Do "The Board" think they are in any way to blame?

[|BA 0]

[quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

You are lacking joined-up thinking IMO IBA.

[/quote]Not so. As I''ve pointed out in another thread the club cannot spend money where it pleases. We have debts - light compared to many clubs - but debts nonetheless. Borrowing and or re-investing money as we''ll call it cannot always be done where the hearts says to spend it. There are outside considerations that may only ''allow'' that money to be put into hard assets. As you will find Mr C, when you''ve eventually flogged your house to buy the club a player as we agreed you''d do (albeit as a loan which will make you bundles when we resell him at massive profit LOL), you may find yourself a few £k short. Now if you seriously think your bank is going to rub its hands together at the prospect of loaning you money to buy a footballer, you''ll find, I''m afraid, that contrary to your beliefs the figures they will present to you will clearly show that the odds will be stacked way against them ever getting their money back. Hence you''ll be telling them its for an extension.... bricks and morter. Even in the current climate you''re far more likely to get the money for investment into your property than a footballerSo regardless of where any of us thinki the club should be spending, as with so many things in life, it aint that simple.

[Chrisr 0]

[quote user="yellow hammer"]There are three things required to run a successful project.

1. Aptitude. That is to say that the skills, experience and knowledge to do the job are present. I think that the weight of evidence is that DS and MJW never had the right aptitude for running a football club. At the outset they appointed Bob Cooper from Sainsburys as Chairman, which I think was to address the need to fix the financial and administrative side of the club. He did this and moved on. At the time he was criticized for not having football related skills but at the time we were facing bankruptcy and the priority was to keep us financially solvent. When Cooper left the Club, DS should have appointed someone to the board with football experience to provide a link between the football management and the executive. A few years ago, I made a long post about the need for a Director of Football, because it was clear to me , at least, that there was a severe skills shortage at board level in how to manage a football club. In the event DS and MJW left far too much control of the football side to the manager without ever taking a long-term view of the football side. The only long-term vision they had was in the area they felt most comfortable with, building up the non-football side of the club and getting involved in property investment. Appointing the Turners further concentrated their minds on the financial management of the club. The Turners remit was to cut costs and looking for financial savings. No one was looking out for the football side. A manager was appointed and he was left to do whatever he wanted. Roeder took full advantage of this to experiment with the loan system of building a team. Did anyone on the board ask Roeder whether his loan-model had ever succeeded at another club? We will never know.

2. Attitude. Success requires motivation, focus, passion to succeed. It is quite possible to have all the skills to do a job but if one is, say, bored, then the job will not be done properly. A leader’s job is to get the right attitude as this often makes the difference between success and failure, especially in a sporting context where aptitude may be very similar between rivals. DS and MWJ have attitude in bucketloads. It is their greatest strength. Nobody can doubt Delia’s commitment and passion for NCFC. In fact, I think it was passion and desire for success that drilled City from a failing club into the Premiership over a very short period of time. We actually ran away with the Championship title that year because the players believed they were unbeatable, especially at Carrow Road. Their attitude was spot on. And it is leaders who generate good attitude. Part of that good attitude has to be attributed to DS and MJW, and partly to leaders on the field, players such as Iwan Roberts and Malky Mackay. Then once we made it to the Prem we actually dumped the guys that every player looked up to and just never replaced them with equivalents. Instead we ended up with football’s mercenaries and carpet baggers. We lost the attitude within the team and only ever saw it in glimpses in players like Dion Dublin and Darren Huckerby. Once the right attitude was lost on the pitch it started to go off the pitch as well. The backroom staff and office staff started to resign or were sacked, not because they weren’t good enough, but because the good feeling had long gone.

