The HBOS situation...... (for tipster)

[dp 0]

im not getting into a debt i never said leeds or luton . i know nothing of clubs finances & dont pretend to . its just things ive read & heard . ok maybe smaller clubs but nobody knows whats happening behind the scene at city unless your an employee working on finance. ive had my say & if all you know all want to argue with each other please do but as yhe said everyone has a opinion be it be right or wrong its still their opinion.

[lucky green trainers 0]

[quote user="Tipster101"]

[quote user="lucky green trainers"]its a poor situaashun...pity then board didn''t see fit to sell the club at the end of last season, or in july, or mid august or thereafter until the banking crisis unfolded in october...now its unsaleable,,, [/quote]

 

they need a buyer to enable them to sell. Cullum did not offer to buy the club. He offered to take up unissued shares for his 20m investment. This would have meant a Delia not getting any money for her shares as she wouldnt have sold them, and she would still be at the club anyway.

[/quote]who mentioned cullum tips???its clear imo the turners board invite was part of a smith and jones exit strategy that regrettably went west,,,but as i''ve suggested on this msg board before - having stared at the relegation devil full in the face last season and escaped, maybe the board should have realised the game was up and gone at the end of last season...since then opportunities have come and gone, as per my original post - but as you should know, being a chartered accountant - this is not the time to be selling assets...the boat has been missed,,,even 6 months ago, the club could have been sold for a fair price,,,but at the mo, the club is effectively unsaleable in these poor economic climes...would you agree???

[SuperWesIrishWizard 0]

[quote user="Tipster101"]Wes, first things first I never patronised you, if you reread it you will see I was joking about exams meaning something, hence the ;)you will then see that you go on to attempt to patronise me in your post by stating I work for a small local firm, when I infact don''t and I work for the 5th largest accounting firm in the UK.You also state incorrectly that i dont know certain aspects of the situation, which in fact I do know. So now thats out of the way...your hypothesis is correct but it does not take into account any other factors merely the ones that support your argument, and you even state the various places money will come from thus destroying the argument that the club will go into administration. NCFC will never be forced into administration by the 2.5m loan recall. There are so many, and i mean SO MANY ways to get round it only a very mediocre businessman/director etc would end up getting the firm into such a position as to be forced to go into administration due to a 2.5m recall. My argument in all this is that NCFC will not go into administration as a result of the 2.5m loan recall, and nothing more. And you seem to think I''m wrong? Do you think the government would force a football club at this time into admin over such a relatively small amount? especially after recent gov announcements that you should know about being in the trade.Do you not think Delia would put in some money to stop the situation in the short term?Do you not think Cullum would stay true to his word and donate the small amount needed to stop your disaster?Do you not think some assets could be sold to stop the situation?Do you really think a small amount of 2.5m will lead to such a large business'' downfall? 

[/quote]

• Leeds went into administration with £35m of debts, and failed to find £10m investment to save them from administrators. Leeds is supposed to be the financial capital of the north and this was prior to the credit crunch. Nobody saved them from administration.

• Luton Town went into administration in November 2007, owing £2.5m in tax. No businessman came forward to them, to the contrary, the consortium that bought them out were told that it was too late to pay the tax bill and avoid administration. The businessmen offered to clear the debt, however they instead got the penalties that leave them bottom of League Two. 

• Ipswich Town went into administration as the direct result of the collapse of the ITV deal, nobody saved them from administration, the collapse of he deal represented a shortfall in budget of £2m. The same potential shortfall in Norwichs budget.

• If Delia was prepared to invest more money, then should would also be willing to reduce her asking price by the appropriate amount.

• I think there is a possibility that Cullum would help, but thats our ONLY hope.

• What assets? what assets would you sell?  The sale of the LSE land at the current value would likely result in a loss of money, not enough to pay the finance for that land, thus we would have to continue repayments on a piece of land that we would then have no rights too. The sale of the very few players who could command a fee would result in relegation.  If we lost David Bell, David Marshall and Sammy Clingan for example, we would just about find the money. It is then of course likely that we would be relegated to League One, and lose that money all over again in lost TV revenues and lost gate reciepts.

• We are NOT a large business. Woolworths is a large business, MFI is a large business, Zavvi is a large business. They are all close to going under. You are clearly not a very good accountant if you believe that the size of a business matters, its return on investment and debt ratios, and we have no return on investment. I think you will find that we are a small - medium size business operating in one location. A private investor is not a hope right now, a fan is our only hope, and the only one with money that we know of is Peter Cullum.

• The government have no say on the matter, unless they change the regulations that relate to every football club in the country. Since Lord Mawhinney claims that up to half of football clubs are close to administration in the next few years, this may result in too much of a risk. There is a limit to government intervention, and the country already has record debt, following borrowings to reduce the tax rate and an investment into the financial markets. The ''government'' is simply employing bankers to run HBOS, to protect the interests of the economy, the housing markets, the employment rates. Football does not come into the parliamentary equation I am afraid. Why save Norwich? Why not the other 6 or 7 clubs to go into administration in the last few months?

• You may work for a big firm, but you are still close minded and typical of too many Norwich fans.

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="dp"]nobody knows whats happening behind the scene at city unless your an employee working on finance. [/quote]

Yes it is about opinions and you are entitled to your opinion like everybody else. However  some opinions are based on the NCFC Accounts, hence my use of the date 31st May 2008.

 

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="lucky green trainers"][quote user="Tipster101"]

[quote user="lucky green trainers"]its a poor situaashun...

pity then board didn''t see fit to sell the club at the end of last season, or in july, or mid august or thereafter until the banking crisis unfolded in october...

now its unsaleable,,,

 
[/quote]

 

they need a buyer to enable them to sell. Cullum did not offer to buy the club. He offered to take up unissued shares for his 20m investment. This would have meant a Delia not getting any money for her shares as she wouldnt have sold them, and she would still be at the club anyway.

