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Hillsborough, 20 years on

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[quote user="Say Hello To The Angels"][quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"]

My point surrounding Hillsborough wasn''t about hooliganism ,it is about the culture of Liverpool fans throughout their history and leading up even to the present day and of recent European cup finals of "It doesn''t matter if we don''t have tickets - we''ll get in somehow !"-even to the extent of forging tickets!. Well actually is does matter, at best you are denying fellow fans entry into the stadium who have tickets -at worst you are putting people lives in danger -as was displayed in the stampedes in Athens a couple of years ago.

  As I said before it infuriates me that of all clubs - 20 years on this set of fans are still doing the same things -and still trying to find other people to blame.

I will never forgive or forget Liverpool for denying us the chance to play regular European football during th most succesful period f our history, but worst of all, it appears as if it counted for nothing as they haven''t learnt any of those lessons.

[/quote]

Be thankful the worst you had to endure was not seeing us play in Europe many people''s sons, daughters, and husbands didn''t come home from a football match 20 years ago today. I think you''ll cope.

There are dozens of clubs in this country who''ve had a troubled past with hooliganism and many still retain elements. Liverpool are not on their own. We ourselves have just seen city fans sent to jail for throwing bricks at people. We must all work to rid football of the last elements of hooliganism.

[/quote]

Well actually Liverpool are ''on their'' own in this sense, in as much as they are the only club with their particular recent history of disasters - yet, as I mentioned before still continue to do the same things,turn up in their thousands without tickets, steal tickets off fellow fans,trample and stampede their way through turnstiles. As we saw recently in Africa in the Ivory Coast how this can still happen today. You might have thought that with their history Liverpool might have learnt -sadly not.

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Liverpool supporters demanding justice - they have a cheek! they were responsible for the deaths.It would be a bit like driving after 15 pints, killing Innocent pedestrians and demanding justice because the police didn''t stop you  getting in your car!

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[quote user="John Boubepo"]Liverpool supporters demanding justice - they have a cheek! they were responsible for the deaths.It would be a bit like driving after 15 pints, killing Innocent pedestrians and demanding justice because the police didn''t stop you  getting in your car![/quote]The Taylor report blamed the disaster on a lack of control by the police, as did the clubs involved, most of the fans who were there, and virtually every single media organisation at the scene. Except The Sun and even they have issued an official apology saying they were wrong. But then i guess you know better.

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[quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"][quote user="Say Hello To The Angels"][quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"]

My point surrounding Hillsborough wasn''t about hooliganism ,it is about the culture of Liverpool fans throughout their history and leading up even to the present day and of recent European cup finals of "It doesn''t matter if we don''t have tickets - we''ll get in somehow !"-even to the extent of forging tickets!. Well actually is does matter, at best you are denying fellow fans entry into the stadium who have tickets -at worst you are putting people lives in danger -as was displayed in the stampedes in Athens a couple of years ago.

  As I said before it infuriates me that of all clubs - 20 years on this set of fans are still doing the same things -and still trying to find other people to blame.

I will never forgive or forget Liverpool for denying us the chance to play regular European football during th most succesful period f our history, but worst of all, it appears as if it counted for nothing as they haven''t learnt any of those lessons.

[/quote]Be thankful the worst you had to endure was not seeing us play in Europe many people''s sons, daughters, and husbands didn''t come home from a football match 20 years ago today. I think you''ll cope. There are dozens of clubs in this country who''ve had a troubled past with hooliganism and many still retain elements. Liverpool are not on their own. We ourselves have just seen city fans sent to jail for throwing bricks at people. We must all work to rid football of the last elements of hooliganism.[/quote]

Well actually Liverpool are ''on their'' own in this sense, in as much as they are the only club with their particular recent history of disasters - yet, as I mentioned before still continue to do the same things,turn up in their thousands without tickets, steal tickets off fellow fans,trample and stampede their way through turnstiles. As we saw recently in Africa in the Ivory Coast how this can still happen today. You might have thought that with their history Liverpool might have learnt -sadly not.

[/quote]What a minority of idiots do is in no way representative of the vast majority of Liverpool fans. Some Norwich idiots threw bricks at Leicester fans, by your logic we are both football hooligans now.

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[quote user="Say Hello To The Angels"][quote user="shyster"]I''m not joking.[/quote]Then you are a moron.Also i think your a bit confused it''s us Norfolk folk that are inbred, or so the jokes go.....[/quote]

Nay, you are the moron, and possibly an inbred one at that. Of course it was a tragic day and lives were needlessly lost, but do you seriously believe that twenty years on Liverpool fans would give a flying f*ck or dedicate a thread on their forum if it had been Norwich fans who perished that day? And if they did you can be certain that it''d contain derisory remarks all over it.

You''re feeling so strongly about it now because you''re being force fed by the media, and the Liverpool fans are simply riding on the ''compensation age'' express.

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[quote user="Say Hello To The Angels"][quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"][quote user="Say Hello To The Angels"][quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"]

My point surrounding Hillsborough wasn''t about hooliganism ,it is about the culture of Liverpool fans throughout their history and leading up even to the present day and of recent European cup finals of "It doesn''t matter if we don''t have tickets - we''ll get in somehow !"-even to the extent of forging tickets!. Well actually is does matter, at best you are denying fellow fans entry into the stadium who have tickets -at worst you are putting people lives in danger -as was displayed in the stampedes in Athens a couple of years ago.

