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silver fox

Still a lot to learn Bryan

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I think Gunn made a big tactical mistake today, which shows that he still has a lot to learn.  All week he has been ''bigging up'' what a good player Lee is and how he will win over the Norwich supporters, then he leaves him on the bench.  Carney looked knackered after returning from Australia, and Croft clearly wasn''t fit, yet he played them both from the start, with neither of them causing Shef Wed any real problems.  I know I''m not a manager, but surely he could have started with Lee and Mooney as strikers, with Gow on one side and Lappin on the other?   Finally, his decision to bring on two subs with only 10 minutes left,  is yet another example of his inexperience. 

 I believe he has done well considering his inexperience, but to start with unfit players, and leave your substitutions too late in the game, are mistakes he cannot afford to keep repeating if we are to stay up.

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Today would have been the day for Pattison wide left would have given the midfield a lot more bite and would have given more going forward. I have to wonder what Pattison has done wrong and what is the difference between Gunn and Roeder as team selection goes.

Please, please Brian Gunn choose your strongest team for NCFC irrespective of personal problems and dislikes and lets see the season out and stay in this division.  

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jeeze. gunn''s god until we lose... every team loses games and every team has off days. another day it might have worked and you''d be saying great decision.

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Gunns not being criticized for the fun of it, we play two wide men so we get a lot lighter in midfield so I would have thought that the first thing we need is a focal point up front who then happens to sit out 65 minutes on the bench after not being able to walk at the end of the Birmingham game.

What Carney has brought to the team in the last two games does beg belief as he was the weak link at Birmingham? After selling us on what Lee will bring to the team,how can he be able to when he is on the bench for two thirds of the game and then bring him on knowing he''ll take some time to get to the pace of the game.

I am also interested why many players weren''t up for the game today, that has to be the responsibity of the manager does it not.This isn''t the time to sit back and say nothing nor the time to idly criticise but we are showing some major signs of in experience.

If Gunn has a difference with Pattison please sort it out at the end of the season rather than at our expense during the season.

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We haven''t had a decent target man all season and when we do eventually get one, Uncle Fester decides not to start him. [:P] I was walking to Cromer from Itteringham listening to the commentary on the radio and the writing was on the wall as soon as the team selection was announced - I persevered until I reached Scarrow Beck at Hanworth Common where I switched the radio off to listen to the glorious birdsong.I was also delighted to spot a Hawfinch in the churchyard at Thurgaton. The last time I saw one of those was on Mousehold Heath as a kid in the sixties............Anyway, sorry to run off on a tangent by harping on about my wonderful afternoon in the countryside, but at least I spared you the details of the meal I had previous to the walk at the Walpole Arms. [;)]

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Bryan Gunn is doing fantastic, give him a new contractBryan Gunn still has a lot to learn, I think he''s out of his depth..We''ll alternate those each week. [:|]

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[quote user="The Chirp"]jeeze. gunn''s god until we lose... every team loses games and every team has off days. another day it might have worked and you''d be saying great decision.

[/quote]

I agree to an extent, but Gunny was clearly at fault with his subs today.

Plan A wasn''t clearly not working so by 60, or even 65 minutes, he clearly should have changed it up with Lee on for Mooney, Cody on for Carney, with them to up front and Gow moving out to left mid, he left his changes far far to late today, if Cody would have had maybe 25-30 mins to run at them, (something no one else did yesterday) then we may have tested them a bit more, cos hoofing it to 2 big men clearly didn''t work.

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[quote user="Mr. Bump"]Bryan Gunn is doing fantastic, give him a new contractBryan Gunn still has a lot to learn, I think he''s out of his depth..We''ll alternate those each week. [:|][/quote]

Thats is a true enough statement Mr Bump, but surely when it''s obvious that a tactical error with not bringing on the the subs sooner was made, we can''t criticize the decision?

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He will be a better manager if we win next weekend. If we lose then his inexperience will no doubt be the cause of our loss. Would be great if we had experienced manager who knew the EXACT time to bring on subs and which ones. Somebody like Roeder would be good at that.

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No tribes, Roeder wasn''t perfect at that and neither were Grant or Worthington.