[/quote]

its clear imo the turners board invite was part of a smith and jones exit strategy that regrettably went west,,,but as i''ve suggested on this msg board before - having stared at the relegation devil full in the face last season and escaped, maybe the board should have realised the game was up and gone at the end of last season...

since then opportunities have come and gone, as per my original post - but as you should know, being a chartered accountant - this is not the time to be selling assets...the boat has been missed,,,even 6 months ago, the club could have been sold for a fair price,,,

[/quote]

Good understanding of the situation

[lucky green trainers 0]

[quote user="Tipster101"][quote user="Ren"]

[quote user="Tipster101"]Wes, first things first I never patronised you, if you reread it you will see I was joking about exams meaning something, hence the ;)you will then see that you go on to attempt to patronise me in your post by stating I work for a small local firm, when I infact don''t and I work for the 5th largest accounting firm in the UK.You also state incorrectly that i dont know certain aspects of the situation, which in fact I do know. So now thats out of the way...your hypothesis is correct but it does not take into account any other factors merely the ones that support your argument, and you even state the various places money will come from thus destroying the argument that the club will go into administration. NCFC will never be forced into administration by the 2.5m loan recall. There are so many, and i mean SO MANY ways to get round it only a very mediocre businessman/director etc would end up getting the firm into such a position as to be forced to go into administration due to a 2.5m recall. My argument in all this is that NCFC will not go into administration as a result of the 2.5m loan recall, and nothing more. And you seem to think I''m wrong? Do you think the government would force a football club at this time into admin over such a relatively small amount? especially after recent gov announcements that you should know about being in the trade.Do you not think Delia would put in some money to stop the situation in the short term?Do you not think Cullum would stay true to his word and donate the small amount needed to stop your disaster?Do you not think some assets could be sold to stop the situation?Do you really think a small amount of 2.5m will lead to such a large business'' downfall? 

[/quote]

I do.

[/quote]please explain why.... its funny how if Delia had put in 2.5m in the summer everyone would have been moaning that it was such a small amount etc blah blah. and yet when the figure being touted for the club to pay back is 2.5m its a huge amount thats going to lead to a large business'' downfall.[/quote]it depends on what form the payment took??? was it cash up front - or secured on assets (clubs) or personally guaranteed by the maj shareholders??? its fair to say, since then the crunch has worsened, and that it would be difficult ( from the experience of other companies - even big ones) to refinance this loan based on the clubs accounts - and that imo, this leaves the board needing to find £2.5m cash...either that, or the maj shareholders could guarantee a refinancing via other assets their own, such as their house...either way, its new money/financing on top of the august bail out...and then there''s the projected £2m annual loss, which could realistically double if gates drop at carrra to the levels of other champs sides - soton 15k, charlton 18k etc...in short - have the board the stomach to finance these losses, over what could be an extended period...if they don''t, then yeah, the club could go under...when do you stop throwing good money after bad???

[Bovril 219]

Good arguments being put ''for'' and ''against'' in the court of pink''un here by tipster and superwes... firstly you''re both professionals in your own right, and there''s no need to argue with one another...

As for the actual topic raised, I firmly believe Norwich City Football Club will not go into admin., certaintly not in the short-term atleast (the next 12 months) unless of extraordinary events. However I would have to question whether the government would bail out a football club, although due to the economic benefits and leisure trade it has in the whole of norfolk we could be an exception to say Luton, Rotherham or smaller clubs in areas of high population (i.e London, Yorkshire).

I also doubt whether Delia does indeed have £2.5mill to rescue, nobody can possibly argue she doesn''t ''love the club'', but I believe she has put in as much as possible. This then leads to my final point. Peter Cullum (love him or hate him) has stated on record I believe that he would not let the club collapse if it reached such a poor state. He would obviusly only then buy the club at the cheapest possible price avalible to him rather then pay over the odds at the same time saving the club.

To draw a conclusion to my mini-essay, yes we are in a very poor finacial position with little assets left to sell or to secure against BUT we also have options should we need to raise the £2.5mill.

[Canary Man of Kent 0]

[quote user="Tipster101"]Wes, first things first I never patronised you, if you reread it you will see I was joking about exams meaning something, hence the ;)

you will then see that you go on to attempt to patronise me in your post by stating I work for a small local firm, when I infact don''t and I work for the 5th largest accounting firm in the UK.

You also state incorrectly that i dont know certain aspects of the situation, which in fact I do know.

So now thats out of the way...

your hypothesis is correct but it does not take into account any other factors merely the ones that support your argument, and you even state the various places money will come from thus destroying the argument that the club will go into administration. NCFC will never be forced into administration by the 2.5m loan recall. There are so many, and i mean SO MANY ways to get round it only a very mediocre businessman/director etc would end up getting the firm into such a position as to be forced to go into administration due to a 2.5m recall.

My argument in all this is that NCFC will not go into administration as a result of the 2.5m loan recall, and nothing more. And you seem to think I''m wrong? Do you think the government would force a football club at this time into admin over such a relatively small amount? especially after recent gov announcements that you should know about being in the trade.

Do you not think Delia would put in some money to stop the situation in the short term?

Do you not think Cullum would stay true to his word and donate the small amount needed to stop your disaster?

Do you not think some assets could be sold to stop the situation?

Do you really think a small amount of 2.5m will lead to such a large business'' downfall?

 


[/quote]

Are you on the NCFC audit team? This would certainly put you in an excellent position to comment.

I get my case result next friday so I certainly hope the exams aren''t all for nothing!

Reading through the posts, I have to say I tend to agree with Tipster, whilst it may be the case that none of us have the fall facts, it certainly seems he may know a lot more than most. As someone posted earlier the only factor that will push the club into administration is cashflow, whilst a £2.5m shortfall could lead the club to a position where it can''t meet it''s current obligations, it strikes me as unlikely given that this is something that can be planned for. Equally though, it is a gap that will need plugging in the long term, and if it has to be squeezed out of the club, (which I believe it probably could) whilst admin would be avoided we''d still be in a stinking mess.

OTBC

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

SuperWesIrishWizard stated:

 Leeds is supposed to be the financial capital of the north

---> Manchester may argue about that.

Luton Town went into administration in November 2007, 

---> Interesting situation, what happened to all those transfer fees.....

 

Ipswich Town went into administration as the direct result of the collapse of the ITV deal, nobody saved them from administration, the collapse of he deal represented a shortfall in budget of £2m. The same potential shortfall in Norwichs budget.

---> Ipswich were in a far worse situation than you make out, I predicted the Ipswich administration the summer before it happened on their Rivals bb.  The debts were too big to be serviced.

 

I think there is a possibility that Cullum would help, but thats our ONLY hope.

---> Agreed

 

What assets? what assets would you sell? 

---> May I suggest you have a look at the working capital on the Balance Sheet as at 31st May 2008.

 

 

 

 

[lucky green trainers 0]

[quote user="SuperWesIrishWizard"][quote user="Tipster101"][quote user="SuperWesIrishWizard"]

Hate to piss on your BBQ Tipster, but the ''boards talk'' said that our financial situation is Dire, and Doncaster has himself said that is HBOS / the government dont agree to arrange a £2.5m loan that is due at the end of December, then we will be in serious trouble.

