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tpotac

Squad photos - Subtle racism?

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This is something that I have posted before, but I would like to see what other posters think about this.

Looking at the new squad photo, I see - yet again - that the players are positioned according to skin colour. If you check back over the last three seasons (at least) you will see that this is a consistent thing with the squad photograph.

Is it just me, or has anybody else noticed this? Should it be something worth addressing in future? Do the team or the photographer even know that it is happening?

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I think you''re a little guilty of seeing a ''problem'' where there isn''t one, to be honest.

How do you decide where to place players on such a photo? By height? Position played? Time at the Club? It''s just a common device used by photographers - look at any film / theatre / music promotion stills, the subjects are placed to create an image thats easy on the eye. For instance, on a film poster, you wouldn''t position someone like Danny Devito BEHIND a 6''2'' leading man. Does that discriminate against short people?

It''s done simply to create as nice, pleasing and symetrical look. I''m sure if rascism existed among the players / staff at NCFC, we have enough former players (Nielson, Akinbiyi, Fox, Beckford to name just a few.....) who would have said something by now!

Don''t go looking for problems that don''t exist.

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Where is this team photo? I see a mention of it on the official site (something about Terry Butcher''s uncle?!) but no photo. Or is this from the Preview mag?

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Just one question tpotac. How exactly does positioning the players so that the picture is symmetrical equate to racism - subtle or otherwise?

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This post is quality.

I used to be involved in Sociology, during which time I studied racism in various capacities. I have to say that this analysis of norwich city team photos over the last few seasons with a conclusion of racism via the positioning of players of afro-caribbean minority ethnic group is nothing short of genius. Pure genius.

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Here:

[link]http://www.pinkun.com/Content/ncfc/thesquad/2004-2005/default.asp[/link]

Nice to see a lot less backroom staff in it to make up the numbers like last season''s photo...

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tpotac....you are having a wind up...please say yes, if not there''s a big wide world out there full of bigotry and racism go look trust me you''rl see it, but on squad photo''s get real!!!!

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Mr R - I think he was suggesting that the white players have been arranged so that their number are symmetrical about the centre of the photo.

I think it may be heighist as well - all the shorter players are on the front row.

Ama

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Disgraceful, outrageous. And look at the poor guys in white shirts spread evenly round the side of the picture. Clear albino racism.

Please say this is a wind up, and a poor one at that.

Any photographers out there want to comment? I would have thought it was a pretty standard technique for pro shots.

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I don''t think there''s anything racist about the photo. The squad rows appear to ordered according to height.

I have to say they could have done a better job of avoiding the reflection in the glass above the squad. Reads Norwich City backwards.

Hope that isn''t a sign of things to come...........................

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I agree - and while we are at it - can we please have more diversity in the positioning of the coloured shirts - it is discriminating against the yellow shirts to have then surrounding the green shirts - makes them seem less important somehow. And, why are all the taller players at the back?? Isn''t that discrimination as well? And the white shirts - what is THAT all about!!!!

In fact - while we are at it - do they have to have different coloured shirrts - they so clash with the grass!!

Where are the women? Disabled players?

Discrimination is a serious problem - don''t fight the stupid battles where it really does not exist!!!!

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I have to admit that I did notice the positioning of the black players in the team photo when I saw it on yesterday''s back page, and did for a moment think "Hang on...". But it was probably the photographer''s idea of producing a balanced composition rather than any dubious intent.

Personally I was more interested in trying to see if there was any truth in the claims that Mulryne had become slimmer-of-the-year, but it''s hard to tell when they''re all sitting down.

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I realise why you all laugh at the suggestion of racism but I think what the poster is trying to say is that to put the black players symtricaly in the photo line up is to recognise a difference between them and the white players which is, i a way, wrong! However to this end there are no negative consequences but it is interesting to note that the team photographer see''s a difference between the black players and the white players. This does not make te football club or the photographer racist

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But the photographer places tall players at the back and shorter ones at the front. Symmetry in a photo is legitimate and an important part of getting it right. Players are picked out for different characteristics, not for race. This photo looks nicer because ceratin players are placed where they are for whatever reason that may be. The difference is subtle but this sort of tripe just exacerbates the problem of racsism. As a poster above pointed out it could be heightist, shirtist, haircutist, managementist, goalkeeperist. Hear hear Canary Wench and Bayern Eunach.

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But there is a difference!! Some of our players have black skin, some white!!

Even if it is done deliberately, why does it matter? If there were 22 black players and four white then the white people would be strategically placed. Of course. It looks nice.

It''s people that tip-toe around making excuses and using stupid words like "coloured" (aren''t we all?) and pointing out pointless things like this that cause a problem. I have shown this thread to the two black guys in my office, and they''re still laughing now!!

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Now feelings appear to have cooled a little, perhaps I am allowed the right to reply. This is going to be a long one since there were an number of points raised.

