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Old Shuck

The Club-Ownership & Alternatives-Input & Knowledge Needed Please

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Isn''t Barcelona owned by the fans, a sort of footballing Co-Operative?

Hopefully someone more familiar with their set up can outline it on here?

It seems to me that, for such a massive, massive club-one of the top 10 in the world in terms of history, size, income, "glamour", reputation, you name it-can be owned/managed in an altruistic manner that serves the greater good of the football club and the community in general, then surely that is an example for others to look into following, or surely to explore?

Could it be something that is a possibility for us?

We do seem to be nearing our footballing equivalent of "ground zero" and change us needed, massive and revolutionary, not just cosmetic, and certainly without the spin that eminates from within the club.

I am guessing that such a change/concept would be, at the least from an administrative and bureaucratic point of view, as well as a financial one, an absolute logistical nightmare to implement?

But, as there is no single rich benefactor on the horizon, nor is there likely to be -and lets face it, would we want a few, or even one person, however wealthy they are-to have complete control of the club?

Could this be a way ahead?

Just thinking about it, yes, it sounds as if it would be a truly enormous project, and, those more familiar with how it might work could say that it just couldn''t be done here.

But we can''t go on as we are, and we aren''t going to have a Roman-type figure either.

Am I naive? Could this happen? Could we be another, little, Barcelona?

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thing is Barca did it about a hundred years ago when they were a tiny provincial club, basically spanish footballs whipping boys.... it wouldnt work today i dont think....

jas :)

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[quote user="jas the barclay king"]

thing is Barca did it about a hundred years ago when they were a tiny provincial club, basically spanish footballs whipping boys.... it wouldnt work today i dont think....

jas :)

[/quote]I''ve been emailing one of their press people to see if he can provide the framework of how it works… you never know!

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Hopefully the following will help!The problem with the idea (which has been debated several times on here) is one of scale. As you will see Barca have over 150,000 members, which is a bit different to 24000 or thereabouts.

 

Barca is owned by its ever-growing membership of 156,366 ''socis'' (members), who pay 150euros each year and are represented by a randomly-selected group who meet with the board and vote on major decisions.

These representatives have a major say on significant issues such as sponsorship, finances and sporting affairs, while the president of the club is elected in four-yearly polls.

The achievements of the illustrious club since its founding in 1899 are testament to the ongoing success of the structure, as is the fact many clubs have attempted to copy the model over the years.

So why does Barca''s system work so well?

All adult members are eligible to vote in the presidential elections every four years.

Club members selected randomly by computer and age, and 25 chosen by the board, join the directors, former presidents and other officials at the annual delegates assembly to discuss key issues, approve the annual report and forthcoming projects.

Only members can buy season tickets, with membership fees contributing to the overall price of the ticket.

Fiscal rewards for membership include discounted tickets for the club''s various sports teams including football, basketball, handball and hockey as well as club magazines, e-mail updates, sporting and cultural activities and free entry to the Nou Camp tour and museum.

Ultimately, though, it is not the material rewards which make the Barca membership structure so prestigious.

In a modern game spoiled by disaffected supporters and unaccountable owners, it is FC Barcelona''s utopian democracy which justifies its famous slogan ''More than a Club''.

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Thanks Beauseant.

Respect to Barcelona. What an excellent system and philosophy. Logistically, something similar would, of course, be very difficult here, perhaps the absolute maximum, in an ideal world, we could get as "members" might be no more than 40-50''000.

Its a numbers game but it seems, well, right, right for football, right for something that calls itself a "club", right for the fans, the City, the community.

Naively, I''m playing with figures.

I''m seeing we get 25''000 at home games.

I''m thinking that, surely, surely, even worldwide there are another 25''000 Norwich fans who''d love to see something happen, love to see change, love to be part of it???

50''000 hypothetical Canaries.

20% say they''re not interested, bugger off, stupid idea, you''re nuts mate...

....40''000 think, yes, lets give it a go.

Minimum £150 each-thats "only" £6''000''000. So, like was said earlier, its a numbers game, maybe they''re aren''t enough of us.