The trouble is that when 25,000 people in the crowd can see that something needs to change then it gets very frustrating when the management team hesitate for 10 minutes or so after going a goal down before making an obvious substitution that could have been made at half time.

The point is that Team Gunn are learning on the job - fair enough if you are in mid-table, or safe, but pretty dangerous in our precarious position.

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it''s what i hate about being a nowich fan... the reaction of you lot... you love the manager when he wins... then we lose and all this rubbish starts again. Being a manager means taking gambles on players... if it works then youre the messiah... if not then you get all this tripe. look at zola yest, puts stanislas in... big gamble... but it came off and everyone pats him on the back. the pinkun messageboard feeling on people changes like the wind... people are now calling for pattison back! 

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Yep. Gunn made a big mistake by not changing things much earlier, and I would have liked to have seen Cody and Lee on.  I was also bemused as to why Carney started as he was obviously jet-lagged.  Once Gunn made the changes, the whole performance improved, but he simply left it too late, AGAIN !!  

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[quote user="Metatron"]Careful there Paul, apparently Team Gunn are above criticism and such points cannot be debated...[/quote]

So true Metatron,  I support Team Gunn, but not starting with Lee yesterday was a huge, nay, gigantic error!

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I firmly beleive our strongest starting 11 at this point in time would be

 

                          Marshall

Semmy      Doc                 Shacks   Bertrand

                          Clingan

Croft                                           Lappin

                            Gow

 

               Mooney         Lee

 

Hope to see us go with something like that for the next game.

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I have no wish to start criticising Gunn/Butterworth just for the sake of it but I was very surprised with team selection. Carney is simply not championship standard and does not appear to have the energy for the English game. He does not have enough pace for an out and out winger and leaves big gaps as he is slow to get back and offer any cover. He did little again yesterday and when we made our first substitution he was already on the way to the bench before he realised it was not him. By starting out with two wingers showed attacking intentions which is now our only option, but after a few minutes of the game it was apparent we were struggling in midfield to gain any sort of possession. Despite that there were at least three occasions when we had a player completely clear of the opposing defence but wasted the final ball.

Carney should have definitely been substituted at halftime and I put this down to a big management mistake. Overall a very disappointing performance with several players below par. Sorry to say but there seemed little shouting or encouragement from neither the bench or the captain.

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I don''t think anyone is suggesting Gunn is a bad manager but the game was crying out for Lee and I believe it was a mistake not to have him on from the start - wise after the event? maybe but I was saying this at 2 30

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Like John Boubepo I was surprised at the team selection and was saying that I thought it was a mistake before we kicked off, so again I am not trying to be wise wise after the event. By saying Gunn showed his inexperience today I mean just that, I am not saying he is a crap manager because we lost, I really fail to see what is wrong with saying that he showed his inexperience. When things are going well it is easy, but when things go wrong, that is the time an experienced manager will know when to change things around, the fact of the matter is that Gunn`s tactics did not work, and he left it far to late before he changed things around. 

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[quote user="The Chirp"]jeeze.

gunn''s god until we lose...

every team loses games and every team has off days.

another day it might have worked and you''d be saying great decision.


[/quote]  I accept we will lose some games under Gunn, but what I cannot accept is leaving your substitutions until the last ten minutes.  Yes he did take a gamble yesterday starting with Croft and Carney, but once he realised they were both having poor games he should have made the changes a lot sooner.

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Agree entirely. I thought the team selection was appalling but the fact he did not change it at half time when everyone in the ground could see what needed to happen was staggering and the fact that he then waited even longer before bringing Cody on just topped it off. The worry is that whilst gunn is inexeperienced I would have exepected the likes of Butterworth and Crook to have noticed what needed to be done and have a word. Maybe they did and he ignored them but the fact is that this is the third or fourth game where the changes have been made too late and its a lesson he needs to hurry up and learn before its too late!

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[quote user="John Boubepo"]I don''t think anyone is suggesting Gunn is a bad manager but the game was crying out for Lee and I believe it was a mistake not to have him on from the start - wise after the event? maybe but I was saying this at 2 30
[/quote]

 

Same here, the fans in the LB were getting a tad irate that changes weren''t being made fast enough, if we can see it surely so can the management team.

