Mulryne to become a priest...

[ron obvious 1,502]

I wondered what on Earth (or heaven!) could keep a thread about Mulryne going for 4 pages ........ I suppose I should have guessed!With all due respect to VIYAG, the central philosophy behind Christianity started with the Ancient Greeks, if not before. I cannot see the relationship between the Old & New Testaments; the former is the mythical interpretation of the Jews, the latter an interpretation of the teachings of a Jewish prophet by several sources removed in time from the original events.Reference to scripture can be used to justify virtually any course of action - particularly the Old Testament.But, for me, the insurmountable problem is that you cannot choose between any of the religions in any rational way. Ultimately you can only rely on belief, so it becomes an appeal to authority - which means my authority, because no two people have exactly the same concept of God.God. There''s a problem. What is meant by God? A creator? Quite conceivable. But one who cares for each & every one of us? Not as far as I can see. A just God? With totally innocent children dying from natural events, while murderers live to a ripe old age? Hmmm ....I still have this suspicion, though. Strange moments of epiphany. But I don''t pretend to have a clue what it''s all about . I suppose I''m a mystic. I certainly wouldn''t ask anyone to follow a course of action that I couldn''t provide a rational explanation for.Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.             - Ludwig Wittgenstein -

[plan b 0]

took so to write that last bit that i didn''t see this being added Thus if England had been under the rule of a religion with more focus

on vengeance and justice than on love and forgivness (as Iran is) it

would have led to a very different nation today - than the one we have

which is hewn from a Judeo-Christian rock.i said earlier VIYAG, that you should air your views but that remark is absolutley abhorent. christianity is littered throughout history with intolerance, murder and vengeance, even in this country until only a few hundred years ago some of our laws would seem extreme compared to iran today because of the religious beliefs at the time. the only reason that things like capital punishment and torture is no longer tolerated is because of enlightenment, not because of christianity.

[dugh 0]

Let''s face it, early Christianity ruled with a fear-based subjugation. If you sin now, you''ll pay in the roaring flames of hell - so behave! Oh, and if it suits me, I allow you absolution if you confess. It suited those in power to keep the masses well healed in with the threat of eternal damnation.Thankfully this is no longer the case, in the west at least. Christianity has a lot to answer for and there is no way that my personal modus operandi is in any way a ''result'' of the lessons I''ve learned from this nation''s far from illustrious religious heritage.

[Dean Coneys boots 1,400]

Hold your horses. My point was a philosophical one and I did not say we would be WORSE only DIFFERENT. As indeed Iranian attitudes differ to Western. Not placing value on them one way or an other.

Secondly whilst evil has been performed ''under the banner of all religions and none'' (Pol Pot, Stalin etc) true Christians have not partaken. ie Mother Theresa, S. Peter, S. Augustine etc one needs to differentiate between people of faith and people of religion here.

Thirdly I would point out that enlightentment was a Christian movement and that the greatest campaigners for abolition of slavery and death penalty were...you have guessed it!

Please do not confuse a philisophical point (that our moral understanding is the offspring of our Christian heritage in this land) with a reflection of values. Indeed looking at many families in the Muslim world compared to ours perhaps they have much to teach us.

[Dean Coneys boots 1,400]

The voice of one who has never experienced the healing nature of fromal confession and absolution.

[ron obvious 1,502]

[quote user="the artist formerly known as VIYAG"]

Hold your horses. My point was a philosophical one and I did not say we would be WORSE only DIFFERENT. As indeed Iranian attitudes differ to Western. Not placing value on them one way or an other.

Secondly whilst evil has been performed ''under the banner of all religions and none'' (Pol Pot, Stalin etc) true Christians have not partaken. ie Mother Theresa, S. Peter, S. Augustine etc one needs to differentiate between people of faith and people of religion here.

Thirdly I would point out that enlightentment was a Christian movement and that the greatest campaigners for abolition of slavery and death penalty were...you have guessed it!

Please do not confuse a philisophical point (that our moral understanding is the offspring of our Christian heritage in this land) with a reflection of values. Indeed looking at many families in the Muslim world compared to ours perhaps they have much to teach us.

[/quote]Not True Christians according to you, but every inch True Christians by their own lights. So you''re appealing to authority again. Not persuaded I''m afraid.

[plan b 0]

[quote user="the artist formerly known as VIYAG"]

Hold your horses. My point was a philosophical one and I did not say we would be WORSE only DIFFERENT. As indeed Iranian attitudes differ to Western. Not placing value on them one way or an other.

Secondly whilst evil has been performed ''under the banner of all religions and none'' (Pol Pot, Stalin etc) true Christians have not partaken. ie Mother Theresa, S. Peter, S. Augustine etc one needs to differentiate between people of faith and people of religion here.