£30''000''000, that would be (bear with me, its Sunday night, I''m tired and clutching at a straw so small and hypothetical that Stephen Hawking would have trouble proving its existence) 50''000 people putting in a minimum of...hell, £600 each.

Maybe some could put in more. So others could put in less. But you know, its stupid, irrational, has already been pointed out that we''re too small and not enough people would invest and that, well, problems cubed...

But I do wonder.

Naaa, too big, too pie in the sky, too, well, it wouldn''t, would it. Would it?

I''d look into anything at the moment!

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The numbers being talked about are just not sensible. We have around 20,000 season ticket holders. Discount child and students and you are down to around 14,000. You would struggle to find 1,000 supporters who are not season ticket holders who might be interested in investing.

So you are looking at 15,000 people for an initial buyout. Ignore the debt which would be ongoing it still works out at an initial £1000 each. To maintain the debt and keep the club solvent you would each be putting in at least £500 per year on top of your season tickets.

Speaking as somebody with a well above average income and two season tickets I would not be able to throw away that sort of money and I guess there would not be many who would.

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This is the problem with a fans co-operative-

 

I''d consider myself to be a more staunch supporter than most, not being arrogant - Many years as season ticket holder, seen Norwich play at over 90 League, non League, foriegn grounds, share holder (gave up dividends so club could sign Ashton), go to home reserve games and have been to a few away ones as well! ETC.

 

If someone devised a plan that say if 25000 Norwich fans could put £1000 into a pot which would raise £25M in order to buy the club with no guarantees they''ve ever get any retrun on their money, I wouldn''t be able to do it and thats after doing all the above in the name of supporting Norwich City.

 

How many people out of 25,000 could afford to do this or even have the desire to it particularly those who go to the games but aren''t over passionate about it?

 

Not many would be the answer!

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Found this on Barca''s finances:

Historic budget approved

The budget for the 2008/09 season, the highest in the club’s history at 380 million euros, has been approved by the Ordinary General Assembly this Sunday with 736 votes in favour, 79 against and 89 blank votes.


A record budget. This is what the Mediators Assembly has approved this Sunday afternoon in the third point of the day. Joan Boix, treasurer and economic vice-president explained that F.C. Barcelona hopes to earn 380 million euros in the 2008/09 season and he branded this budget as “ambitious and exciting, but above all affordable, thorough and realistic”.

In this sense, Joan Boix highlighted how the board congratulated itself on “being able to confirm that these figures exceed our greatest expectations”. “The business plan presented by the Board in 2003 predicted earnings of 245 million euros this season and we’ve made it to 380”, he added.

Reasons for the growth

This growth, some 18.7% on the last tax year, is due to several factors. The first reason is through media income thanks to the new television contract with Mediapro, a contract that guarantees a yearly income of 120 million. Boix describes the deal with Mediapro as “one of the best audiovisual contracts in the football industry”.

The second largest area of growth is in marketing, which has grown by 46.1 million euros. Included in this block are three main principles according to Joan Boix. One of them is the recovery of the running of the shops and licences from Nike. “It’s all about a line of business which will allow us to increase earnings by 32 million euros, compared with 7 last season”, pointed out the Barcelona vice-president. “We should bear in mind, however the new sponsorship agreement for the kit with Nike, which will allow us to go from 23 to 37 million in earnings. The third and final aspect is the marked rise in the concept of club sponsors.

Operating profit: 25 million euros

As for expenses, Joan Boix commented that the club “will go back to moving within normal parameters this growth signifies”. That way it is expected that this 2008/09 season spending 355 million euros will generate a benefit of 25 million euros with a pre-tax profit of 15. The tendency to obtain regular profits started in the 2003/04 season is maintained.

The loan will be paid off

If the club paid off 13 of the 26 million bank debt last season, it is expected that in 2008/09 the club will return the outstanding 13 million. This would mean the paying off of all loans.

What’s more is that they will continue to invest in other activities, such as the 12 million euros planned for improvements and maintenance work on the Camp Nou and the other sports installations and the investment of 8 million in the new young footballers home in Sant Joan Despí.

“Exceptional figures”

In short, Joan Boix has set out some figures that he has described as “exceptional”. “The club is consolidating a business model which is self-financing and sustainable after 5 years of profits. At the end of this season the accumulated working profit for the last 5 years will 102 million euros”, he concluded.