3. Resources. This is both money and time. If you don’t have the resources you can’t build a successful project. For sure, NCFC doesn’t have enough money. We don’t have a rich sugar daddy, and whether or not there was a rich benefactor a year ago is only of historical interest because in today’s macro economic climate a billionaire investor is about as likely as snow falling on Abu Dhabi. But over the past twelve years one of the biggest mistakes was failing to seek long-term investment in the Club. The Turners two million was a joke, it barely covered the close season cash flow requirements and probably side-tracked the board into thinking that our financial problems had gone away. Another grievous mistake was in not realizing that the income generated from being in the Prem, in the region of 30-50 mill per annum, far outweighs any income that can possibly generated by off-field activities. There’s not a hope in hell than merchandising, restaurants, affinity cards or serving tap water at boardroom meetings is going to generate 30 million cash per year. Being in the top league guarantees it. But it requires onfield investment to get there and stay there. Yes, there will be a lot of write-off of onfield investment, It shouldn’t come as a surprise that football is a huge risk. But a Director of Football would help to minimize the risk. We are after all football club first and foremost and not merely a nice day out in the city for gentlefolk, I think.

A little bit of luck never goes amiss but since it is out of our control we should dismiss it’s value but hope we get our share.

Many projects have sufficient aptitude and resources but fail because the attitude is not there. Walk down a bookstore with a shelf on Business and you’ll find nearly every book is on the subject of how to develop the right attitude. Our problem is that our board has little aptitude and even less resources in running a football club yet have enthusiasm and passion bursting out of their ears. And too many posters on the Pinkun mistake attitude for aptitude, thinking because they care so much for the club then they are the best people to be in charge of the club. If only that were the case and if only we could live on being “the greatest fans in the world” we would now be top of the Premiership. Even today’s rallying call from Doncaster appealing to our “community spirit” is all part of lifting up our attitude. Sadly, and very sadly, it simply is not enough apart from a short term panacea,if we don’t have the right aptitude and resources running through the club we will never break out of our downward spiral.

Let’s assume with one massive, collective push we manage to scrape home to safety and avoid relegation. Then what? Who thinks it won’t start all over again next season? Unless we fix the underlying causes of our long-term failure eventually we will run out of luck.[/quote]Really good stuff.One thing I think a project always requires is a clear vision of outcome. I last worked  for a company where I spent so much time in projects screaming "yes but what do you want to ACHIEVE in this ?" (Now down from 500 employees in 2006 to 100 or so in 2009, well done lads) I think that the measure of success for the board was always simply keeping NCFC in existence in the long term whilst attempting to do well on the field. Not necessarily a bad motivation given the situation we were in when they assumed the mantel. Problem is the measure of success for some fans is winning / premiership football and beggar the consequences if it goes wrong. Different goals. I think maybe a more adventurous approach to spending would have benefitted us in the premier year but hey how much have the teams in the drop zone now shelled out? What is the future for Middlesborough or Portsmouth if they do go down? Alot worse than it was for us. There have been numerous mistakes along the way and yep I reckon more footballing knowledge at board level was sorely needed. Do I think Delia and Michael have the attitude? Absolutely. Do they have the Footballing aptitude? Fraid not. The question is where we find someone else in this climate who has. 

[gazzathegreat 0]

IBA, sorry for being so dim, but are we not a football club, therefore presumably we are supposed to be buying footballers, not property.

The fact that not so many moons ago we actually had a few quality ones has not escaped notice in some quarters. To now be fobbed off with cast offs from other clubs is our club sinking to a new low. And we did have the money, it has just been wasted and directed in the wrong places. How come other clubs with gates well below our constant 20,000 plus can soar above us in the league. That is not just the money from the directors'' own pockets, but money earned through promotion and TV monies.

But as the OP pointed out, do the board think they are to blame? I think not.

[astrodyne 0]

It''s always the fault of something else - TV money going, parachute payments going, financial meltdowns. Never once holding their hands up and saying - yep, we screwed up - only the unfortunate ''cleverer'' comment! To me, this constant state of denial smacks of inability.

[whoareyou? 0]

IBA, are you Doomcaster in disguise? You have the same blinkered thinking he does!

And have totalled ignored my comment about the £2+ miilion we have had to pay in DEBT repayment this year!

Imagine if Gunny had had £2million to spend last month? We may have been able to sign Ched Evans or some other decent goalscorer.

Instead we sold a player who looked like he could have been half decent (Bell) because he didn''t want to be here anymore(like all decent quality players seem to think) and signed only one permanent player who comes from non-league football!

You''ll be very happy watching League One football next season, i bet!