  As I said before it infuriates me that of all clubs - 20 years on this set of fans are still doing the same things -and still trying to find other people to blame.

I will never forgive or forget Liverpool for denying us the chance to play regular European football during th most succesful period f our history, but worst of all, it appears as if it counted for nothing as they haven''t learnt any of those lessons.

[/quote]

Be thankful the worst you had to endure was not seeing us play in Europe many people''s sons, daughters, and husbands didn''t come home from a football match 20 years ago today. I think you''ll cope.

There are dozens of clubs in this country who''ve had a troubled past with hooliganism and many still retain elements. Liverpool are not on their own. We ourselves have just seen city fans sent to jail for throwing bricks at people. We must all work to rid football of the last elements of hooliganism.

[/quote]

Well actually Liverpool are ''on their'' own in this sense, in as much as they are the only club with their particular recent history of disasters - yet, as I mentioned before still continue to do the same things,turn up in their thousands without tickets, steal tickets off fellow fans,trample and stampede their way through turnstiles. As we saw recently in Africa in the Ivory Coast how this can still happen today. You might have thought that with their history Liverpool might have learnt -sadly not.

[/quote]

What a minority of idiots do is in no way representative of the vast majority of Liverpool fans. Some Norwich idiots threw bricks at Leicester fans, by your logic we are both football hooligans now.
[/quote]

You may well be right there however the funny thing is those ''vast majority'' of Liverpool fans would still rather try to blame anyone else -police,stewards before they blame their own ''minority'', even as recently as Athens let alone Hillsborough !!! -maybe its about time they looked closer to home.

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[quote user="shyster"][quote user="Say Hello To The Angels"][quote user="shyster"]I''m not joking.[/quote]Then you are a moron.Also i think your a bit confused it''s us Norfolk folk that are inbred, or so the jokes go.....[/quote]

Nay, you are the moron, and possibly an inbred one at that. Of course it was a tragic day and lives were needlessly lost, but do you seriously believe that twenty years on Liverpool fans would give a flying f*ck or dedicate a thread on their forum if it had been Norwich fans who perished that day? And if they did you can be certain that it''d contain derisory remarks all over it.

You''re feeling so strongly about it now because you''re being force fed by the media, and the Liverpool fans are simply riding on the ''compensation age'' express.[/quote]I''m feeling strongly about it now because i have a soul and a heart, your stance is indefensible you don''t care that 96 people were crushed to death.I seriously doubt anyone who was caught up in the crush or lost a loved one gives a f**k about media coverage. There were 25,000 people inside Anfield today, please explain how you are able to define them as one? It''s a diverse planet we live on people tend to be different from one another, scoucers are not all thieves, the Scottish are not all tight and the Irish are not all drunks, those my friend are called sterotypes.   

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I have to confess that before the past few weeks in the lead up today - I wasnt aware of what had happened on that fateful day 20 years ago.After reading the posts on this thread and from speaking to various Liverpool supporting friends that I have (some had family at the match in question) I am completely clued up from what happened.It is my opinion that Liverpool fans are in no way what-so-ever to blame  for the tragedy. Were there not previous crushings of football supporters at the ground before the 15th of April 1989? Cup finals were banned from Hillsboro'' because of the lack of safety to the visiting fans? Before people start blaming Liverpool fans for the tragedy take what happened previously at Hillsboro'' and then think about it. The only good to have come from the terrible day twenty years ago is that we now have all seater stadia here in England. We dont want another horrendous day that the Liverpool fans (and people all around all the world) are thinking about today do we? I also didnt realise that had it been for the drawing of the balls coming out differently it could have been Norwich City fans at the ground as well. I guess we were lucky.... there were 96 fans who werent- please dont be-smirch the memories of those people by blaming Liverpool fans.  For what its worth I think the families were wonderful today who attended the event at Anfield, losing a loved one is never ever easy and even after 20 years it wont have gotten any easier.  YNWA

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[quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"][quote user="Say Hello To The Angels"][quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"][quote user="Say Hello To The Angels"][quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"]

My point surrounding Hillsborough wasn''t about hooliganism ,it is about the culture of Liverpool fans throughout their history and leading up even to the present day and of recent European cup finals of "It doesn''t matter if we don''t have tickets - we''ll get in somehow !"-even to the extent of forging tickets!. Well actually is does matter, at best you are denying fellow fans entry into the stadium who have tickets -at worst you are putting people lives in danger -as was displayed in the stampedes in Athens a couple of years ago.

  As I said before it infuriates me that of all clubs - 20 years on this set of fans are still doing the same things -and still trying to find other people to blame.

I will never forgive or forget Liverpool for denying us the chance to play regular European football during th most succesful period f our history, but worst of all, it appears as if it counted for nothing as they haven''t learnt any of those lessons.

[/quote]Be thankful the worst you had to endure was not seeing us play in Europe many people''s sons, daughters, and husbands didn''t come home from a football match 20 years ago today. I think you''ll cope. There are dozens of clubs in this country who''ve had a troubled past with hooliganism and many still retain elements. Liverpool are not on their own. We ourselves have just seen city fans sent to jail for throwing bricks at people. We must all work to rid football of the last elements of hooliganism.[/quote]

Well actually Liverpool are ''on their'' own in this sense, in as much as they are the only club with their particular recent history of disasters - yet, as I mentioned before still continue to do the same things,turn up in their thousands without tickets, steal tickets off fellow fans,trample and stampede their way through turnstiles. As we saw recently in Africa in the Ivory Coast how this can still happen today. You might have thought that with their history Liverpool might have learnt -sadly not.

