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koimatsuba

The posion Chalace that is the Prem Div ..

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Hi All

Have talked about this before but it seems very strange to me that the clubs near the bottom of the championship are:

Watford, Derby, Southampton, Norwich, Charlton, and even Forest.

In fact out of the bottom 7, 6 have been in the Prem recently or were a very large club in the past (forest).

Is this because the fans of these clubs demand success after the Championship winning/promotion season and then a Season in the Prem? Do the fans demand to beat the teams in the Championship
Thinking that they are above these lower teams? This puts presure on the club and players and manager until something breaks. Also players leave the team for other prem lower league teams and
the whole team spirit is lost. If unlike Birmingham/West Brom the club starts to struggle the fans start to turn on the manager and then the board. This starts off a chain of events and panic sets in, with new managers
and loan players.

Its a tough old time for ex-Prem clubs, I just wonder if the Prem League and promotion can in what looks like 6 cases, actually start to destroy a team and club from within?

We all know that our aim like every Championship club is the Prem League, BUT if we get there we must stay there, we can''t get there and do what worthy did, like sunderland under Mcarthy and
say we are just enjoying the occassion. We must be the Reading and the Hull of our time. If not we will have another 9+ years in reverse.

I know I''m speaking like we are promoted, I was just simulating what can happen.

the Prem league, a target of weath or a poison chalace?

Cheers All

 

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Koimatsuba, your overall point regarding the challenge that the Premiership represents to clubs without significant financial resources is valid. However, I think you may be a little premature in citing clubs such as Reading and Hull as the clubs we need to emulate. Reading spent the best part of the 90''s down in the third level and, while they had one good season in the Premiership the season before last, they then returned to earth last season not finishing much better than Norwich did in 2004/05. While right now it looks like they might be promoted at the end of this season, there''s still a long way to go. Hull had a great start this season and, while they are demonstrating a lot of fight in their Premiership season, they are still only 6 points clear of the relegation zone and their goal differential is comparable to those at the foot of the table.

I believe your overall point is valid and speaks to the tremendous financial challeng of trying to compete in the Premiership for all but a handful of clubs. I see far too many posters on here speaking about the rewards of being in the Premiership but it does not appear to have made much of a positive contribution to clubs you cite such as Watford, Derby, Southampton, Norwich and Charlton, or probably the clubs that will come down at the end of this season. It will also be interesting to see what kind of challenge clubs such as Sunderland and Portsmouth will face on their return to this division, which may happen sooner rather than later.

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Excellent posts.

Yankee, you mention Pompy and Sunderland having a possible thud down. May I throw in a possible third - Blackburn. One of only a handful of clubs to win the first div in the Sky era, but if they go down this season, I think you might see a club in free fall. Small town, small crowds, small resources without Premiership money.

I predict one hell of a Premiership hangover, with the added burden of the inflated expectation syndrome mentioned by Koimatsuba.

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If you want to play "DaVinci Code" with this, maybe Delia Smith is the chalice.  [:D]

But seriously, I was thinking along the same lines today when I looked at the tables.  Several of the recently relegated teams are at the foot of the division, but it is teams like Charlton and Southampton who had several years to enjoy the financial payoff of being in the Prem that are the really shocking ones. We were there for just one year.  About 1/2 the teams in the CCC are the regulars who go up and down frequently, and you''d think they would spend most of their CCC time at least in the top half of the division when they are here, not at the foot, fending off relegation to the 3rd Division.  Not too long ago, it was shocking to see N Forest and Leeds going so far down, but it seems that this may be more of a regular occurance based on the way this season is shaping up.  So the question is, "Why?"  These are generally teams with good histories over the last 30 years, not "one hit wonders" who rose quickly and sank quickly. 

The fact that Man City is considering paying 100 mil for a player adds to this puzzle.  It seems suicidal that any team, even the wealthiest, would consider such an amount.  I mean, even if it works for Man City, is there any chance they will ever recoup the money spent on such a purchase?

In the US, the NBA has a salary cap to prevent such stupid moves.  Baseball does not have a cap, but teams that spend beyond a certain limit must also contribute to an equalization fund so lesser teams have a chance to compete with them.  It certainly works for the NBA as teams like San Antonio Spurs have been winning championships despite being in relatively small markets. Of course, these leagues don''t have the relegation/promotion deal, but local TV and radio money us vastly different from markets like LA and NY compared to KC and Cincinatti, as are the payrolls of the teams from small and big market teams.  The NFL has had revenue sharing for a while, so we can see teams like Green Bay and Indianapolis winning the Super Bowl.  Hell, LA doesn''t even have an NFL team, and hasn''t since the Rams moved to St. Louis (and won a Super Bowl and played in another). 