The remainder of the debt, about £15.5m, is secured for a relatively long period. But that £2.5m could well put us into administration.  £2m of that £2.5m was to come from the interest free loan from the Turners, which they have taken back out of the club, thus there is a £2m budget shortfall. Contrary to criticising Peter Cullum, we should be criticising the Turners for putting the future of our club in jeopordy.

So stop pretending that you know what your talking about.

[/quote]

 

lol if you want to believe that, you can do. I would hope, being a chartered accountant would mean i do know what I''m talking about and I havent passed all those exams for nothing ;) . Yes the financial situation is dire, but that 2.5m loan recall will not put the club into administration unless they go and do something ridiculous between now and the recall.

[/quote]

Dont patronise me I am a commercial property specialist, and yes im chartered, so know enough about investment, land values and company accounts. Thank you.

I also know that you dont know whether the club has the liquidity to raise £2.5m in cash. I also know, that you dont know whether or not the club has enough equity from its land assets taking into consideration deflation (not just recent deflation but also possible future deflation, values are expected to continue to fall) to refinance.

So mister ''Chartered Accountant'' why dont you listen to mister ''Chartered Surveyor''

 

£2.5 million, which is secured against the value of Carrow Road when borrowed, is 13% of the clubs debt.

The value of land/property in the East of England has fallen between 13-15%.

The value of land/property in the East of England is expected to fall another 6%.

If, which I think is likely judging by the analysis from the £32k a year software I am sitting at right now, the club has taken all possible equity against Carrow Road....

Then.... we will not be able to borrow £2.5m from any financial institutions because we now dont have the value in the  land / property rights to secure this against.

That 13% of debt, has balanced out the fall in the land and property assets.

Meaning that, until we pay RBOS we are in negative equity, if we pay RBOS then at some stage next year we will enter negative equity again.

 

This is all very hypothetical of course, I would not do a full appraisal without significant payment, however you will see that if the club cannot raise that £2.5m against its land assets, and the club does not have the cash already (do you really think we have ANY cash?) then the only way to raise that £2.5m is:-

Donations

Private Loans (e.g. The Turners £2m that they pulled)

Investment

Sale of other assets (So players).

 

So before you get all high and mighty on me, please realise that my area of expertise has EVERYTHING to do with EVERY  aspect of your job at the moment. Every financial problem within an economical context relates to property.

Your are obviously a very small, and locally minded accountant.

 

[/quote]imo - i doubt if the club itself could raise any further bank loans in the current credit squeeze,,,NCFC is loss making...therefore, extra inward investment would be required, either as cash from the board members (loaned to the club no doubt) donations from other supporters (such as happening already with leezers funding) from the sale of assets (as you correctly say - in effect the players) or from a loan secured on directors personal assets,,,from inviting new members onto the board for cash (as in the example of the turners) or a combination of all these...or delay making payments to HMRC - as other clubs do - effectively using this as an overdraft facility!!! naughty, naughty...

[Bovril 219]

[quote user="SimonOTBC"]

[quote user="Tipster101"]Wes, first things first I never patronised you, if you reread it you will see I was joking about exams meaning something, hence the ;)

you will then see that you go on to attempt to patronise me in your post by stating I work for a small local firm, when I infact don''t and I work for the 5th largest accounting firm in the UK.

You also state incorrectly that i dont know certain aspects of the situation, which in fact I do know.

So now thats out of the way...

your hypothesis is correct but it does not take into account any other factors merely the ones that support your argument, and you even state the various places money will come from thus destroying the argument that the club will go into administration. NCFC will never be forced into administration by the 2.5m loan recall. There are so many, and i mean SO MANY ways to get round it only a very mediocre businessman/director etc would end up getting the firm into such a position as to be forced to go into administration due to a 2.5m recall.

My argument in all this is that NCFC will not go into administration as a result of the 2.5m loan recall, and nothing more. And you seem to think I''m wrong? Do you think the government would force a football club at this time into admin over such a relatively small amount? especially after recent gov announcements that you should know about being in the trade.

Do you not think Delia would put in some money to stop the situation in the short term?

Do you not think Cullum would stay true to his word and donate the small amount needed to stop your disaster?

Do you not think some assets could be sold to stop the situation?

Do you really think a small amount of 2.5m will lead to such a large business'' downfall?

 


[/quote]

Are you on the NCFC audit team? This would certainly put you in an excellent position to comment.

I get my case result next friday so I certainly hope the exams aren''t all for nothing!

Reading through the posts, I have to say I tend to agree with Tipster, whilst it may be the case that none of us have the fall facts, it certainly seems he may know a lot more than most. As someone posted earlier the only factor that will push the club into administration is cashflow, whilst a £2.5m shortfall could lead the club to a position where it can''t meet it''s current obligations, it strikes me as unlikely given that this is something that can be planned for. Equally though, it is a gap that will need plugging in the long term, and if it has to be squeezed out of the club, (which I believe it probably could) whilst admin would be avoided we''d still be in a stinking mess.

OTBC

[/quote]

I sincerely hope he''s not otherwise I would fear for his professional career without his reputation, haha!

I presume he works for Grant Thornton

[nutty nigel 7,509]

[quote user="lucky green trainers"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

But wouldn''t we be in the same stuation if they had sold the club then...

or maybe a worse one.....

 

[/quote]

hey???  more likely in a better position if they''d sold,,,but of course, it depends who to...

so - we shall never know nutty - but what we do know is that the club is unsaleable (effectively), losing money and has spent its playing side budget for the season already - and is relying on an outside businessman to finance the wages of leezer...

this is not good,,,[:(][/quote]

We will never know. We don''t know if the owners really want to sell or have ever wanted to sell. We don''t know if anyone wants to buy or has ever wanted to buy. Everyone seems to be an expert on our finacial positition and seems to want to speculate about it more than about football. The way I see it Mr Carrow is the expert and the "Daddy" of you all. But he doesn''t seem to have an opinion about what will happen, he just moans a lot.

Anyway, for what it''s worth I don''t believe we will go into administration this season and I don''t believe we will be relegated. There, that''s my colours nailed firmly to the mast and if i am proved wrong feel free to drag this thread up and make fun of me.

I do think some Championship Clubs could well go into administration and I think the ones that this is mostly likely to happen to are the ones who are in debt to the Inland Revenue.