[/quote]What a minority of idiots do is in no way representative of the vast majority of Liverpool fans. Some Norwich idiots threw bricks at Leicester fans, by your logic we are both football hooligans now.[/quote]

You may well be right there however the funny thing is those ''vast majority'' of Liverpool fans would still rather try to blame anyone else -police,stewards before they blame their own ''minority'', even as recently as Athens let alone Hillsborough !!! -maybe its about time they looked closer to home.

[/quote]Look i don''t know anything about Athens or the current hooliganism problems Liverpool FC face. What I do know is if the police did their job on April 15th 1989, 96 people would still be alive today. That isn''t opinion it''s fact. Perhaps if the Liverpool fans got the justice they deserve for Hillsbourgh and are able to have closure and move on they might feel more able to look at the problems caused by some of their ''fans''.

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[quote user="Say Hello To The Angels"][quote user="shyster"][quote user="Say Hello To The Angels"][quote user="shyster"]I''m not joking.[/quote]Then you are a moron.Also i think your a bit confused it''s us Norfolk folk that are inbred, or so the jokes go.....[/quote]

Nay, you are the moron, and possibly an inbred one at that. Of course it was a tragic day and lives were needlessly lost, but do you seriously believe that twenty years on Liverpool fans would give a flying f*ck or dedicate a thread on their forum if it had been Norwich fans who perished that day? And if they did you can be certain that it''d contain derisory remarks all over it.

You''re feeling so strongly about it now because you''re being force fed by the media, and the Liverpool fans are simply riding on the ''compensation age'' express.[/quote]I''m feeling strongly about it now because i have a soul and a heart, your stance is indefensible you don''t care that 96 people were crushed to death.I seriously doubt anyone who was caught up in the crush or lost a loved one gives a f**k about media coverage. There were 25,000 people inside Anfield today, please explain how you are able to define them as one? It''s a diverse planet we live on people tend to be different from one another, scoucers are not all thieves, the Scottish are not all tight and the Irish are not all drunks, those my friend are called sterotypes.    [/quote]

You obviously failed to read my Bradford City related post back in this thread. I''m not some soulless bastard who doesn''t give a fig about human tragedy - I''m simply a provider of fact.

ps - It''s ''scousers'' by the way.

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[quote user="shyster"][quote user="Say Hello To The Angels"][quote user="shyster"][quote user="Say Hello To The Angels"][quote user="shyster"]I''m not joking.[/quote]Then you are a moron.Also i think your a bit confused it''s us Norfolk folk that are inbred, or so the jokes go.....[/quote]

Nay, you are the moron, and possibly an inbred one at that. Of course it was a tragic day and lives were needlessly lost, but do you seriously believe that twenty years on Liverpool fans would give a flying f*ck or dedicate a thread on their forum if it had been Norwich fans who perished that day? And if they did you can be certain that it''d contain derisory remarks all over it.

You''re feeling so strongly about it now because you''re being force fed by the media, and the Liverpool fans are simply riding on the ''compensation age'' express.[/quote]I''m feeling strongly about it now because i have a soul and a heart, your stance is indefensible you don''t care that 96 people were crushed to death.I seriously doubt anyone who was caught up in the crush or lost a loved one gives a f**k about media coverage. There were 25,000 people inside Anfield today, please explain how you are able to define them as one? It''s a diverse planet we live on people tend to be different from one another, scoucers are not all thieves, the Scottish are not all tight and the Irish are not all drunks, those my friend are called sterotypes.    [/quote]

You obviously failed to read my Bradford City related post back in this thread. I''m not some soulless bastard who doesn''t give a fig about human tragedy - I''m simply a provider of fact.

ps - It''s ''scousers'' by the way.[/quote]Yes I replied to it in general agreement.The media does have a bias towards certain events/teams etc this is not right, however this is not Liverpool fans fault.Let me just recount some of the ''facts'' you have bestowed upon us. 1. Liverpool fans steal from their own players to fund drink & drug addictions2. Doing so is also the only way they can get season tickets3. They all sleep with their sisters or at least try to4. You have revealed that I am an inbred moron 5. People are only upset about 96 people being crushed do death because the media hype it upChrist you certainly are wise, i stand corrected!P.S Appreciate the spelling correction

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[quote user="Say Hello To The Angels"][quote user="shyster"][quote user="Say Hello To The Angels"][quote user="shyster"][quote user="Say Hello To The Angels"][quote user="shyster"]I''m not joking.[/quote]Then you are a moron.Also i think your a bit confused it''s us Norfolk folk that are inbred, or so the jokes go.....[/quote]

Nay, you are the moron, and possibly an inbred one at that. Of course it was a tragic day and lives were needlessly lost, but do you seriously believe that twenty years on Liverpool fans would give a flying f*ck or dedicate a thread on their forum if it had been Norwich fans who perished that day? And if they did you can be certain that it''d contain derisory remarks all over it.