[nutty nigel 7,528]

[quote user="yellow hammer"]The board haven''t worked it out because they lack the know-how to have a succesful team, they lack the intelligence to do so and no one has bought them out and done otherwise beacuse they seemingly have no intention of selling up. When someone became interested they found a thousand reasons not to talk to him and when the Turners showed an interest, it appears their opinions for the future differed enough for the Turners not to want to be a part of it I''m just absolutley astonished that supporters just accept our lot as a p*ss poor football team. I have no doubt that if we carry on with the current owners and CE then we will struggle in League One as well, because team investment is so low on their list of priorites. Exactly my sentiments.[/quote]

So what are you two actually saying? Are you saying that the Turners knew what you two know about running a successful football club but were stopped from giving us that success by that wicked Smith and Jones? I bet there''s plenty of other clubs who would bite their hands off for that sort of knowledge - I wonder where the Turners will end up next.

 

[whoareyou? 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="yellow hammer"]The board haven''t worked it out because they lack the know-how to have a succesful team, they lack the intelligence to do so and no one has bought them out and done otherwise beacuse they seemingly have no intention of selling up. When someone became interested they found a thousand reasons not to talk to him and when the Turners showed an interest, it appears their opinions for the future differed enough for the Turners not to want to be a part of it I''m just absolutley astonished that supporters just accept our lot as a p*ss poor football team. I have no doubt that if we carry on with the current owners and CE then we will struggle in League One as well, because team investment is so low on their list of priorites. Exactly my sentiments.[/quote]

So what are you two actually saying? Are you saying that the Turners knew what you two know about running a successful football club but were stopped from giving us that success by that wicked Smith and Jones? I bet there''s plenty of other clubs who would bite their hands off for that sort of knowledge - I wonder where the Turners will end up next.

 

[/quote]

No what i am saying is that it''s patently obvious that Smith and Jones do not have a clue how to begin to get a succesful football team. maybe the Turners thought they had a better way but were told by Smith and Jones that they didn''t like it so would not allow it!

So do all you lot think by some miracle that one day Smith and Jones will finally arrive at the solution to getting a succesful football team? they have had 13 years at getting it right now and have only managed it once in those 13 years. Not a great record, i''m sure you would agree. And bearing in mind the team is steady getting worse and few of the players are actually our own, where do you think we might end up?

I don''t think i''ve ever got so wound up about posts as some of those on this thread!!!

[nutty nigel 7,528]

[quote user="whoareyou"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="yellow hammer"]The board haven''t worked it out because they lack the know-how to have a succesful team, they lack the intelligence to do so and no one has bought them out and done otherwise beacuse they seemingly have no intention of selling up. When someone became interested they found a thousand reasons not to talk to him and when the Turners showed an interest, it appears their opinions for the future differed enough for the Turners not to want to be a part of it I''m just absolutley astonished that supporters just accept our lot as a p*ss poor football team. I have no doubt that if we carry on with the current owners and CE then we will struggle in League One as well, because team investment is so low on their list of priorites. Exactly my sentiments.[/quote]

So what are you two actually saying? Are you saying that the Turners knew what you two know about running a successful football club but were stopped from giving us that success by that wicked Smith and Jones? I bet there''s plenty of other clubs who would bite their hands off for that sort of knowledge - I wonder where the Turners will end up next.

 

[/quote]

No what i am saying is that it''s patently obvious that Smith and Jones do not have a clue how to begin to get a succesful football team. maybe the Turners thought they had a better way but were told by Smith and Jones that they didn''t like it so would not allow it!

So do all you lot think by some miracle that one day Smith and Jones will finally arrive at the solution to getting a succesful football team? they have had 13 years at getting it right now and have only managed it once in those 13 years. Not a great record, i''m sure you would agree. And bearing in mind the team is steady getting worse and few of the players are actually our own, where do you think we might end up?

I don''t think i''ve ever got so wound up about posts as some of those on this thread!!!

[/quote]

Well you need to take a chill pill because we could go for a long time before we have a successful football team again. There really is no point getting wound up about it. Why do so many people just have to have someone to blame? Is blame the new comfort blanket to help cope with disappointment. Three years ago everyone blamed Worthy, were they right? Or are you now saying it was the board all along. And who is "all you lot"?