 

[SuperWesIrishWizard 0]

Thanks for your response Canary Nut......[quote user="Canary Nut"]

SuperWesIrishWizard stated:

 Leeds is supposed to be the financial capital of the north   

---> Manchester may argue about that.     It is a well known fact that Leeds is the leading financial and professional services centre outside of london, that is to say.... it employs 270,000 people in that sector, with many leading financial institutions and large firms being based their. Manchester''s employment demographic dictates that it is the retail capital of the north.

Luton Town went into administration in November 2007, 

---> Interesting situation, what happened to all those transfer fees.....

They claimed it was a reduction in income. Basically, they sold and released good players when they shouldnt (like Norwich) and then didnt take enough income from matches after relegation to pay their existing debts (e.g. loan interest, tax bills) - which would probably also happen to Norwich if relegation became a possibility.

 

Ipswich Town went into administration as the direct result of the collapse of the ITV deal, nobody saved them from administration, the collapse of he deal represented a shortfall in budget of £2m. The same potential shortfall in Norwichs budget.

---> Ipswich were in a far worse situation than you make out, I predicted the Ipswich administration the summer before it happened on their Rivals bb.  The debts were too big to be serviced.

 Ok, granted, they also made some stupid mistakes.... they came down with Finidi George on 30k a week (and seriously crocked) and Matteo Sereni on 40k a week, whilst playing on loan in Italy (with his new club making no wage contribution). So admittedly, their circumstances were worse, but I didnt mind!

I think there is a possibility that Cullum would help, but thats our ONLY hope.

---> Agreed

 Hooray!

What assets? what assets would you sell? 

---> May I suggest you have a look at the working capital on the Balance Sheet as at 31st May 2008.

 The working capital minus £2m taken out by Turners (halfed).....

 

[/quote]

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="Tipster101"]

My argument in all this is that NCFC will not go into administration as a result of the 2.5m loan recall, and nothing more. And you seem to think I''m wrong? Do you think the government would force a football club at this time into admin over such a relatively small amount? especially after recent gov announcements that you should know about being in the trade.

Do you not think Delia would put in some money to stop the situation in the short term?

Do you not think Cullum would stay true to his word and donate the small amount needed to stop your disaster?
[/quote]

Without getting involved in this argument, there are quite enough myths and misunderstandings surrounding Cullumgate without another one getting accepted as gospel. So, as a matter of hard fact, Peter Cullum has never said he is ready to pay off this particular £2.5m.

What he told the EDP was:

"It would tragic to have club like Norwich go down. Then I hope that Keith Harris will create interest in individuals or a group of individuals in investing in Norwich City. If absolutely no solution is found and the club is in a precarious position, I wouldn''t just stand by as a spectator."

If anything that seems to be a reference to what he might some time in the future do if Harris fails to find a buyer or investor, but what it categorically is not is a promise to pay off the £2.5m. That is not to say he won''t, but he has never said he will.

[Gentleman Jim 0]

As someone who knows little about high finance I try to learn from those who do know.

So when we have two groups of self proclaimed experts with such diametrically opposed views I realise I am no wiser and can see why the state of the country is how it is, it seems to me to be purely a matter of personal opinion rather than actual facts.

Only time will tell who is right.

 

 

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="SuperWesIrishWizard"]Thanks for your response Canary Nut......

[quote user="Canary Nut"]

SuperWesIrishWizard stated:

 Leeds is supposed to be the financial capital of the north   

---> Manchester may argue about that.     It is a well known fact that Leeds is the leading financial and professional services centre outside of london, that is to say.... it employs 270,000 people in that sector, with many leading financial institutions and large firms being based their. Manchester''s employment demographic dictates that it is the retail capital of the north.

Luton Town went into administration in November 2007, 

---> Interesting situation, what happened to all those transfer fees.....

They claimed it was a reduction in income. Basically, they sold and released good players when they shouldnt (like Norwich) and then didnt take enough income from matches after relegation to pay their existing debts (e.g. loan interest, tax bills) - which would probably also happen to Norwich if relegation became a possibility.

 

Ipswich Town went into administration as the direct result of the collapse of the ITV deal, nobody saved them from administration, the collapse of he deal represented a shortfall in budget of £2m. The same potential shortfall in Norwichs budget.

---> Ipswich were in a far worse situation than you make out, I predicted the Ipswich administration the summer before it happened on their Rivals bb.  The debts were too big to be serviced.

 Ok, granted, they also made some stupid mistakes.... they came down with Finidi George on 30k a week (and seriously crocked) and Matteo Sereni on 40k a week, whilst playing on loan in Italy (with his new club making no wage contribution). So admittedly, their circumstances were worse, but I didnt mind!

I think there is a possibility that Cullum would help, but thats our ONLY hope.

---> Agreed

 Hooray!

What assets? what assets would you sell? 

---> May I suggest you have a look at the working capital on the Balance Sheet as at 31st May 2008.

 The working capital minus £2m taken out by Turners (halfed).....

 

[/quote][/quote]

I knew Leeds was a big financial centre but I am amazed it has/had 270,000 people employed in financial services.

Luton - they were getting some big fees. Wasn''t there a holding company involved....i think you will understand what I am hinting at!

You stated: .....then didnt take enough income from matches after relegation to pay their existing debts (e.g. loan interest, tax bills) - which would probably also happen to Norwich if relegation became a possibility. ''  That  has gone through my mind too. If we got relegated may be we will end up with alot of youngsters in the first team and a big (and it would have to be given a big drop in revenues) drop in the wage bill if other clubs were prepared to take our experienced players off our hands. Most will go but I think we would struggle to offload some, e.g.,Stefanovic (age and wages), Pattison, Cureton (age, wages and cant score this season)

The Turners loan can only be repaid if  one of the following happens (its in one of the notes to the NCFC Accounts to the 31/5/08):

a) Delia & MWJ''s ordinary shareholding falls below a certain %, off the top of my head I thinks its 30% of the issued ordinary shares.

b) We get promoted to The Premiership...whats the chance of that happening this season?!?!

c) Some date way in the future.....2017 ???

 

 

[SuperWesIrishWizard 0]

[quote user="Canary Nut"][quote user="SuperWesIrishWizard"]Thanks for your response Canary Nut......[quote user="Canary Nut"]

SuperWesIrishWizard stated:

 Leeds is supposed to be the financial capital of the north   

---> Manchester may argue about that.     It is a well known fact that Leeds is the leading financial and professional services centre outside of london, that is to say.... it employs 270,000 people in that sector, with many leading financial institutions and large firms being based their. Manchester''s employment demographic dictates that it is the retail capital of the north.