Thirdly I would point out that enlightentment was a Christian movement and that the greatest campaigners for abolition of slavery and death penalty were...you have guessed it!

Please do not confuse a philisophical point (that our moral understanding is the offspring of our Christian heritage in this land) with a reflection of values. Indeed looking at many families in the Muslim world compared to ours perhaps they have much to teach us.

[/quote]you cant pick and choose who you think were ''true christians'' when you want to explain away evil crimes,   "oh, those naughty spanish inquisition types, executing and torturing hundreds of thousands of people who didn''t believe what they believed, they weren''t real christians so we cant be blamed for that, and as for all of those silly vicars and priests who get up to no good, they are not really proper religious like me so dont include them as religious either",  i am sure that they all thought of themselves as true christians and sorry, but if you want to accept acknowledgement for good people like mother theresa then  you have to accept that others in your association can do evil things too. and its debateable if people like wiberforce did things because of religion, if it is then its a sorry state of affairs, its like he was being forced to do something, i would like to think that he did it because it was the right thing to do.but if you want to play top trumps with rights and wrongs, i bet for every religious person who has done some good i bet i could name another who has done something very bad.    

[Chunky Norwich 0]

Goodness me, I feel like I''ve wondered onto an IMDB board here. All we need now is an argument over who''s the better country out of America and Great Britain (it''s Great Britain, just for the record).

''The Artist...'' has never been anything but considerate and well-spoken on here with a passion for NCFC so it''s quite upsetting to see him getting a bashing for something that is an integral part of his life and, amongst other things, being indirectly called a paedophile. Vicar, you have my utmost respect and admiration for the way you have handled yourself from the disgusting comments.

[Dean Coneys boots 1,400]

Sorry but you CAN differentiate between Christians. That is the whole point of Saints. The minute you twist doctrines to cause harm to others then you have broken the teachings of Christ and are thus a BAD Christian in need of redemption, perhaps even conversion. Take Henry VIII - he claimed to be Christian but in reality used religion to hijack protestantism in order to rob the Catholic church of its fortune and take control....I think this gives a glimpse to all claims that religion harms people...truth is people hurt people and if tey can abuse faith to give them an excuse they will....but they are a million miles from the truly faithful who offer prayerful lives in obedience of God. Put simply anyone who truly follows the teaching of the Christian church will become something wholesome and amazing...that cannot necessarily be said of someone who follows their own creeds, though they MAY end up nice people.

 

[Jerzy Krukowski 5]

[quote user="Chunky Norwich"]

Goodness me, I feel like I''ve wondered onto an IMDB board here. All we need now is an argument over who''s the better country out of America and Great Britain (it''s Great Britain, just for the record).

''The Artist...'' has never been anything but considerate and well-spoken on here with a passion for NCFC so it''s quite upsetting to see him getting a bashing for something that is an integral part of his life and, amongst other things, being indirectly called a paedophile. Vicar, you have my utmost respect and admiration for the way you have handled yourself from the disgusting comments.

[/quote]Oh behave. The vicar is not getting a bashing, he''s been asked some serious questions about a topic that affects us all. Frankly, this kind of response is typical when anyone dares to question religion. People expect to be questionned on political, scientific views etc, why is religion somehow exempt from being challanged? I''m a scientist, it''s an integral part of my life, but I wouldn''t suggest no-one can challange my views because of that. No-one has seriously suggested the vicar is a paedophile.

[Chunky Norwich 0]

"Dont forget the choirboy perks [;)]"

I AM behaving; it''s just a shame that a lot of other people don''t appear to be. The point I was trying to make was that this is a FOOTBALL forum not a theological-debating one. The Vicar did not start this thread but merely explained that he does a lot of work with his job. What''s the problem with that? If Gary Holt decided to become a scientist and someone with no experience said it was an easy job which doesn''t take much brainpower, I''d fully support you SPat if you refuted these claims. What followed after that was, in my opinion, digusting.

I actually am an atheist - reading too much Dawkins did that to me - but it does sadden me when other atheists feel the need to really shout down those who are religious and as nice as The Vicar. I don''t like morris dancing, reality TV shows or lemon but I wouldn''t kick off at someone else who mentioned that they did.

How would anyone else on here respond if I made a joke about ''when you''re on your deathbed...''?

[Jerzy Krukowski 5]

[quote user="Chunky Norwich"]

"Dont forget the choirboy perks [;)]"

I AM behaving; it''s just a shame that a lot of other people don''t appear to be. The point I was trying to make was that this is a FOOTBALL forum not a theological-debating one.

The Vicar did not start this thread but merely explained that he does a lot of work with his job. What''s the problem with that? If Gary Holt decided to become a scientist and someone with no experience said it was an easy job which doesn''t take much brainpower, I''d fully support you SPat if you refuted these claims. What followed after that was, in my opinion, digusting.