*****************************************************************************************
Historic budget approved

 

Sala i Martín: “the economic dynamics are positive”

Once Joan Boix finished his speech, the president of FC Barcelona’s statutory commission, Xavier Sala I Martín, expounded his bodies report on the 2008/09 seasons budget. After discussing some of the points set out by Joan Boix, especially that of the budget’s growth, Sala I Martín concluded: “The budget for the 2008/09 campaign is similar to the last five seasons. The economic and financial dynamics of the club is positive”.

 

OTBC

 

 

 

 

 

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[quote user="grantroederdisaster"]

This is the problem with a fans co-operative-

 

I''d consider myself to be a more staunch supporter than most, not being arrogant - Many years as season ticket holder, seen Norwich play at over 90 League, non League, foriegn grounds, share holder (gave up dividends so club could sign Ashton), go to home reserve games and have been to a few away ones as well! ETC.

 

If someone devised a plan that say if 25000 Norwich fans could put £1000 into a pot which would raise £25M in order to buy the club with no guarantees they''ve ever get any retrun on their money, I wouldn''t be able to do it and thats after doing all the above in the name of supporting Norwich City.

 

How many people out of 25,000 could afford to do this or even have the desire to it particularly those who go to the games but aren''t over passionate about it?

 

Not many would be the answer!

[/quote]Even if we took control like this, how many could afford to keep shelling out to make it break even let alone successful? (Unless we all sanctioned player sales.)

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And this

Si!![:)]

Image associated to news article on:FC BARCELONA FINANCIAL BALANCE

FC BARCELONA FINANCIAL BALANCE

SETTLEMENT OF ACCOUNTS 2007/08 SEASON

Trading income: 308.8 million euros
Operating costs: 292.6 million euros
Ebitda (Earnings before tax and depreciations): +68.8 million euros
Operating profit or loss: +16.1 million euros
Income / financial expenses: -8.0 million euros
Operational profit or loss: +8.2 million euros
Extraordinary income / expenses: +0.4 million euros
Before tax profit or loss: +8.6 million euros
Tax payments: +1.5 million euros
Net profit or loss: +10.1 million euros

BUDGET 2008/09 SEASON

Trading income: 380 million euros
Operating costs: 355 million euros
Operating profit or loss: +25 million euros
Financial and extraordinary profit or loss: -10 million euros
Before tax net profit or loss: +15 million euros

All these figures were passed at the Ordinary General Assembly held on September 24, 2008.

 

OTBC

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And this too:

 

FORM PART OF THE CLUB YOU DECIDE

Members have a vice and vote

Being a member of the club means being involved in its future. As the statutes explain, members have the right to express themselves and take part in general assemblies and vote in presidential elections. Members have the right to vote and decide upon their club’s future.

Member’s rights

Members have the right to vote in elections to the presidency of the club. These are held every 4 years and any adult member that has been with the club for a minimum of one year can exercise their right to vote. Members also have the right to present themselves to become members of the Board of Directors.

They can also exercise their right to vote at the General Assembly, which is the club’s supreme governing body and whose agreements must be respected by all members and also the Board of Directors. The Assembly is attended by conference delegates, i.e. members chosen by lots to represent the general membership for a period of two years. To be a delegate you must be an adult and to have been a member for at least one year.

Give your opinion and participate

All members have the right to express themselves freely through the club’s official organs of communication and are always guaranteed a reply. The membership’s opinions are of major importance when it comes to deciding how to run the club. You can contact the club in person at the Barcelona Supporters Services Offices (OAB), by telephone, 902 1899 00, or by e-mail, oab@fcbarcelona.cat

Members can also select a Solidarity Project in collaboration with the Foundation. Being a member of Barça means forming part of a fine Institution that defends worldwide such vales as civil duty, fair play and solidarity.

Identify yourself with the club

Members have a membership number and code that is used to identify them within the club. They also have the option of having their own club e-mail: yourname@socis.fcbarcelona.cat

The club also recognises when people have been members for certain periods of time and rewards them with surprise gifts when they renew their membership.