If the board are too thick to learn from you why don''t those of you with all the answers share them with one of the 20 or so other clubs who long to be in the Prem. I don''t profees to know all the answers but I''m sure they''re not so simple that us messageboard bods could sort it out otherwise no club would struggle. Or would they.....

 

 

[whoareyou? 0]

I''m only getting wound up by the fact some seem just to accept that we have a rubbish team heading for League One and there is supposedly nothing we can do about it!

Worthington did well for maybe two and half years but outstayed is welcome by another 18 months or so.

If the board had the guts to make the right managerial appointment for the sake of the football side rather than someone Delia can invite round for dinner then just maybe we could have a succesful team again sooner rather than later..or maybe before it is too late and we are entrenched in the lower leagues of english football!

I have very little doubt that we will not be succesful on the pitch again until we have new people running the club!

[ron obvious 1,502]

And who IS the right managerial appointment? If they''d had appointed Jewell instead of Roeder a lot of people would have been wetting themselves in anticipation of glories to come ......  But in the light of his performance at Derby ......BUT, at Norwich, it may have happened. Who''s to say? Why do managers'' records tend to be so variable?Perhaps there''s more luck involved than you''d ever believe.

[|BA 0]

[quote user="whoareyou"]

And have totalled ignored my comment about the £2+ miilion we have had to pay in DEBT repayment this year!

You''ll be very happy watching League One football next season, i bet!

[/quote]I''ve answered that. They dont always get to spend money where they''d like to. Try not paying your credit card off for a few months then ask for a raise on your limit.And if you think our loan repayments are a lot I suggest you check out a few other teams debts. But then if the fans had their way we''d have borrowed more and we''d be making even bigger repayments.I dont get to watch any football, I''m rarely in the country. But good football is good football, sometimes you see it in the Prem, sometimes you see it in League One. I suspect whatn you fear is losing kudos, not good fotball

[Mello Yello 2,289]

Control freaks - who don''t and won''t listen. They don''t think they are accountable, or are that they are in any way to blame for the situation that the club finds itself in.....They just run this ickle club - how they like it to be run.  

We fans, got to choose the colour of the shorts though....marvellyheeuss.[:|] 

[yellow hammer 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="whoareyou"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

[quote user="yellow hammer"]The board haven''t worked it out because they lack the know-how to have a succesful team, they lack the intelligence to do so and no one has bought them out and done otherwise beacuse they seemingly have no intention of selling up. When someone became interested they found a thousand reasons not to talk to him and when the Turners showed an interest, it appears their opinions for the future differed enough for the Turners not to want to be a part of it I''m just absolutley astonished that supporters just accept our lot as a p*ss poor football team. I have no doubt that if we carry on with the current owners and CE then we will struggle in League One as well, because team investment is so low on their list of priorites. Exactly my sentiments.[/quote]

So what are you two actually saying? Are you saying that the Turners knew what you two know about running a successful football club but were stopped from giving us that success by that wicked Smith and Jones? I bet there''s plenty of other clubs who would bite their hands off for that sort of knowledge - I wonder where the Turners will end up next.

 

[/quote]

No what i am saying is that it''s patently obvious that Smith and Jones do not have a clue how to begin to get a succesful football team. maybe the Turners thought they had a better way but were told by Smith and Jones that they didn''t like it so would not allow it!

So do all you lot think by some miracle that one day Smith and Jones will finally arrive at the solution to getting a succesful football team? they have had 13 years at getting it right now and have only managed it once in those 13 years. Not a great record, i''m sure you would agree. And bearing in mind the team is steady getting worse and few of the players are actually our own, where do you think we might end up?

I don''t think i''ve ever got so wound up about posts as some of those on this thread!!!

[/quote]

Well you need to take a chill pill because we could go for a long time before we have a successful football team again. There really is no point getting wound up about it. Why do so many people just have to have someone to blame? Is blame the new comfort blanket to help cope with disappointment. Three years ago everyone blamed Worthy, were they right? Or are you now saying it was the board all along. And who is "all you lot"?