Luton Town went into administration in November 2007, 

---> Interesting situation, what happened to all those transfer fees.....

They claimed it was a reduction in income. Basically, they sold and released good players when they shouldnt (like Norwich) and then didnt take enough income from matches after relegation to pay their existing debts (e.g. loan interest, tax bills) - which would probably also happen to Norwich if relegation became a possibility.

 

Ipswich Town went into administration as the direct result of the collapse of the ITV deal, nobody saved them from administration, the collapse of he deal represented a shortfall in budget of £2m. The same potential shortfall in Norwichs budget.

---> Ipswich were in a far worse situation than you make out, I predicted the Ipswich administration the summer before it happened on their Rivals bb.  The debts were too big to be serviced.

 Ok, granted, they also made some stupid mistakes.... they came down with Finidi George on 30k a week (and seriously crocked) and Matteo Sereni on 40k a week, whilst playing on loan in Italy (with his new club making no wage contribution). So admittedly, their circumstances were worse, but I didnt mind!

I think there is a possibility that Cullum would help, but thats our ONLY hope.

---> Agreed

 Hooray!

What assets? what assets would you sell? 

---> May I suggest you have a look at the working capital on the Balance Sheet as at 31st May 2008.

 The working capital minus £2m taken out by Turners (halfed).....

 

[/quote][/quote]

I knew Leeds was a big financial centre but I am amazed it has/had 270,000 people employed in financial services.

Luton - they were getting some big fees. Wasn''t there a holding company involved....i think you will understand what I am hinting at!

You stated: .....then didnt take enough income from matches after relegation to pay their existing debts (e.g. loan interest, tax bills) - which would probably also happen to Norwich if relegation became a possibility. ''  That  has gone through my mind too. If we got relegated may be we will end up with alot of youngsters in the first team and a big (and it would have to be given a big drop in revenues) drop in the wage bill if other clubs were prepared to take our experienced players off our hands. Most will go but I think we would struggle to offload some, e.g.,Stefanovic (age and wages), Pattison, Cureton (age, wages and cant score this season)

The Turners loan can only be repaid if  one of the following happens (its in one of the notes to the NCFC Accounts to the 31/5/08):

a) Delia & MWJ''s ordinary shareholding falls below a certain %, off the top of my head I thinks its 30% of the issued ordinary shares.

b) We get promoted to The Premiership...whats the chance of that happening this season?!?!

c) Some date way in the future.....2017 ???

 

 

[/quote]I didnt realise that about the Turners loan if I am honest, makes me feel a bit better about the situation......

[Tangible Fixed Assets anyone? 0]

[quote user="SimonOTBC"]

 As someone posted earlier the only factor that will push the club into administration is cashflow, whilst a £2.5m shortfall could lead the club to a position where it can''t meet it''s current obligations [/quote]

People need to relax......and think about that working capital I keep going on about. 

 

[PurpleCanary 5,554]

[quote user="Canary Nut"]

The Turners loan can only be repaid if  one of the following happens (its in one of the notes to the NCFC Accounts to the 31/5/08):

a) Delia & MWJ''s ordinary shareholding falls below a certain %, off the top of my head I thinks its 30% of the issued ordinary shares.

b) We get promoted to The Premiership...whats the chance of that happening this season?!?!

c) Some date way in the future.....2017 ???

[/quote]

It is below 50 per cent, which would happen if someone either bought most or all of Smith and Jones''s shares or bought enough new shares to become the majority shareholder.

[lucky green trainers 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"][quote user="lucky green trainers"][quote user="nutty nigel"]

But wouldn''t we be in the same stuation if they had sold the club then...

or maybe a worse one.....

 

[/quote]hey???  more likely in a better position if they''d sold,,,but of course, it depends who to...so - we shall never know nutty - but what we do know is that the club is unsaleable (effectively), losing money and has spent its playing side budget for the season already - and is relying on an outside businessman to finance the wages of leezer...this is not good,,,[:(][/quote]

We will never know. We don''t know if the owners really want to sell or have ever wanted to sell. We don''t know if anyone wants to buy or has ever wanted to buy. Everyone seems to be an expert on our finacial positition and seems to want to speculate about it more than about football. The way I see it Mr Carrow is the expert and the "Daddy" of you all. But he doesn''t seem to have an opinion about what will happen, he just moans a lot.

Anyway, for what it''s worth I don''t believe we will go into administration this season and I don''t believe we will be relegated. There, that''s my colours nailed firmly to the mast and if i am proved wrong feel free to drag this thread up and make fun of me.

I do think some Championship Clubs could well go into administration and I think the ones that this is mostly likely to happen to are the ones who are in debt to the Inland Revenue.

 

[/quote]imo nutty - its credible only to believe the maj shareholders have been planning their exit from NCFC for a long time - but fair enough, we all choose what we want to believe...i also don''t believe we''ll go into admin this season, and i hopeful that we will avoid relelgation, but underperforming teams can also get relegated as much as just the teams who on paper should - needless to say we have to earn the right to still be in this league come next season, and as we all know, a good run can still get you up there, but sure - the clock is ticking against us to acheive anything this season, except for the victory that a mid-table finish would bring...i guess we''d all settle for that right now...

[Shack Attack 0]

This is fun isn''t it [|-)]

[Evil Monkey 52]

[quote user="Shack Attack"]This is fun isn''t it [|-)][/quote]Indeed... an argument between accountants is about as exciting as staging a reconstruction of the invasion of Normandy with... erm, with - well.... accountants!  Okay, bad analogy... accountants are boring, you get the gist... [;)]Anyone wanna talk about environmental economics? Nope, thought not....

[Tipster101 0]

[quote user="SuperWesIrishWizard"][quote user="Canary Nut"][quote user="SuperWesIrishWizard"]Thanks for your response Canary Nut......[quote user="Canary Nut"]

SuperWesIrishWizard stated:

 Leeds is supposed to be the financial capital of the north   

---> Manchester may argue about that.     It is a well known fact that Leeds is the leading financial and professional services centre outside of london, that is to say.... it employs 270,000 people in that sector, with many leading financial institutions and large firms being based their. Manchester''s employment demographic dictates that it is the retail capital of the north.

Luton Town went into administration in November 2007, 

---> Interesting situation, what happened to all those transfer fees.....

They claimed it was a reduction in income. Basically, they sold and released good players when they shouldnt (like Norwich) and then didnt take enough income from matches after relegation to pay their existing debts (e.g. loan interest, tax bills) - which would probably also happen to Norwich if relegation became a possibility.