OTBC

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And lastly (for today!):

Voice and Vote

Image associated to news article on:

Only members decide the future of the club and play a direct role in Barça’s triumphs.

VOTE

In the presidential elections

Adults that have been a club member for at least one year and over 18 years old, are eligible to vote in the presidential elections every 4 years.

In the annual delegates assembly 

The Assembly comprises of:

- club members selected by computer draw, according to the article 19.2 of the club regulation
- club members chosen by age as per article 19.2b of the club statute
- members of the board of directors
- former club presidents
- members of the disciplinary commission
- members of the economic commission
- up to 25 members chosen by the board of directors
 

VOICE

Right to participate

Club members have the right to participate in areas of the club in accordance with the club regulations, as well as to exercise their rights.

Right to express yourself

Channels of communication with the club:

Web:

www.fcbarcelona.cat

E-mail:

oab@fcbarcelona.cat

Personal attention

– Barcelona Supporters'' Services Office (OAB)

Phone: 

+34 934963600

 

OTBC

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Even if the supporters couldn''t do it alone........what if a consortium like you are proposing was merely a third of it?Find 2 or 3 Delia-sized investors willing to match what the consortium raises.......one thing''s for sure. I never want us to go back into this situation, with 2 people holding such a vast majority, ever again.

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The British semi pro version of this (Buy your own football club: Ebbsfleet United) is now struggling to survive as after the first season quite a lot of investors at £35 a time seem to have disappeared.

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[quote user="Camuldonum"]The British semi pro version of this (Buy your own football club: Ebbsfleet United) is now struggling to survive as after the first season quite a lot of investors at £35 a time seem to have disappeared.[/quote]

Maybe. But at least Norwich City has the remains of a fairly famous brand which, if correctly and creatively packaged, has a fair chance of being effectively marketed on a sustainable basis. Particularly as the club has a pretty wide and exclusive geographic catchment area.

Neither must one underestimate the current worldwide appeal of the English game these days.

There are plenty of characters around the IT shrunken globe today willing to have a pop to be part of revolutionary club aiming for the premiership to stay.

Ideal for the adventure and ambition of a Cullum type; anathema to the pedestrian caution and prudence of a Smith type.

OTBC

 

 

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This is at a tangent to the question of long-term ownership. More to do

with keeping our heads above water financially in the short-term.

Bly makes the point about our catchment area. I would expand that.

Norwich City (and there are a few other clubs like this) is part of the

emotional fabric of the county, rather - on a smaller scale - in the

way that Barcelona is a symbol of Catalan pride.

I used to live in Northamptonshire, but there was nothing like the

attachment throughout that county to Northampton Town as there is in

the whole of Norfolk for the Canaries. 

I believe the club could make use of that. I am a Friend of Norwich

Cathedral, which symbolises Norwich and Norfolk just as NCFC does. My

contribution, in a very small way, keeps the building standing.

Create a Friends of Norwich City, for people not rich (or mad) enough

to buy the club but to wealthy enough to donate - say - £50,000 or

£100,000. Their reward...would be absolutely nothing. Just the arm glow

of knowing they were helping to keep Norwich City standing until the

economy recovers (fingers crossed) and some white knight appears on the

horizon.

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Perhaps a fans consortium can get a seat on the board under the same Barca model. 2Mill bought the Turners a seat. Fans then elect (or random) the representative. If more fans come on line over time, then more control of the club passes to them. Would require a lot less money. The current board wouldn''t have to give up their control (yet!) but it might dissipate the negative feeling that many (most?) fans now seem to have against them. Obviously unless the whole club is bought then it requires that the current board agree but it may be the only way they can save their skins in the long run and avoid demonstrations. The only problem is people seeing it as giving money away to a failed regime. 20000 people paying 100 quid each would raise 2mill if my poor maths is correct.

