of seeing it, because of what it''d mean about their beloved owner); and even more that they''re still sleepwalking on even as we head into the third flight by thinking the appointment of a novice as manager would be a good idea. If we go down, not much will happen: many will just shrug their shoulders, hope or assume for better next season, and on we will drift.

12 years ago, I watched City play abysmally and be humiliated in the League Cup by lowly Barnet. This was less than four years after Munich and Milan, and would''ve been unthinkable only a couple of years earlier. Yet was their fury on the terraces? Not really. A few cries of "sort it out, Walker!", and that was it. As I walked away from Underhill, one old chap turned to another and said "ah well - things can only get better!" I couldn''t help but laugh: what, I wondered, would it take to actually anger the fans of this club? Especially when you consider the opprobrium which was always aimed in Robert Chase''s direction even when we were flying high in the Premier League. It''s as though Delia and the club post-Chase can do no wrong in the eyes of many.

I just don''t understand it. In that sense, you could argue that the board understand their public perfectly - and attendances have remained so high (light years ahead of what they were when we were challenging for the Premier League title and in Europe) because there is a weird symbiosis between fans and board. It''s not true of many on here, but clearly is within the wider fanbase - and at some point, loyalty ceases to be loyalty and becomes, I''m afraid, delusion and stupidity.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[quote user="waggers"]If Carlsberg did threads this would be it. Thanks to CS for starting it and for the excellent memories. I would sometimes go to Liverpool in the late 70''s and stand on the Kop. I liked the scouse wit as much as the flowing football. At the Norwich game, the last one with the standing Kop, didn''t you sing to us "You''re supposed to let us win" Thanks also to the big fella whose response was excellent and it got me wondering. Clearly there is a problem with the board and one which needs addressing sooner rather than later. As you seem to present your points in a very calm and structured way, do you think you would be up for a meeting with the board, and by that I mean just the Suffolk two. Just on an informal basis, perhaps with another fan. I think maybe you could get the feelings of the fans over without the controlled atmosphere of a fans forum. Sorry If I have put you on the spot by suggesting this but I don''t think any of us want another season like the current one.[/quote]

Sure: I''d be more than happy to meet them. I hardly hate them or anything like that: I just view them as well meaning amateurs wholly out of their depth. If I and another fan did meet them though, there''d have to be a couple of conditions: I should be able to ask searching, difficult questions without being fobbed off or Delia getting angry (as I''ve heard she''s done in the past when put on the spot), and I''d want to report everything said at any meeting back to the wider fanbase. Secrecy and elite fans'' groups are not for me: they create divisiveness and resentment at a time the fans need to act together. Unfortunately, I suspect my second condition would prevent any meeting from taking place - but that''s up to the club. Not me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...