The money available to established Prem teams is so much more than what newbie promoted teams have, so it takes a really well organized CCC team to be promoted and make something of it.

To counter this, look at the Prem this year (at least so far).  1/2 the division is within relegation zone and it''s into the 2nd half of the season.  Whomever survives, they will thrive for another season, but the 3 relegated, will they drop like Charlton?  Sanity needs to be restored.  I remember years ago how every year one of the promoted teams would storm to the top of the 1st Division, and I always wondered why it was never Norwich.  How many years of the same Top 4 clubs must we endure before something is done to level the playing field?  I hope like hell that Aston Villa manages to crash that party by season''s end.  This exclusive "Boy''s Club" the top 4 have established sucks for the vast majority of fans.

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And confirmation on Radio 5 this morning that Abramovich is looking to get out of Chelsea. He''s lost 25% of his £11b during the economic crisis. Apparently the club has loans totalling £500m

For every up there is a down.....

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[quote user="IBA"]And confirmation on Radio 5 this morning that Abramovich is looking to get out of Chelsea. He''s lost 25% of his £11b during the economic crisis. Apparently the club has loans totalling £500m

For every up there is a down.....[/quote]I for one would be devastated if they had to sell Drogba abroad so we never again got to enjoy his moaning diving horse-faced antics on Match of the Day. I wonder who will attract new investment first - Super Cook or Russian Crook?

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Thanks everyone for you excellent replies.

I agree with mostly all of these posts, this looks like a possilbe very long chat one night in a pub with mates.

Everyone is right something is wrong with club finances and sky tv and wages, the whole system.

Perhaps mr doncaster is right in attempting a wages cap at 4.5million? Currently 8.5 million a year and the 24.5k fans don''t pay the bill!!! Shocking!

Anyway, as with all of this time will tell, clubs will fall and others will get bigger tv deals and flood the market. Lets hope we don''t get brought down too far.

Cheers All, thanks again, a good read.

 

 

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interesting op koi...imo the prem chute payments distort the champs league to such an extent, that if a relegated team blows their competitive advantage over the other champs sides in their first two seasons back, then effectively they are placed in a difficult position...in terms of having to restructure the whole club to reflect the loss of income that relegation entails///unless they have a sugar daddy in charge to fund the shortfall in their operating costs...reshaping your squad in such a dramatic way is a risky business - cos as we know,,,getting new players in isn''t easy and they take time to settle etc...as last season showed, only 1 club went up who enjoyed the benefit of the chute payments - but equally, stoke and hull were funded beyond their normal income by sugar-daddies...obviously,,,and as we all know - the moral of the story is as always - money talks///

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An interesting topic.

Watford, Derby, Charlton, Southampton, Forest . . . I''m not sure you can lump them all together. 

Charlton, Southampton and Forest were not one season wonders so were less well prepared for relegation than a newly promoted side.  But there were other and possibly more significant reasons for their decline.  Charlton and Forest both suffered from successful manager syndrome - as did Leicester - and they imploded when Curbishley, Clough and O''Neill departed.   Southampton were burdened with debt after spending far too much on a lavish stadium more suited to Champions League contenders than Premiership strugglers.  The same applies to Coventry, although they appear to be recovering somewhat.

Derby by their own admission went up too early.  They had a three year plan and went up in the first year.  Too much too soon.  Back to square one for them. 

Watford and Norwich weren''t ready for promotion either - but they probably never would have been.  Lack of focus on the core business seems to afflict both clubs.  Watford sacked Boothroyd just as we sacked Worthy (frying pan/fire Aidy, in case you''re reading this) without appearing to know what to do next - his successor (ex-coach at Chelsea) is showing every sign of being as big a mistake as Grant (ex-coach at West Ham).  You could be forgiven for thinking they''re modelling themselves on us . . . [:$]

Other clubs who went up for a season or two and came back down aren''t struggling.  Palace and Reading are both up for sale if their owners are to be believed (cough) but are making a fair fist of it and so is Sheff U.  Add to that list Sheff W after their sojourn in League 1.  There always seems to be a yoyo club, and right now it''s West Brom.

The only club that''s really cocked it up big time is Leeds, and that was thanks largely to Master Bates. 

So is the Premiership a poisoned chalice?  Not on this evidence.  If you don''t stay up it doesn''t have to be a disaster.

 

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Agree with everything here.  Man City attempting to buy Kaka for £100M represents all that is wrong in the game.  And bearing in mind all that has been said above, are Delia & Co really all that bad?

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