You''re feeling so strongly about it now because you''re being force fed by the media, and the Liverpool fans are simply riding on the ''compensation age'' express.[/quote]I''m feeling strongly about it now because i have a soul and a heart, your stance is indefensible you don''t care that 96 people were crushed to death.I seriously doubt anyone who was caught up in the crush or lost a loved one gives a f**k about media coverage. There were 25,000 people inside Anfield today, please explain how you are able to define them as one? It''s a diverse planet we live on people tend to be different from one another, scoucers are not all thieves, the Scottish are not all tight and the Irish are not all drunks, those my friend are called sterotypes.    [/quote]

You obviously failed to read my Bradford City related post back in this thread. I''m not some soulless bastard who doesn''t give a fig about human tragedy - I''m simply a provider of fact.

ps - It''s ''scousers'' by the way.[/quote]Yes I replied to it in general agreement.The media does have a bias towards certain events/teams etc this is not right, however this is not Liverpool fans fault.Let me just recount some of the ''facts'' you have bestowed upon us. 1. Liverpool fans steal from their own players to fund drink & drug addictions2. Doing so is also the only way they can get season tickets3. They all sleep with their sisters or at least try to4. You have revealed that I am an inbred moron 5. People are only upset about 96 people being crushed do death because the media hype it upChrist you certainly are wise, i stand corrected!P.S Appreciate the spelling correction

[/quote]

Okay, I''ll hand this to you: I''m merely speaking in minority terms here - but you must at least admit, where the latter is concerned in Liverpool we''re dealing with at least three-quarters of the population of Norwich.That''s a hell of lot of scum.

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I cannot see where the fault lay solely with the police, at the time on the news it was showing large crowds turning up late and images of the police on horse back actually lifting people onto the horses due to the crushing at the turnstiles, so how can it be just the fault of the police, the gates were opened to stop the crushing outside of the ground. So was it the police''s fault for the mad rush to get in. I do believe that the supporters had a part to blame also. Although a sad thing to happen to any club supporters, if it had not of happened inside the ground, it would have happened outside due to the large crowds turning up late.

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[quote user="CT "]I have to confess that before the past few weeks in the lead up today - I wasnt aware of what had happened on that fateful day 20 years ago.After reading the posts on this thread and from speaking to various Liverpool supporting friends that I have (some had family at the match in question) I am completely clued up from what happened.It is my opinion that Liverpool fans are in no way what-so-ever to blame  for the tragedy. Were there not previous crushings of football supporters at the ground before the 15th of April 1989? Cup finals were banned from Hillsboro'' because of the lack of safety to the visiting fans? Before people start blaming Liverpool fans for the tragedy take what happened previously at Hillsboro'' and then think about it. The only good to have come from the terrible day twenty years ago is that we now have all seater stadia here in England. We dont want another horrendous day that the Liverpool fans (and people all around all the world) are thinking about today do we? I also didnt realise that had it been for the drawing of the balls coming out differently it could have been Norwich City fans at the ground as well. I guess we were lucky.... there were 96 fans who werent- please dont be-smirch the memories of those people by blaming Liverpool fans.  For what its worth I think the families were wonderful today who attended the event at Anfield, losing a loved one is never ever easy and even after 20 years it wont have gotten any easier.  YNWA[/quote]

CT''s best ever post. You''ve gone up in my estimations.

The liverpool fans weren''t to blame, and neither were the police 100%. Those blaming the police for opening gate c haven''t got a leg to stand on, because, 1. They had to do it because people were going to die outside, and 2. They had to make a decision and fast, because they couldn''t just stand there and let people die could they?

The fault of the police begins to come in when we get to the fact that nobody was barricading/blocking off the two central pens that were both full, thus ushering the fans into the two empty end pens. The fact that this would''ve happened in a normal case of over-congestion makes it more and more hard to understand why this didn''t happen.

You can''t blame the Liverpool fans for turning up drunk, as football fans all over the country years before and after the accident turn up drunk. Back in those days where hooliganism was at it''s worst. it was nigh on the norm for fans to turn up drunk.

Let''s not forget the SY Police lied regarding the opening of the gates. They tried to fob it off by saying that fans forced the gate. Ambulances were banned from entering the pitch because of crowd trouble and fighting. What trouble? not one single account has confirmed that fans were fighting. If all the ambulances would''ve been granted access to the pitch then I''m confident that lives would''ve been saved. Police also didn''t allow fans to carry the injured to ambulances because they were behind the forest stand. someone attacking someone who was carrying an injured body to safety is minimal in my opinion, and again could''ve saved lives even if it was just the one. That''s one family that wouldn''t be grieving.

Don''t even get me started on that scumbag McKenzie...

The most annoying fact about the whole thing is that it was easily avoidable.

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[quote user="Say Hello To The Angels"][quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"][quote user="jas the barclay king"]

Those who make jokes about Hillsboro bneed to remember 1 thing and 1 thing alone... that one ball Earlier in the draw for the Semi Final was Norwich City...

It could of been your son, your brother, or even you.....

thank lady luck and fate it wasn''t.

jas :)

[/quote]

Not sure that I could completely agree with this, the fact that it was Liverpool wasn''t a coincidence, remember that it was their fans who only 4 years prior to this killed 39 Juventus fans at Heysel, many of which were charged with manslaughter. We don''t see Liverpool having 10 and 20 year memorials for that, instead they sweep this under the carpet and refuse to accept responsibility for it, yet cannot accept that their own fans had a part to play in what happened at Hillsborough and want to find others to blame.

The worst thing is that after all these years, of all sets of fans with their history they STILL don''t appear to have learnt their lesson with other cases of fans turning up without tickets and stampeding at both Instanbul and Athens.