I actually am an atheist - reading too much Dawkins did that to me - but it does sadden me when other atheists feel the need to really shout down those who are religious and as nice as The Vicar. I don''t like morris dancing, reality TV shows or lemon but I wouldn''t kick off at someone else who mentioned that they did.

How would anyone else on here respond if I made a joke about ''when you''re on your deathbed...''?

[/quote]True it''s a football forum, but sometimes it''s more interesting and fun to talk about other things. It''s all about opinions, but the choirboy perks was obviously a joke and not one followed up by anyone trying to make a serious point. Also, I expect that most people are happy to accept that being a vicar involves many things, some of which are admirable and probably hard work. The debate hasn''t really been about the job of a vicar, but about the views that underpin the job. It''s not really personal to the vicar, but his suggstion that our accepted moral stance is a product of christianity (and used an offensive unsubstantiated anecdote about Africans as some kind of evidence) is, in my opinion, disgusting.  

[Dean Coneys boots 1,400]

Aaw thanks Chunky!

[Mutley 74]

Great debate...christian ministers work as hard as anyone out there and christian churches in the UK provide more voluntary hours into their communities than any other organisation.....fact!This discussion has certainly more interesting than what we have been watching at Carrow Road this season.Jesus still changes lives! If you have the courage try out the following sites:http://www.needgod.com/001.shtml http://www.lookingforgod.com/ Perhaps we will need some divine inspiration to get through to round 4?

[Herb 0]

[quote user="the artist formerly known as VIYAG"]

Indeed looking at many families in the Muslim world compared to ours perhaps they have much to teach us.

[/quote]You say that, but a few posts earlier you were saying this:[quote user="the artist formerly known as VIYAG"]

Thus if England had

been under the rule of a religion with more focus on vengeance and

justice than on love and forgivness (as Iran is) [/quote]

So which is it? Is Islam itself focused on vengeance or is it some people''s interpreation of it that''s the problem? Because that sounds a lot to me like you''re tarring anyone who practices that particular faith with a rather nasty brush.Besides, the Bible was indoctrinating suggestable people with vengeance and much worse a long time before Islam was even thought of. Look, I don''t have a problem with any of you who follow religious teachings. I have noticed though that the problems seem to occur when it becomes a p*ssing contest between faiths.One thing I do know about organised religion of all flavours is they become a lot less popular the more access people have to education - in poor countries they seem to thrive - coincidence?

[The Saturday Boy 0]

[quote user="the artist formerly known as VIYAG"]

(stupid argument as it is an invented scenario).

[/quote]Dangerous thing to say when arguing with an atheist mate! I''m an Atheist myself but do appreciate the good work done by many churches/religous organisations (christian and non christian alike). It''s just the amount of wealth and land still held by the church I have a problem with!!

[Dean Coneys boots 1,400]

So if problems occur when religions hold peeing competitions please explain the following:

1) Why do geneocides equally occur under secular governments: Pol Pot, Stalin, current Zimbabwe president,

2) Why are NONE of the official faith leaders sanctioning the fighting in Gaza? From where I stand the trouble is political - secular Israeli government fighting for territory with Palestinians. I do not see the Pope sanctioning warfare anywhere either- nor Jonathon Sachs, Jewish faith leader, again it is politicans and human issues causing strife. Most Christians are actually found working for Red Cross/missionary organisations trying to get medicine and provisions to a desperately wounded people on the ground.

And if atheism is so superior to Christianity and morally as good - as many are suggesting:

1) Please name me just ONE example of atheists offering community care with their own resources and without state involvment.

Today I helped my church in the lunch club it runs for the elderly, I sat on a committee meeting for the preschool it set up for the town''s poorest children becuase no one else cared enough, later this week I will help with the youth group we have set up to cater to the young....I could go on. But this sort of community help is offered daily in most parishes in the land and not once have I encountered atheists caring neough about others to do the same...

It is easy to be smug and critical. It is easy to try and bubble burst- putting forward arguments but not really wanting to hear answers. It is much harder to try to live out a living faith that brings light and life to a broken world whilst also trying to work out your own issues, conflicts and inconsistencies.

[macdougalls perm 0]

Not taking either side here, but I think that he meant that the problems with religion occur when it becomes a peeing competition between two faiths, not that all of the world''s problems stem from this.  

[Lord Flashheart 0]

[quote user="the artist formerly known as VIYAG"]

1) Please name me just ONE example of atheists offering community care with their own resources and without state involvment.

