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Doncaster vs Ridsdale on a salary cap for the CCC - The Guardian.

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Ridsdale - "In football, as in the private sector, it is up to the board of directors and shareholders to run their organisation in a responsible and proper manner, not a central authority."Wikipedia - "Under Ridsdale''s stewardship the club borrowed £60m against future gate receipts, effectively gambling on Leeds qualifying for the Champions League in successive seasons, which they failed to do."[8-)]

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i cant agree with risdale becuase he is an idiot,but a wage cap like doncaster is suggesting is imo not practical and would be floored. say a club has big succes in the championship with external funding ( gifts, fundraising events etc etc ) that would mean that season they could have a wage bill worked out on percentage of turnover of say 10 milllion. the next season though the club may not get the same income due to various reasons and due to the reduced turnover the percentage could only allow a wage bill of 6 million. Now the club would have to get rid of players to reduce the wage bill by 4 million this could result in lots of problems

like;

- the club may not be able to sell players

- if the club cant sell, they will have to terminate contracts to release players but this would result in pay offs to players

- what will the penalties be for clubs who exceed wage threshold?

- how long do teams get to reduce their wage bills if turnover changes?

there just a few of the problems and like borrow-dale says the whole idea would result in a group of teams being constantly above the others in the championship. a wage cap is needed but i feel to pleas every one it will be a very complicated system that will constantly be questioned

excellent debate

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Surely this would be based on turnover such as gate receipts and merchandising which can be accurately tracked and accounted for. I wouldn''t have thought gifts and directors loans would form part of this.  I''m split on this to be honest, part of me thinks its a free market so you should be able to do as you please but the other half says this is not sustainable and something needs to be done.  As the ''Man'' states this week players should really only be on top dollar if they are in the Prem, Championship players on £1000''s a week is quite frankly stupid. 

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I am for it infact I would like to see far reaching changes like limited squad size and a quota of developed players.Just look at the NFL in the USA there are rich teams but so many teams get to win the big one and the competition is better for it.

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I believe a wage cap should be placed. I think it should be based on several different factors:a) Gate receipts.b) Club turnover.c) League position (promotion and relegation).d) Accademy position.If you tie all of this into the other proposals by Platini which would see no player under the age of 18 able to transfer between clubs and that once 18 they automatically recieve a three year contract.I think that the above factors would also incurage clubs to be competative in other ways too such as accademy league results and trying to get the best out of their accademies which may in turn see more British homegrown tallent produced.League position already grants you money but if the wage cap was slightly different for each say - half of the league then it would also throw more importance into finishing top half and bottom half."The government does not tell board members at Tesco how much money they can spend on their staff so why should Championship

clubs be placed under the same pressure? In football, as in the private

sector, it is up to the board of directors and shareholders to run

their organisation in a responsible and proper manner, not a central

authority." - Ridsdale.People question our majority shareholders but this sort of attitude is what saw Leeds go bust. If tesco goe bust they either get baught out by another supermarket chain or we just change where we shop to Carl Cort''s ASDA or Morrisons etc. If a football club goes bust you don''t see another football club come in to bail them out (apart from MK Dons!) and the fans don''t switch alliegencies like that.I think it''s funny that you have people at this club who are questioned about their loyalty to football and the fans when you have someone like Ridsdale who is quite clearly only interested in money and he doesn''t seem very calculated with it at that.As I have mentioned before the American system is that each team is allowed a "star" player which can be paid outside of the sallery cap. Beckham is this at LA Galaxy. You could also use this as an incentive also. So for the teams that finnish in say the Champions League places and UEFA cup places gain an additional "star" slot to their standard one or however many is deemed fair for a top half premiership team. You could also give the same reward out to the Carling Cup finalists and FA Cup finalists to re-ignite their competativeness. If you were feeling generous you could allow the highest placing club of each league the same privelage.However for this to truly work you would have to look at getting it in place as a European ruling otherwise you would see what has happened in the past when English clubs have struggled as a group to offer the best wages and some teams like Monaco abroad have been able to attract players purely for offering better wages.I agree with Doncaster in that for the good of the game something has to be done to address the massive gulf between the premiership and the football league and the fact that some clubs are honest and hard working where as others have been swept off their feet by sugar dadies who is taking everyone for a ride.