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[quote user="Metatron"]No tribes, Roeder wasn''t perfect at that and neither were Grant or Worthington. The trouble is that when 25,000 people in the crowd can see that something needs to change then it gets very frustrating when the management team hesitate for 10 minutes or so after going a goal down before making an obvious substitution that could have been made at half time. The point is that Team Gunn are learning on the job - fair enough if you are in mid-table, or safe, but pretty dangerous in our precarious position.[/quote]The truth is that all 25,000 people in the crowd would not have been asking for the same changes at the same time. Managers invariably get berated after the event if result hasn''t gone well. You would sometimes think that these managers had never played or watched a football match in their life the way some people infer that they " don''t know what they are doing".

As supporters we of course do know best and we all criticise, but the idea that when an inexperienced manager makes a decision that we don''t agree with then it is purely down to his inexperience is ridiculous. Many experienced managers do the same, but I suppose we then just say " you don''t know what you are doing".

 

 

 

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[quote user="Jim Smith"]Agree entirely. I thought the team selection was appalling but the fact he did not change it at half time when everyone in the ground could see what needed to happen was staggering and the fact that he then waited even longer before bringing Cody on just topped it off. The worry is that whilst gunn is inexeperienced I would have exepected the likes of Butterworth and Crook to have noticed what needed to be done and have a word. Maybe they did and he ignored them but the fact is that this is the third or fourth game where the changes have been made too late and its a lesson he needs to hurry up and learn before its too late![/quote]

All very worrying Jim, and it doesn''t bode well for the remaining games does it?

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[quote user="tribes"]

[quote user="Metatron"]No tribes, Roeder wasn''t perfect at that and neither were Grant or Worthington. The trouble is that when 25,000 people in the crowd can see that something needs to change then it gets very frustrating when the management team hesitate for 10 minutes or so after going a goal down before making an obvious substitution that could have been made at half time. The point is that Team Gunn are learning on the job - fair enough if you are in mid-table, or safe, but pretty dangerous in our precarious position.[/quote]The truth is that all 25,000 people in the crowd would not have been asking for the same changes at the same time. Managers invariably get berated after the event if result hasn''t gone well. You would sometimes think that these managers had never played or watched a football match in their life the way some people infer that they " don''t know what they are doing".

As supporters we of course do know best and we all criticise, but the idea that when an inexperienced manager makes a decision that we don''t agree with then it is purely down to his inexperience is ridiculous. Many experienced managers do the same, but I suppose we then just say " you don''t know what you are doing".

I think that Gunn''s inexperience does manifest itself in terms of ultra conservatism. When you look at great managers they know when to stick and when to twist. Ferguson on Sunday was a classic example. With 15 minutes left it didn''t look like they could get a point, but he gambled, knowing that a win was needed, and his substitutions eventually paid off spectacularly. Yes, it could have all gone horribly wrong had Villa nicked a third, as seemed likely, but it didn''t. The point is that experienced managers develop a feel for the rhythm of the game and read it correctly more often than not . Gunny is having to learn by his mistakes in an environment where we can''t afford mistakes.

 

[/quote]

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[quote user="vos"]

I have no wish to start criticising Gunn/Butterworth just for the sake of it but I was very surprised with team selection. Carney is simply not championship standard and does not appear to have the energy for the English game. He does not have enough pace for an out and out winger and leaves big gaps as he is slow to get back and offer any cover. He did little again yesterday and when we made our first substitution he was already on the way to the bench before he realised it was not him. By starting out with two wingers showed attacking intentions which is now our only option, but after a few minutes of the game it was apparent we were struggling in midfield to gain any sort of possession. Despite that there were at least three occasions when we had a player completely clear of the opposing defence but wasted the final ball.

Carney should have definitely been substituted at halftime and I put this down to a big management mistake. Overall a very disappointing performance with several players below par. Sorry to say but there seemed little shouting or encouragement from neither the bench or the captain.