If the board are too thick to learn from you why don''t those of you with all the answers share them with one of the 20 or so other clubs who long to be in the Prem. I don''t profees to know all the answers but I''m sure they''re not so simple that us messageboard bods could sort it out otherwise no club would struggle. Or would they.....

 

 

[/quote]

Nutty - We know little of what motivated the Turners to join the Board as the didn''t do interviews so we have little information to go on. Once they were on the board they invloved themselves in cost control and sorting out the administration and backroom areas from what information about there activities that has been released. So basically the Turners were doing the things that they were good at, which is running a business and no problem with that.

But one thing we do know is that they had no background in football, and there has been a distinct lack of footballing knowledge at board levle. There has clearly been a need to bridge the gap between decisions taken at the football level with decisions taken at the board level.

As Chrisr pointed out a few posts earlier - what is the objective for the board. Is it survival or is it something more ambitious? From this you have to ask yourself, what is the strategy to meet those objectives, and how do you implement that strategy? These are all football-related questions that a director of football sitting on the board is responsible for. It''s all about getting the focus back on to the most important thing - the football - and not getting sidetracked by all the nonfootballing stuff.

As whoyouare says, Delia and Michael do not seem to have a clue how to run a football club. My long post earlier was making the point that they are running the show on motivation alone, and I''m saying attitude, albeit a good attitude, simply isn''t enough to run a project, whether that project is a football club on putting a man on the moon. It''s not rocket science (scuse the pun) but to my mind it''s fairly basic common sense.

Now IBA will tell you a bank will lend you cash for investing in fixed assets but not for investing in a player. If that is a reflection on the current thinking at Carrow Road then someone has really lost the plot. Do twenty-five thousand people turn up on a Saturday to admire the stadium? Sheesh.

OK so right now we are in a hell of a mess. But it can be overcome. And the way to do it is ditch all the non-footballing stuff, sell it off, outsource it, what ever it takes to get it out of the board room and delegated to the suits. Then focus on the football, the footballing objectives, the footballing strategy, the skills required to implement the strategy, the resources required. Simply,  put the football first. Doen''t seem too difficult to me.

 

[whoareyou? 0]

[quote user="IBA"][quote user="whoareyou"]

And have totalled ignored my comment about the £2+ miilion we have had to pay in DEBT repayment this year!

You''ll be very happy watching League One football next season, i bet!

[/quote]

I''ve answered that. They dont always get to spend money where they''d like to. Try not paying your credit card off for a few months then ask for a raise on your limit.

And if you think our loan repayments are a lot I suggest you check out a few other teams debts. But then if the fans had their way we''d have borrowed more and we''d be making even bigger repayments.

I dont get to watch any football, I''m rarely in the country. But good football is good football, sometimes you see it in the Prem, sometimes you see it in League One. I suspect whatn you fear is losing kudos, not good fotball
[/quote]

If they had never borrowed £18 million or whatever it was in the first place, then we would not have had to repay the £2million+ in loan repayments and money for new players could have been taken from the daily cashflow.

To be honest, if you haven''t see City play for a while, i don''t understand how you can make any comments about the footballing side of the club anyway. If you had seen them even just a few times in the last 4 seasons, you would have seen the rapid decline on the pitch that is patently obvious for most to see and will most likely see us playing in League One next season! 

[Mr.Carrow 376]

[quote user="IBA"][quote user="Mr.Carrow"]

You are lacking joined-up thinking IMO IBA.

[/quote]

Not so. As I''ve pointed out in another thread the club cannot spend money where it pleases. We have debts - light compared to many clubs - but debts nonetheless. Borrowing and or re-investing money as we''ll call it cannot always be done where the hearts says to spend it. There are outside considerations that may only ''allow'' that money to be put into hard assets. As you will find Mr C, when you''ve eventually flogged your house to buy the club a player as we agreed you''d do (albeit as a loan which will make you bundles when we resell him at massive profit LOL), you may find yourself a few £k short. Now if you seriously think your bank is going to rub its hands together at the prospect of loaning you money to buy a footballer, you''ll find, I''m afraid, that contrary to your beliefs the figures they will present to you will clearly show that the odds will be stacked way against them ever getting their money back. Hence you''ll be telling them its for an extension.... bricks and morter. Even in the current climate you''re far more likely to get the money for investment into your property than a footballer

So regardless of where any of us thinki the club should be spending, as with so many things in life, it aint that simple.