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[quote user="chicken"]I believe a wage cap should be placed. I think it should be based on several different factors:

a) Gate receipts.
b) Club turnover.
c) League position (promotion and relegation).
d) Accademy position.

If you tie all of this into the other proposals by Platini which would see no player under the age of 18 able to transfer between clubs and that once 18 they automatically recieve a three year contract.

I think that the above factors would also incurage clubs to be competative in other ways too such as accademy league results and trying to get the best out of their accademies which may in turn see more British homegrown tallent produced.

League position already grants you money but if the wage cap was slightly different for each say - half of the league then it would also throw more importance into finishing top half and bottom half.

"The government does not tell board members at Tesco how much money they can spend on their staff so why should Championship clubs be placed under the same pressure? In football, as in the private sector, it is up to the board of directors and shareholders to run their organisation in a responsible and proper manner, not a central authority." - Ridsdale.

People question our majority shareholders but this sort of attitude is what saw Leeds go bust. If tesco goe bust they either get baught out by another supermarket chain or we just change where we shop to Carl Cort''s ASDA or Morrisons etc. If a football club goes bust you don''t see another football club come in to bail them out (apart from MK Dons!) and the fans don''t switch alliegencies like that.

I think it''s funny that you have people at this club who are questioned about their loyalty to football and the fans when you have someone like Ridsdale who is quite clearly only interested in money and he doesn''t seem very calculated with it at that.

As I have mentioned before the American system is that each team is allowed a "star" player which can be paid outside of the sallery cap. Beckham is this at LA Galaxy. You could also use this as an incentive also. So for the teams that finnish in say the Champions League places and UEFA cup places gain an additional "star" slot to their standard one or however many is deemed fair for a top half premiership team. You could also give the same reward out to the Carling Cup finalists and FA Cup finalists to re-ignite their competativeness. If you were feeling generous you could allow the highest placing club of each league the same privelage.

However for this to truly work you would have to look at getting it in place as a European ruling otherwise you would see what has happened in the past when English clubs have struggled as a group to offer the best wages and some teams like Monaco abroad have been able to attract players purely for offering better wages.

I agree with Doncaster in that for the good of the game something has to be done to address the massive gulf between the premiership and the football league and the fact that some clubs are honest and hard working where as others have been swept off their feet by sugar dadies who is taking everyone for a ride.
[/quote]

Three quick points.

1. It would be good to get an input from our American friends on salary and related matters.

2. UK would have to join the Euro for an effective European-wide system, one suspects. 

3. Do sugar mummies behave the same way as sugar daddies?

OTBC

 

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[quote user="lincoln canary"]- the club may not be able to sell players[/quote]

If it is based on a player to player basis rather than a pool of money to be split over the team it should  be fine. Looking at what you have said that a club has say £6mil and then are cut due to shrinking gates etc to £4mil they would struggle. I don''t see it being quite as hard and fast as that. I see it more as standard sallery cap for players in a team in the top half of the championship being £2500,00 a week, if the club can not afford to pay all of its players that ceiling amount they don''t have to, they can pay less. Should they do well and say make the play-offs but fail to go up the league could reward them with say and addition level of cap so now the club can attract / retain players by offering them contracts of up to say £2750,00 a week. Again if they can not afford to give this to anyone they don''t have to - its a ceiling.

[quote user="lincoln canary"]- if the club cant sell, they will have to terminate contracts to release players but this would result in pay offs to players [/quote]

Not if you wrote clauses into the contracts that said that if the team failed to maintain its current position or better that the players cap may reduce. Lets face it players should earn their cash and if the team they are in does not finish as highly as last season they have still had a season on a higher wage. I don''t think it is entirely unfair, it may even encentivise the players that do it for money to actually give a damn. To add to that you could always give "grace" periods to clubs so that if they are relegated they have say two seasons to reduce their squads cap to that of an acceptable level.

[quote user="lincoln canary"]- what will the penalties be for clubs who exceed wage threshold?[/quote]

Simple - if you go on the idea that you only have one player who is allowed to be paid outside of a standard wage cap then if they have more than one the player can not be played unless he agrees to a drop in wages. Or that only one such player may be in a match day squad. This would motivate the player to either drop his wages or get his agent onto it!