I look at it from this point of view:

Suppose that I am asked to photograph the staff at my place of work. My colleagues, in all truth, are from a diversity of countries and ethnic backgrounds. I decide to position my colleagues according to their skin colour be it black (yes I can use the word) or white, or whatever.

If a colleague was to ask me why I was doing it in that particular way do you think I could justify it on the grounds of some of the arguments that we have seen here? Lets see, that could be ... it''s OK to do so because:

1. It makes for a more aesthetically pleasing image to have you arranged (symmetrically) according to your skin colour. I note that three other posters made mention of the symmetrical arrangement of the players, something that I did not do.

2. I have no life, or I need therapy. (I''ll keep away from the personal stuff - hopefully that will encourage others to do likewise - I do not feel that I have the right to judge any of you based upon what little I read of your lives.)

3. Your arguments are nothing more than PC rubbish.

4. It''s OK providing that there are just as many men and women, white shirts/ yellow shirts in the photograph, and that any arguments relating to skin colour are insignificant because these facts are obviously more relevant than the one you are trying to raise. (True! There is an absence of women in the photograph but that''s probably mainly down to FIFA. There is nothing like the old political tactic of avoiding the issue when trying to justify one''s argument. It ensures that the question that was raised doesn''t have to be answered one way or the other.) I don''t seem to remember the UK having laws relating to discrimination on the grounds of shirt colour or height, or have things really changed that much. ("Nanny State" and all that.)

If I used these arguments as a basis for my action how long do you think I would be in a job?

Those of you who are confident in your assertions that there is no problem might like to take a sample of opinions at your work place (can I suggest a sample size greater than 2?). Run the same scenario by them. Offer to take a group photo and then arrange them according to skin colour so that you get a "nice" photograph, one that is "pleasing on the eye". If you have courage in your convictions, I am sure that you will have no problem telling your colleagues what you are doing, why you are doing it and justifying it by using any or all of the arguments that have been posted as to why it is OK to do so.

May I stress that I have no evidence that this is something that anybody who was taking/taking part in the photo was necessarily aware of, neither was I accusing named individual or organisation of racism. I was simply raising a question as to whether anybody here was also aware of it, whether it should be of any concern to us, the club or anybody involved in the taking of these photographs. I would hope that if we were to see a friend doing something that we or others may find unacceptable that we would make some sort of intervention. My one regret is that perhaps I was indiscrete enough to do so on a public forum. For that I apologise.

As for time studying this stuff. Well how long does it take to look at a picture? I first noticed it two seasons ago (02-03). While sorting through some old stuff, I stumbled across both the team photos for 92-93 and 95-96 (I think) and I noticed it there too. Sure enough, the squad photos from 03-04 and 04-05 also have used the same "aesthetic" idea. Humans are naturals at spotting patterns, and are more aware of those patterns once they are recognised. It''s a bit like the optical illusions that can be one thing or another.

As to whe

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tpotac, your response is on the basis that the photograph you hypothetically took was arranged on the grounds of skin colour. Therefore, all the responses you have quoted become distorted by this reasoning.

There is no indication, becasue we cant ask him, that the NCFC photographer put the players in BECAUSE of their race. I would hope very much that this would not be the case.

The arguments posted by other users suggest alternative reasons, such as height, balance of picture, for the overall positioning.

Your arguments on height, for example, were in force as recently as this decade, when for example the City of London Police kept a height restriction on applicants. In fact, all forces used to have a height limit. This was revoked because of the need to attract people who were equally capable but werent 5''8, and to address ethnic minority recruiting where by virtue of race not everyone is above 5''8 anyway. It doesnt stop anyone doing the job effectively.

Whilst clearly a provoking question to begin with Im not sure anyone would have noticed the photo to this degree, had the issue not been raised. There is clearly a need to identify racist incidents, which cannot be tolerated. The definition given by the McPherson report tells us that a racist incident is such if it is considered racist by any person.

By this definition, on your belief, it is a racist incident. By other peoples beliefs, it is not.

I have held off replying to this thread as perception is an absolute minefield. Disregarding wider social trends and political correctness, I cant help feeling that this has highlighted alleged ''differences'' by way of race where otherwise we would be enjoying an impressive squad picture regardless of who is standing where.

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Good grief. If you are helping to stamp out racism (which is laudable and to be supported) I humbly suggest that there are perhaps other more constructive things you could be doing than stirring things up over this photo.

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I can''t believe this thread is still rumbling on,tpotac please take your pseudo-political ramblings to a forum more suited to this kind of thing,and as i said in my previous reply there is enough racism and bigotry out there without trying to invent it out of an innocuous photo.

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I just took a look at the photo and yes the players are arranged according to skin colour, there''s no doubt about that, I suppose it depends on the angle you take on this - have 5 black guys been arranged among 30 white guys or have the 30 white guys been arranged among the 5 black guys? and what''s more - whats Holty doing on the end with his red hair? lets have him in the center next time to keep the colours balanced!!

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