 

Ipswich Town went into administration as the direct result of the collapse of the ITV deal, nobody saved them from administration, the collapse of he deal represented a shortfall in budget of £2m. The same potential shortfall in Norwichs budget.

---> Ipswich were in a far worse situation than you make out, I predicted the Ipswich administration the summer before it happened on their Rivals bb.  The debts were too big to be serviced.

 Ok, granted, they also made some stupid mistakes.... they came down with Finidi George on 30k a week (and seriously crocked) and Matteo Sereni on 40k a week, whilst playing on loan in Italy (with his new club making no wage contribution). So admittedly, their circumstances were worse, but I didnt mind!

I think there is a possibility that Cullum would help, but thats our ONLY hope.

---> Agreed

 Hooray!

What assets? what assets would you sell? 

---> May I suggest you have a look at the working capital on the Balance Sheet as at 31st May 2008.

 The working capital minus £2m taken out by Turners (halfed).....

 

[/quote][/quote]

I knew Leeds was a big financial centre but I am amazed it has/had 270,000 people employed in financial services.

Luton - they were getting some big fees. Wasn''t there a holding company involved....i think you will understand what I am hinting at!

You stated: .....then didnt take enough income from matches after relegation to pay their existing debts (e.g. loan interest, tax bills) - which would probably also happen to Norwich if relegation became a possibility. ''  That  has gone through my mind too. If we got relegated may be we will end up with alot of youngsters in the first team and a big (and it would have to be given a big drop in revenues) drop in the wage bill if other clubs were prepared to take our experienced players off our hands. Most will go but I think we would struggle to offload some, e.g.,Stefanovic (age and wages), Pattison, Cureton (age, wages and cant score this season)

The Turners loan can only be repaid if  one of the following happens (its in one of the notes to the NCFC Accounts to the 31/5/08):

a) Delia & MWJ''s ordinary shareholding falls below a certain %, off the top of my head I thinks its 30% of the issued ordinary shares.

b) We get promoted to The Premiership...whats the chance of that happening this season?!?!

c) Some date way in the future.....2017 ???

 

 

[/quote]I didnt realise that about the Turners loan if I am honest, makes me feel a bit better about the situation......[/quote]

suddenly having knowledge of accounts is important ;). I have to say from a surveyors point of view your argument is 90% factual and good, but from an accountants point of view their is no way NCFC will end up in admin due to the points raised. you see the surveyors point of view uses the one factor, whilst the accountants uses the whole caboodle.

[SuperWesIrishWizard 0]

[quote user="Evil Monkey"][quote user="Shack Attack"]This is fun isn''t it [|-)][/quote]Indeed... an argument between accountants is about as exciting as staging a reconstruction of the invasion of Normandy with... erm, with - well.... accountants!  Okay, bad analogy... accountants are boring, you get the gist... [;)]Anyone wanna talk about environmental economics? Nope, thought not....[/quote]Yeah why not..... did you know that Red Square in Moscow represents the area of solar panels needed to power the whole of Europe?I have plenty more of them if you need them!

[SuperWesIrishWizard 0]

[quote user="Tipster101"][quote user="SuperWesIrishWizard"][quote user="Canary Nut"][quote user="SuperWesIrishWizard"]Thanks for your response Canary Nut......[quote user="Canary Nut"]

SuperWesIrishWizard stated:

 Leeds is supposed to be the financial capital of the north   

---> Manchester may argue about that.     It is a well known fact that Leeds is the leading financial and professional services centre outside of london, that is to say.... it employs 270,000 people in that sector, with many leading financial institutions and large firms being based their. Manchester''s employment demographic dictates that it is the retail capital of the north.

Luton Town went into administration in November 2007, 

---> Interesting situation, what happened to all those transfer fees.....

They claimed it was a reduction in income. Basically, they sold and released good players when they shouldnt (like Norwich) and then didnt take enough income from matches after relegation to pay their existing debts (e.g. loan interest, tax bills) - which would probably also happen to Norwich if relegation became a possibility.

 

Ipswich Town went into administration as the direct result of the collapse of the ITV deal, nobody saved them from administration, the collapse of he deal represented a shortfall in budget of £2m. The same potential shortfall in Norwichs budget.

---> Ipswich were in a far worse situation than you make out, I predicted the Ipswich administration the summer before it happened on their Rivals bb.  The debts were too big to be serviced.

 Ok, granted, they also made some stupid mistakes.... they came down with Finidi George on 30k a week (and seriously crocked) and Matteo Sereni on 40k a week, whilst playing on loan in Italy (with his new club making no wage contribution). So admittedly, their circumstances were worse, but I didnt mind!

I think there is a possibility that Cullum would help, but thats our ONLY hope.

---> Agreed

 Hooray!

What assets? what assets would you sell? 

---> May I suggest you have a look at the working capital on the Balance Sheet as at 31st May 2008.

 The working capital minus £2m taken out by Turners (halfed).....

 

[/quote][/quote]

I knew Leeds was a big financial centre but I am amazed it has/had 270,000 people employed in financial services.

Luton - they were getting some big fees. Wasn''t there a holding company involved....i think you will understand what I am hinting at!

You stated: .....then didnt take enough income from matches after relegation to pay their existing debts (e.g. loan interest, tax bills) - which would probably also happen to Norwich if relegation became a possibility. ''  That  has gone through my mind too. If we got relegated may be we will end up with alot of youngsters in the first team and a big (and it would have to be given a big drop in revenues) drop in the wage bill if other clubs were prepared to take our experienced players off our hands. Most will go but I think we would struggle to offload some, e.g.,Stefanovic (age and wages), Pattison, Cureton (age, wages and cant score this season)

The Turners loan can only be repaid if  one of the following happens (its in one of the notes to the NCFC Accounts to the 31/5/08):

a) Delia & MWJ''s ordinary shareholding falls below a certain %, off the top of my head I thinks its 30% of the issued ordinary shares.

b) We get promoted to The Premiership...whats the chance of that happening this season?!?!

c) Some date way in the future.....2017 ???

 

 

[/quote]I didnt realise that about the Turners loan if I am honest, makes me feel a bit better about the situation......[/quote]

suddenly having knowledge of accounts is important ;). I have to say from a surveyors point of view your argument is 90% factual and good, but from an accountants point of view their is no way NCFC will end up in admin due to the points raised. you see the surveyors point of view uses the one factor, whilst the accountants uses the whole caboodle. [/quote]Moving away from this topic a little...... does it concern you that the club has LSE land which it will probably now make a loss on?As a supporter, not as an accountant.....