[quote user="lincoln canary"]- how long do teams get to reduce their wage bills if turnover changes?[/quote]

As above I think a period of a season is enough - from the end of one season until the end of the summer after the next. That gives two long summer transfer windows along with January. I think this is where the loan system could be re-invented. Players out on loan only count towards the wage cap the total the owning club still pays their wages for. So if a player goes out on loan and the club that loans them pays all of their wages then they do not count as being part of the wage cap for the owning club.

[quote user="lincoln canary"]there just a few of the problems and like borrow-dale says the whole idea would result in a group of teams being constantly above the others in the championship. a wage cap is needed but i feel to pleas every one it will be a very complicated system that will constantly be questioned[/quote]

But if you reward clubs in more ways than just turnover etc then you are actually looking at incentivising the clubs. As many have said the buisiness model or club turnover should not be the only factor. Look at Crewe - for years they have produced tallent but when you consider their turnover and club size outside of player sales then they seem to get little reward for their efforts. Yet other teams you talk of like say, Wolves who have always been financially backed will not stand to gain as much as clubs who are not but have larger attendances etc.

I would also take money out of the premiership by breaking up the monopoly that is sky and allow a bidding system where the highest bidder selects the games it wants to broadcast and then each game after that is bid on an individual basis and must be televised if the rights are baught, none of this buy every game and only show three- but that is only my opinion! But I do feel it would possibly give a wider audiance to the lower levels of football and not just the top four of the premiership which are always televised and therefore always earn more than other clubs.

[quote user="lincoln canary"]excellent debate[/quote]

Indeed - and one I hope that is listened too and acted upon because I think football will suffer come what may if it remains as it is.

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[quote user="BlyBlyBabes"]

[quote user="chicken"]I believe a wage cap should be placed. I think it should be based on several different factors:a) Gate receipts.b) Club turnover.c) League position (promotion and relegation).d) Accademy position.If you tie all of this into the other proposals by Platini which would see no player under the age of 18 able to transfer between clubs and that once 18 they automatically recieve a three year contract.I think that the above factors would also incurage clubs to be competative in other ways too such as accademy league results and trying to get the best out of their accademies which may in turn see more British homegrown tallent produced.League position already grants you money but if the wage cap was slightly different for each say - half of the league then it would also throw more importance into finishing top half and bottom half."The government does not tell board members at Tesco how much money they can spend on their staff so why should Championship clubs be placed under the same pressure? In football, as in the private sector, it is up to the board of directors and shareholders to run their organisation in a responsible and proper manner, not a central authority." - Ridsdale.People question our majority shareholders but this sort of attitude is what saw Leeds go bust. If tesco goe bust they either get baught out by another supermarket chain or we just change where we shop to Carl Cort''s ASDA or Morrisons etc. If a football club goes bust you don''t see another football club come in to bail them out (apart from MK Dons!) and the fans don''t switch alliegencies like that.I think it''s funny that you have people at this club who are questioned about their loyalty to football and the fans when you have someone like Ridsdale who is quite clearly only interested in money and he doesn''t seem very calculated with it at that.As I have mentioned before the American system is that each team is allowed a "star" player which can be paid outside of the sallery cap. Beckham is this at LA Galaxy. You could also use this as an incentive also. So for the teams that finnish in say the Champions League places and UEFA cup places gain an additional "star" slot to their standard one or however many is deemed fair for a top half premiership team. You could also give the same reward out to the Carling Cup finalists and FA Cup finalists to re-ignite their competativeness. If you were feeling generous you could allow the highest placing club of each league the same privelage.However for this to truly work you would have to look at getting it in place as a European ruling otherwise you would see what has happened in the past when English clubs have struggled as a group to offer the best wages and some teams like Monaco abroad have been able to attract players purely for offering better wages.I agree with Doncaster in that for the good of the game something has to be done to address the massive gulf between the premiership and the football league and the fact that some clubs are honest and hard working where as others have been swept off their feet by sugar dadies who is taking everyone for a ride.[/quote]

Three quick points.

1. It would be good to get an input from our American friends on salary and related matters.

2. UK would have to join the Euro for an effective European-wide system, one suspects. 

3. Do sugar mummies behave the same way as sugar daddies?

OTBC[/quote]

Sometimes you are sooooo annoying and at others you are pure genius! Its hard not to like you Bly when you come up with awesome threads and comments like this!