[/quote]

Sorry but that is not right, it is well established that the fault lies with the policing of the match and has nothing to do with hooliganism, the actions Liverpool fans in the aftermath of the disaster saved many lives. Their behavior was impeccable. To suggest otherwise especially on a day like today is at best ill informed and at worst disgusting.

Hooliganism was rife in the 80''s and was not confined to Liverpool fans, you may well be correct about Heysel but that is not what todays about!

   
[/quote]

I''m sorry i don''t agree. Hillsborough was an absolute tragedy but was down to a whole host of factors including the fact that many Liverpool fans turned up late and without tickets and tried to get into the ground for free. amnyone who went to football around the time will tell you Liverpool fans 9probably more so than any other set of fans) were reknowned for doing this at the time and almost prided themsleves on blagging their way into games free all over Europe.

Many people have said above "there but for the grace of god" or words to that effect but i genuinely do not believe the same would have happened had norwich been in that semi and had that terrace because our fans generally did not, and do not, behave like that in such numbers. As has been pointed out above they even tried the same trick at the European Cup Final in Instanbul recently - talk about not learning your lesson!

Hillsborough was due to the unfortunate coming together of a number of factors. yes the police panicked and screwed up. yes the ground was arguably not fit for purpose. however the total and utter refusal of Liverpool fans to even acknowledge that the behaviour of some of their fans was in any way a factor beggars belief and i really don''t understand what they want in terms of "justice for the 96?" What do they want? Compensation? Someone''s head on a stick? will it really make things better for anyone to have a public scapegoat? I know its easy for us to say as we did not lose family members and I fully understand why, in situations like this, people look for explanations and people to blame but i really don''t see what would be served by a further inquiry for something that happened 20 years ago and i hope the Government are not going to buckle on this one and spend a fortune on such an inquiry.

 

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I understand this is a very hot and emotive subject but these are my thoughts as one of the many fans at the other Semi Final:

  • I believe the media have over hyped this 20 years on and that here are far more terrible events that have happened and are happening around the world much more worthy of remebrence on this scale
  • I truly feel for those who lost thier lives and the families left behind and for them think it is right to remember with this type of event.
  • I am glad things were learnt from this
  • I certainly do not blame the police and while their decision contributed to events they had little choice, they did what they thought was right at the time
  • Ultimetly if the Liverpool fans had not turned up without tickets and caused such havoc this would not have happened. They do need to take resposability too.  All the other events that happened, right or wrong, were a result of their actions and their actions alone. 

OTBC

 

St.John

 

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[quote user="Jim Smith"][quote user="Say Hello To The Angels"][quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"][quote user="jas the barclay king"]

Those who make jokes about Hillsboro bneed to remember 1 thing and 1 thing alone... that one ball Earlier in the draw for the Semi Final was Norwich City...

It could of been your son, your brother, or even you.....

thank lady luck and fate it wasn''t.

jas :)

[/quote]

Not sure that I could completely agree with this, the fact that it was Liverpool wasn''t a coincidence, remember that it was their fans who only 4 years prior to this killed 39 Juventus fans at Heysel, many of which were charged with manslaughter. We don''t see Liverpool having 10 and 20 year memorials for that, instead they sweep this under the carpet and refuse to accept responsibility for it, yet cannot accept that their own fans had a part to play in what happened at Hillsborough and want to find others to blame.

The worst thing is that after all these years, of all sets of fans with their history they STILL don''t appear to have learnt their lesson with other cases of fans turning up without tickets and stampeding at both Instanbul and Athens.

[/quote]

Sorry but that is not right, it is well established that the fault lies with the policing of the match and has nothing to do with hooliganism, the actions Liverpool fans in the aftermath of the disaster saved many lives. Their behavior was impeccable. To suggest otherwise especially on a day like today is at best ill informed and at worst disgusting.

Hooliganism was rife in the 80''s and was not confined to Liverpool fans, you may well be correct about Heysel but that is not what todays about!

   
[/quote]

I''m sorry i don''t agree. Hillsborough was an absolute tragedy but was down to a whole host of factors including the fact that many Liverpool fans turned up late and without tickets and tried to get into the ground for free. amnyone who went to football around the time will tell you Liverpool fans 9probably more so than any other set of fans) were reknowned for doing this at the time and almost prided themsleves on blagging their way into games free all over Europe.

Many people have said above "there but for the grace of god" or words to that effect but i genuinely do not believe the same would have happened had norwich been in that semi and had that terrace because our fans generally did not, and do not, behave like that in such numbers. As has been pointed out above they even tried the same trick at the European Cup Final in Instanbul recently - talk about not learning your lesson!

Hillsborough was due to the unfortunate coming together of a number of factors. yes the police panicked and screwed up. yes the ground was arguably not fit for purpose. however the total and utter refusal of Liverpool fans to even acknowledge that the behaviour of some of their fans was in any way a factor beggars belief and i really don''t understand what they want in terms of "justice for the 96?" What do they want? Compensation? Someone''s head on a stick? will it really make things better for anyone to have a public scapegoat? I know its easy for us to say as we did not lose family members and I fully understand why, in situations like this, people look for explanations and people to blame but i really don''t see what would be served by a further inquiry for something that happened 20 years ago and i hope the Government are not going to buckle on this one and spend a fortune on such an inquiry.

 

[/quote]

 

I agree with the above for what it is worth

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FWIW I fully agree with Jim Smith''s post but especially the last paragraph. The 96 were undoubtedly the innocents, and for me the call for justice is more a plea for a proper explanation. However, when it is suggested that some Liverpool fans bear a partial responsibility, the vilification begins.