[macdougalls perm 0]

[quote user="Shack Attack"]This is fun isn''t it [|-)]
[/quote]

Ha ha! [:D]

[Tipster101 0]

[quote user="SuperWesIrishWizard"][quote user="Tipster101"]Wes, first things first I never patronised you, if you reread it you will see I was joking about exams meaning something, hence the ;)you will then see that you go on to attempt to patronise me in your post by stating I work for a small local firm, when I infact don''t and I work for the 5th largest accounting firm in the UK.You also state incorrectly that i dont know certain aspects of the situation, which in fact I do know. So now thats out of the way...your hypothesis is correct but it does not take into account any other factors merely the ones that support your argument, and you even state the various places money will come from thus destroying the argument that the club will go into administration. NCFC will never be forced into administration by the 2.5m loan recall. There are so many, and i mean SO MANY ways to get round it only a very mediocre businessman/director etc would end up getting the firm into such a position as to be forced to go into administration due to a 2.5m recall. My argument in all this is that NCFC will not go into administration as a result of the 2.5m loan recall, and nothing more. And you seem to think I''m wrong? Do you think the government would force a football club at this time into admin over such a relatively small amount? especially after recent gov announcements that you should know about being in the trade.Do you not think Delia would put in some money to stop the situation in the short term?Do you not think Cullum would stay true to his word and donate the small amount needed to stop your disaster?Do you not think some assets could be sold to stop the situation?Do you really think a small amount of 2.5m will lead to such a large business'' downfall? 

[/quote]

• Leeds went into administration with £35m of debts, and failed to find £10m investment to save them from administrators. Leeds is supposed to be the financial capital of the north and this was prior to the credit crunch. Nobody saved them from administration.

• Luton Town went into administration in November 2007, owing £2.5m in tax. No businessman came forward to them, to the contrary, the consortium that bought them out were told that it was too late to pay the tax bill and avoid administration. The businessmen offered to clear the debt, however they instead got the penalties that leave them bottom of League Two. 

• Ipswich Town went into administration as the direct result of the collapse of the ITV deal, nobody saved them from administration, the collapse of he deal represented a shortfall in budget of £2m. The same potential shortfall in Norwichs budget.

• If Delia was prepared to invest more money, then should would also be willing to reduce her asking price by the appropriate amount.

• I think there is a possibility that Cullum would help, but thats our ONLY hope.

• What assets? what assets would you sell?  The sale of the LSE land at the current value would likely result in a loss of money, not enough to pay the finance for that land, thus we would have to continue repayments on a piece of land that we would then have no rights too. The sale of the very few players who could command a fee would result in relegation.  If we lost David Bell, David Marshall and Sammy Clingan for example, we would just about find the money. It is then of course likely that we would be relegated to League One, and lose that money all over again in lost TV revenues and lost gate reciepts.

• We are NOT a large business. Woolworths is a large business, MFI is a large business, Zavvi is a large business. They are all close to going under. You are clearly not a very good accountant if you believe that the size of a business matters, its return on investment and debt ratios, and we have no return on investment. I think you will find that we are a small - medium size business operating in one location. A private investor is not a hope right now, a fan is our only hope, and the only one with money that we know of is Peter Cullum.

• The government have no say on the matter, unless they change the regulations that relate to every football club in the country. Since Lord Mawhinney claims that up to half of football clubs are close to administration in the next few years, this may result in too much of a risk. There is a limit to government intervention, and the country already has record debt, following borrowings to reduce the tax rate and an investment into the financial markets. The ''government'' is simply employing bankers to run HBOS, to protect the interests of the economy, the housing markets, the employment rates. Football does not come into the parliamentary equation I am afraid. Why save Norwich? Why not the other 6 or 7 clubs to go into administration in the last few months?

• You may work for a big firm, but you are still close minded and typical of too many Norwich fans.

[/quote]sorry just seen this. We most certainly are a big business, anyone with any knowledge on this subject will tell you this. hint the accounts are audited accounts. now look up audit law and see what types of companies need auditing and what constitutes a large company. PS: woolworths and MFI are no longer large companies ;) just a joke to prove i am taking this light heartedly and not getting aggresive and abusive in my post like certain people.

[Tipster101 0]

[quote user="SuperWesIrishWizard"][quote user="Tipster101"][quote user="SuperWesIrishWizard"][quote user="Canary Nut"][quote user="SuperWesIrishWizard"]Thanks for your response Canary Nut......[quote user="Canary Nut"]

SuperWesIrishWizard stated:

 Leeds is supposed to be the financial capital of the north   

---> Manchester may argue about that.     It is a well known fact that Leeds is the leading financial and professional services centre outside of london, that is to say.... it employs 270,000 people in that sector, with many leading financial institutions and large firms being based their. Manchester''s employment demographic dictates that it is the retail capital of the north.

Luton Town went into administration in November 2007, 

---> Interesting situation, what happened to all those transfer fees.....

They claimed it was a reduction in income. Basically, they sold and released good players when they shouldnt (like Norwich) and then didnt take enough income from matches after relegation to pay their existing debts (e.g. loan interest, tax bills) - which would probably also happen to Norwich if relegation became a possibility.

 

Ipswich Town went into administration as the direct result of the collapse of the ITV deal, nobody saved them from administration, the collapse of he deal represented a shortfall in budget of £2m. The same potential shortfall in Norwichs budget.

---> Ipswich were in a far worse situation than you make out, I predicted the Ipswich administration the summer before it happened on their Rivals bb.  The debts were too big to be serviced.

 Ok, granted, they also made some stupid mistakes.... they came down with Finidi George on 30k a week (and seriously crocked) and Matteo Sereni on 40k a week, whilst playing on loan in Italy (with his new club making no wage contribution). So admittedly, their circumstances were worse, but I didnt mind!

I think there is a possibility that Cullum would help, but thats our ONLY hope.

---> Agreed

 Hooray!

What assets? what assets would you sell? 

---> May I suggest you have a look at the working capital on the Balance Sheet as at 31st May 2008.

 The working capital minus £2m taken out by Turners (halfed).....

 

[/quote][/quote]

I knew Leeds was a big financial centre but I am amazed it has/had 270,000 people employed in financial services.

Luton - they were getting some big fees. Wasn''t there a holding company involved....i think you will understand what I am hinting at!