As for Sugar Mummies not sure but there was a bit of handbags involved over the Delia Vs that Brum(pty) in regards to Tiny.

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Salary caps in Football and pretty much unworkable. They work in American Leagues such as the NFL because the NFL is the only place in the world to play American Football. It''s not like a player at an NFL club can say " sod ya, your not paying me enough i''m off to play in the Belarus American Football League where they''ll pay me twice as much". This isn''t the case on Football over here. There are plenty of options for decent footballers if clubs aren''t paying them enough including a whole continent to pick from.

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[quote user="TheFineCity"]Salary caps in Football and pretty much unworkable. They work in American Leagues such as the NFL because the NFL is the only place in the world to play American Football. It''s not like a player at an NFL club can say " sod ya, your not paying me enough i''m off to play in the Belarus American Football League where they''ll pay me twice as much". This isn''t the case on Football over here. There are plenty of options for decent footballers if clubs aren''t paying them enough including a whole continent to pick from.[/quote]Hence the reason Platini wants it to be european wide!

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Quote from Ridsdale:

"The government does not tell board members at Tesco how much money they can spend on their staff so why should Championship

clubs be placed under the same pressure? In football, as in the private

sector, it is up to the board of directors and shareholders to run

their organisation in a responsible and proper manner, not a central

authority." - Ridsdale.

Excuse me, but isn''t this the guy that gambled Leeds United''s future on being in the Champions League and it all went horribly wrong.  He is the sole reason they are now in League One.  Some say it was David O''Leary spending huge fees on transfers - sorry, but as we all know, the manager can only spend what the Board gives to him.  So on that basis, Ridsdale is a hypocrite and loses all credibility in respect of this argument.Money and greed is destroying the whole ethos of ''the beautiful game''.

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[quote user="chicken"][quote user="TheFineCity"]Salary caps in Football and pretty much unworkable. They work in American Leagues such as the NFL because the NFL is the only place in the world to play American Football. It''s not like a player at an NFL club can say " sod ya, your not paying me enough i''m off to play in the Belarus American Football League where they''ll pay me twice as much". This isn''t the case on Football over here. There are plenty of options for decent footballers if clubs aren''t paying them enough including a whole continent to pick from.[/quote]

Hence the reason Platini wants it to be european wide!
[/quote]

And then what happens when some bright spark in Dubai has the idea of creating there own league with Al Sheikh United and Jumeirah Rover and paying top prices to bring the very best players over? And how do you make sure a Europe wide salary cap is fair in terms of what people are paid in terms of costs of living etc? Will this be say a £20k a week max across Europe? Because 20k will go a lot further in some places than it will here for example meaning they will eventually become more attractive places to go and play in.  

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[quote user="TheFineCity"]

[quote user="chicken"][quote user="TheFineCity"]Salary caps in Football and pretty much unworkable. They work in American Leagues such as the NFL because the NFL is the only place in the world to play American Football. It''s not like a player at an NFL club can say " sod ya, your not paying me enough i''m off to play in the Belarus American Football League where they''ll pay me twice as much". This isn''t the case on Football over here. There are plenty of options for decent footballers if clubs aren''t paying them enough including a whole continent to pick from.[/quote]Hence the reason Platini wants it to be european wide![/quote]

And then what happens when some bright spark in Dubai has the idea of creating there own league with Al Sheikh United and Jumeirah Rover and paying top prices to bring the very best players over? And how do you make sure a Europe wide salary cap is fair in terms of what people are paid in terms of costs of living etc? Will this be say a £20k a week max across Europe? Because 20k will go a lot further in some places than it will here for example meaning they will eventually become more attractive places to go and play in.  

[/quote]The rest of the world is a different matter but if a player wants to play football and become a great footballer then Europe is the best place. If they want to go and do a Rivaldo and Battistuta then they are welcome to go to the likes of Dubai for the twilight of their career to pick up a final pay-day.But it would weed out the money seekers from the guys that want to play football. And ofcourse you couldn''t apply the same figure for a wage cap across the entirety of Europe. Germany and France have lower divisions the equivelent of English non-league pretty much so its not as simple as placing a 20k wage cap on all second tier leagues.It is possible - all it takes is for people to stop defending a game that is loosing its traditions and identity.

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