[/quote]I wish not to get involved with this debate as I spend all day mulling it over whilst I''m studying religious philosophy, but I would like to point out that the UEA Atheist Society hold fundraisers and other charity events off their own back for the benefit of the local community. We do so because we, just like you, care about the wellbeing of others. We too have morals. [:)]

[Dean Coneys boots 1,400]

Ok McDougal please name me a conflict in this world which is currently being fought by Christians clashing with other religions. Please show how offical churches are backing the conflict as well. Name me the instances where the Vatican has given approval to taking up arms in the last -say - three decades.

As to my reference of Islam as a faith based on justice and vengeance I will not detract the comment. It might be politically correct to pretend all religions are the same but it does not stand up to scrutiny. Islam DOES have a greater emphasis on justice and vengeance-as does Judaism (eye for an eye) than Christianity. Which is why we do not always understand the Muslim mind set. It is what leads to Jihad- a phenomenon unknown in Christianity. Who kows- as a Christian I might not only think that  some faiths are different - I personally might even believe one to be true - which by logic makes others false. But that in no way means I lose respect for other faiths nor that I do not seek to work alongside and tolerate its adherents. Indeed my Christian faith encourages me to love all those I disagree with (again in contrast to certain other faiths). Finally I would point out that Christian martyrs are those whose lives were taken- wheras Muslim martyrs seem to be those willing to take life. A crucial and fundamental difference from where I am standing.

I know such views are controversial as they break PC rules but there you have it.,

Ultimately and to close my participation in this debate. I do not much care if you beleive or not. I fully support your right to no beleif or even different belief. I fully back a Muslim to disagree with the comments posted above- indeed I expect them too. But I simply ask that we respect one another and embrace our differences. What this post has- once again- revealed is that many on this board have little to NO respect for Christianity, indeed some seem to loathe it. When i weigh up its contribution to this nation and our ociety I find that slightly sad and bewildering. Why do you hate it so?

[Mr Brownstone 0]

"I simply ask that we embrace one another and embrace our differences" A wonderful sentiment VIYAG, and the world would be a better place if it happened. Isn''t it a shame that certain figureheads of major religions, the Pope for instance, don''t share your views. Comments such as his recent remarks about ridding mankind of homosexuality being of equal importance as the destruction of the rainforests are quite franky ridiculous. He should not be allowed to hold such a position of power. How anyone can honestly believe that stopping 2 men sleeping together is as important as stopping the lungs of our planet being ripped out is beyond me. This is a perfect example of the problem people have with religion, when people see influential religious figures using their positions to suit their personal agendas and trying to get the masses to adopt these agendas it breeds contempt for religion. Whilst i hold no religious beliefs myself, i respect the right of anyone to believe whatever they like, but it saddens me to see someone abusing their position in such a manner.

[macdougalls perm 0]

I don''t think that it can''t be described in as simple terms as that, but in my opinion oppositional religious ideology is related to many of the world''s current conflicts in many complicated ways. In my opinion, religion can have many different effects according to context. 

By that, I mean that I think that there is the type of Christianity that you are talking about, a set of moral values and sense of community that gives comfort and meaning to the lives of many individuals, informed petitioning against slavery during the C18th and that inspires the great work that people like your good self do, but to suggest that this well-meaning ideology can''t be or hasn''t been appropriated to legitimate some appalling acts is unrealistic in my opinion.       

[dugh 0]

[quote user="the artist formerly known as VIYAG"]

1)... Please name me just ONE example of atheists offering community care with their own resources and without state involvment...

2)...It is what leads to Jihad- a phenomenon unknown in Christianity...

[/quote]1) School Governors2) Crusades?

[plan b 0]

"Please name me just ONE example of atheists offering community care with their own resources and without state involvment."now you have totally lost it, I doubt there are many organisations in the world with as much resources, assets, property and wealth as the church, and you do get state involvement, subsidies and donations. and there are literally hundreds of thousands of charities who have no tie to any religion who offer community care to all, regardless of sexual and religious orientation, which is more than could be said of the church.this sort of community help is offered daily in most parishes in the

land and not once have I encountered atheists caring neough about

others to do the same...    now you are being really insulting to suggest that aetheists do no charity work, in fact it is rather ignorant, you said before you that you didn''t come on here anymore because people had a go at you because you are a vicar, i dont think so, i reckon its because you are a narrow minded idiot.It is much harder to try to live out a living faith that brings light

and life to a broken world whilst also trying to work out your own

issues, conflicts and inconsistencies.at last i agree with you, you have plenty of issues, conflicts and inconsistencies, might  i suggest that you work them out without trying to live out a living faith, try doing it living your own life.i am sorry if i seemed aggresive to you there, but in those last few posts you have just demonstrated the kind of sanctimonious rubbish that i despise about all people who preach,but anyway,.....about this mulryne fella..., now where was i?