You stated: .....then didnt take enough income from matches after relegation to pay their existing debts (e.g. loan interest, tax bills) - which would probably also happen to Norwich if relegation became a possibility. ''  That  has gone through my mind too. If we got relegated may be we will end up with alot of youngsters in the first team and a big (and it would have to be given a big drop in revenues) drop in the wage bill if other clubs were prepared to take our experienced players off our hands. Most will go but I think we would struggle to offload some, e.g.,Stefanovic (age and wages), Pattison, Cureton (age, wages and cant score this season)

The Turners loan can only be repaid if  one of the following happens (its in one of the notes to the NCFC Accounts to the 31/5/08):

a) Delia & MWJ''s ordinary shareholding falls below a certain %, off the top of my head I thinks its 30% of the issued ordinary shares.

b) We get promoted to The Premiership...whats the chance of that happening this season?!?!

c) Some date way in the future.....2017 ???

 

 

[/quote]I didnt realise that about the Turners loan if I am honest, makes me feel a bit better about the situation......[/quote]

suddenly having knowledge of accounts is important ;). I have to say from a surveyors point of view your argument is 90% factual and good, but from an accountants point of view their is no way NCFC will end up in admin due to the points raised. you see the surveyors point of view uses the one factor, whilst the accountants uses the whole caboodle. [/quote]Moving away from this topic a little...... does it concern you that the club has LSE land which it will probably now make a loss on?As a supporter, not as an accountant..... [/quote]as a supporter... it is disappointing to say the least that they may make a loss, but nearly all business decisions involve a risk and in this case that risk of making a loss might come real, not all decisions made by the board have ended up being bad for the club. It is everyday life in business.

[SuperWesIrishWizard 0]

[quote user="Tipster101"][quote user="SuperWesIrishWizard"][quote user="Tipster101"]Wes, first things first I never patronised you, if you reread it you will see I was joking about exams meaning something, hence the ;)you will then see that you go on to attempt to patronise me in your post by stating I work for a small local firm, when I infact don''t and I work for the 5th largest accounting firm in the UK.You also state incorrectly that i dont know certain aspects of the situation, which in fact I do know. So now thats out of the way...your hypothesis is correct but it does not take into account any other factors merely the ones that support your argument, and you even state the various places money will come from thus destroying the argument that the club will go into administration. NCFC will never be forced into administration by the 2.5m loan recall. There are so many, and i mean SO MANY ways to get round it only a very mediocre businessman/director etc would end up getting the firm into such a position as to be forced to go into administration due to a 2.5m recall. My argument in all this is that NCFC will not go into administration as a result of the 2.5m loan recall, and nothing more. And you seem to think I''m wrong? Do you think the government would force a football club at this time into admin over such a relatively small amount? especially after recent gov announcements that you should know about being in the trade.Do you not think Delia would put in some money to stop the situation in the short term?Do you not think Cullum would stay true to his word and donate the small amount needed to stop your disaster?Do you not think some assets could be sold to stop the situation?Do you really think a small amount of 2.5m will lead to such a large business'' downfall? 

[/quote]

• Leeds went into administration with £35m of debts, and failed to find £10m investment to save them from administrators. Leeds is supposed to be the financial capital of the north and this was prior to the credit crunch. Nobody saved them from administration.

• Luton Town went into administration in November 2007, owing £2.5m in tax. No businessman came forward to them, to the contrary, the consortium that bought them out were told that it was too late to pay the tax bill and avoid administration. The businessmen offered to clear the debt, however they instead got the penalties that leave them bottom of League Two. 

• Ipswich Town went into administration as the direct result of the collapse of the ITV deal, nobody saved them from administration, the collapse of he deal represented a shortfall in budget of £2m. The same potential shortfall in Norwichs budget.

• If Delia was prepared to invest more money, then should would also be willing to reduce her asking price by the appropriate amount.

• I think there is a possibility that Cullum would help, but thats our ONLY hope.

• What assets? what assets would you sell?  The sale of the LSE land at the current value would likely result in a loss of money, not enough to pay the finance for that land, thus we would have to continue repayments on a piece of land that we would then have no rights too. The sale of the very few players who could command a fee would result in relegation.  If we lost David Bell, David Marshall and Sammy Clingan for example, we would just about find the money. It is then of course likely that we would be relegated to League One, and lose that money all over again in lost TV revenues and lost gate reciepts.

• We are NOT a large business. Woolworths is a large business, MFI is a large business, Zavvi is a large business. They are all close to going under. You are clearly not a very good accountant if you believe that the size of a business matters, its return on investment and debt ratios, and we have no return on investment. I think you will find that we are a small - medium size business operating in one location. A private investor is not a hope right now, a fan is our only hope, and the only one with money that we know of is Peter Cullum.

• The government have no say on the matter, unless they change the regulations that relate to every football club in the country. Since Lord Mawhinney claims that up to half of football clubs are close to administration in the next few years, this may result in too much of a risk. There is a limit to government intervention, and the country already has record debt, following borrowings to reduce the tax rate and an investment into the financial markets. The ''government'' is simply employing bankers to run HBOS, to protect the interests of the economy, the housing markets, the employment rates. Football does not come into the parliamentary equation I am afraid. Why save Norwich? Why not the other 6 or 7 clubs to go into administration in the last few months?

• You may work for a big firm, but you are still close minded and typical of too many Norwich fans.

[/quote]sorry just seen this. We most certainly are a big business, anyone with any knowledge on this subject will tell you this. hint the accounts are audited accounts. now look up audit law and see what types of companies need auditing and what constitutes a large company. PS: woolworths and MFI are no longer large companies ;) just a joke to prove i am taking this light heartedly and not getting aggresive and abusive in my post like certain people.[/quote]In case you didn''t see I actually tried to change the subject, since we are boring people....But what the hell does auditing have to do with your comment "Do you really think a small amount of 2.5m will lead to such a large business'' downfall?"My point is that if Woolworths, MFI and even American banks can go bankrupt then so can a relatively small football club.There is no getting away from the fact that, good with figures or not, nobody could ever say that any football club couldnt go bankrupt with a £2.5million shortfall.

[SuperWesIrishWizard 0]

[quote user="Gorleston Jim"]

As someone who knows little about high finance I try to learn from those who do know.

So when we have two groups of self proclaimed experts with such diametrically opposed views I realise I am no wiser and can see why the state of the country is how it is, it seems to me to be purely a matter of personal opinion rather than actual facts.

Only time will tell who is right.

 

 

[/quote]You only have to watch Parliament to know that...... in fact, I thought that people have always had opposite views, and that a constructive argument is in fact what makes the world great.... which is why the academic system requires a critical analysis of the different arguments out there for almost anything....There are even professors that believe global warming is not affected by human activity.....