[/quote]

Can''t argue with much of this. But it wasn''t just Carney it was the whole midfield. I had no problem with Gunn playing Gow and Mooney instead of Lee. After all it''s only a few weeks ago everyone was raving about them and if I''d have come on here and suggested that we bring in Alan Lee on loan and drop one of them I''d have been laughed off the board. We were over run in midfield. Totally. Croft looked unfit, Clingan had just played two massive games for his country, Carney is lightweight and had been half way around the world and Lappin needs strong fit players around him to protect if he''s going to have a chance in central midfield. If things had been different Fotheringham could have played and would have made a positive difference. But we were stuck with what we had. Now we have more options up front it seems we don''t have enough options in midfield. I doubt Lee would have made much difference except we could have gone route one all afternoon.

And I agree about Doc. He is a passionate and committed player who probably deserves to be POS in this poor season but he is too nice and too quiet to be captain. But worryingly I don''t see any better options.

 

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[quote user="Beauseant"][quote user="tribes"]

[quote user="Metatron"]No tribes, Roeder wasn''t perfect at that and neither were Grant or Worthington. The trouble is that when 25,000 people in the crowd can see that something needs to change then it gets very frustrating when the management team hesitate for 10 minutes or so after going a goal down before making an obvious substitution that could have been made at half time. The point is that Team Gunn are learning on the job - fair enough if you are in mid-table, or safe, but pretty dangerous in our precarious position.[/quote]The truth is that all 25,000 people in the crowd would not have been asking for the same changes at the same time. Managers invariably get berated after the event if result hasn''t gone well. You would sometimes think that these managers had never played or watched a football match in their life the way some people infer that they " don''t know what they are doing".

As supporters we of course do know best and we all criticise, but the idea that when an inexperienced manager makes a decision that we don''t agree with then it is purely down to his inexperience is ridiculous. Many experienced managers do the same, but I suppose we then just say " you don''t know what you are doing".

I think that Gunn''s inexperience does manifest itself in terms of ultra conservatism. When you look at great managers they know when to stick and when to twist. Ferguson on Sunday was a classic example. With 15 minutes left it didn''t look like they could get a point, but he gambled, knowing that a win was needed, and his substitutions eventually paid off spectacularly. Yes, it could have all gone horribly wrong had Villa nicked a third, as seemed likely, but it didn''t. The point is that experienced managers develop a feel for the rhythm of the game and read it correctly more often than not . Gunny is having to learn by his mistakes in an environment where we can''t afford mistakes.

 

[/quote][/quote]..and it''s pretty deep.

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Have to agree with Nutty, we just did nothing in midfield. It could have been anyone upfront, but the midfield neither kept the ball, passed the ball or created much for the forwards. Some of them should have been changed at half time, but sadly we had few options. Not sure that the blame for this can be laid solely at Bryan Gunn''s door.

Also I don''t think we will be seeing either Fotheringham or Pattison play for us again, so they are well out of the equation. Hopefully Clingan will have recovered from his international duty and we will have Russell back. They may hold the tide but who to create openings for the forwards? That''s my worry.

Added to that Sheff Wed had done their homework on us and spent the first half taking their attack against both full backs, drawing Shacks away from the centre. Hopefully we won''t come up against managers like Brian Laws every week either. For a team like Wednesday with little to play for, I thought he''d got them playing a well organised and committed game.

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[quote user="Lambo"]

I firmly beleive our strongest starting 11 at this point in time would be

 

                          Marshall

Semmy      Doc                 Shacks   Bertrand

                          Clingan

Croft                                           Lappin

                            Gow

 

               Mooney         Lee

 

Hope to see us go with something like that for the next game.

[/quote]

No place for Lappin at this level, bring in Rusty and move Gow out left and I think you are there.

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[quote user="Beauseant"]I think that Gunn''s inexperience does manifest itself in terms of ultra

conservatism. When you look at great managers they know when to stick

and when to twist.[/quote]But look at the cards Ferguson has to play with.  61 mins Man Utd substitution: Nani is replaced by youngster Federico Macheda.88 mins Man Utd substitution: Tevez comes off and Danny Welbeck comes on.Does Gunn have anything like the talent of those players available to him on the bench ?  The answer is obviously no.

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