With regard to the "There but for the grace of God" comment I made was relevant only to my own experiences, mainly at Upton Park (in the quarter final that year where you literally couldn''t move) but also towards the back of the Holte End at Villa Park in our semi final.. 

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[quote user="Hissing Sid"]

FWIW I fully agree with Jim Smith''s post but especially the last paragraph. The 96 were undoubtedly the innocents, and for me the call for justice is more a plea for a proper explanation. However, when it is suggested that some Liverpool fans bear a partial responsibility, the vilification begins.

With regard to the "There but for the grace of God" comment I made was relevant only to my own experiences, mainly at Upton Park (in the quarter final that year where you literally couldn''t move) but also towards the back of the Holte End at Villa Park in our semi final.. 

[/quote]

 

Mate - i know what you mean and I wasn''t really referring to that specific comment but more the comments that had the semi final draw been different we could have been the victims of the Hillsborough disaster. I think those of us who''ve been going a few years can all look back at instances where we''ve been on a terrace or in a stand where its been overcrowded and we''ve felt a bit unsafe. Hell i would even say the refreshment areas at watford are bordering on that sort of level!

The improvement of grounds, removal of fences and better control of people entering stadiums were all essential improvements to come out of this tragedy. That said i don''t agree that all standing areas are inherently unsafe and would like to see the return of safe standing. For axample with the turnstyles we have and lack of fances an area of the Barclay lower tier could easily be converted to a safe standing area and IMHO there would be no risk of any Hillsborough type situation occuring as you can control the numbers entering the stand.

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Have to agree with you BGG&YPOS

Football fans in general enjoy the build up to a game as much as the game itself which often involves having a few drinks pre-match. There must be many people on here can honestly say that they haven''t squeezed another pint in and then had to hurry down to the ground so as not to miss the kick-off ? I''ve done it many times and in the days of terracing it could sometimes be a bit scary being jostled into the ground, particularly at away matches.

I was at Villa Park that Saturday, 15 April. It was a glorious sunny day there, the mood was good. I was in the Main Stand but away to my right I remember thinking how the Holte End terrace - which was divided between the two sets of fans- was looking a bit full ( In fact at the end of the match there was a swaying skirmish between the rival fans which started to ripple down the terrace but thankfully order was restored )

Imagine the scene at Hillsborough - warm sunny day, the beer''s flowing, KO approaches. Fans leave it late draining that last pint and arrive in a big mass down those narrow hilly streets around the ground which were already heaving with supporters who hadn''t been near a pub . Chaos.

Yes, it was a mistake that Gate C was opened but it was done with the intention of easing the crush outside. Fatally the surge down the central tunnel at the Leppings Lane End coupled with the fact that there was no immediate escape onto the pitch led to the dreadful disaster.( After our 1992 Semi Final at Hillsborough I walked through that tunnel and it sent a shiver down my spine )

So yes mistakes were made that day, but for those on here who bang away on here about the good old days of terracing should remember that they weren''t always good.

 

 

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Yes, I was at Upton Park for the 1/4 inal and Villa Park for the semi. I certainly remember Upton Park being a complete squash but never for a minute thought any harm could come to anyone. Like I said earlier, the Barclay was always a squash and my mate & I were only 14 to 16 over those years and never really appreciated any danger. Of course, amplify the Barclay "Pen" to Hillsborough and it becomes clear that there was always that danger. I don''t think that true crwod control was ever considered back then. Surely some blame lays there. They could have even cordoned the surrounding area off for ticket holders only but hindsight is a wonderful thing.

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[quote user="shyster"][quote user="Say Hello To The Angels"][quote user="shyster"][quote user="Say Hello To The Angels"][quote user="shyster"][quote user="Say Hello To The Angels"][quote user="shyster"]I''m not joking.[/quote]Then you are a moron.Also i think your a bit confused it''s us Norfolk folk that are inbred, or so the jokes go.....[/quote]

Nay, you are the moron, and possibly an inbred one at that. Of course it was a tragic day and lives were needlessly lost, but do you seriously believe that twenty years on Liverpool fans would give a flying f*ck or dedicate a thread on their forum if it had been Norwich fans who perished that day? And if they did you can be certain that it''d contain derisory remarks all over it.

You''re feeling so strongly about it now because you''re being force fed by the media, and the Liverpool fans are simply riding on the ''compensation age'' express.[/quote]I''m feeling strongly about it now because i have a soul and a heart, your stance is indefensible you don''t care that 96 people were crushed to death.I seriously doubt anyone who was caught up in the crush or lost a loved one gives a f**k about media coverage. There were 25,000 people inside Anfield today, please explain how you are able to define them as one? It''s a diverse planet we live on people tend to be different from one another, scoucers are not all thieves, the Scottish are not all tight and the Irish are not all drunks, those my friend are called sterotypes.    [/quote]

You obviously failed to read my Bradford City related post back in this thread. I''m not some soulless bastard who doesn''t give a fig about human tragedy - I''m simply a provider of fact.

ps - It''s ''scousers'' by the way.[/quote]Yes I replied to it in general agreement.The media does have a bias towards certain events/teams etc this is not right, however this is not Liverpool fans fault.Let me just recount some of the ''facts'' you have bestowed upon us. 1. Liverpool fans steal from their own players to fund drink & drug addictions2. Doing so is also the only way they can get season tickets3. They all sleep with their sisters or at least try to4. You have revealed that I am an inbred moron 5. People are only upset about 96 people being crushed do death because the media hype it upChrist you certainly are wise, i stand corrected!P.S Appreciate the spelling correction