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[quote user="SPat"]Perhaps a fans consortium can get a seat on the board under the same Barca model. 2Mill bought the Turners a seat. Fans then elect (or random) the representative. If more fans come on line over time, then more control of the club passes to them. Would require a lot less money. The current board wouldn''t have to give up their control (yet!) but it might dissipate the negative feeling that many (most?) fans now seem to have against them. Obviously unless the whole club is bought then it requires that the current board agree but it may be the only way they can save their skins in the long run and avoid demonstrations. The only problem is people seeing it as giving money away to a failed regime. 20000 people paying 100 quid each would raise 2mill if my poor maths is correct.
[/quote]

And there is the problem. You would struggle to find 200 people willing to put in £100

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Spat has a good point I feel. What is needed is for a member of a fans consortium to have a seat on the board, and for the present owners to relinquish their majority holding and control. We vowed never to be in this position again after Chase, but have stumbled blindly into it again.

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If the club marketed the idea to people, added it as a top-up to the season ticket, gave people a sparkly gold card with discounts added to it for things like the club shop, and allowed it to be paid over 12 months as the season ticket is, I think you''d get 10,000 people willing to pay £100, as it''s less than an extra tenner a month when broken down.  You might also get a few non season ticket holding members and ex-pats like Bly willing to do it too.  For all that CanariesWorld costs to run, you could chuck that in with the top-up membership too...The people who pay the extra £100 could then hold an election to decide who would take a supporters'' seat on the board.It would in all reality be 500k - 1 million per season initially, but these things do grow over time.  You could then either park this cash to pay the wages of a loanee like Lita with the interest, or just add it to the transfer budget.The thing is, while there is a risk without return, I doubt that the club would sanction it.

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I really like the concept, and think that Spat''s suggestion is excellent, but I fear it will founder in terms of the existing regime''s response, and the take up rate amongst the fans. Putting you money where your mouth is not something I see the majority of fans going for, and suspect that even Blah''s 10,000 may be optimistic.

I was interested to read an earlier post drawing a parallel between our situation and Catalan nationalism, as this is an issue I posted on in the summer. While I appreciate that we are a little bit "different" out here, I don''t think it''s quite the same thing. Catalans are drawn together not just by ethnic considerations, but also by a long a bloody history. We don''t really have anything like Franco''s repression or Guernica to bind us together, and Kett''s rebellion is rather too far back!

So, what do we do? Given that raising enough to control the club is pie in the sky, perhaps one way forward is to approach someone like Cullum, or even Michael Foulger with some sort of mandate from the fanbase to offer fans involvement in any buy out (in return for some sort of say) based on an annnual contribution of perhaps £1,000,000. I''m sceptical that it will work, but I sick to death of moaning and doing nothing while the club slowly falls apart, as I''m sure most others are.

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Thanks. The stumbling blocks seem to be the current board''s dislike of the idea. They therefore need to be convinced that basically it would mean an injection of cash and may be the only way they can avoid a Chase-like scenario all over again. The other stumbling block is raising the money. Who know''s unless it''s tried. The kitty failed (IMO) because the board never agreed that they would do anything except probably take the cash and spend how they will without any accountability. A seat on the board gives the fans the accountability we want. If the club agree to a seat if eg. 2 mill is raised then I''d give 200 quid. If not enough is raised then we all get our money back. That also gives the opportunity for richer people to give more (but still for only one vote in my view) if it pushes the final amount up enough. Anyone with enough legal nouse to draft a proposal to the club?

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People like to own.

People like to belong.

People like democracy.

People like to back the underdog.

People like to ride the waves of success.

Think about it.

Power to the people!

Think ownership club.

Think Norfolk, think pride, think soul, think success!!!

Be happy!

[:D]

OTBC

 

 

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[quote user="SPat"]Thanks. The stumbling blocks seem to be the current board''s dislike of the idea. They therefore need to be convinced that basically it would mean an injection of cash and may be the only way they can avoid a Chase-like scenario all over again. The other stumbling block is raising the money. Who know''s unless it''s tried. The kitty failed (IMO) because the board never agreed that they would do anything except probably take the cash and spend how they will without any accountability. A seat on the board gives the fans the accountability we want. If the club agree to a seat if eg. 2 mill is raised then I''d give 200 quid. If not enough is raised then we all get our money back. That also gives the opportunity for richer people to give more (but still for only one vote in my view) if it pushes the final amount up enough. Anyone with enough legal nouse to draft a proposal to the club?
[/quote]

 

Cambridge Canary is a corporate lawyer, so it could be worth PMing him. I for one would certainly contribute to such a scheme.

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