[/quote]

Absolutely so.  "The club cannot spend money where it pleases", not now it`s run up massive debts to pay for for largely unnecessary infrastructure it can`t.  Who took those decisions again?  You are being deliberately obtuse.

The £34m from sky, the £20m in player sales since relegation, £8m per season in ticket sales (more than some of our rivals overall income), £10m in overall profits announced since relegation are not bank loans IBA.  Yet we began the first season after parachute payments ended with a squad which cost less to assemble than the money brought in by the sale of ONE player- Ashton.

The reason for our decline is absolutely obvious- we have a board which sees investment in the team as dead money and investment in land, offices etc as a safe bet for the future, and with the amount of denial apparent from them and their supporters i can`t see anything changing too soon.

[SNAP 0]

I really glad I started all this now!  The debate has been intelligent, remained generally focused and, if a few of the people who make the decisions were able to spend some time in the company of those who have contributed to this thread maybe, just maybe, we wouldn''t be in this mess!

[PurpleCanary 5,557]

Two points on the original question, “Do the board think they are in any way to

blame?”

Firstly, as a general rule, you cannot assume that because the directors

haven’t said “Sorry!” that they don’t feel responsible. It is a fact of

business life that companies very rarely make outright apologies.

A few years ago the company I worked for (probably one of the two best in the world at

what it did) had to choose a new chief executive (the equivalent of a football

manager) from two main candidates. In my view (and the opinion of most others)

it picked the wrong man. The candidate who lost out went off to the rival

company and prospered. The man chosen lasted four years before being sacked.

Did the company issue a public apology (or even a private one to staff) for the

mistake? Did it h*ll!

Now as to Norwich.

You do occasionally get a coded apology. For example, Roger Munby’s latest

chairman’s report in the annual accounts says:

”The season covered by these accounts is not one that will live long in the

memory for its successes on the field.”

But actions speak louder than words. The fact that the directors have hired two

firms to find a new owner for the club is effectively an admission that they

know they need to be replaced.

[|BA 0]

[quote user="whoareyou"]

If they had never borrowed £18 million or whatever it was in the first place, then we would not have had to repay the £2million+ in loan repayments and money for new players could have been taken from the daily cashflow.

To be honest, if you haven''t see City play for a while, i don''t understand how you can make any comments about the footballing side of the club anyway. If you had seen them even just a few times in the last 4 seasons, you would have seen the rapid decline on the pitch that is patently obvious for most to see and will most likely see us playing in League One next season! 

[/quote]If they hadn''t borrowed the money we''d be in League One now. You think Huckerby would have taken a 50% wage cut because we were a bit short? We run at a loss in any 10 year cycle. Thats a fact of football.. If not for the board we wouldn''t exist. I dont accept that anyone else would have stepped in at the time, I have a little knowledge of what was going on at the end of the Chase area as T07 was at the club at that time.I started going in ''63 though never had a season ticket until 2001 as I''ve never lived within 150 miles of the City. I saw most games from 2001 - 2006 . Even in our promotion season I hated the football, results were nicked, but week after week we were played off the park and it never bode well for the Prem seasonThis season - fair comment, I cant say too much, I saw the Ipswich, Watford and Reading games as I was back in the country and thought we were superb.

[Mr.Carrow 376]

Earlier in the thread you were saying that you cannot get bank loans to put into the playing side (i believe this is true) IBA, now you`re saying that they helped pay for Huckerby and enabled the team to stay out of league 1?!  The loans went on the Jarrold stand, infill, land, access road, new pitch, training facilities for our sh*te team and sundry other off-pitch non-essentials and you know that.

As for "If not for the board we wouldn`t exist", are you saying that Watling would have wound the club up had D and M not stepped in?  I seem to remember Jimmy Jones wanted to get back in at the time as well.