[/quote]

Okay, I''ll hand this to you: I''m merely speaking in minority terms here - but you must at least admit, where the latter is concerned in Liverpool we''re dealing with at least three-quarters of the population of Norwich.That''s a hell of lot of scum.[/quote]My ex was a scouser (Everton fan though), so i''ve spent a fair amount of time in Liverpool and i have to say the city is fantastic, i always felt safe and the people are the most friendly, decent people iv''e ever come accross anywhere in the UK. Do you have experiences that lead you to think otherwise?We have our own scum you know? I have to walk past groups of drunks & smack heads along magdalen street on a daily basis.

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[quote user="Croft Has Fcuked Up A Cross Again"][quote user="CT "]I have to confess that before the past few weeks in the lead up today - I wasnt aware of what had happened on that fateful day 20 years ago.After reading the posts on this thread and from speaking to various Liverpool supporting friends that I have (some had family at the match in question) I am completely clued up from what happened.It is my opinion that Liverpool fans are in no way what-so-ever to blame  for the tragedy. Were there not previous crushings of football supporters at the ground before the 15th of April 1989? Cup finals were banned from Hillsboro'' because of the lack of safety to the visiting fans? Before people start blaming Liverpool fans for the tragedy take what happened previously at Hillsboro'' and then think about it. The only good to have come from the terrible day twenty years ago is that we now have all seater stadia here in England. We dont want another horrendous day that the Liverpool fans (and people all around all the world) are thinking about today do we? I also didnt realise that had it been for the drawing of the balls coming out differently it could have been Norwich City fans at the ground as well. I guess we were lucky.... there were 96 fans who werent- please dont be-smirch the memories of those people by blaming Liverpool fans.  For what its worth I think the families were wonderful today who attended the event at Anfield, losing a loved one is never ever easy and even after 20 years it wont have gotten any easier.  YNWA[/quote]

CT''s best ever post. You''ve gone up in my estimations.

The liverpool fans weren''t to blame, and neither were the police 100%. Those blaming the police for opening gate c haven''t got a leg to stand on, because, 1. They had to do it because people were going to die outside, and 2. They had to make a decision and fast, because they couldn''t just stand there and let people die could they?

The fault of the police begins to come in when we get to the fact that nobody was barricading/blocking off the two central pens that were both full, thus ushering the fans into the two empty end pens. The fact that this would''ve happened in a normal case of over-congestion makes it more and more hard to understand why this didn''t happen.

You can''t blame the Liverpool fans for turning up drunk, as football fans all over the country years before and after the accident turn up drunk. Back in those days where hooliganism was at it''s worst. it was nigh on the norm for fans to turn up drunk.

Let''s not forget the SY Police lied regarding the opening of the gates. They tried to fob it off by saying that fans forced the gate. Ambulances were banned from entering the pitch because of crowd trouble and fighting. What trouble? not one single account has confirmed that fans were fighting. If all the ambulances would''ve been granted access to the pitch then I''m confident that lives would''ve been saved. Police also didn''t allow fans to carry the injured to ambulances because they were behind the forest stand. someone attacking someone who was carrying an injured body to safety is minimal in my opinion, and again could''ve saved lives even if it was just the one. That''s one family that wouldn''t be grieving.

Don''t even get me started on that scumbag McKenzie...

The most annoying fact about the whole thing is that it was easily avoidable.[/quote]I can''t put it any better than these two posts so i suggest those of you trying to blame the Liverpool fans should read them.

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[quote user="Say Hello To The Angels"][quote user="Croft Has Fcuked Up A Cross Again"][quote user="CT "]I have to confess that before the past few weeks in the lead up today - I wasnt aware of what had happened on that fateful day 20 years ago.

After reading the posts on this thread and from speaking to various Liverpool supporting friends that I have (some had family at the match in question) I am completely clued up from what happened.

It is my opinion that Liverpool fans are in no way what-so-ever to blame  for the tragedy. Were there not previous crushings of football supporters at the ground before the 15th of April 1989? Cup finals were banned from Hillsboro'' because of the lack of safety to the visiting fans?

Before people start blaming Liverpool fans for the tragedy take what happened previously at Hillsboro'' and then think about it. The only good to have come from the terrible day twenty years ago is that we now have all seater stadia here in England. We dont want another horrendous day that the Liverpool fans (and people all around all the world) are thinking about today do we?

I also didnt realise that had it been for the drawing of the balls coming out differently it could have been Norwich City fans at the ground as well. I guess we were lucky.... there were 96 fans who werent- please dont be-smirch the memories of those people by blaming Liverpool fans.  For what its worth I think the families were wonderful today who attended the event at Anfield, losing a loved one is never ever easy and even after 20 years it wont have gotten any easier. 

YNWA
[/quote] CT''s best ever post. You''ve gone up in my estimations. The liverpool fans weren''t to blame, and neither were the police 100%. Those blaming the police for opening gate c haven''t got a leg to stand on, because, 1. They had to do it because people were going to die outside, and 2. They had to make a decision and fast, because they couldn''t just stand there and let people die could they? The fault of the police begins to come in when we get to the fact that nobody was barricading/blocking off the two central pens that were both full, thus ushering the fans into the two empty end pens. The fact that this would''ve happened in a normal case of over-congestion makes it more and more hard to understand why this didn''t happen. You can''t blame the Liverpool fans for turning up drunk, as football fans all over the country years before and after the accident turn up drunk. Back in those days where hooliganism was at it''s worst. it was nigh on the norm for fans to turn up drunk. Let''s not forget the SY Police lied regarding the opening of the gates. They tried to fob it off by saying that fans forced the gate. Ambulances were banned from entering the pitch because of crowd trouble and fighting. What trouble? not one single account has confirmed that fans were fighting. If all the ambulances would''ve been granted access to the pitch then I''m confident that lives would''ve been saved. Police also didn''t allow fans to carry the injured to ambulances because they were behind the forest stand. someone attacking someone who was carrying an injured body to safety is minimal in my opinion, and again could''ve saved lives even if it was just the one. That''s one family that wouldn''t be grieving. Don''t even get me started on that scumbag McKenzie... The most annoying fact about the whole thing is that it was easily avoidable.[/quote]

I can''t put it any better than these two posts so i suggest those of you trying to blame the Liverpool fans should read them.
[/quote]

 

Don''t disagree with a lot of it but having said that it is not hard to see how someone who admits they knew nothing of the incident but is now "fully clued up" as a result of having discussions with Liverpool supporting friends may have a slightly one-sided view of events!

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I respect what you''re saying but I''m a 17 year old lad and before the lead up to yesterday I didnt know anything about what happened 20 years ago (apart from the 96 deaths).Where ever I got the information from would have made me biased to-wards the Liverpool way of seeing things. 96 people died and the police were severely at fault.

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[quote user="CT "]I respect what you''re saying but I''m a 17 year old lad and before the lead up to yesterday I didnt know anything about what happened 20 years ago (apart from the 96 deaths).

Where ever I got the information from would have made me biased to-wards the Liverpool way of seeing things. 96 people died and the police were severely at fault.
[/quote]

 

I expect you may have had a different perspective if your knowledge of the event had been gleaned from chatting to members of the south yorkshire constubulary or local Hillsborough residents about the day in question.

I don''t disagree that the police were at fault. My point is that its too simplistic to blame any one body or person for this tragedy and that some liverpool fans were in some way at fault as well (but say that and you will be demonised) and that little would be served through having another expensive inquiry over the whole incident.

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Let''s not all get on CT''s back here: He openly admitted that he didn''t know much about the whole disaster before yesterday. His opinion may have been influenced by a lot of liverpool fans, but it is ultimately the truth. I wouldn''t agree saying that the police are 100% to blame, more like 99%, due to the fact that I sympathise with them for opening the gate. I didn''t know a lot about it all, but from talking to friends and family, reading about it and watching television prgrams I have a good understanding of what happened, and most of what I have written in an above post supports most peoples ideas that were in fact around then.

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[quote user="Jim Smith"]

[quote user="CT "]I respect what you''re saying but I''m a 17 year old lad and before the lead up to yesterday I didnt know anything about what happened 20 years ago (apart from the 96 deaths).

Where ever I got the information from would have made me biased to-wards the Liverpool way of seeing things. 96 people died and the police were severely at fault.
[/quote]

 

I expect you may have had a different perspective if your knowledge of the event had been gleaned from chatting to members of the south yorkshire constubulary or local Hillsborough residents about the day in question.

I don''t disagree that the police were at fault. My point is that its too simplistic to blame any one body or person for this tragedy and that some liverpool fans were in some way at fault as well (but say that and you will be demonised) and that little would be served through having another expensive inquiry over the whole incident.

[/quote]

Really it''s a pity we have to blame anyone at a time where we should be remembering the innocent dead and feeling their families grief. Many of them were children, possibly loved ones of policemen too. As far as I''m aware all of them were legitimate ticket holders who didn''t turn up drunk late on the day.

All of us who regularly went to matches in the 70''s and 80''s have feared for our safety at some point so I understand the "there but for the grace of god" comments. And I was at Villa Park that day with my son who was 10 at the time. It certainly made me question whether taking him into football grounds all over the country would be a responsible thing to do. The fact that I can now take my 5 year old grandson in comparitive safety is something I think about as I imagine the terrible grief and loss felt by the parents and grandparents of those that perished on that day.

 

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[quote user="Jim Smith"]

[quote user="CT "]I respect what you''re saying but I''m a 17 year old lad and before the lead up to yesterday I didnt know anything about what happened 20 years ago (apart from the 96 deaths).

Where ever I got the information from would have made me biased to-wards the Liverpool way of seeing things. 96 people died and the police were severely at fault.
[/quote]

 

I expect you may have had a different perspective if your knowledge of the event had been gleaned from chatting to members of the south yorkshire constubulary or local Hillsborough residents about the day in question.

I don''t disagree that the police were at fault. My point is that its too simplistic to blame any one body or person for this tragedy and that some liverpool fans were in some way at fault as well (but say that and you will be demonised) and that little would be served through having another expensive inquiry over the whole incident.

[/quote]

The Yorkshire Constabulary who lied that the gate was forced open by a mob of Liverpool supporters, or who told a man watching his daughters be crushed to death to shut his f''n prattle, or mislead the ambulance staff into beleiving there was a riot making it unsafe to help the injured. Frankly the polices job on that day was to protect the people inside the stadium. They failed and then tried to pin the blame onto innocent people, regardless of what Liverpool supporters have or have not done in the past.

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